some guys need 500hp like I need a hole in my head!

grumpyvette

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
excellent example of what can happen when someone with more money and less brains than controlling 400-500 hp requires are mixed
I frequently get asked too either build guys engine,
(which I do occasionally, IF I like the guy, and hes local, and understands HE will be doing a good deal of the trips to get parts, or be making the trips to drop off and retrieve parts after required machine work gets done, (that my shop can,t do) or I give them a list of parts, and required machine work..
now obviously if you have access to a known combo that produce's the power levels you want thats the smart way to build an engine VS guess work, or trying to randomly assemble parts you think might result in a good combo, now if its something interesting and the guys got a good deal of cash,for the parts and shows an interest in doing and learning HANDS ON, and hes not in a huge rush, and is more concerned with doing things correctly , than just slapping parts together,and hes also willing to do most of the parts acquisition and runs to machine shops, so I know that the projects going thru too completion, and its an interesting build up, I have occasionally built or helped built SOME guys some very nice engines, that produced very impressive power levels ..

but In most cases its far less work on my part, (especially if I'm reasonably sure the guys just B.S'ing VS seriously wanting a well thought thru plan, of action, to suggest a known combo of components, that can be assembled that will result in the power level hes trying to reach. which most guys thank me for, and then basically make so many changes too,.. as they get (DEALS) on cheaper parts, that it no longer bares much if any resemblance to the original concept, I gave them the parts list for, which frequently results in an INFERIOR combo, that may or may not produce the intended power range.
about three years ago I gave one guy a list of components and the usually little talk about , the need to be keeping to the suggested listed components and not substituting parts, that the (inevitable DEALS) would provide, his goal was an honest 450-500hp
now having a car with 450-500hp or more takes a bit of experience to drive and its really fun once you master the skills, but it takes time to do that.
well he substituted a few parts (AS MOST GUYS DO) but he still had a nice combo and he calls me up and tells me hes going to get the engine started very soon, a few days go by and he has got the engine up and running and half way tuned in and he goes out on a local road, on his first drive ever with that engine, and floors the throttle, from a dead stop, and he instantly snaps an axle , and almost finds himself in a canal.
he then has the car towed home,and he replaces the axle, but then he goes out and tries again,, same deal, floors the throttle, on a bonzi launch, resulting in an instantly smoked clutch......after hearing that,.I suggested that he not only might want too replace the clutch and install a blow-proof bell housing, but that he might just want to learn how to actually drive a high power engine, by taking his time and experimenting with the car some place off frequently traveled roads, rather than just assume he can beat on it like his previous 307sbc engine where he could basically stand on the throttle and drive the car without having much in the way of directional control issues, or parts failure.
(you can,t do that with a decent big block engine as it will smoke the tires or clutch or break parts)
now we all started out thinking we know how to drive, but the truth is that it takes EXPERIENCE THATS ONLY GAINED OVER TIME,and some restraint to learn to drive a car with significant hp on streets with street tires and the power and potential ability to instantly reduce traction to a tire smoke cloaked distant memory.

lackoftallent.jpg

heres a good example of what to expect when a less than experienced throttle foot and 500 horse power potential cross paths in the real world.... it takes TIME and PRACTICE to learn to drive a powerful car that can easily turn the tire traction to smoke with the blip of a throttle
these threads might be interesting
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=906&p=1493&hilit=+learning#p1493

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=489

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=1162

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=783

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=771&p=1121&hilit=needs+500hp#p1121

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=486

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=898&p=3239&hilit=pontiac+tempest#p3239

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=3404
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: you need 500hp like i need a hole in my head!

his latest minor issue was a hard launch that resulted in him twisting the center lug section out of a cheap set of aftermarket chrome plated steel wheels, after he had installed slicks and decided that a 3500rpm launch was about ideal...that resulted in the car making a hard turn and destroying part of a neighbor hedge.......after talking with him , Ive hopefully had a positive effect and he will start thinking before acting but time will tell.
OH! you'll love this part, the wheels were well used and the lug holes were worn, so our new hot rodder brazed the holes and redrilled them, never thinking that might ANNEAL the temper in the steel wheel.
 
Re: you need 500hp like i need a hole in my head!

Ummm, how old is this guy?

He seems not to be learning from his mistakes too quickly.
 
Re: you need 500hp like i need a hole in my head!

like most of us at that stage in life hes in his late 20s and knows EVERYTHING
 
Re: you need 500hp like i need a hole in my head!

Thats funny,
Best moments happen with great control not WOT uncontrolled driving :).
That guy is somehow someway stupid, maby he like to be like this.

I like that video, too bad for the left side driver and its car.
 
Re: guys need 500hp like i need a hole in my head!

