Running at 1500RPMs: What oil pump is needed??

[racprops]

Wonder what everyone thinks of this: True? False? Good idea? Or Bad?

From Don Terrill's Speed Talk thread https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=852

"GM owners found using larger throttle openings at lower RPMs trades to improve fuel economy, found increased main bearing wear.

For fifty years, the SBC pulling a three-speed tranny at 2500+ RPMs never had main bearing issues.

When the lockup/overdrive came along and computer controls allowed pulling near-WOT at 1900 RPMs, the main bearing problems began."

My 383 is being built to run at 1500RPMs and my plan is do that when cruising thanks to a second overdrive transmission.

So I now think a high volume oil pump is called for....plus the resulting higher oil pressure should pump up my Rhoads Lifters sooner...moving their peak from 3500RPMs hopefully to 3000.

 

[Grumpy]

bearing wear is mostly the result of rapidly changing physical loads and lack of oil flow
yes if you run almost excluesively below 3000 rpm, use of a oil like 5W30 and a high volume oil pump will tend to increase bearing life as oil reaches the bearings faster, and flow rates cool better

 

[racprops]

Thanks here I ran into the Hot Ron mind set: Such oil pumps are a good idea for high RPMS and HP.

What about the synthetic oils and the new super oils?

Rich

 

[Grumpy]

it won't hurt to run a high volume oil pump ,
or a standard pressure and volume BBC oil pump on a SBC,
especially in a car/truck, that rarely exceeds 4500 rpm,
other than it may cost you 1-2 peak hp.
yeah the newer oils have advantages but they also cost more and you still need oil/filter changes about every 15 k miles.
swapping to a 7-8 quart baffled oil pan is generally a good idea

Melling M-77 Melling Oil Pumps | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Melling Oil Pumps with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Oil Pumps at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

oil system mods that help

heres a short list REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers ,valves etc. your most important tool, is your ability to think about how things are supposed to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

which oil , what viscosity

now the short answer is that almost any name brand of automotive 10w30 oil can be used in most modern auto engines,but obviously some are going to be better quality than others,THINNER VISCOSITY'S WILL TEND TO FLOW FASTER , ESPECIALLY AT LOWER TEMPS. ID strongly suggest you read thru the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

whats a windage tray do?

"OK GRUMPYVETTE< I have dumb question? What is a windage tray and whats it for?" windage trays don,t provide a huge boost in horse power, the purpose is mostly in providing much improved oil control, thus they can, if properly designed provide a much more consistent oil supply, and enhanced...

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how your oil pumps pressure bye-pass circuit works,

theres seems to be a lot of mis-information about , how the oil pump regulates its pressure curve, and the related subject of shimming oil pump springs and how your oil pumps pressure bye-pass circuit works. PRESSURE, that you see displayed on the oil pressure gauge is a measure of the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Standard Oil Vs Synthetic?

Grumpy, I have already run my engine and used standard oil with Zinc additive. My question is this: I was wondering if it is unwise to change over to synthetic since the break in is already done. I drained the oil after I ran the engine for about an hour, cut the filter apart and it was clean...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Testing High Volume Vs Standard Chevy Oil Pumps

after reading all the posted info , you would more than likely avoid or skip the related links, so I posted them at the beginning so you at least realize, theres much more and useful info available https://www.cpperformance.com/products/Engine_Parts/valve-spring-oiler.htm btw if you don,t want...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[racprops]

And another rabbet hole....

Any one here can help with what 7/8 QT oil pan will fit into a 93 Chevy G20 Van?? The engine is a one piece real seal.

And If I remember correctly I will need a deep oil pump pickup.

And a correct longer dip stick?

Rich

 

[Grumpy]

IN a van, it might be easier to add a good quality OIL COOLER ,and remote oil filters
as that adds 2-3 quarts to the oil available to the engine, making filter changes easier,
and certainly adding engine durability to tow with the van.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15900 $188

remember to accurately measure the area you intend to install any oil cooler,
and leave lots of room for the connecting high pressure oil feed & return lines and access to connect them.

