selecting a handgun for hunting hogs, deer,ELK

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
I was recently at a local bass pro shops just to browse, the new hand gun selections and be shocked at the prices,
, while there, a guy comes up too the counter and says too the sales guy,
that he wants to purchase a powerful handgun, to hunt hogs with.
because on his first hog hunt he used a 45-acp commander and was less than impressed, as it took him 4 shots to kill a 220 lb hog.

handguns that are known to be good for personal self defence use, may mot be ideal for hunting applications
the clerk without asking a single question about the range the hog was shot at, where the bullets hit,
or any other info, reaches for a 500 S&W that costs $1475, AND UP,
\and AMMO is very expensive if you don't reload and cast bullets yourself
the guy looking too buy the hog hunting handgun says ,

that is a lot more expensive than he had hoped to pay,
and far too large to holster comfortably,
but he did ask about the ammo cost, the clerk, ignoring the question, just reaches for a taurus, revolver
I've seen several elk killed with handguns and
a 41 mag or 44 mag will get the job done very well, with proper shot placement, power is NOT as important as proper shot placement and selecting a bullet that will penetrate deeply, and expand consistently and dependably.

now the more power full revolvers certainly hit harder but theres a trade-off in far more recoil and increased ammo expense, that may reduce your ability to practice enough to become proficient and consistently accurate under field conditions.
http://www.biggamehunt.net/articles/beginners-guide-big-game-handgun-hunting
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_hunt_121305/
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just a point worth knowing, a 8" barrel, 357 mag revolver loaded with hard cast bullets,
like the 175 grain bullet like the NEI design above over a stiff load of h110,
or 2400 powder is remarkably effective.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#357mag

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
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keep in mind the PROJECTILE DESIGN IS CRITICAL as it does ALL THE WORK, and SHOT PLACEMENT is CRITICAL, simply because the projectile can't be effective if not placed where it can do the most damage.
you must also select a projectile designed to maximize results on its intended target thus you must know the intended targets anatomy and where the vitals are located internally, a bullet designed break bone and penetrate to the vitals on a large bear will zip through a human opponent, causing less than ideal internal damage, a bullet designed to max internal damage on a human opponent might expand far to rapidly on a BEAR! to ever reach the vitals!
HIS REVOLVER IS VERY SIMILAR TO THIS PICTURE
If your not a fan of a handgun that recoils very much, this NEI cast bullet over 13 grains of H110 powder has been a very effective combo in my brother in laws no longer made dan wesson 8" 357 mag revolver
shot placement is critical but the bullets shoot through and exit on every hog shot so far. ranges tend to be under 40 yards, bullets are cast from 95% WW allow and 5% pure tin
yes you might think a 44 mag would be more effective but its shot placement more than power thats the critical factor and with bullets punching through and exiting, lack of power is not an issue

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun




44mag305gr1350fps.jpg

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-hunting-revolver-should-concentrate-on.3744/

http://www.petersenshunting.com/gear-accessories/ultimate-hunting-handgun-test/

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=234&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=

http://www.rmef.org/TheHunt/During/PistolPackin.aspx

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ounger-guy-how-to-hunt-with-a-revolver.14205/

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns.htm

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ns-power-accuracy-effective-range-cost.13280/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ment-that-makes-the-hand-gun-effective.14258/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ounger-guy-how-to-hunt-with-a-revolver.14205/

http://www.petersenshunting.com/gear-accessories/ultimate-hunting-handgun-test/

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...do-i-need-here-for-a-500-s-w-reloading.11917/


deeranatomyg.jpg


glock 20/10mm with aftermarket barrel for more effective cast bullet use/accuracy

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keep in mind both archery and revolvers kill due too having the ability of punching holes in vital organs and tissue destruction , not due to the energy levels, an archery broad-head thrown from most bows will have less than 100 ft lbs of energy but it can slice through and exit an elks chest destroying vital organs as it zips through, a handgun like a 44 mag will not have even 1/2 the energy or velocity that the typical 308 win or 270 win deer rifle has yet it can also punch through both sides of an elks chest and exit destroying vital organs as it passes through.
its up to the hunter to know his games anatomy and have the skills developed through constant practice to use his chosen weapon effectively

if you can find one of the only 2500 of these 44 mag revolvers pictured below,
at a decent price buy it, its sure to go up in price

JPYvkNQ.jpg


and yes thats a 44 mag with 300 grain bullets, not a larger caliber, as always shot placement is critical and a 44 properly loaded has plenty of power
don,t get mesmerized by claims of high velocity from custom ammo or handloads, listed on the internet, the load below has killed several elk, and a truck load of deer and hogs over decades.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690227/6-cavity-mold-c430-310-rf
Ive loaded a hard cast 300-310 grain lyman or LEE gas check bullet over 20-21 grains of H110 powder in my 44 mag for decades , (start with 19 grains and work up a 1/2 grain at a time ) it shoots clear thru most hogs and deer exiting and still going strong so be aware you don,t want to shoot a deer with a second deer directly behind the first.http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000152660650
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690227/6-cavity-mold-c430-310-rf
Ive found 20 grains of h110 under this 300 grain lyman bullet (cast from 5% pure tin and 95% wheel weights)is a good combo, in my 44 revolvers, it consistently shoots clear thru deer and hogs.
you don,t need more power than this combo provides on any deer or elk if you can shoot accurately, Ive hit and killed deer and hogs out in the 80-120 yard range very effectively, now I,m not saying a 500 S&W doesn,t hit harder, but this is a bit like discussing if a 30/06 or a 458 mag kills elk better, there comes a point where more power is far less important than proper shot placement
when selecting a hunting handgun and caliber you'll want to consider options that will allow you to effectively drop game from the longest distance , and at the least favorable angles your likely to encounter , and get full penetration at those ranges and angles, this requires some thought on the part of the hunter into what firearm he can reasonably use to consistently get reasonably small and consistent group sizes and research into what bullet will get the job done consistently.
Exactly where you place your shot and a good knowledge of the games anatomy is critical to success with a handgun.
A balance needs to be found between power and the hunters ability to consistently use the revolver accurately and something that has a recoil level ,and ammo cost low enough that it makes practice something he will do frequently rather than avoid, and keep in mind the bullet does ALL the work, no hand held pistol or revolvers going to knock an elk or big bear on his butt, but you can darn sure break bones and destroy vital organs with the proper shot placement and the correct bullet choice, if you can shoot accurately and know the games anatomy.
IT's the combo of that proper bullet choice and accurate shot placement that causes game to drop quickly!

I have several hunting friends that have purchased the S&W 460 AND 500 MAG REVOLVERS, there are very nice revolvers but they are large, heavy and expensive to shoot and once the new-ness ,novelty of ownership, had worn off, I grin when I see them revert to the 44 and 41 mag revolvers they had used for decades , which get the job done effectively at lower cost and effort.
If your interested in hunting with a larger caliber hand gun I'm forced from long experience too point out that handgun hunting is rather similar to archery in that ranges tend to be rather short compared to what can easily be accomplished with a decent deer rifle , most kills will be at under 100 yards and very few game animals will drop on bullet impact regardless of the caliber you select.
most even well hit deer or elk will run a short distance before falling, and it should be obvious that exact shot placement and a good knowledge of the games anatomy is critical to success.
you really should limit shots to the distance you can CONSISTENTLY place 3 consecutive shots fired from field positions into a 6" diameter paper plate.
I can't begin too tell you how many guys I see that can,t consistently hit a 6" paper plate at 75-100 yards with a 357 mag or 44 mag that go out and I see them show up at the range with a 454 cassull , or even a 500 S&W , which is very often the reason you see those revolvers on sale used for discount prices,
once it dawns on the new owner, that they compounded the problem, they were having with the 357 mag , 41 mag,or 44 mag the by adding, additional recoil and muzzle blast.
now I'd be the last guy to tell you a good quality revolver chambered for, 445 DWSM. 454 casull, 480 ruger, 460 S&W or 500 S&W , does not hit harder or give some advantages in more power and penetration,
(PROVIDED the correct bullets are used)over a more common, 41 mag or 44 mag, revolver, but I've seen both of those caliber revolvers kill a great many deer and a few elk.

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... pe=Handgun

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0000690227

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerhead.html

again the guy asked about ammo cost and availability and he was again ignored, I started asking the guy about his hunt, where he hit the hog , how far away, it was, the ammo he used etc, trying to get some idea as to the conditions under which he had shot the hog, I found that as usual the shot placement was not ideal (IT RARELY IS ON MOVING TARGETS FIRED AT BY EXCITED FIRST TIME HUNTERS) and ranges were well under 20 yards,
I suggested the guy purchase a 6.5" -8 3/8" 44mag S&W revolver that was listed as $749 on the display, as it was one of the few stainless 44 mag double action revolvers in 44 mag on display for under $1000 and buy some double tap 300 grain ammo, and assured him that if he placed his shots carefully that would be fully adequate on any hogs as ID shot well over 3 dozen or more with a similar combo in the last 40 years,and most had required only one hit

the 44 mag silhouette with adjustable front site and 10 5/8" barrel
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YES IT REQUIRES a shoulder holster to use comfortably
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don,t get hung up on velocity just get the most accurate load
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it may not be popular but its incredibly accurate and I know a few dozen deer and hogs and an a couple elk regretted its introduction
the front sites got four independently adjustable heights allowing you to accurately zero the pistol at four different ranges each of the 4 front site positions on the 10 5/8" barrel S&W is INDIVIDUALLY adjustable and the front site height can be almost instantly swapped by spinning a selector wheel in the site base
Ive got mine set on
50 yards
100 yards
150 yards
200 yards
once you site in, its dead on at the range selected, I generally leave it set at 100 yards, its close enough to be used in 90% of my shots set like that

btw
you can get really close by sighting in to hit 1.5" high at 25 yards =100 yard zero
you can get really close by sighting in to hit 3.2" high at 25 yards =150 yard zero
you can get really close by sighting in to hit 5.3" high at 25 yards =200 yard zero

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/506726 ... -gas-check

Use 95% WW alloy and 5% pure tin by volume
20 grains of H110 and this lyman 300 grain , or LEE 310 grain, cast bullet ,seated just shy of cylinder length and crimp firmly


READ THIS LINKED THREAD

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/
Colorado requires 550 foot pounds at 50 yards. Which the 44 mag has.
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
I used a 21 grain charge of H110 under a LEE 310 grain hard cast 44 cal. bullet seated out to the lower crimp groove

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...cf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
MOLD DC C 430-310-RF
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http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...angId=-1&parent_category_rn=15706&isFirearm=Y



lee310v.jpg

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http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0000690227
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_35&products_id=155


it was rather obvious that the clerk was not happy with my advice as he acted like he worked on commission and he could care less what worked as long as it was expensive, he kept muttering something about the 454 cassul and 500 S&W would be better for hunting grizzles in Alaska...
I assure the guy that the 44 mag was 100% capable of shooting clear thru hogs and dropping them very effectively with the ammo suggested , then I walked away, I don,t know if he purchased the 44 mag but in my opinion it was a far better choice for the application

Each of us has our own tolerance level, I have zero problem with the 44 mag throwing a 240 grain at 1400fps or 445 dan wesson super mag, throwing a 300 rain at 1500fps, in consistently hitting a 6 inch paper plate from a sitting position, at 100 yards at the range, but I can,t see any use for the 500 S&W, as its just at or maybe, beyond my personal limits on what can be fired fast and accurately out at 50-120 yards, where most hand gun revolver hunting seems to be in my experience.
now the 445 DWSM is almost as large and heavy as the S&W 500
but theres just enough difference to make the 445 DWSM useable ,
where the S&W 500 is a bit more of a good thing that I can easily tolerate.
I've posted before about hunting elk with some pistol caliber cartridges and you always get people telling you its not adequate, yet I know of several killed very dead with 44 mag hand guns , some out at 70-120 yards so its rather obvious that a fatal wound is more about shot placement than energy levels

when using a hand gun as a primary hunting revolver,I generally hunt with either a 44 mag with 300 grain hard cast pushed to about 1300fps or a 445 DWSM pushing the same bullets to 1450 fps

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=1864

either punches cleanly thru hogs and deer , I can,t see where your gaining much with more power once the bullet exits the game it passed thru, and I loaded the same ammo for several friends and they have killed ELK and even feral cattle with a hand gun using that ammo, I will point out that bullets with a round nose don,t seem to cause nearly the same damage as a wide melplat

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bullets like this above are more effective than,like this below
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people new to hunting always seem to ask about barrel length, and if a 44 mag has the power required to be effective, you want to keep in mind a hunting revolver is now designed for concealed carry use and a shoulder holster makes it far easier to carry than any hip holster, Ive used a handgun a great deal for hunting white tail deer and hogs and Id strongly suggest a 7.5" or longer barrel for best 100 yard accuracy, Im not saying a 4"- 5.5" barrel can,t be accurate,in the hands of a skilled experienced shot, but in my experience its far from ideal, the longer barrel site radias DOES help, and longer barrels tend to give higher velocity.
I found a 6.5" was the minimum I could use and hit consistently, at longer ranges, maybe my old eyes but, its a good deal easier to hit with the 8.375"-10" revolvers in my experience. a properly loaded 44 mag with a 280-310 grain hard cast bullet with a wide melplat (front nose) will easily kill any game in north America with properly placed shots , youll need to experiment, to find what loads and bullets work best for you, but something in that 280-310 grain weight range over a charge of 20-21 grains of H110 has worked great for decades for me!
get a good shoulder holster and I found large custom soft leather shoulder pads on the harness and counter balancing the weight a bit with a knife sheath on the opposite side of the harness helps. your hunting not in combat so you don,t need a great deal of extra ammo I rarely carry more than what fits on a few belt slide sleeves

