Rocker Arm Ratio Variation

Indycars

Administrator
Staff member
I thought I understood how the ratio changed as it went thru its rotation, but I'm having a hard time proving so. To keep it simple, lets assume that both push rod seat and the roller/valve contact point lay on the same center-line as the fulcrum. The numbers are from Excel and I'm using the cosine function to calculate the effective length of both sides of the rocker (A1 & B1). Take for example the numbers at 10 degrees rotation.
A1 = Cosine(10) x 0.75"
A1 = 0.7386"

B1 = Cosine(10) x 0.5"
B1 = .4924"

Rocker Ratio (10 degrees) = A1/B1
RR = 0.7386/04924 = 1.5

From what I've been reading, I thought the rocker ratio was suppose to get smaller at this point? I did this on graph paper using 6" to 4" or 1.5:1 ratio, just a much larger scale to double check my math. I got roughly the same answer. Both ends are changing by the same percentage, so the ratio stays the same.

What am I missing???
 

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"To keep it simple, lets assume that both push rod seat and the roller/valve contact point lay on the same center-line as the fulcrum."
that assumptions not correct
its hardly surprising when getting your rocker geometry's a challenge, its not like they make it standard or easy
ERSON,CRANE and CROWER tend to have good consistent dimensions
and some of the off shore imports are a joke in consistancy
comps rockers rocker angles vary a good deal between models, but all can be made to function
rockerangle.jpg

rockerangle1.jpg

rockerangle2.jpg


http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetr ... metry.aspx


valvetrain.gif


your assuming this

SBOilSystem.jpg

oilpassage.jpg


but this is reality (look closely at the angles)
 
Angle A does not equal Angle B





Are you referring to angles A & B or the angle defined by the points CDE???


rockerstudp1.jpg

rockerstudp2.jpg


it should be noted that if the rocker stud protrudes into the port it should be trimmed to the port roof as any threads sticking down into the runner disrupt flow and don,t supply extra support to the rocker stud,and stud threads should use loc-tite tread sealant
 

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Indycars said:
Angle A does not equal Angle B


and the lines of force are not parallel as in this diagram
valvetrain.gif

in a sbc engine, and the arc the tips of the rocker moves thru ,in relation to the true pivot point,at the tips of the rockers center differs as the points move thru those arcs, the rock pivot point remains constant but may not be located inline with the other two points but is lower
Basicgeometry.jpg

Basicgeometry2.jpg

Modifiedgeometry.jpg

valveangles.jpg

read thru these links

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com ... ngeom.html

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0 ... hrods.html

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_0703_ ... index.html

http://www.460ford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141907

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/show ... apter=6176

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/show ... apter=6174

http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/wp- ... shrods.pdf


Are you referring to angles A & B or the angle defined by the points CDE???
 
I had to prove the concepts to myself so that I can understand what's happening. To do this I used Microsoft Viso, which is similar to a CAD program. I was able to draw the components very accurately. I started by building a rocker arm that had an angle thru the fulcrum of 45 degrees and then I rotated it 15 degrees (Red Valvetrain). While the lifter moved 0.423", the valve moved 0.518", for a actual rocker ratio of 1.22:1. At this point I'm thinking its the angle contained in the rocker arm, but as I look longer at this drawing, I'm not so sure now. So I did the next drawing.
I used the same rocker arm as in the drawing above, but this time I setup two push rods at different angles. Moving the both lifters 0.300" the Red System moved the valved an additional 0.147". The effective rocker arm ratio of the green system is 1.1:1, where the ratio for the red system is 1.6:1, just by only changing the approach angle of the push rod. I don't think its the angle contained in the rocker arm but the angle that the push rod/lifter APPROACH the rocker arm.

Comments anyone???
 

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comments?
DAMN I WISH THEY HAD, HAD CAD PROGRAMS, LIKE YOU HAVE USED, WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE ,
I spend many days on a drafting board and using a slide rule to figure out and illustrate things like you've done here.
even had calculators were a rare item, until after I graduated and my lap top has many MANY times the capacity of the campus computer that took up a whole floor on the tech center, back in 1967
 
grumpyvette said:
comments?
DAMN I WISH THEY HAD, HAD CAD PROGRAMS, LIKE YOU HAVE USED, WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE ,
I spend many days on a drafting board and using a slide rule to figure out and illustrate things like you've done here.
even had calculators were a rare item, until after I graduated and my lap top has many MANY times the capacity of the campus computer that took up a whole floor on the tech center, back in 1967
I'm not that much younger than you, the first semester of college I used a slide rule, but that was end of it. I bought a TI calculator that would do square roots for $110.