Derale Cooling Products 15850 Derale Atomic-Cool Remote Fan-Mounted Oil Coolers | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Derale Atomic-Cool Remote Fan-Mounted Oil Coolers with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Fluid Coolers at Summit Racing.

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Choosing An Engine Oil Cooler Or Transmission Fluid Cooler

Hi there, So I'm looking for guidance regarding how to choose an engine oil cooler. I don't want to get one too small or I guess too large. I looked through the threads in part of the forum but did not find anything that popped out at me that I could use to help me. Any guidance or references...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[racprops]

That sounds like a better idea. Saves on ALL the extra fuss.

And I already did this:

Plus I tied them into the vans in radiator's coolers, so that they would not run too cold in cold weather and thus would at least run at engine temps.

I disliked the silly oversized turn singles and switch to other lights....this seemed like a good idea.

Rich

PS I like your practical mind set.

 

[racprops]

I do have a dual oil filter rig, will see if I can find a good place for it as well. That pair of oil coolers worked for some 10 years and some 30K miles.

Rich

 

[racprops]

Well, I checked everything I knew about.

But the engine was mostly built when I switched to a 383.

Freeze plugs were 95% done and from what I can see staked.

I do not see any tiny hole if any of the oil galleys plugs and they were not tapped.

I did coat the timing chain, gears and seal with assembly lube.

My understanding a windlage tray is a waste of time and parts for an engine that will never run over 5K…??

Sadly the oil pick up was put onto my stock oil pump. So that will need to be redone.

And sadly we did not any tricks or fixes to the engine other than cleaning and making sure all bearings were aligned correctly and I double checked with plastic gauge all bearings.

So I pray everything will work.

So I hope putting in a high volume pump and pickup will be the only change I need at this point.

So I skimed as much as I could and ran into information over load. Impressed.

So please advise me as to what would you run as your oil pump if you were building the very same engine.

I Can put in a windage tray if it will really help…or a crank scraper??

Here is the oil pan I planed of using:

Thanks for all your help.

Rich

 

[racprops]

OK after all the research I could handle I ordered the NEW Melling Shark Tooth Oil Pump #10552ST with its 10% higher volume and pressure after talking with Dave the Tech support at Melling and also thanks to him ordered the bolt on oil pickup for my 7.1/4" oil pan # 12558.

Now I am Looking for a used 1981 to 1986 Small Block Chevy computer controlled HEI large cap with coil distributor.

 

[Indycars]

What kind of oil pressure are you hoping to achieve ?

 

[racprops]

These pump product about 10% more pressure and volume than their stock pump for a SBC.

Dave of Melling felt that that should cover it very well.

Rich

 

[Grumpy]

you have three rather commonly available sources for decent reasonably priced oil pumps ,
yes I would remove the pressure relief spring temporarily while brazing the pick-up to the oil pump.
Melling,

CHEVROLET Melling 10774 Melling Performance Oil Pumps | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Melling Performance Oil Pumps with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Oil Pumps at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Melling M-77 Melling Oil Pumps | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Melling Oil Pumps with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Oil Pumps at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

milodon
https://www.jegs.com/i/Milodon/697/18732/10002/-1
and
moroso,

CHEVROLET Moroso 22150 Moroso Racing Oil Pumps | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Moroso Racing Oil Pumps with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Oil Pumps at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I generally prefer moroso, or milodon, but all three options will work,
If I was assembling that engine, Id suggest, you want to buy and use a big chevy,
block standard volume and standard pressure oil pump.
obviously you need to verify pick-up to oil an floor clearances ,
and oil pump drive shaft, to the seated distributor shaft ,
clearances during the installation process.