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/463229 ... ylon-black

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/640356 ... ylon-black

29%20S&W.jpg

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IVE USED A 10 5/8" SMITH 44 FOR ABOUT 27 YEARS NOW, ( I bought it around 1984 if I remember correctly) LOADED WITH 300 GRAIN CAST AND 20 GRAINS OF h110 , ITS EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AND ACCURATE, BUT ITS SHOULDER HOLSTER TIME AND ITS NOT SOMETHING YOU CARRY OTHER THAN AS A PRIMARY HUNTING REVOLVER, WHEN YOU GET TO MY AGE HAVING A LONGER SIGHT RADIAS HELPS SEE THE SIGHTS BETTER
each of the 4 front site positions on the 10 5/8" barrel S&W is INDIVIDUALLY adjustable and the front site height can be almost instantly swapped by spinning a selector wheel in the site base
Ive got mine set on
50 yards
100 yards
150 yards
200 yards
once you site in, its dead on at the range selected, I generally leave it set at 100 yards, its close enough to be used in 90% of my shots set like that
44traj.jpg


A little over 20 years ago the American Rifleman staff did a test using a 44 Magnum revolver equipped with a 18" barrel that was shortened in one inch increments. Five shots were fired at each barrel length, with each of the three brands of factory loads, Federal, Winchester and Remington, all using 240 gn bullets. The instrumental velocities shown are the averages obtained, after smoothing the data to remove the effects of random variations in velocity and thus to represent the incremental velocity changes more accurately.

1" 742 FPS
2" 935
3" 1067
4" 1165
5" 1239
6" 1298
7" 1345
8" 1384
9" 1417
10" 1445
11" 1469
12" 1490
13" 1508
14" 1525
15" 1539
16" 1552
17" 1564
18" 1575
If your familiar with hunting with a revolver, it sure looks like anything under 6" in barrel length,
is costing you significant velocity in a 44 mag, and that the 8"-10" is letting you get significantly better velocity and a longer sight radius,
something you might not need in a defensive concealed carry revolver application, but certainly helpful if hunting larger game, especially with heavy for caliber hard cast bullets

btw
you can get really close by sighting in to hit 1.5" high at 25 yards =100 yard zero
you can get really close by sighting in to hit 3.2" high at 25 yards =150 yard zero
you can get really close by sighting in to hit 5.3" high at 25 yards =200 yard zero

then make fine adjustments required at exact range if necessary

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/645810 ... e-110-volt

basic cheap melter

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/698819 ... llet-molds
mold handles

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

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properly sized to about 1 thousandth over your bore size , cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin and lubed, with hornady gas checks crimped in place,these NEI bullets are very accurate
load a 310 grain lee cast 44 caliber bullet over 21 grains of H110 , size .430 , cast from 95% ww alloy and 5% tin
that has been my almost exclusively used load, in my S&W 29, for the last 15 plus years and it flat works, use a firm crimp, seat out to near max length that the cylinder allows and PRACTICE!!

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417 ... -gas-check
the 280grain to 310 grain 44 caliber bullets seem to give the best results i generally use the (A & B) designs
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before you select a load and caliber and pistol, it should be obvious that you'll need to check the hunting regulations in the state you intend to hunt in and for the game you intend to hunt!
some states like colorado have caliber, barrel length and minimum retained energy at listed ranges ,
deer-anatomyghkl.jpg

COLORADO
At a minimum, it must have a four-inch barrel, fire an expanding bullet of .24 caliber (6 mm) or larger and use a load that produces a minimum 550 ft. pounds of energy at 50 yards.

that will eliminate use of many common handgun calibers

Re: selecting a handgun for hunting hogs


I was talking to one of my hunting buddies about this, experience at that gun shop counter and he laughed at the idea a 44 mag with decent ammo would not be fully adequate on any hogs, he handloads hard cast 310 grain lee bullets over a max load of 296 powder, in his ruger single action with a 10" barrel, and hes never recovered a bullet to date
don,t get into the mental trap of thinking you need absolute maximum loads in that 44 mag either, a 280-300grain hard cast at 1200fps will kill any elk if the shots placed properly, concentrate on finding an accurate load and getting in the required FIELD practice not just shooting off a bench
keep in mind bullet design and alloy are critical, you want an accurate bullet that won,t lead the bore but you also want a wide melplat (NOSE) and an alloy soft enough to expand at least marginally
revlorcart.jpg

L - R
357 Mag
44 Mag
45 Colt
480 Ruger
475 Linebaugh
500 Linebaugh


just keep in mind as caliber and power increase so does recoil, and a 357 mag or 44 mag has been used to kill darn near everything that walks at one time, or another, its shot placement thats most critical, now a 357 would not be my choice to stop a charging bear, but if you place the shot correctly with the correct ammo it will work, the 44 mag-454 cassull offer enough power to get the job done consistently with proper shot placement, the 480 ruger and 445 DWSM also add even more power, and a well practiced user with a 460 or 500 S&W certainly has more than enough power available, but again its shot placement thats critical
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=806&return=Y

either cartridge is a shorter range proposition, compared to some other choices like a 30/06, in a good accurate rifle, but Ive seen two elk killed with a 44 handgun while I was with hunters , using revolvers, and Ive seen several more brought into camp killed with handguns and hard cast 44 caliber 300 grain bullets, one guy used a LEE 310 grain, bullet one guy used a LYMAN, 300 grain,design, both ELK ran a short distance and died, one was lung shot one was heart/lung shot distances were about 60 and 110 yards
the 44 mag is certainly capable if the shooter has the skills to place the shot well.

hog-hunt4.jpg

I.ve also used a 357 mag revolver and a 10mm glock
but I can assure you while both work,
and are 100 percent lethal if you can place shots accurately,
they don,t hit as hard as the 44 mag,
(WHICH GETS THE JOB DONE VERY NICELY,)
and
while you certainly don,t need a,
480 ruger
,445 DWSM
,
454 cassul
460 S&W
,or

500 S&W revolver,
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus_500.htm

all those CALIBER choices pack even more stopping power,
so if you can handle a bigger revolver they are an option,
YOU MIGHT CARE TO LOOK AT

pistolpen.png

above a chart obtained by shooting factory hollow point ammo into
a pressure treated rail road tie ,
hard cast lead alloy bullets cast from 95% lead and 5% tin generally penetrate deeper, even the better hard cast 357 mag 170 grain bullets tend to exit the far side of hogs I've shot and a 44 mag loaded with 310 hard cast almost always will.

293ss&w.jpg


larger caliber revolvers pushing 250-450 grain hard cast bullets in 44-50 caliber, pushed to 1300-1700 fps or more,
tend too penetrate very effectively at common hand gun ranges.
suggested bullet weights

357 mag= 158 grain-180 grain
41 mag= 220 grain-250 grain
44 mag= 270 grain-320 grain
45 caliber -300 grain-350 grain
480 caliber 350 grain-400 grain
50 caliber 400 grain-480 grain
don,t think a 357 mag can,t be effective, it is,
but its not in the same class as the larger magnums
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/

http://www.grumpysperformance.com/july2017/deeranatomyg.jpg
I would strongly suggest selecting a 6"-10" barrel pistol or revolver for any serious hunting application to maximize velocity and to provide a good sight radias.
keep in mind only precisely placed hits and a good knowledge, of the games anatomy, will work well, and hard cast bullets of close too ideal weight range , and ideally pushed to about 1300 fps-1700 fps work the best as velocity's much higher tend to reduce penetration, by inducing too rapid expansion.

http://www.ballistics101.com/357_magnum.php
(while certainly not a power house choice, Or something Id recommend),
in the hands of a skilled hunter I has taken about everything in north America at one time or another)
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/10mm.php
(not bad for a compact auto pistol used for hunting and with proper hand loads certainly useful)
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=10 mm&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/41_magnum.php
(great choice if recoil bothers you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=41 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/44_magnum.php
(without doubt the least expensive and most effective choice for most people)
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/454_casull.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=454 Casull&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.ballistics101.com/460_sw.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=460 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/480_ruger.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.ballistics101.com/500_sw.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


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ignoring the linked info is never smart
http://www.realguns.com/calculators/sectionaldensity.html


http://handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/The+Effects+Of+The+Meplat+On+Terminal+Ballistics.html

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ectively-handle-a-larger-bore-revolver.12784/
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/24/a ... ag_081005/

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/506726 ... -gas-check

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0152660650

Id try 20 grains of H110 and this bullet cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin or Linotype alloy its worked well, but practice until you can place all shots in a 6" paper plate at 100 yards and I would not exceed that range by much in the field, I loaded the guys ammo so I know what was used, both guys were a bit worried at the cartridge performance on ELK before but not after seeing the results.

btw not that it matters but the guy that shot the 110 yard elk used a ruger 10" barrel single action
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and the shorter range elk was dropped with a 8 3/8" s&w 29

almost everything you do is a compromise in some way, handgun hunting requires you to balance the power that you can handle consistently while maintaining reasonable accuracy that you can obtain under field conditions, over a reasonable range for the game your hunting, in most cases that's limited to a bit more than most people would consider effective archery ranges or well under about 70 yards for most hunters using a powerful revolver or auto pistol on deer or other big game with iron sights. mostly that's the result of the average guys ability to accurately place his shots under those field conditions and the targets tendency to move, and not present a decent target angle.
now after hunting with a handgun for many years Id suggest that a 6"-10" barrel length in your average hunting revolver is a distinct advantage as to sight radias, and that recoil levels and required power and bullet weight place the lower power limits near the 357mag and 10mm auto calibers, and the 44mag,480 ruger and 445 dan wesson super mag and 454 cassul as reasonable upper limits for guys just getting started in the sport, the 460 and 500 S&W both exhibit a bit more recoil and pistol weight than most beginners can effectively master , and starting out with one is likely to quickly sour beginners on the experience of hunting with a handgun, not that those calibers don,t do a good job in skilled hands , but you won,t get nearly the required practice due to ammo cost and recoil levels as a beginner with one.
your effective range is fairly easy to test, its the range you can always place your first and second quick shot into a 6" paper plate from an un-supported stance, because although you may get a decent rest in the field you can,t count on that

hard cast bullets are "NOT SOLIDS" but they are very slow expending and as such the, high weight retention and limited frontal area tends to allow much deeper penetration,its rare for me to find fired slugs as most exit,but judging from a few I do see, my 44 slugs rarely expand to more than 50 cal. or lose weight while a common hollow point can loose 40%-70% of its weight and expand to over 80 cal.
cast your alloy from 5% tin and 95% wheel weight mix and youll seldom have accuracy or performance issues if you place shots well and know game anatomy


once you get into seriously hunting with a handgun you start casting bullets you'll usually find that correctly designed hand loads, with bullets designed for the application and matching alloys, and bullet weights have a huge advantage over most factory loads

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0152660650

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0000690227

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

429-270-gc.jpg

015-2660650.jpg

429-290-pb.jpg

006-90227.jpg



http://www.midwayusa.com/product/506726 ... -gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417 ... -gas-check

either of these bullets sized .430 and lubed correctly works very effectively on deer & hogs if loaded over 20 gains of h110 and cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% pure tin and cast hot enough to look partly frosted, then dropped in a 5 gallon bucket of water.
Ive done that for years
LOOK THRU THIS LINK
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh ... .tests.asp

If you have a 357 mag ,Id look at BLUE DOT, Ive run many pounds of that thru my 357 revolver and marlin carbine with good results

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 1378120179

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun
 
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Re: selecting a handgun for hunting hogs
S&W 1006 10mm
f2f7.jpg

H4371-L238736024.jpg

as always do the math and test your reloads,
for accuracy and flawless function,:rolleyes::rolleyes:
if you graph out velocity vs bullet weight and test penetration,
and calculate energy potentially delivered to the target,
you want something in the 180 grain-220 grain weight range

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/401/403-198-wfn-y1/403-198-wfn-y1-4-cavity-gc/

commercial ammo
https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-220-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose.html

https://doubletapammo.com/products/10mm-230gr-hardcast-solid-a-20rds

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https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...in-hard-cast-flat-nose?variant=18785725055033

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=125_178&product_id=597

http://dougdavisent.com/safety/revolver.html

theres no question that a 500 mag hits almost twice as hard as a 44 mag and delivers massive impact energy,
one has to respect that, and you can,t deny or ignore the physics.
if your confronting something at longer range or an animal that can be violent, theres zero question the 500 mag has serious advantages ,
if the person using the handgun can use it accurately with its weight and significant recoil.
but a 357 mag or a 10mm has proven to be lethal on deer and hogs countless times here in florida

smithandweson500.jpg

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/?...&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
I doubt anyone's questioning that or would try to pretend its not a great deal more powerful than the 44 mag.
I'm simply pointing out that for almost 5 decades I've rarely had a bullet from any of my 44 mag or 445 DWSM revolvers,
fail to exit a deer or hog, I've shot regardless of the range or impact point


my 44 mag revolver is the longer barrel version
29-3SilhouetteLeftSide.jpg

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


Ive also used and own a 10" dan wesson 445 super mag
21716c.bmp.jpg

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

that being stated , once you can with your revolver and cartridge of choice,
consistently punch through the intended game at any reasonable range and angle and have consistent bullet exits.
like can be done with a hard cast 300-310 grain, 44 mag on deer and most hogs I don,t see having more power as a big advantage.
now if you step up to Elk, the 445 DWSM has a noticeable range advantage as you gained about 300 fps with the identical bullets.
if I was contemplating going up against something like lion, or large bear, than the S&W 450 or S&W 500 mag, if the correct projectile is used,
is simply a better choice without ANY question
Over 5 decades there have been several factors that I have and many other people eventually do come to realize have a rather obvious effect on your success, rates.
if you were to compare the modern hunters gear and easy availability to the related tools of the trade to the early mountain men, the current advantages are remarkable.
the availability of knowledge from sources like the RMEF https://www.rmef.org/ and buying a few reference books, and videos, won,t hurt one bit!

and access to video instructive classes , and related hunting related equipment, that are currently available would astound hunters in the pre WWII era.