But back to the point, did I make sense??? Did I make any false statements??? Just remember we only have so much time left to figure it all out before we are gone!!!

I use to know everything, but now that I'm smarter, I know even less!!! So many questions!
 
Indycars said:
grumpyvette said:
comments?
DAMN I WISH THEY HAD, HAD CAD PROGRAMS, LIKE YOU HAVE USED, WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE ,
I spend many days on a drafting board and using a slide rule to figure out and illustrate things like you've done here.
even had calculators were a rare item, until after I graduated and my lap top has many MANY times the capacity of the campus computer that took up a whole floor on the tech center, back in 1967
I'm not that much younger than you, the first semester of college I used a slide rule, but that was end of it. I bought a TI calculator that would do square roots for $110.

But back to the point, did I make sense??? Did I make any false statements??? Just remember we only have so much time left to figure it all out before we are gone!!!

I use to know everything, but now that I'm smarter, the know even less!!! So many questions!
rockerdiagram5.JPG

you seem to have a very good general grasp on the situation, its the difference between the valve stem and push-rod angles on the rocker and the rocker pivot point location below the two rocker ends that effects the results, if they were both parallel its a totally different ball game, than when your having to deal with two separate angles and a different ratio than 1:1
 
you seem to have a very good general grasp on the situation, its the difference between the valve stem and push-rod angles on the rocker and the rocker pivot point location below the two rocker ends that effects the results, if they were both parallel its a totally different ball game, than when your having to deal with two separate angles and a different ratio than 1:1
It's easier to consider ONE aspect of the system at a time, I'm sure there is much more to this than I'm considering.

Do you happen to know ( or approximately ) what these dimensions and angles are for a stock SBC, then I could do a drawing of the real world??? But then there are the after market rocker arms with different dimensions that will change the outcome.
 
Higher Ratio Rocker Arms

by Jim Hand, July 1999

[This article originally appeared on Eric Douthitt's, The Pontiac Garage,
website. It now appears here courtesy of the author and Eric Douthitt.]

What are the overall effects of higher ratio rockers? Do they add stress to the engine? Are they safe to use? Do they add power? What precautions should be considered before installing them? The following is a summary addressing these questions.

The basic valve train consists of a cam, or cam lobe, some sort of cam follower, such as a lifter, a push rod, a rocker arm, and the valve (with the associated retainer/keepers, and valve springs). The cam lobe lift is dictated by the dimension from the base circle of the lobe to the lobe centerline, or peak of the lobe. The base circle must be kept large enough to not degrade the strength of the cam, while allowing for enough lift (in conjunction with the rocker arm) to meet all design goals. Obviously, the peak lift of the lobe cannot be higher then the outer diameter of the cam bearings - otherwise, the cam could not be installed. So, in cam design, as more lift is designed in, the base circle becomes smaller in diameter. As the obtainable lift is limited, the lift is multiplied by the rocker arm ratio to bring it up to the desired point(s). If we used rocker arms that had a 1 to 1 ratio, the valve would follow the exact opening and closing as the cam lobe - same peak lift, same opening and closing rate, and same limited valve open area. By making the rocker some greater ratio, such as the standard 1.5, the lift of the lobe is multiplied by 1.5, the opening and closing rates are much faster, and the area under the overall "curve" is much greater. This becomes very obvious by reviewing the graph.