btw oil pump pick-up assembly's vary in depth and tube diameter, from company to company, and year to year,
and where the pick-up is located inside the oil pan,
this is where owning a TIG welder or OXY/ACETOLENE TORCH and having some fabrication skills come into play, you
can and should if its necessary custom modify the oil pump pick-up to get the desired placement and clearances.

read links

installing an oil pump pick-up tube

there's two ways ,...... you can use the correct tool, which is ADVISABLE! use this oil pump(link below) in most stock SBC builds, as it produces a 10% increase in oil volume and standard pressure which is just fine , but obviously check your bearing clearances and oil pump to oil pan floor...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

oil system mods that help

heres a short list REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers ,valves etc. your most important tool, is your ability to think about how things are supposed to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-pump-drive-shafts.123/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ibutors-wont-seat-on-intake.12538/#post-63636

basic info on your v8 lube system

now think it thru, HERES SOME USEFUL INFO, that might help in this thread and the sub links http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/crank-case-blow-bye-and-related-info.16790/ the first thing Id be doing here, if your not getting a strong oil flow at each rocker while your turn...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-pump-drive-shafts.123/#post-19025

shiming a distributor

big2bird posted some of this , on a different thread but it needs to be here also, and I ADDED STUFF YOU NEED TO KNOW For those of you who have one, factory or otherwise, and you have noticed your timing jumps around instead of steady, here is your problem. As you accelerate/decelerate, the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-an-oil-pump-pick-up-tube.1800/#post-43110

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/distributor-gear-wear.1701/#post-4160

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...butor-clamp-that-just-won-t-clamp-firmly.871/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-allows-the-distrib-to-turn-even-tighten.873/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/setting-timing-question.1411/#post-3131

 

[racprops]

Well so far I have not found any standard volume oil pumps other that milling, the other two brands do not seem to make anything not racing....

Or their are out of stock,

So I thing it

Comes down to:

BBC Chevy M77 Oil Pump - Melling
$32.05
80-77 -QualCast
Standard replacement M77 oil pump from Melling for all BBC big block passenger car engines (396 402 427 454),


BBC Chevy M77G Oil Pump - Melling
$33.00
80-77G -QualCast
Standard replacement M77G oil pump from Melling for all BBC big block GM truck engines (366 396 402 427 454 482 502),

"I found this: The "G" in the part number is for a cover gasket, and it probably comes with a slightly stiffer spring due to the (truck series, 60,70, etc.) commercial application. Thanks, Gary in N.Y."

The above was posted in 2005…Note the prices…

True of not??? probably comes with a slightly stiffer spring due to the (truck series, 60,70, etc.) commercial application.

I understand the BBC pump has 12 Teeth pumps, so do they make a little more volume?? I read part of the things you suggest and understand volume IS pressure, and that clearances are critical.

In fact:

OMG Just learned my 383 may have too much clearance on the mains and rods. My memory is that I plastic gauged them and got .004, on all mains and rods. I was sure I checked with the machine shop and was told GOOD. I thought that that was great as all the clearances MATCHED…..

NOW I am told I really need .002....that .004 is TOO LOOSE.

And again a last minute correction. At lease I found out before installing it and blowing it up.

SO I am going to take it apart, take it down to a short block and take it to the machine shop and have THEM fix it. I do not know how long that will take.

I KNOW that I checked with them every step of the way and I KNOW I asked/told Shawn my findings of .004 on ALL the mains and the rods. I was checking with him during assembly over crank case clearance for the crank, and rods....so I am a bit put out that he had the crank turned and did not sell me matching correct bearings....

I can only guess he just was not paying attention when he did not stop me say that needs fixing. I think the virus was distracting him a lot.cIt was during the first year of it that all of this was done.

First I need them to check the piston to deck height and then check both banks if they are square.

I need to know the final piston to deck height.

Then to take it apart and clean all the assembly lube off so it can be checked over.

Then to check and fix: piston to bore clearance, if needed, rod bearings and main bearing clearance and end play, if needed and once corrected reassemble it.

Rich

Feedback please.