(1) hunting out of state on a regular consistent year to year basis is and continues to be an expensive hobby,
thats only getting more expensive, over the decades as fees and licence costs, travel related expenses have consistently increased over the years.
too get more out of the experience it helps to do your research on the area you intend to hunt,
and its going to be rather difficult to function in the higher altitudes for most people,
so take the time and effort to get into much better physical condition,
no mater what condition you think your in, the lack of oxygen at higher altitudes will effect you.



(2) the definition of insanity is doing things the same way year after year, getting the same results over and over again,
yet each time expecting to get a totally different result, simple things like keeping in reasonably consistent, month too month contact, all year long,
with the area biologist and game warden, increases your odds significantly. learn the guys name, send him or her a box of a dozen donuts or if its a girl
flowers along with a short request for your preferred hunt area tips.and related knowledge, will generally pay off in increasing your success on trips.
no one person knows everything, about hunting , your game or area, thus taking advantage of the knowledge,
and experience held by many skilled, other people gives you a huge advantage

(3) even a blind squirrel occasionally finds the occasional acorn.
(if your only seeing elk and mule deer occasionally your not taking full advantage of the knowledge available)

(4) your personal attitude, YOUR having dogged ,persistence (having masochistic tendency's)
and taking the effort year around, of your physical conditioning does mater.


(5) if your not consistently successful, year after year you might want to consider looking at your potential options,
and analyze how you might improve. wondering aimlessly is seldom productive ,
learn to use topo maps GPS, and read up on the game, what it eats where it beds etc.

(6) doing your research carefully you will have a significant advantage over joe average,
that simply drives out too the area , parks and starts randomly wondering the area.

(7) having several experienced and previously and
consistently successful mentors, ups your odds of success substantially.

(8) you do have lots of current options that modern technology , has given us, that were not nearly as easily accessed in past years,
accurate topo maps,
satellite photos,
accurate and semi reasonably priced, hand held, GPS,
greatly improved optics,
more durable and accurate rifles and ammo,
far better quality thermally efficient and moisture resistant yet breathable clothing
access to local biologist and game department data banks
lazer range finders
infrared vision enhancement.
much improved camping, back packs, sleeping bags,tents and edged weapon quality.

(9) game processing and meat transport, and meat preservation knowledge and your access to it at a reasonable price is currently a huge leap upward, in tech from decades ago.


(10)
most guys I have hunted with would initially have struggled a great deal to rapidly and consistently,
drop into a sitting, kneeling or standing position and rapidly place a shot into a 3" orange dot at 100 yards
learning that shooting from field positions, using a sling and a decent bi-pod and frequent practice can improve your chances,
of making an accurate shot by easily 200%-500% , familiarity with shooting accurately from field positions
does vastly improve your odds. shooting skeet improves your odds on hitting a rapidly moving close range deer or elk in the typical aspen/conifer.


(11) the combo of accurate topo maps and a GPS potentially allows you to find natural restrictions too game movement and be in areas that limit the games escape routes,
a smart hunter will use that info to locate, and be at those choke points thus using the tech advantage he has,
and consistently improving his odds of getting a good shot opportunity.

(12)
if your not seeing game where your camped within two days change hunting areas, you've got a limited time,
access to food, water, changes in weather, preferred, altitude and area hunt pressure will effect games location,
elk have zero problem moving miles every day, too find food water cover, or distance themselves from hunting pressure.
unlike whitetail deer they may not be back at your location for weeks, or more, you need to locate the elk in a vast area.
use optics and don,t limit your options be flexible.


(13) use of top quality optics, a good rifle sling and a swivel bi-pod thats tall enough to allow you to comfortably shoot from a sitting position helps a good deal.
I've used one like this for decades, it makes little sense to spend thousands of dollars and dedicate a great deal of effort getting in shape,
then stalking game if you cant rapidly and accurately make a precisely placed shot from a field position into the games vitals, from a reasonable range under most conditions
HB25CS 25C Model S -13.5-27" Swivel Bipod

(14) pick your hunting partners carefully
yes its always a P.I.T.A. if your dealing with some guy who subconsciously feels,hes been lied too!
and that if he spent one or two days wondering aimlessly around, in what he has been told too believe is "elk country"
and when not only him, but everyone else in camp has failed to even see an elk, hes ready to pack it in and go home.
once you've had experience in elk hunting you'll find that ELK can and do cover a lot of terrain, an over night snow that allows you to see,
obviously fresh tracks (even the new guys can now tell fresh from 3-5 day old) tends to help , but if your not seeing elk, change altitude and type of cover,
they will NOT tend to be wondering out in open meadows, and they do require feed, water, cover and vastly prefer low hunter pressure,
thus it generally will require learning to get into less easily reached areas and watching your air flow and odor , and learning to glass and use a topo map.

(15)
buy a few instructional tapes on elk calls, get a cow call and bull call, and learn how to use both,, practice and listen to the tapes, they may not always help you draw in a bull, but they may if properly used raise just enough doubt, in an elk as to what hes hearing move around, near him, to allow you to get just a bit closer for a shot before the elk decides the next drainage seems a healthier option.

(16)
you will need dependable transportation capable of dealing with dirt roads, deep mud, and occasionally deep snow and icy surfaces, something with 4 wheel drive and at least moderate ground clearance, is recommended,your guide may provide this but if your providing the transportation you'll need snow chains decent bumper jacks ,a shovel, a spare tire and detailed area trail maps and regulations

(17)
theres a true old 11th commandment
"thou shall never let those with less experience, skills, & persistence of will,
, limit what you can attempt and ultimately accomplish!"
"IT can,t be done", its the mantra of LOSERS

(18)
larger areas of private land in elk territory, tend to have far lower hunter pressure than adjacent public land, obviously knowing exact property boundary's (you need accurate current maps and GPS, )and if you can gaining legal access to private land has some big advantages , but can be expensive in some areas.



55171366_4041_1a.png

Full-362-Deep-Creek-Canyon.jpg



theres some good universal tips in this thread also
https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whitetail-deer-hunting/418200-florida-whitetail-experience.html

http://www.rmef.org/TheHunt/During/Glassing.aspx

http://soleadventure.com/2013/07/optics-for-western-hunting-binoculars-and-spotting-scopes/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/hunting-binoculars.14300/#post-78145

https://www.gohunt.com/read/optics-what-you-need-for-success-in-the-west

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/live-hunt/2011/07/scouting-tips-how-find-elk-honey-hole-summer

http://www.huntaddicts.com/hunting-advice-tips-tactics/hunting-with-spotting-scopes/

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theres some good universal tips in this thread also
https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whitetail-deer-hunting/418200-florida-whitetail-experience.html



have you seen this?
if your not familiar with hand guns look thru the results of shooting a very high powered revolver when your holding the gun totally wrong!
Ive hunted deer and hogs with a 44 mag revolver and they are much more than just marginally effective, like some people might want you to believe,in fact its every bit as effective as a standard deer rifle once you understand the range and accuracy limits, that the revolver platform, and iron sights limits you to, of about 100 yards or so (depends on your skill level of course) but like any powerful tool, if you don,t know what your doing your sure to get hurt, it doesn,t matter if its a revolver, welder, a race car or circular saw, if you do not know what your doing with it your eventually going to get seriously hurt,or even eventually, killed, if you operate those tools or equipment without proper prior instruction., and a basic understanding of both what your doing and the safety procedures

or as my DAD always said"

"IF YOUR GOING TO BE STUPID... YOU BETTER BE TOUGH!, BECAUSE LIFE'S HARD ENOUGH WITHOUT MAKING THINGS HARDER ON YOURSELF, BY BEING STUPID!, IF YOU DON,T KNOW HOW TO OPERATE SOMETHING ASK QUESTIONS...BEFORE YOU LOOSE PARTS OF YOUR ANATOMY, OR KILL SOMEONE!"
 
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Re: selecting a handgun for hunting hogs

I was down at the local bass pro gun counter and I was kind of window shopping , looking at the larger revolvers,when this guy shows up and says he wants a heavy caliber revolver for deer and hog hunts, so I start listening to the conversation a bit,the clerk reaches for a 8" 500 S&W revolver, the guys obviously never even held a decent magnum revolver , from the way he holds that one,but its also obvious that, thats far too large/heavy, and even he points that out, the clerk drops back to a taurus 454 cassul mag in a raging bull revolver which the guy seems to like, but he then asked about ammo cost and how bad the revolver will recoil.
The clerk asked him if hes ever fired a 44 mag revolver and the guy says, he has ONCE and it was not all that bad but it was about all he could handle, the lying S.O.B. clerk, tells him the 454 cassul is just a bit more recoil than a 44 mag, and ammo's just not much more. the guy then looks at the S&W 7.5" 41 mag revolver and picks it up and tells the clerk this feels great !,... do they come in 44 mag?, the clerk, tells him that the 41 and 44 mag are too under powered to be a serious hunting choice!hes better off with a 454 cassul, at that point I can,t help myself, I step up to the counter , look the clerk directly in the eyes and ask him how many larger deer and hogs HES killed???????, and point out that IVE used a 44 mag revolver for many years very successfully on both, animals ,with easily a dozen or more of each killed and the bullets tend to zip thru both sides and kill very effectively, so whats to be gained with the larger calibers???,I get a return look from the clerk that says I should LEAVE NOW!
I turn to the guy and tell him , don,t be miss informed a 41 or 44 mag loaded with the correct ammo is a truely effective choice, and while its true the 454 cassuls more powerful theres not much gained with that extra energy if its all expended on the ground past the game after the bullet exits...then walk away, Im reasonably sure the clerks pissed but I don,t care.
Ive helped recover a few deer that were shot with pistol caliber cartridges and a high percentage were NOT hit as well as the hunter indicated, unlike archery where a sharp broad-head blade tends to promote rapid bleeding a fairly low velocity bullet impact tends to punch thru and not leave a huge blood trail, that doesn,t mean the wounds less fatal,but it does mean you need to take a good deal of care placing shots and practice a great deal before hunting and realistically judge your effective range limitations and although you generally have a effective range advantage with a large caliber revolver over archery equipment, your generally going to find most iron sight revolvers are at BEST a 120 yard weapon and most people should limit shots to range's that can rapidly and consistently place several shots in a 3"-4" circle, and realistically thats under 60 yards for most people Ive seen shoot.
I especially remember one guy I know who swore he shot a big buck right in the heart with a 357 mag,from about 45 yards,he spend hours while searching telling anyone who was near him he was going to get a 45lc because a 357 mag was just to small for deer, that buck had just ran off as if it was un -touched, he emptied his revolver at the deer as it bounced out of sight ,he came and got us to help track down that deer, we did a grid search over the area and found the deer about 80 yards from where he said it was hit, we found the deer down,about two hours later after he came and got help,with a single hip wound, personally I think dropping a deer that quick with a crappy hit showed the 357 mag was a decent choice PROVIDED it was used properly.
my B-I-L has used a 357 mag marlin carbine for decades with good results, its correct shot placement more than caliber that matters

thats the second time Ive had the clerks who don,t seem, to have much experience, push the more expensive guns as options, vs the the best values , or reasonable choices get pissed off at my advice.

remember hearing stories of when the first 357 mag revolvers came out, the publicity, resulted in guys killing moose and black bear on hunts with even a 357 mag, theres no doubt a 41 and 44 mag exceed the 357 mag, in power when correctly loaded,and ive YET to recover a hard cast 300 grain 44 mag slug from ANY game Ive shot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=30

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh ... .tests.asp

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun

keep in mind that cartridges like the 445 dan wesson
(an extended length case 44 mag,) or the 454 casull and 460 S&W ( an extended length case, similar to a 45 colt)
while significantly more powerful than a standard 44 mag, are not necessarily more lethal in skilled hands, but the extra velocity allows longer effective range use.
and the DAN WESSON REVOLVERS ARE KNOWN TO BE EXCEPTIONALLY ACCURATE and BARRELS ARE EASY TO REPLACE

445PP1.jpg

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm

TAFFIN TESTS: THE .445 SUPERMAG

JOHN TAFFIN

The .357 SuperMag as chambered in the Dan Wesson heavy frame revolver of the same name orinthe Ruger .357 Maximum Blackhawk or even in the Seville Silhouette Single Action, is generally regarded by many experienced silhouetters as the finest revolver cartridge for long range shooting ever conceived.The concept was a simple one. Instead of using a big bore for silhouettes, stretch the .357 Magnum enough that it would handle 180 and 200 grain bullets at normal .357 Magnum muzzle velocities. A length of 1.610" was selected and 180-200 grain bullets did indeed attain the same muzzle velocities as the .357 Magnum using 158 grain bullets. Though the concept was simple, carrying it out was not. It was more than a matter of chambering an existing revolver for the new cartridge as stretching the case to 1.610" also meant stretching revolver frames and cylinders a like amount. This is no simple task and certainly required a large investment in time, money, and engineering.