The cam is rated at some duration at .050 lifter/tappet rise. This of course cannot be changed and will remain the same regardless of the rocker arm ratio. However, the valve lift is normally specified with standard 1.5 ratio rocker arms. This can be changed by installing different ratio rockers. As a 1.65 ratio rocker is 10% higher ratio then a 1.50, the lift provided by the 1.65 rocker will be 10 % greater with all cams. This also can be seen on the attached graph. Note that the graph shows a 1.72 ratio rocker, but the action is similar between various ratios. What happens to valve open time with the higher ratio rockers? Because the higher ratio rocker lifts the valve to a higher point in the same time period, it has to lift both quicker and steeper. As the valve begins to open at the same point regardless of rocker ratio, and it opens at the same time as the cam lobe, the duration of the valve opening in crankshaft degrees at the initial opening and closing points is identical to the cam lobe duration. However, because of the quicker and steeper opening/closing rates, the valve open time is greater from any point after initial opening when a higher ratio rocker is used. This is also obvious on the graph. How much more duration? I devised a method to actually measure it. As a standard lobe measuring point is .050 lifter rise, and lobe lifts are normally specified with 1.5 rocker ratio, that means the valve will always be at .075 when the lobe reaches .050" lift (when a 1.5 rocker is installed). By using the .075 point, and determining where it occurs in relationship to the crank in degrees, a yardstick is provided from which to reference any different rocker ratios. As expected, a higher ratio rocker will allow the valve to reach the .075 lift point earlier in the lift cycle (and later in the closing cycle). As the .075 valve lift point is the industry standard when specifying cam duration (1.5 standard rocker ratio X .050 tappet/lifter rise), it becomes a valid reference point. In the Wolverine 234 degree intake lobe, the intake valve was open 4 to 5 degrees longer when measured in reference to the crank when the larger ratio rockers were used. This is also easy to see on the graph.

Summary:

Higher ratio rocker arms open the valve faster, higher, and hold it open for a much greater total period of time as compared to lower ratio units. Does this cause more stress on the valve train? There will be more pressure on the cam lobes due to the friction and pressure caused by the higher lift and resultant greater spring load. However, as compared to providing the same higher lift and effective longer duration with a more radical cam and even stiffer springs, the higher ratio rockers may create less total valve train stress. And such a cam lobe would be very aggressive and would require much heavier springs to keep the lifter from flying off the lobe. Very radical lobes will also add more side stress on the lifters/bores and could possibly cause lifter bore failure. The added pressure on the studs from either higher ratio rockers, or more radical lobe, will be well within the capabilities of modern after market studs.

Safety:

Some precautions are needed when using higher lift rockers. The valve springs must be able to handle the increased lift. Otherwise, spring bind may occur and that will cause serious engine damage. On very high lift setups, or unusually tight lobe separation or advanced intake lobe cams, valve to piston interference must be checked. As the mechanical aspects of different ratio rockers vary, the position of the push rod in relation to the stud may change. Higher ratio units typically have the push rod depression in closer to the stud, and that may cause interference at the tops of the push rod holes in the heads. This clearance must be checked. Higher lift units may cause interference with the rocker covers. This problem can be handled with extra cover gaskets, cover spacers, or even special covers.

More Power? This is the really big question and the answer varies with different applications. As we know, an engine runs best within a given rpm range with an ideal cam - correct lift, duration, and lobe placement. If we have that ideal and perfect cam installed, higher ratio rockers will not help performance. In most cases, we don't have the ideal cam, and additional lift and/or additional duration might help performance. As it is quite easy to install rockers, providing all safety points mentioned above are met, direct testing can be conducted with any engine. I maintain and have proven to my satisfaction that higher ratio rockers can provide the same benefits as more exotic cams but without the excessive costs. The secret to any engine's performance is to obtain maximum area under the valve open curve with the minimum overlap and mildest valve train action, again assuming the open time occurs at the optimum time. High ratio rockers accomplish that due to their complex effect on the valve train dynamics. If we would compare two cams of equal duration and lobe positions, but one with more lift on the lobe and 1.5 ratio rockers, and the second with less lobe lift but higher ratio rockers to equal the lift of the first, the milder lift cam with higher lift rockers will always provide more performance (again providing the cam is not to large to begin with).
engineanalyzerlift.jpg

Rocker Arm Ratios:

Do not assume rockers are the actual rated lift ratio. Example: My Pontiac 1.5 flat rockers measure an average of 1.48, and a set of original Pontiac 1.65 rockers measure an average of 1.61. A set of 1.6 rated rollers from Jim Butler measured 1.61, and a set of Harland Sharp 1.65 rollers measure 1.75. All of these measurements were made with a lightweight checking spring, and do not represent actual ratio under the normal spring loads of 260 to 600#. We could expect these ratios to diminish as heavier springs are used. The representative from Harland Sharp states that the HS 1.65 Pontiac rollers are "only" 1.70 when measured with a 550# spring load. I suspect my stock push rods would do a real contortionist act with 550# valve springs, but we have to remember that the big rollers require this level of pressure.
 
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