 

[Grumpy]

a standard BBC oil pump provides about the same volume of oil as a high volume SBC oil pump, but having 12 vs 7 gear teeth at a smoother more consistent pressure and flow rate.
you certainly don't need a high volume BBC oil pump, but it won't hurt anything on an engine that spends 90% of its time operating below 3000 rpm.
yeah get your bearing clearances closer to the suggested 2-2.6 thousands

 

[racprops]

"a standard BBC oil pump provides about the same volume of oil as a high volume SBC oil pump, but having 12 vs 7 gear teeth at a smoother more consistent pressure and flow rate."

GREAT all in one and for around $60.00 and have what I wanted to boot THANKS.

And I will check for a good fit between the pump and a distributor, I take it I want a SBC drive shaft?

"you certainly don't need a high volume BBC oil pump, but it won't hurt anything on an engine that spends 90% of its time operating below 3000 rpm." Yes over kill...

What about a good pickup???

" yeah get your bearing clearances closer to the suggested 2-2.6 thousands"

Yes I know now....I trusted the shop that had the 400 crank machined/ground down for the 350 block to sell me the correct bearings...

And yes I know I needed to check them which I did with plastic gauge, and I THEN checked with the shop with my findings and was TOLD they were good....I though .004 was good for a low RPM street motor.

I have not done more that a Studebaker 289 in 1966, a TR4 in 1973, and OLDS403 in 2001, and this 383 now.

ALL the rest when I needed a engine I either swapped in a good USED factory one from a junk yard OR replaced the whole car.

Rich

 

[Grumpy]

youll need to read the linked info,
I posted earlier, heres
the specific link and some related info concerning the correct oil pump drive and
how to go about selecting the one with the correct length/ clearances, checking clearance etc.

shiming a distributor

big2bird posted some of this , on a different thread but it needs to be here also, and I ADDED STUFF YOU NEED TO KNOW For those of you who have one, factory or otherwise, and you have noticed your timing jumps around instead of steady, here is your problem. As you accelerate/decelerate, the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

oil pump drive shafts

I was asked recently, as to my best guess, as to why a recently installed oil pump was making noise, oil pumps rarely make much noise, unless, the drive shaft driving the oil pump, is rubbing on the block which will happen if you install a standard drive shaft in a 400 type small block which...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[racprops]

OK I will do my home work.

Suggestions for the pickup??

Rich

 

[Grumpy]

"Suggestions for the pickup??"
oil pump pick-up made by the same company that built the oil pump and that FITS the oil pan your using

Proform Parts 66480 Proform Oil Pump Pickup Driver Tools | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Proform Oil Pump Pickup Driver Tools with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Oil Pump Pickup Tube Driver Tools at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

installing an oil pump pick-up tube

there's two ways ,...... you can use the correct tool, which is ADVISABLE! use this oil pump(link below) in most stock SBC builds, as it produces a 10% increase in oil volume and standard pressure which is just fine , but obviously check your bearing clearances and oil pump to oil pan floor...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

keep in mind the oil pump pressure relief spring has ZERO effect on oil pressure other that to limit the peak pressure, it has zero effect on pressure vs rpm until PEAK oil pressure is exceeded, when the pressure is limited by the pumps routing high pressure oil back to the intake side of the oil pump

 

[racprops]

OK I gave up guessing and as I cannot find my notes, after all I really thought I was done...so I tore the 383 apart and it is now getting checked for clearances.

For fun I tried checking the piston to deck height and got .004.

The shop will give me their official reading of the piston to deck height.

And for the bearings and piston to cylinder clearance and if there is any problems, and size the bearings so it has the .0026 clearances and then reassemble it.

I figured I did not have the correct tools nor the experience using them and figured it would cost me almost as much to buy the tools to do the job and I would still worry if I did it right.

Once I get the reassembled short block I will re-figure compression rate, static and dymantic and what head gasket to use and get it ready to put into the van.

Onward.

Rich