When the .357 SuperMag from Dan Wesson first appeared on the scene, more than one wildcatter was waiting with reamers in hand to do one thing: Turn it into a true big bore. The largest number of these were turned into .44 SuperMags, and I had the privilege of doing extensive shooting of one such early wildcat, the .44 UltraMag. The .44 UltraMag used .444 Marlin brass cut to 1.600", and this brass being larger in diameter than .44 Magnum brass, was swaged and turned on a lathe until it matched .44 Magnum dimensions. The reason, of course, was to also allow the use of the shorter .44 Magnums in the same cylinder.

My good friend Lew Schafer created the .44 UltraMag and by careful reloading we acquired the following muzzle velocities, in cold temperatures of 20-25 degrees, brutally cold when shooting a big bore revolver, using a six-inch barrelled Dan Wesson revolver:

  • 200 grain Hornady Jacketed Hollow Point 1718 fps

  • 220 grain Sierra FPJ Silhouette 1670 fps

  • 240 grain Hornady Jacketed Silhouette 1596 fps

  • 265 grain Hornady Jacketed Flat Point 1495 fps

  • 305 grain Cast Gas Checked Bullet 1589 fps
All loads were assembled with WW680 powder and CCI #350 Magnum Large Pistol primers with the 305 grain cast bullet giving five-shot groups of 3/8"-1/2" at 25 yards.

Barrels for the .44 UltraMag were standard Dan Wesson .44 Magnum barrels but because the SuperMag frames used different threads, eight-inch .44 Magnum barrels were cut to six-inches and rethreaded. Various .44 SuperMags, based on either .444 Marlin or .30-40 Krag brass, have surfaced since, but the ".44 Stretched Magnum" became a production sixgun in 1988. Dan Wesson and the late Elgin Gates of IHMSA, combined forces to create the.445 SuperMag. Dan Wesson supplied the guns, IHMSA supplied the brass and healthy orders for the new big bore sixgun.

As of this writing, .445 SuperMags are available only from Dan Wesson in both blue and stainless steel versions. No other revolver manufacturer has seen fit to produce the .445 Supermag, so it is either Dan Wesson or a Thompson/Center Contender single-shot. Brass is available, but no factory loaded rounds. Brass can be acquired only from The Silhouette (phone 208-524-0880), and the latest run will be headstamped ".445 Gates" in memory of its creator.

Problems surfaced early with the .445 SuperMag revolver and also with the .445 brass. The first guns had oversize cylinders and the brass was not properly annealed. Problems with sizing .445 SuperMag brass has also resulted whether using either .445 or .44 Magnum carbide sizing dies both of which often raise a sharp ring of metal right above the base of the fired shell. Standard non-carbide .44 Magnum sizing dies will give better results. In my reloading of the .445, I use neither .445 nor .44 Magnum sizing dies but instead opt for a custom RCBS .44 Schafer UltraMag sizing die that puts a slight taper on the case from base to mouth, and is much easier on brass. It is somewhat of a nuisance to use as cases must be lubed and virtually hand fed into the very sharp, very flat base of the sizing die, but the results are well worth it. Most sizing dies have a slight funnel shape at the bottom to assist entrance of the case mouth; the .44 UltraMag die does not.

Except for the case-sizing cautions, reloading the .44 SuperMag is the same as for reloading the .44 Magnum. A good heavy crimp is required both to keep bullets from moving forward in recoil as the big sixgun is fired, and also to get the powder started burning properly. Powder selection is a little different as I stay with H4227, WW296, H110, WW680, and AA#1680, staying away from any faster burning powders.

The same bullets that work in the .44 Magnum also work well in the .44 SuperMag with my preference being for the heavier bullets in the 290 to 310 grain weight range. The .44 SuperMag is a an exceptionally accurate cartridge and this accuracy is even further enhanced by the use of heavyweight bullets such as the SSK J.D. Jones designed #310.429 flat point, the NEI #295.429 GC (available from BRP Bullets, 1210 Alexander Road, Dept. AH, Colorado Springs Colorado 80909) or Sierra's 300 grain jacketed flat point. Speer also has a 300 grain bullet in the works but I have not yet received any for testing as this is written.

Large Rifle primers are usually recommended for the .445 UltraMag/SuperMag/Gates, but I have yet to determine a nickel's worth of difference between the use of Large Rifle Primers and Magnum Pistol Primers. Muzzle velocities and accuracy are both virtually identical whether Federal or CCI Large Rifle Primers, or Federal or CCI Magnum Pistol Primers are used.

The .445 SuperMag has been touted as a silhouette revolver and it is IF properly loaded. It makes little sense to load it to the hilt and try to shoot 40, 60, or 80 targets with it. Even with the ten-inch barrelled version, which is just a shade under four pounds, recoil can be quite disconcerting with full house loads. For silhouetting, I would stay at 1650 feet per second or less with the 220 grain Sierra silhouette bullet or 1500 feet per second with the 240 Speer silhouette bullet. Using the 220 grain Sierra and 34.0 grains of H4227, muzzle velocity is 1648 feet per second according to the triple sky screens of my Oehler Model 35P chronograph. The same load in an eight-inch barrel goes 1635 fps, six-inch gives 1541 fps, and the Super Fourteen T/C Contender milks it for all it is worth and yields just barely over two thousand feet per second.

With the 240 Speer silhouette bullet, I use either 33.0 grains of H110, 31.0 grains of H4227, or 38.0 grains of WW680 for the 1500 feet per second muzzle velocity range from the ten-inch barrelled Dan Wesson. These same loads will do 1350 to 1450 feet per second in the six-inch and eight-inch barreled DW's and right around 1850 in the Super Fourteen.

The heavier weight bullets really make the .445 worthwhile and the replacing of the ten-inch standard barrel or eight-inch heavy barrel that were standard equipment with my early .445 Dan Wesson with a standard weight six-inch barrel makes the .445 handle as easily as a Smith & Wesson Model 29. Well, real close anyway. The shorter barrel transforms the big Dan Wesson from a clumsy, heavy competition pistol to a very packable hunting pistol.

Hunting with the .445 SuperMag means heavyweight bullets such as the 265 grain Hornady Jacketed Flat Point, the 300 grain Sierra Jacketed Flat Point, or cast bullets such as NEI's 295 grain Keith style or SSK's 310 grain flat point. Using 31.0 grains of H110 with the latter three bullets in the 300 grain weight range yields impressive muzzle velocities with the six-inch barreled Dan Wesson. Even with this relatively short barrel length, the 300 grain cast bullets will go 1500 feet per second giving a lot of power from a small package, or the 300 grain Sierra Jacketed Flat Point will do 1300 feet per second with the same load. For a slightly less powerful load, try 34.0 grains of WW680 with either of the 300 grain bullets.

LOADS FOR THE .445 SUPERMAG

FIREARM: DAN WESSON MODEL 445
CHRONOGRAPH: OEHLER MODEL 35P
PRIMER: FEDERAL #210
TEMPERATURE: 70 DEGREES



BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SIERRA 300 JFP 29.0 GR. H110 1299 1290 1220
30.0 GR. H110 1302 1294 1242
31.0 GR. H110 1395 1394 1295
32.0 GR. H110 1445 1429 1369
32.0 GR. WW680 1144 1121 1100
33.0 GR. WW680 1229 1163 1133
34.0 GR. WW680 1284 1247 1191
35.0 GR. WW680 1340 1293 1253

BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
BRP 295 KEITH* 29.0 GR. H110 1447 1443 1376
30.0 GR. H110 1512 1502 1477
31.0 GR. H110 1608 1572 1498
32.0 GR. H110 1635 1607 1527
32.0 GR. WW680 1397 1344 1336
33.0 GR. WW680 1435 1406 1405
34.0 GR. WW680 1554 1496 1442
35.0 GR. WW680 1568 1541 1514
36.0 GR. WW680 1612 1550 1538


BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SSK 310 FN** 29.0 GR. H110 1446 1442 1402
30.0 GR. H110 1501 1472 1421
31.0 GR. H110 1546 1494 1491
32.0 GR. H110 1575 1563 1544
32.0 GR. WW680 1399 1375 1334
33.0 GR. WW680 1492 1462 1444
34.0 GR. WW680 1572 1521 1500
35.0 GR. WW680 1601 1547 1517


BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
HORNADY 265 FN 29.0 GR. H110 1361 1308 1258
30.0 GR. H110 1406 1394 1286
31.0 GR. H110 1486 1459 1310
32.0 GR. H110 1536 1527 1409
29.0 GR. H4227 1390 1377 1267
30.0 GR. H4227 1468 1445 1306
31.0 GR. H4227 1534 1506 1327
32.0 GR. H4227 1581 1576 1430


BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SPEER 240 FMJ 32.0 GR. H110 1471 1441 1313
33.0 GR. H110 1516 1517 1387
34.0 GR. H110 1522 1525 1442
35.0 GR. H110 1577 1533 1485
36.0 GR. H110 1570 1575 1512
30.0 GR. H4227 1408 1367 1296
31.0 GR. H4227 1514 1493 1326
32.0 GR. H4227 1609 1599 1444
33.0 GR. H4227 1682 1626 1550
35.0 GR. WW680 1419 1335 1227
36.0 GR. WW680 1451 1359 1289
37.0 GR. WW680 1476 1391 1331
38.0 GR. WW680 1504 1432 1353
39.0 GR. WW680 1499 1630 1405
34.0 GR. AA#1680 1256 1235 1045
35.0 GR. AA#1680 1345 1324 1070
36.0 GR. AA#1680 1377 1365 1189
37.0 GR. AA#1680 1388 1376 1252



BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SIERRA 220 FMJ 34.0 GR. H4227 1648 1635 1541
35.0 GR. H4227 1759 1705 1561
36.0 GR. H4227 1793 1780 1640
38.0 GR. WW680 1479 1460 1287
39.0 GR. WW680 1482 1461 1295
40.0 GR. WW680 1517 1491 1360


44magcarb.jpg

after watching several friends use a 41 mag I see the results are a bit more similar to the 44 mag than the 357 mag , but with only a few deer and hogs being shot, with the 41 mag compared to the 44 and 357 , Id be reluctant to suggest its any less effective than the 44 if properly loaded and used.
a quick look at load data suggests the 44 has a small but noticeable advantage


44
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... pe=Handgun


41
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... er&Source=

357
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... er&Source=


just a comparison here of
commonly used revolver cast bullet hand loads
for hunting,Id point out that operator skill and experience matters a great deal.
even the properly hand loaded 357 mag will prove lethal to deer and hogs and even elk in skilled hands,
but its generally considered marginal on the larger game at ranges over 50 yards



357 mag .357 diam......170 grain projectile at 1400 fps 750 ft lbs
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

41 mag....410 diam.....210 grain projectile at 1400 fps 914 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=41 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
44 mag....430 diam.....310 grain projectile at 1300 fps 1160 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=300&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

these last five will take a great deal more practice as muzzle blast,and recoil levels are noticeable, the 480 rugers a great compromise between power and recoil

445 DWSM mag....430 diam.....310 grain projectile at 1570fps 1690 ft lbs

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun

454 cassul....454 diam.....335 grain projectile at 1500 fps 1675 ft lbs

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=454 Casull&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source

460 S&W......454 diam. 360 grain projectile at 1600 fps 2046 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=460 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

480 ruger.....476 diam......325 grain projectile at 1375 fps 1365 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

500 S&W.....500 diam. 400 grain projectile at 1600 fps 2274 ft lbs

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All
 
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just because you may not have killed an elk or know someone who has killed an elk with a handgun doesn,t indicate its not an effective choice in experienced hands
now theres some obvious differences required between use of a hand gun and a rifle, less range and proper bullet selection for a hand gun are mandatory
first Ive used a 445 dan wesson super mag that throws a 300 grain hard cast bullet at 1500 PLUS fps from a 10" barrel
the bullets don,t seem to expand a great deal but they do penetrate deeply.
Ive had freinds use a 260 grain hard cast bullet from a 8.3/8" 44 mag revolver.
both handguns and loads can shoot clear thru an elks chest from under 75-100 yards

the Colorado hunting regulations, under legal hunting methods it states that a handgun load must produce a minimum energy of 550 ft-lbs at 50 yards to be legal for hunting.
think about this the archery guys would have a difficult time hitting an elk with a 100 ft lbs of energy an arrow kills by blood loss, a good revolver load can easily deliver 700-1200 ft lbs of energy and drive a bullet thru the vitals and in many cases exit even an elk.
you will need to practice until hitting a 4" target at 100 yards is reasonably easy and limit shots to about the range you can consistently do that, but a 44 caliber or larger caliber hand gun can be deadly in experienced hands

guys ask why not just select a 460 S&W or 500 S&W, well theres some advantages to those selections but not nearly as much as it might at first appear to be,
increased powers nice at times but when the guns weight and recoil start to become a concern in its use that reduce its ease of use they become a negative factor
hand gun hunting has far more similarities to archery than rifle hunting.
IT requires getting into just about the same , but a bit longer 30-70 yards ranges in most cases that archery hunting is limited too.
theres no real advantage that I can see in calibers like the 454 cassul and 460 S&W over a 44 mag, 480 ruger or 445 mag, or even the 50 S&W once you reach the power level that allows any of those revolvers to drive a bullet thru the vitals from reasonable angles .
now theres no real dis-advantage either if you can handle the weight of the revolver and the recoil, but once you can drive a 44-45-50 cal hard cast bullet thru the heart and lungs at ranges up to 70-100 yards or so, your doing about everything a hunting revolver is designed to do, if your one of the guys who uses a scope and a contender your basically just using a single shot rifle with a hand grip replacing the shoulder stock, and while its technically a hand gun, in my opinion, you've lost a good deal of the advantages and hunting experience that hand gun hunting involves, your using the extra range advantage to avoid the need to acquire the stalking skill and learning to use cover it takes to be an effective hand gun hunter
 
I,m always amazed at the guys who think nothing of shooting an ELK with a 270 win,30/06 at 500 yards and brag about dropping game at extended range who then tell you a 44 mag is far to light to use at 50-75 yards because it lacks the punch required, well if you do some testing youll find that a 44 mag does at least as much and usually more damage to deer and elks vitals with similar hits at under 100 yards when loaded with proper bullets than a 270win or 30/06 does at extended ranges.
especially when you realize that a rifle bullet at those extended ranges tends to expand a good deal less in total diam, nor penetrate as deeply than a 44 slug does at closer ranges
as long as the revolver and bullet design used have the required penetration potential to easily reach and destroy the vitals at reasonable ranges from almost any angle even if major bone and muscle protect the intended target,and the shooter has the knowledge of the games anatomy and skill with his selected revolver to accurately place his shot, adding additional power only adds recoil and slows recovery time that can allow or slow additional rapid shots that may or may not have much effect, punch thru the spine or brain, bust a shoulder or neck vertebra and you tend to get an instant responce, punch the lungs or heart or liver and youve delivered a mortal wound but it generally won,t be instantly fatal.
plenty of guys have proven that a hard cast 300 grain or larger bullet from a 44 mag or 454 cassul or 460 S&W ETC. will do that on big game , its the shot placement not the power that matters, if your just banging off shots in the general vicinity , you better be very lucky.
Ive had guys walk up as I was dressing out large hogs that commented that they could not believe I could kill a hog that large with a 357 mag, its all about bullet construction, your knowledge of anatomy and your skill placing the shot!
yes a 44 mag has the power to kill anything in north America,with a well placed shot, but its a rare individual that keeps his (COOL) and concentrates on placing that shot or shots, and obviously your going to be highly stressed and under a very limited time window in most cases so practice and confidence in your weapon are mandatory

I have zero problem believing that a 350-440 grain bullet from a 475-500 caliber revolver hits a bit harder than a 280-320 grain hard cast gas check, bullet from my 445 dwsm that easily pushes those 1500fps or higher fps from its 10" barrel
what I don,t see as easily is if the 44 cal dan wesson super mag already shoots clear thru the game and exits leaving a rather significant amount of damage, how hitting an elk or other non dangerous game is going to be a big improvement, the reason I make that statement is that Ive used a 600 grain 62 caliber maxi ball from my 62 hawken pushed to 1300fps, and a federal 10ga 2oz slug (thats 75 cal and nearly 880 grains)from my Ithaca road blocker at about 1300fps on deer and hogs and its not noticeably more effective on deer and hogs than the big dwsm revolvers been, any of them with good hits in the vitals tends to either drop the game or have the game run a short distance then drop after being hit?
both the federal shotgun slugs and the soft lead mini balls expand to well over an inch across, absolutely devastating, you would find the damage caused amazing yet the results are still similar, ...bang!--..good hit.....dead animal in a very short time with any of the three firearms...provided shot placements decent.
what Im trying to point out is that at some point theres a diminished return on additional power, double or triple the energy or bullet mass doesn,t result in any more lethal wounds, and with the revolver the bullets always seem to exit, so theres not much point in adding velocity or bullet mass.
now if something with a nasty bite and claws wants to get up close and personal Id grab that 10ga road blocker every time because 75 caliber and 2OZ slogs slams the target, but Ive still seen deer hit almost spun on impact run ten-20 more yards before dropping
 
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several of the guys I normally hunt deer and elk with have decided they want to use back-up handguns to hunt elk, with occasionally, mostly because, as has been pointed out time after time, most of the time we spend is spent glassing and sneaking thru rather steep heavily timbered areas and ranges tend to be rather short, most of the time. many of the guys know Ive hunted deer and hogs for 35 plus years with a large revolver so I got drafted into giving them some info, and lessons.
I said lets look over what your attempting to do and see if your willing to deal with the restrictions and limitations.
don,t assume I'M telling you you've got a nearly hopeless task because Ive regularly, and consistently killed game with a heavy caliber revolver,and youll have 3-5 times the range advantage to work with over the archery hunters so its not all that great of a handicap, (using a iron site revolver) in skilled hands,but I'm forced to point out the limitations and the need for extensive practice before you can hope to be successful.
Id also point out that killing deer , hogs, or bear from a tree stand where you've got the time to carefully plan a shot and can reasonably expect the range to be well under 70 yards is a bit different that stalking mule deer or elk in aspen thickets where ranges may be expected to be in the 50-120 yard range and you'll have less than ideal conditions in many cases.
I pointed out that the first requirement is knowing the laws and in Colorado, a hot loaded 357 mag with at least a 4" barrel is about the minimum caliber that's legal , but Id strongly suggest a 41 mag or 44 mag with a 6" or longer barrel as the reasonable minimum, all my revolvers have 8"-10" barrels, as the increased distance on the sights helps at longer ranges with old eyes trying to focus, and you must practice till you can place shots accurately in about a 4"-6" group from field positions , the max range you can consistently do that at should be the max range you consider shooting large game and if that's not at least 50 yards or more Id suggest sticking to a rifle as your main armament simply because the seasons only about 8-12 days long you'll be competing with rifle hunters during rifle season and you'll easily spend $800-$2000 for a few days hunting time so your without a doubt handicapping your self with a handgun rather than a rifle, it is rather foolish, tio do so unless you get far more proficient than most guys Ive seen are with hand guns , picture a large bull elk walking briskly past you at 200 yards and you have only a 41 mag -44 mag or even a 445 dws-mag with a 6"-10" barrel in your hand, how are you going to feel knowing that if you had a carbine rather than a handgun you could have a far better chance off success?
and don,t assume if you fire at an elk or mule deer with a revolver that if the game runs that you missed, a revolver loaded with the proper hard cast bullets kills much like an arrow in archery hunting in that it punches a hole thru vital organs and it COMMON for game to take a minute or two to bleed out and drop and during that breif time much of the time the games trying to puts as much distance as it can between you and them.
a well hit deer or ELK can easily travel 50-150 yards or more, depending on shot placement and caliber and range, sometimes giving little reaction to the bullet impact
Ive carried a 445 dan wesson super mag revolver in a shoulder holster on many elk hunts but I also carry a 340 wby, or 35 whelen, or some other rifle or carbine, not just the handgun. handguns are great but they are not the ideal hunting tool in most conditions.
they are excellent for use as security from bears, or other threats when back-packing out heavy loads of elk meat , when a rifle is a P.I.T.A. to carry , but they are not the ideal primary hunting tool, unless you are fully willing to deal with the challenge that the average user with a handgun,has with its limited range and accuracy compared to a rifle. and Id suggest its use only if the HUNT is more important to you than bring home MEAT!
with practice it should be fairly easy for most guys to acquire the skill to hit game accurately with a handgun out to 80-120 yards , and with a quality revolver in a caliber like 41 mag-500 S&W theres no reason you can,t kill an elk with a single well placed shot at those ranges.
.theres always a compromise in power, range,trajectory, recoil, revolver size and weight, the 44 mag is the minimum ID suggest,for most guys in a primary hunting revolver, the 480 ruger, 454 cassul, 445 dwsm, 475 mag and 460 S&W -500 S&W are all decent choices,but remember PRACTICE takes time and ammos expensive so ID tend to factor that into the choice, the 44mag will cost less than 1/4 of what a 500 S&W will in ammo if you reload, obviously the 500 mag hits harder but either caliber in skilled hands has the potential to easily kill elk.
"The law in Colorado only allows handguns to be used during rifle seasons and with the following restrictions: Barrel length of 4” or longer, .24 caliber or larger with an expanding bullet, no shoulder stocks or attachments, must produce 550 ft/lbs. or more at 50 yards,"

http://dfuse.us/COhandgunhunting.html

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt475.htm

because the area I hunt has more large hogs than deer most days, I tend to hunt with hard cast 300 grain lead bullets over 20 gains of H110 with my 44 mag revolver.
this works great on tough hogs and reasonably well on deer but it punches thru either and exits in most cases, while that doesn,t have the instant shock effect of a hollow point bullet its got the advantage that you can depend on the slug penetrating the vitals from almost any angle which is a huge advantage at times

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0152660650

I think too many guys that are fairly new to hunting with a hand gun mistakenly assume they should and will ALWAYS get almost identical results to what they may be used to getting with the common deer rifles like a 308win,270 win or 257 roberts class rifles
watch video (thats a 44 mag revolver)
Ive loaded a hard cast 300-310 grain lyman or LEE gas check bullet over 20-21 grains of H110 powder in my 44 mag for decades , (start with 19 grains and work up a 1/2 grain at a time ) it shoots clear thru most hogs and deer exiting and still going strong so be aware you don,t want to shoot a deer with a second deer directly behind the first. Ive used a longer barrel 44 mag revolver for most hunts and while I've dropped a few deer on bullet impact most run a short distance even when hit correctly.
cast bullets from 95% ww alloy and 5% pure tin so it rivets and expands but won,t come apart and fragment

deer-anatomya.jpg

shot placements critical , and most guys won't admit they are NOT as accurate with a revolver as they are with a rifle,look at the two thin red and green lines pictured below , neither is ideal, both enter about where a typical broad side shot should, the thicker blue and purple lines compensate for the entrance angle so as to clip through the vitals.
most hand guns don,t produce the same SHOCK as a higher velocity rifle YET they are just as lethal in skilled hands, its just a bit more likely game will travel a short distance after bullet impact because the internal damage tends to be longer and deeper but a bit less expansive, and explosive expansion is not as common, this hardly indicates the damage will be less lethal only a bit different
keep in mind a rifle like a 270 hits at 2-3 times the impact velocity
shotplacement4a.jpg

293ss&w.jpg
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cViXU8eX ... playnext=2

heres some hand gun kills , showing its mostly shot placement that counts, less than ideal shot placement above, better results below



when I hunt deer or elk with a carbine or rifle I occasionally carried a 357 mag revolver as a back-up in a shoulder holster,when I hunted with a revolver as the primary weapon I generally chose a long barrel 44 mag.
my brother in laws hunted with a 357 mag marlin carbine and 686 smith and wesson for decades and while we are both been successful, theres zero question in either of our minds that the 44 mag, properly loaded is the better tool for hunting,if you can handle the recoil in a revolver, (my brother in law never has been comfortable doing that so hes stayed with the 357 mag.) but thats not the same thing as saying the 357 mag won,t kill deer hogs or even elk effectively in a skilled hunters hands,or is not easier and cheaper to shoot.
my brother in law constantly kids me about needing a "DAMN CANNON" when I use my 44 mag revolver and points out how much lighter in weight a 357 marlin carbine is to carry after long walks in the field.... hes very fond of pointing out the fact that you carry a carbine 99.999 percent of the time and spend very little time actually shooting game and that hes never yet had anything hes shot not drop dead eventually....he also grudgingly admits it seldom puts game down instantly

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...do-i-need-here-for-a-500-s-w-reloading.11917/
 
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THE 445 DAN WESSON SUPER MAG
21716c.bmp.jpg

this is a great revolver, with the correct loads its both extremely accurate and easily cared for, plus its able to use either 44 mag ammo or hand loads that are close to 454 cassul power in a 10" barrel, with the 300 grain hard cast, bullets its incredibly effective on deer and hogs in my experience at the 120 yard or closed distances that iron sights more or less limit precise shot placement too!
while the energy levels produced by most big bore revolvers looks anemic when compared to most deer rifles , don,t be fooled a 44 mag, 454 casull, 445 dwsm , 480 ruger or 500 S&W may not have the energy of a 30/06 Springfield, but in practiced hands with the correct ammo and at reasonable ranges its every bit as lethal, if the hunter knows the games anatomy and understands his range and accuracy limitations (IT TAKES A GREAT DEAL OF PRACTICE FOR MOST PEOPLE TO CONSISTENTLY HIT A 4" CIRCLE PAST 75 YARDS)
recoil on full power loads is stiff but manageable with practice, something that can not be said in my opinion on the higher power 460 and 500 call S&W

500555.jpg

500s&w.jpg


pistolcalk.jpg

500swd.jpg

yes its big and heavy, its not something you might carry concealed , but its better in that respect than the 460S&W and 500S&W in weight and recoil, and while its not quite in the same potential max power range its easily able to handle ANY north American game in skilled hands, it shoots thru even large hogs easily
1235101876.jpg

short versions the 44 mag longer case is 445 dwsm

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03 ... on_041306/

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w445supmag.html

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/taffi ... er&Source=

IVE DONE A GREAT DEAL OF TESTING WITH HARD CAST 44 BULLETS,you might want to keep in mind that the 44 mag case capacity and current powders require about a 6" or LONGER barrel to get any bullet of 280-300 grains to max velocity , mostly because max cartridge length dictates the seat depth to some extent and at some point your forced to start seating bullets much deeper as bullet weight is increased and once you get into the 300 plus grain weight bullets,in most revolvers its almost mandatory to use the longer barrels to allow the full burn on the slower powders required to shove those heavier bullets to max velocity, but slower powders generally require larger powder capacity.
Ive found the 240-300 grain weights to be about the best weight range,in the 44 mag, if your intent on faster velocitys the 445 dwsm with a 10" barrel has a big advantage over the S&W 44 mag 10 5/8 " as the case capacity allows more powder to burn and similar or lower pressures over a longer time which generally results in an extra 200-300 fps in velocity

either revolver or cartridge shoots clear thru most deer or hogs and bullets still embed deeply in trees beyond when loaded with 300 grain hard cast, so both are potentially lethal to much larger game
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... un&Source=

example
429-330-gc.jpg

heres a 330 grain design
429-295-gc.jpg

heres a 295 grain design
youll have a hard time pushing the heavier bullets in a 44 mag to velocities that allow it to out penetrate the lighter weight bullet because the heavier bullet takes up too much case capacity,in the smaller 44 mag case, yet either is easily able to kill elk or large game in skilled hands as both penetrate deeply with the correct loads and shot placement is more critical than velocity, in my experience the 44 mag is at its most effective level when used with the 270 grain-to-310 grain hard cast projectile weights.
the 445 DWSM can push the heavier 320-335 grain bullets faster but you don,t gain a great deal more killing power


29-3SilhouetteLeftSide.jpg

21716c.bmp.jpg


445smloadsx.jpg

BTW, if you decide to find a used DAN WESSON 445 super mag, the muzzle brake link below is a very useful accessory, fit and fit and finish are all decent , price is reasonable
http://www.ewkarms.com/zen8/index.php?m ... ucts_id=93
the only time I had a bear in really close, I had a 445 DWSM pistol in my hand,loaded with 300 grain hard cast at 1400fps, aimed at his skull as we sized each other up from about 30 feet, I had failed to notice him until he stood up next to my dead elk ,I was returning to the ELK ID killed earlier to pack out more meat, I said something loud and hopefully menacing, and the bear decided I was either nuts or no good to eat or a genuine threat, as he spun and walked off briskly.
Ill take a 445 DWSM loaded like that over PEPPER SPRAY any day, I know that revolver will put large , deep holes in a bear, that seems like a much better deterrent than having my butt taste extra spicy when he gets to me with pepper spray

"have you ever felt under armed with a hunting handgun? or have you ever needed to pass on a shot because you knew it was out of your realistic range limitation and ability to place a shot accurately?"
I was loading some ammo for my 445 dan wesson super mag revolver and had a friend over thats never hunted with a handgun as his only weapon, hes used his rifles for all big game hunts and he asked me that question.
now Ive used a 44mag or 445 dwsm handgun for decades,and while Ive certainly seen game at ranges exceeding my self imposed ,hand gun accuracy comfort zone of about 120 yards Ive never thought it was much of a handicap, I just figured out how to get closer until I was comfortable making the shot.
If the archery guys can collect as much game as they do with about a 40-50 yard effective range limitation certainly having twice that effective range is hardly the limitation that will ruin your hunts chances of collecting game!
and after dressing out game hit with a 44 mag or 445 dwsm I don,t see them as any limit on game as to limited lethality.
once your getting complete pass through shots with 300 grain hard cast bullets I doubt lethality is a big issue
I rarely hunt where that lack of range is much of an issue as hunt pressure tends to be rather low in the areas I hunt as I get into areas far from easy road access and in thicker tree growth, areas or steep canyons where ranges tend to be well under 100 yards far more often than over.
it just doesn,t make sense to me to hunt where your not using the strong points of your weapon, and with a handgun thats ease of transport, ability to keep your hands free most of the time and travel into areas most guys avoid like the IRS or an EX-wife... but thats to your advantage because GAME tends to avoid the easy access areas and concentrate in those far less hunted areas also.
and yes before someone asks you WILL occasionally find even near perfect hits result in game running a few yards or even 50 yards,just like with archery, that does not mean hits are not mortal.
I had several similar incidents with large hogs and light jacketed bullets where ID knock them down only to have them get back up or at least be flopping around due to less that full penetration, swapping to hard cast 270-310 grain bullets reduced the number of hogs an deer that dropped instantly, but eliminated the long trailing jobs resulting from less than mortal wounds, a hard cast might not kill as dramatically in every case, but its far more dependable at getting full penetration and destroying tissue all the way in, thru and out the other side.
once you do your part and put a .44 cal hole thru lungs and heart with both an entrance and exit wound its just a mater of seconds to the point your dealing with dead game , obviously knowing game anatomy's critical to success
and a bullet can,t fragment into glitter on encountering bone or muscle, a hard cast 300 grain 44 cal won,t loaded over 20 grains of H110 in a 44 mag won,t fail to penetrate
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0152660650

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0000690227

notice that on most big game a shot aimed at a point 1/3rd of the way up into the chest from the lower chests lower edge, thats directly in line with, or very slightly to the rear of, the rear of the front leg center-line tends to place the bullet impact thru the vitals

deer-anatomya.jpg

hog-anatomy.jpg

elk-anatomy.jpg

bear-anatomy.jpg
 
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I went to the range yesterday with a friend (JACK) who just purchased a new 8" 500 S&W revolver , I brought along my 445 dan wesson super mag and we were going to sight in his revolver and I wanted to practice a bit with mine at the same time, now Ive had my 445 dwsm for about 20 years and I load 300 grain hard cast gas check bullets to about 1470fps so while its not in the same power range as the 500 S&W pushing 350 grain at about 1700fps I know from experience that my 445 dwsm shoots clear thru all the hogs and deer Ive ever shot, so more power seems rather unnecessary, and the difference in recoil is noticeable.
well off the bench rest I can keep a 3" hundred yard group with THAT load but I found that a slightly different load was a bit more accurate. Id also loaded a few 335 grain NEI bullets at 1400fps and they produced a 2"-2.3" group size off the bench rest which is amazingly good for these old eyes and iron sights.
I found theres really no reason to exceed the power I get from the 10" S&W with the 44 mag load I mentioned using a Lee 310 grain bullet over 21 grains of H110.
it frequently exits deer and hogs from most angles and it has been just as effective pushed at about 1300fps from the 44 mag as 250 fps faster from a hotter handload in my larger 445 DWSM
with any decent quality hunting revolver, youll need a durable functional holster
http://www.opticsplanet.com/desantis-right-hand-black-black-mamba-m40ba05z0.html
mamba-holster.jpg

the 44 mag silhouette with adjustable front site and 10 5/8" barrel
293ss&w.jpg

YES IT REQUIRES a shoulder holster to use comfortably
10sho.jpg

vrhl6.jpg
vrhl5.jpg

while the energy levels produced by most big bore revolvers looks anemic when compared to most deer rifles , don,t be fooled a 44 mag, 454 casull, 445 dwsm , 480 ruger or 500 S&W may not have the energy of a 30/06 Springfield, but in practiced hands with the correct ammo and at reasonable ranges its every bit as lethal, if the hunter knows the games anatomy and understands his range and accuracy limitations (IT TAKES A GREAT DEAL OF PRACTICE FOR MOST PEOPLE TO CONSISTENTLY HIT A 4" CIRCLE PAST 75 YARDS)
recoil on full power loads is stiff but manageable with practice, something that can not be said in my opinion on the higher power 460 and 500 call S&W

500555.jpg

500s&w.jpg

YES THE ALLOY its cast from matters, use 95% WW and 5% pure tin this results in a bullet that expands slowly but exits and won,t fragment, and while I'm sure to hear a few different opinions Ive used the same ammo in my marlin 1894 carbine with equally good results
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690227/6-Cavity-Mold-C430-310-RF-
now I try to limit shots in the field to the 75-120 yards ranges where I'm confident of good center chest hits on game, so It looks like Im going to be loading more NEI bullets for future hunts.
Jack , is an excellent pistol shot and he had zero trouble with the 500 once he got it on paper and sights adjusted , his groups were about 3" at 50 yards and he ran out of ammo before he could try it at 100 yards so he played with my 445 DWSM for a few shots and after that he said something I thought was interesting, he said if the DWSM 445 was still in production he probably would have bought one and after shooting his 500 S&W he thinks that he probably should have purchased the 460 S&W because while the 500 is a great idea in theory the recoil makes it a bit much for extended practice and while hes glad he purchased the revolver if he had it to do over he would have purchased a 10" barrel 460 S&W.
most of the best loads in the 500 mag will be a compromise in both velocity and bullet mass , and if you do the calculations the larger .500 bore will best use a 400 grain to about a 530 grain projectile

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
429-330-gc.jpg



21716c.bmp.jpg


445smloadsx.jpg

smithandweson500.jpg


http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus_500.htm
500s&w.jpg

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... der&Source
SOME DAN WESSON PARTS
http://www.ewkarms.com/zen8/index.php?m ... ucts_id=93

Id point out that the main potential advantage to use of a hunting revolver is a slight increase in hunter mobility, allowing you to get into places that might be a bit harder carrying a rifle and the ability to more easily pack out game once your successful but you tend to pay a price in that you really DON,T want to shoot an elk 5 miles down into some deep canyon that requires you to use both hands free to climb out of (ASK ME I KNOW ONLY TOO WELL FROM EXPERIENCE) yes hunting elk with a handgun can be done, and if you carefully pick the area "its a real HOOT!" but you also feel like a darn fool when your only firearm is a revolver and you see the first 6 x7 elk you have ever seen on public land walk by at 300 yards and you know if you had carried a light rifle he would be yours, but with a revolver your limited to much shorter ranges making an ethical kill.
(probably under 120 yards if your skilled and much less if your not that well practiced, its not that a heavy caliber revolver won,t kill further but with iron sights your ability to accurately and precisely place shots drops rapidly past about 120 yards )
IVE carried and used a handgun on dozens of hunts but its a secondary to a decent rifle, the handgun gets used in the thick stuff or when packing out game but I drive 2300 miles one way to hunt elk and generally have only 7-9 days a year to actually be in the field,I back pack into areas and camp cold in remote areas, Im successful frequently and costs average easily $2000 plus on a hunt, so Im not going to be watching the trophy walk by if I can avoid it .
and yes before you ask, a 44 mag revolver will punch holes clear thru mule deer and drop them like thors hammer at under 100 yards Ive done it several times!, but Ive also passed on many chances exceeding 120 yards because Im well aware of accuracy limitation that the iron sights and older eyes combine to limit accurate shot placement
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THIS IS A PICTURE OF THE AREA I HUNT FREQUENTLY FOR ELK, its easily a 3 hour walk out on each trip once you shoot an elk
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LOWER CANYON
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upper canyon
Ive shot dozens of hogs over several decades, most try hard to avoid hunters and vacate the area your in fast.
now I'll be the first guy to point out that some "charges" guys talk about,
maybe the result of some hog just picking the direction he was headed in and running flat out to escape a perceived threat!
but I'm convinced after decades thats not always true!
I know from decades of hunting hogs that on a rare occasion if you wound a large hog,
he may have revenge on his vindictive, little pig minds agenda!
on one of the first hog hunts I ever went on my buddy was in a tree stand overlooking a field of about 7 acres,
and I was across that field that was covered in densely grown grass, weeds brush, about 2-3 feet thick And tall mostly sawgrass,
covering an area that had been burnt off the year previously.
he had just shot at a large hog with his 12 ga using buck-shot at a range of about 50 yards,
As I was about 1/2 way across that field the hog must have heard me walking as at the shot,
I could see the grass parting like a bow wave from a ship as he headed straight for my location,
while several other smaller bow waves generated by other hogs took off at about 90 degrees, from his route.
I had a 44 mag model 29 loaded with 240-grain hard cast gas check bullets,
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over a stiff load of 19.5 grains of 2400 powder,
I could see the grass parting in a straight line headed in my direction,
but until the hog got to about 30 feet distance I could not see him.
now keep in mind, the ranges where we hunt in Florida seldom exceed 40 yards and 50 yards is a rare long shot,
most shots are taken at under 40 yards , in very thick brush. saw grass palmetto etc.
frankly, I was not ready at the time to repel a charge but as soon as I saw a target I fired and the hog flipped and skidded and kicked a few times,
the body stopping about 10 feet from me I thought Id fired once, but after checking I realized my pistol had two empty cases,
and the hog was hit once in the spine behind the head and once in the ribs further back along the spine,
Id fired twice both double action shots at close range,(at under 35 feet)
with both hard cast 44 bullets passing through that hog that had to weight in the 120-130 lb range,
exiting the lower hog stomach area at different angles and locations.
dressing out the hog we found two buckshot in the left ham.
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on a different hunt a buddy shot at a hog that looked like it dropped instantly he went over and was about to nudge it with his toe when it jumped up and hooked him in the calf causing a 15 stitch slice in his leg
both he with a 9mm and another buddy with a 357 mag revolver stopped further damage, with a hail of bullets,
and a rapid trip to the local hospital resulted from the serious medical damage to his leg, that took months to recover from and it left a damn impressive scar!
 
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I found this after a quick search.
if you think a revolver doesn,t have the required penetration....
keep in mind a deer or elks vital organs are seldom more than 10" under the hide, so a revolver that penetrates even that far can deliver a mortal wound, that being said in 40 plus years of hunting with hard cast bullets and a 44 mag I can only remember one or two bullets that didn,t penetrate all the way thru deer and exit.
I hunt rather regularly with a 10" barrel 44 mag revolver and have found little problem with making shots out to about 125-150 yards with iron sights,from a steady sitting position, into a 2 lb coffee can size target, but I rarely shoot game at ranges past 80 yards, and I rarely need too as handgun hunts are generally a thick cover close range affair, at under 100 yards a hard cast 300 grain bullet regularly shoots thru a deers chest and at times thru hogs.
a short 20-60 yard run after bullet impact happens in many cases but a single hits fatal


"As a shooter of big bore sixguns for well over four decades, and also one who knows how effective sixguns can be on big game, I must say I was surprised at how effective various sixgun cartridges proved to be during the penetration tests. For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used. No guess. No golly. No opinion.

Going back to the five cartridges mentioned at the beginning the results were most interesting. Randy Garrett's .45-70 Hammerhead 530 gr. hardcast at 1,550 fps went 55" into wet newspaper. A 495 gr. hardcast .500 Linebaugh fired from a 5.5" sixgun with a muzzle velocity of 1,270 fps was right behind it at 52".

The .500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570 grs. came in third at 48", followed by the .458 Win. Mag. with a 500 gr. solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2,260 fps and 47" of penetration. Finally, the .45 Colt with a 350 gr. hardcast bullet at 1,400 fps gave 43" of penetration, or only 5" less than the .500 Nitro and 4" less than the .458.

Of course, the .45 Colt load tested is only for use in the Freedom Arms .454 or custom five-shot .45 Colt revolvers.

Other Cartridges

The .44 Magnum was not really given a thorough testing as the only load on hand was a 250 gr. Keith bullet at 1,200 fps which went 27" into the wet newsprint. At next year's seminar, hopefully we will have a larger variation of .44 Magnum loads to test, especially with 300 gr. bullets at muzzle velocities from 1,200 to 1,400 fps.

We also had only one load for the new .480 Ruger, Hornady's factory offering of a 325 gr. XTP at 1,350 fps. This round is not designed for deepest penetration but did expand well and travel 17" into the newsprint.

How did the truly big bore sixguns compare, the Big Berthas, the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 and .500 Linebaughs? For the .45 Colt, in addition to the already mentioned load, a 310 gr. Keith at 1,250 fps -- one of my favorite loads and safe for use in Ruger's Blackhawk or Bisley -- penetrated 36", while the 300 gr. LBT traveling at 1,180 fps penetrated 2" deeper.

Using Cor-Bon's 360 gr. bonded core at 1,500 fps in the .454 yielded 45" of penetration. Moving up to the .475 Linebaugh, a 420 gr. LBT at 1,335 fps did 47" while the same bullet at an easy-shooting 1,050 fps still penetrated to 40".

We have already mentioned the second-place finishing .500 Linebaugh load. Others from this category of the biggest of the big bores included a 480 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1,200 fps and 41"; a 435 gr. LBT at 1,270 fps, 38"; and a 435 gr. LBT at only 1,000 fps still went 34" into the test medium.

This tells me that for most of us, and the game we pursue, either a .475 or .500 Linebaugh traveling at a relatively sedate 1,000 fps will do anything and everything we could ever hope for.

Actually, we can draw the further conclusion that the .44 Magnum with a 250 gr. bullet at 1,200 fps or a 300 gr. .45 Colt at 1,250 fps will certainly handle any deer that walks -- but then we already knew that!

Now we know with actual experimentation why it is big bore sixguns perform so well on large or dangerous animals including Cape buffalo, elephant, lion and the big bears of Alaska.

The big bore sixguns in this case, from top left clockwise Ruger .44 Magnum Freedom Arms .454 and Ruger Custom .45 Colt.

Ruger Custom .500 Linebaugh and Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh can actually out penetrate most rifles.

"Who says the .500 Linebaugh doesn't kick?"

Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration

.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27""


each weapon system has its strong points and weaknesses,you know when selecting that weapon what your limitations will be, thats hardly means that in skilled hands and under the conditions a trained operator will use those weapons to maximize the advantages each weapon system has, that it won,t be just as effective as any other within its designed operational area.

[color]thats a bit like saying a corvettes faster than a hummer.....well you may be correct on a highway but not always[/color]

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[color]
well theres plenty of places to hunt were a revolver is faster and just as deadly as any rifle, a skilled hand gun hunter can be very effective[/color]
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(an excellent choice if your convinced you need more than a 44 mag, would be the 480 ruger or 445 DWSM)
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an keep in mind, a 44 mag with 310 grain hard cast bullets will kill anything in north america including the largest bears with decent shot placement and a knowledge of the games anatomy
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I wonder how many of those guys who think the properly loaded 44 mag is a EFFEMINATE have ever seriously hunted with one?
yes Im well aware theres zero question that a revolver in some of the hotter 45,475 or 500 caliber cartridges produce more power, but once your punching completely thru game theres more to be gained in my opinion,with precise shot placement and the option of a rapid precisely placed follow up shot than in just pure power.
Ive hunted for decades with a 44 mag and 445 dan wesson super mag , Ive seen several elk killed very dead with a 44 mag revolver.
yeah I can hear the screaming... and while I have zero doubt that the larger calibers hit harder Its been my experience that its precise shot placement thats the key.
while its hardly a really good idea even cape buffalo ,grizzly and polar bear,and elephant have been killed with a 44 mag revolver.
does anyone think a 44 mag with the proper loads can,t punch thru the skull or reach the heart of most north American game at any semi reasonable range you might use a revolver at?
it may not be the most powerful , newest,or glamorous choice but in skilled hands with the proper loads it gets the job done!
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http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44OverWeight.htm
with ANY handgun, correct shot placement and knowledge of the games anatomy is critical to a fast kill.
yes a fast expanding bullet will kill faster and impart more shock if placed into the heart/lung area, but its NOT ALWAYS 100% dependable for and INSTANT DEAD RIGHT ON THE SPOT, of BULLET IMPACT POINT KILL!
a balance needs to be achieved, and in my experience a hard cast bullet has advantages as it usually exits after full penetration, and leaves a good blood trail.
deer-anatomya.jpg


http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... pe=Handgun

theres two very effective routes you can take, personally I prefer the lee 310 grain hard cast over 21 grains of h110 powder sized .431, or .001 over forcing cone diam. cast from 95% ww alloy and 5% tin, as its accurate and penetrates well and almost always exits.
WHEN I was experimenting with the fast expanding bullets the remington 210 grain hollow points over 24 grains of H110 worked very consistently,MOST OF THE TIME, I had mostly very fast kills, but few exited deer. I occasionally had deer run that were found too be hit very well,(yes this happens with riffles as well)
now I had more deer run with the hard cast, but on average the distances were rather consistent and usually well under 40 yards, while the hollow points generally drop deer fast or occasionally your in for a a short tracking job with little or no blood trail.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160142 ... uctFinding


http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/Item/0000690227
If I was going to poke something with a 44 mag revolver that might bite back.
Id select the 310 grain lee every time!

 
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antlers said:
....It seems that if a bullet stays inside of the animal...as long as you penetrate through to the vitals...that all of the energy that is carried by that bullet is expended in the animal, instead of exiting the animal and taking energy with it.

Ive always been rather skeptical, of the idea that having
"all of the energy that is carried by that bullet is expended in the animal, instead of exiting the animal and taking energy with it."
is nearly as useful as having a larger exit or at least TWO open holes in the hide to allow blood to drain, and that the "SECRET" here is knowing the games anatomy and proper shot placement, and the near instant destruction of vital organs rather than any slight increase in total energy transfer.
the fact is that handgun bullets kill by disrupting or destroying tissue, and organ function and blood loss, more similar to archery than what a 270 win or 300 mag does with adding hydrostatic shock and a much larger temporary cavity.
destroy the heart,lungs,liver or a few major arteries death will be rapid but not instant, sever the spine, neck or destroy both shoulder or the brain and you usually drop game nearly on the spot, so I generally try for shots that penetrate thru the central front chest and either enter or exit where they are likely to break a major bone when thats possible... punch the light green area and game doesn,t go far

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WHITETAIL DEER are commonly shot in brush at less than 60 yards even with rifles, a skilled hunter with a revolver, usually has ample chances and the equipment required
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its worked for me for the last 4 plus decades and its worked for everyone else I hunt with
the .44 seems to be about the ideal combination of enough power for anything I'm going to shoot, and manageable recoil. Starting loads for the Casull, with the 335 gr. hard cast, are identical to the max loads in the .44 mag with 325 gr hard cast. This is a load I have complete confidence in for elk.
 
btw Ive done a fair amount of testing bullets shooting them into various back stop mediums.
Id point out that its been my experience that a 44 mag has has limitations with bullets heavier than the 300-310 grain range simply because the cylinder length limits loaded cartridges over all length, and barrel twist rates in some guns that limit how heavy you can go on bullets.
the 300 grain lee and lyman bullets are about the max length that you can load before the bullet volume crimped below the case mouth begins to restrict useable powder space with the slower pistol powders.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417 ... -gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/506726 ... -gas-check

EXAMPLE
ive purchased and tested both these NEI designs and while they have proven to be effective in the longer case 445 dan wesson super mag, they can,t be loaded to enough velocity to markedly out perform the slightly lighter designs in penetration or accuracy ,I linked to above in a 44 mag in my experience.
they do work rather well in the larger 445 dwsm, but not to the extent I feel they pose any huge advantage.
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http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html
If you've heard hand guns just don,t put deer down and a 357 mag is just not up to the task, I can tell you from DECADES OF experience that yes theres a difference, and the 44 MAG PROPERLY is a bit more effective, but the 357 MAG LOADED WITH A GOOD 158 GRAIN SOFT POINT OR THE BULLET I'VE USED FROM NEI (link below)FOR decades is 100% lethal in the hands of a decent shot and you can get complete pass thru shots with decent hard cast bullets in most hand gun calibers suitable for hunting, yes you make a good point that the 357 mag doesn,t always seem to put a deer down with near the authority that as an example a 44 mag does but its been my experience that results are a good deal more about exact shot placement, than any change in caliber, within certain limits.
Ive used both caliber hand guns for 40 plus years
http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=38
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
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a stiff load of blue dot, 2400, OR h110 and this gas check bullet has done the job for decades, but remember shot placements critical with a hand gun
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http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

When I first started hand gun hunting, I had most deer I shot with a 357 mag run a bit then drop, while the deer I,d shot with a 44 mag rarely went nearly as far, but Ive also had both deer and hogs drop on the spot with both hand guns.
and as I became a better and more selective about shot placement, both hand guns seem to work more effectively, try placing your shots thru the green area, think of it as a soft ball sized area between the front legs, if your shot hits there your results will be better, yes some still run, a short distance but its been years since one ran very far.
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back in the early 70s I purchased a S&W mod 27 with a 8 3/8" barrel and loaded it with factory loads to go deer hunting. I was not the worlds best shot, and knowing that I only hunted the areas where I knew the brush to be too thick for there to be much of a chance of even seeing deer past about 50 yards.
Now I found an area where HOGS were fairly easy to find but deer were a bit less common but still available.
I had initially loaded that revolver with 158 grain hollow point factory ammo, and over the first several years I found that the most frequent result, was that once I made a shot, Id spend the next 30 minutes getting down from a tree stand and slowly following a blood trail, but I always found the deer or hog within about 50-80 yards, from the place they were hit!
I didn,t blame this lack or perceived lack of effectiveness on the revolvers power as the bullets, Id used,because they usually zipped thru, the game and obviously produced a fatal wound.
I got into hand-loading because I knew I needed a great deal more practice and hand loads could be made for 1/4 the cost of factory ammo.
I did some research and changed to 170 grain cast bullets,
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bull ... entryID=13
this resulted in me shooting a great deal more and with that practice I gained a good deal of experience and accuracy improved dramatically, I blamed my lack of accuracy,with the factory loads in the first couple years on lack of practice , as the retrieved game was seldom hit exactly where I had aimed.
now my brother-in-law owned a 45 acp govt model and he frequently hunted with me with very similar results, but he got very few exits and at times longer trailing jobs.
we both decided to upgrade,as we both felt the pistols we used were not idea, but we went at the problem in a different way,
we both eventually decided that neither my revolver or the 45 acp pistol he used was the ideal deer hunting tool, but surprisingly my brother-in-law purchased a marlin in 357 mag lever action carbine because he had watched the results I got, with most shots being pass thru and exits, and concluded power was not the problem, and he concluded it was an accuracy issue and had nothing to do with power,
(plus since I was loading 357 mag, he could get FREE AMMO)
and he has used that 357 mag carbine for at least 3 decades with zero complaints.
I figured I might not be hitting exactly where I wanted too but with more practice that would be cured, so I started practicing a great deal more , which eventually got me into bullet casting and reloading, but I also realized that a revolver with a bit more punch would also help, so I purchased a 8 3/8" barrel S&W 44 mag.
the result might be predictable,to most of you guys, in that it took me about two more years to get really effective and accurate with the revolver , while my brother-in-law who purchased a marlin in 357 mag lever action, was instantly much more effective, as his accuracy went from 8"-10" 50 yard groups with the 45acp pistol, to 2" 50 yard groups shot with a 4x scope on his marlin carbine.
he had decided that a hand gun cartridge had plenty of power but its use in a revolver lacked accuracy and control, I decided to stick with the hand gun , and force myself to master the skill required,,but master its use took a great deal of practice and I also decided too hedge my bet by adding a bit more power.
now 35-40 plus years later I look back and its obvious we both made the correct decisions, as he still hunts with that 357 marlin carbine and I still have a 44 mag revolver, but I upgraded to a 10 5/8" barrel version with better sights.
and swapped to a 310 grain bullet, in the 44 mag and started to get consistently better results with a good many DRT kills.
I wondered if it was the power or my skill so after a few decades I started using the 357 mag revolver on hog hunts occasionally, and quickly realized that the 357 was very effective compared to what I used to be able to do with it,in that I now get a good many quick kills, and shooting its very easy, but its not a 44 mag, and its obvious its not hitting as hard.
 
HERES a simple ballistics calculator

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resou ... calculator, you can use to get a good idea on bullet trajectory, but keep in mind the ballistic program energy predicted doesn,t always give you a great idea as to the larger and heavier revolver bullets effectiveness, a 44 mag may not pack impressive energy but the bullet mass and proper placement has many times produced results greater than you might expect.
as an example a 30/30 carbine and a 44 mag revolver can have similar ENERGY , but in my experience they start out about equally effective at closer ranges, yet out at 120-180 yards Ive seen consistently the heaver 300- 320 grain, 44 slugs seem to hit game harder even if the energy predicted is lower, now I,m not saying a 44 mag should be used out past about 120 yards in most guys hands but it sure won,t bounce off game like some guys might have you believe!
obviously hand gun hunting with an iron site revolvers limited by the precision most guys can accurately place a shot to a games vital organs to under 100 yards in most cases, but be aware its not limited to that distance by a lack of ability to deliver a fatal blow.
Ive seen those heavy slugs punch thru 6'-8" aspen trees I placed paper targets on, at well past 100 yards

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=7500

HERE is a good video demonstrating the hunting 44 mag revolvers effectiveness in skilled hands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTeEmNUkjw
 
Idaho said:
Handgun hunting is much like archery hunting, while one person might be very good at 30-40 yds another person might be very deadly at twice that distance, its really up to the shooter/hunter to determine his or her distance.
Out here in the west shots can be a little on the long side so practice out to 100 yds or so & do it from all different positions. The classic off hand shot should be avoided if possible but its great practice in case its necessary.
A cast bullet is very effective & will penetrate way beyond what most jacketed slugs will do. Plus the nose on a cast slug is usually much wider than the same weight jacketed slug. You need both accuracy & penetration when hunting big game, if you come up short on either one you are in trouble.
After using cast slugs for almost 50 years, on everything from mice to bull moose, including African game there's no finer hunting bullet out there. I have taken elk with the Speer Gold Dot 270 gr. 44 slug & it worked great. Another great bullet that isn't a cast slug is the Belt Mountain Punch solid.
This is a 4X4 muley buck that I shot 10 days ago with my 10 1/2" 44 maggie, shot was 97 yds with a 240 gr. cast HP, complete penetration & down. Two of my son's ranged the shot after the kill.
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Dick
 
I got asked how far away a hand gun is an effective tool?
over the last 45 plus years Ive introduced and taught more than a dozen guys how to effectively hunt with a revolver, some guys used 357 mags, 45 lc, 41 mags etc. but the 44 mag has been the most common tool and its effective in skilled hands, the newer more powerful revolvers have a place but even the 44 mag is more than many guys can easily handle effectively.
remember it takes a great deal of practice to become a good shot under field conditions, and learning to hand load is almost mandatory due too the costs that required practice will require.
most hunting handguns use iron sights and compared to rifles, cartridges with much lower velocity, thus the trajectory and the users ability to precisely place shots on a target at an unknown range is rarely great past about 120 yards in most peoples hands.
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Ive used these two bullets almost exclusively, in 44 mag revolvers, either bullet loaded over 20- 21 grains of H110 powder for decades
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417 ... -gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/506726 ... -gas-check

getting more than 1200-1300 fps out of a 8 3/8-10" barrel 44 mag handgun is very easy, and a 300 grain hard cast bullet at over 1100-fps is all that's required to produce a mortal wound, on your typical deer , if your using a hand gun in most cases I find I,m going to limit shots to ranges I feel 100% confident of my hitting my target exactly where I want too and under field conditions,and ranges. there's plenty of guys who are better shots than I am, but I consistently kill game! And At least for me that range where I feel confident making shots, rarely exceeds 70 yards, with 120 yards being a self imposed limit, because off a good rest that's about as far as I can be sure of hitting where I aim. that is the max range I will only approach under rare conditions, the revolver is still deadly but shot placement starts to be a bit iffy!
most of the game I killed in my early years was at very close range simply because I was not sure I could make shots hit exactly where I aimed at first over 20-25 yards, as my skill improved I felt confident out to 40-50 yards and eventually further, I would say 50% of the game runs a short distance once hit but rarely have i needed to track further than 30-40 yards, and a frantic run, of 20-30 yards at most is common.
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun
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Ive hunted deer, elk and hogs for close too ,5 decades,I long ago lost count of kills with my revolvers, don,t get too concerned with the ability of the weapon you choose to do the job, its mostly shot placement not velocity, energy or bullet weight that matters within reasonable limits,and your correctly loaded 44 mag revolver provides the required punch, THAT BEING SAID, the CALIBER, POWER LEVEL AND projectile should be matched to the intended target, YOU SHOULD KNOW YOUR GAME ANATOMY WELL!,and BE able to do the job OF CORRECTLY PLACING A SHOT THRU THE VITALS, and under less than ideal conditions, of range and FROM entrance angles THAT ARE NOT IDEAL,and you must know the games anatomy, and if you can,t consistently place shots accurately under field conditions, what you carry won,t matter much!
MOST GUYS I'VE HAND GUN HUNTED WITH CAN,T CONSISTENTLY HIT A COKE CAN AT MORE THAN 50-70 YARDS
EVEN, THIS LEVEL OF ACCURACY TAKES A GREAT DEAL OF PRACTICE, and if you can,t consistently hit a coke can size target ,you really should not be shooting game beyond that range, you should in my opinion limit shots to the range you can, do so!
YEAH! there's ALWAYS going to be game that's well hit with any bullet design that won,t instantly fall on bullet impact so don,t expect that the result of a well placed hit will always DROP GAME INSTANTLY.
I long ago stopped worrying about game that failed to drop instantly, while id say 30% -40% do drop on bullet impact most deer or hogs hit may run a short distance, and those cast bullets exit about 90% of the time

I would strongly suggest selecting a 6"-10" barrel pistol or revolver for any serious hunting application to maximize velocity and to provide a good sight radias.

http://www.ballistics101.com/357_magnum.php
(while certainly not a power house choice, Or something Id recommend),
in the hands of a skilled hunter I has taken about everything in north America at one time or another)
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/10mm.php
(not bad for a compact auto pistol used for hunting and with proper hand loads certainly useful)
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=10 mm&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/41_magnum.php
(great choice if recoil bothers you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=41 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/44_magnum.php
(without doubt the least expensive and most effective choice for most people)
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/454_casull.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=454 Casull&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.ballistics101.com/460_sw.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=460 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


http://www.ballistics101.com/480_ruger.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.ballistics101.com/500_sw.php
(great choice if recoil does not bother you, provided you hand load )
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=


https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-holographic-sights/
 
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I like a 6- shooter best Too Grumpy.
44 Mag. That's enough Fire Power.
All that's required.

Merry Christmas Grumpy.
 
before someone asked if they can use a 9mm hand gun or 380, 38 special etc, for hunting larger game there's a good reason I suggest the 158 grain 357 mag with at least a 6" barrel,is a reasonable minimum,EXPERIENCE!
AS an example, I would not think a 9mm ,especially if loaded with typical walmart ammo would work well, based on my experience with a friend carlos using a 9mm hi-power on a larger hog, that probably weighed 270 lbs.
Carlos, Allan and I walked up a swamp buggy track in the glades one day and saw a huge hog lying in the muddy tracks,in the saw grass.
my friend assumed the tracked buggy had run over that hog and walked up to within about 10-11 feet from where the hog, was, the darn hog must of been resting and partly deaf, lying in the buggy track, it jumped up to face him, carlos drew his 9mm loaded with 9mm hollow points and started blasting the hog,he hit it at least 7-8 times out of the 13 shot magazine,(bad shot placement but he emptied the pistol) it knocked carlos down and probably would have done a great deal more damage if Allan had not shot it in the head from about 3 feet with a 12 ga loaded with buckshot.
carlos got cuts on both legs while trying to kick the hog off him, requiring dozens of stitches and they got infected keeping him out of work for 3 weeks
We had to rush carlos to the local emergency room !
I was carrying in a tree stand and the whole deal from the time the hog jumped up until Allan dropped it probably lasted 7 seconds.
we spent the rest of the day getting carlos to the emergency room and waiting to find out how bad he was.
glock 20/10mm with aftermarket barrel for more effective cast bullet use/accuracy
img_20180621_181026-jpg.517634



n7h9xd4rr9la1.jpg

READ
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowled ... ntals.html

please understand , even a properly placed shot from a 22lr can kill a deer, but that hardly makes it an effective DEER RIFLE CALIBER
when your selecting a revolver cartridge you should select one that will work under less than ideal conditions, less than ideal angles and at reasonable ranges
 
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Good thing he was not hunting alone. Did Allan shoot the hog while it was on Carlos ... Wow !!

 
allan shot it from about 3 feet away with his shotgun,as the hog tried too back off, and get a better angle of attack, avoiding carlos.s legs after getting kicked in the face , as the hog tried to get into carlos again.
most times hogs run, but every once in awhile you get one that wants to fight if really pissed off and injured



while I've hunted mostly with my 44 mag
Smith-and-Wesson-Model-29-3-10-5-8inch-inch-The-Silhouetteinch-44-Magnum-Revolver_101326702_94292_2625A7053FE24D1D.JPG

Smith-and-Wesson-29-4-DA-44-Mag-Blue-8-375-Target-Hammer-Goncalo-Alves-Grip_101363628_87170_FC95E40FA6BB628E.jpg

445 DWSM
DW445-01.jpg

and lately a S&W 500 mag
17708-DEFAULT-l.jpg

don't think a good shot with a 357 mag
Smith-and-Wesson-Model-686-NO-DASH-SILHOUETTE-357-Magnum-8-3-8inch_101085546_86589_5F1F46D9D4C93690.jpeg

and proper cast bullets can't kill impressively large game with proper shot placement,
use of 158 grain to 175 grain hard cast gas check bullets have proven effective
 
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