I got an email with a link, to this older post, asking if I remembered the combo used?
well I might have forgotten some details, its been awhile, but it was basically a 468 cubic inch (.060 over bore 454) big block chevy with #781 oval port heads that he installed , after buying those heads and having a local machine shop , pocket port and deck them, install a set of much better valve springs,and do clearance work required , he had purchased some roller rockers, I think they were some, HARLAND SHARP 1.7:1 that would allow a .650 lift flat tappet cam, a three angle valve job, and 11:1 HYPER-EUTECTIC pistons, from KB, plus a weiand single plane intake, 780 cfm carb, and a crane solid lifter cam, #131441 , 2" long tube headers and a different oil pan, on.
he also had a 12 bolt rear differential with 4.56:1 rear gears in the car with that 4 speed trans, I had made several suggestions but he had had a local machine shop do most of the long lock assembly work.
and most of the parts he purchased at local swap meets, or from the local machine shop.
this was not an especially well thought thru combo but it did make decent power, mostly due to the manual transmission, rear gear and high compression ratio, plus a cam that was really a bit too radical for the application. ( I had suggested a bit less cam)

http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24449

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/csp-s2001/overview/

weiandov.JPG


468df.png

JUST FOR GIGGLES I ASK DD2000 SOFTWARE what the potential was for a similar combo
this might help
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5123

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0 ... ewall.html

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... ewall.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/eng ... ewall.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/eng ... to_08.html

http://www.carcraft.com/projectbuild/45 ... get_build/
 
Re: guys need 500hp like i need a hole in my head!

Here's an update on PHR's budget 468 big-block build-up. I FOUND POSTED, The goal is to put this into our '68 Chevelle and run 11s on pump gas. At first, I thought we could build a 600+hp engine for under $4,500, but unless we resort to swap meet s or used eBay parts, I don't think we can get there. In the past, some readers have been pretty critical of found bargains, so I think we need to stay with all new stuff, except the core (4-bolt Mark IV block, crank, rods).

The assembled heads are Summit's new private-label pieces (2.25/1.88 valves, 308cc runners, 119cc chambers, .300-inch raised ports), which you may recognize as the small square-port Dart Iron Eagles. These are the same ones Vizard used in the Sept. issue, only with the Summit name. He got 675hp using a solid roller cam, a Dominator carb, and lots of valve lift. This new motor will be quite a bit cheaper (by about $2,000), and I think 550 hp is reasonable.

You'll also noticed that I largely resisted the urge to go "Chinese." Some pieces are imports, but the important stuff is US-sourced.

Feel free to comment, ask questions, or offer alternatives. If you do have alternate ideas, please post your part numbers, sources, and real street prices as I have done here. (Mostly Summit and Jegs pricing listed).

Let it fly...

"The Howitzer"—468 BBC Parts List:
Part: Price:
454 Mark IV core $600
KB Hypereutectic pistons, .060-over (10:1 comp) $292.69
Rings: $207.95
Main Bearings: $17.39
Rod bearings: $13.69
Cam bearings: $19.95
Cast iron heads, complete: Summit/Dart $1,291.90/pair
ARP Head bolts: $55.95
Edelbrock Performer RPM Airgap $235.88
ARP intake bolts $24.95
850-cfm “Crate” Speed Demon $459.99
Carburetor stud kit: $3.69
Cam: COMP Magnum 292/292, 244/244 @ .50 $163.69
Balancer bolt kit: $7.95
COMP Pro Magnum lifters $89.95
Timing set: $37.95
PRW 1.8:1 rocker arms $234.50
Pushrods (intake, 3/8 dia.): $56.95
Pushrods (exhaust, 3/8 dia): $56.95
MSD Street Fire HEI $159.99
MSD 8.5 Super Conductor wires $75.95
PRW flexplate $59.50
PRW alum. water pump $94.50
Autolite plugs $27.76
Intake gaskets: $10.95
Head gaskets: $79.90
Exhaust gaskets: $16.95
Gasket set: $58.95
Water neck: $7.95
Expansion plug kit: $14.99
Valve cover breathers $13.76
Timing cover: AAMidwest $14.02
Oil pan: AAMidwest $60.44
Valve covers: AAMidwest $35.52
Engine paint: $5.99

Machine Work
Jet wash block: $95
Block bore & hone: $250
Cam bearings: $40
Deck resurface: $80
"Build-it-yourself" Total: $5,074.09
 
wetvette.jpg

while I have zero information about the picture above its rather obvious,
that the driver lost control of where the c3 corvette was going to have it land in a pond, or swamp.
Ive built and installed a couple dozen engines in cars that were owned by gentlemen,
that previously had never driven any car with serious horse power and almost inevitably,
at some point in the first month they either loose control or get a speeding ticked while they learn the fact,
that you can no longer drive with your foot firmly planted on the accelerator petal, holding it too the floor.
If you stick a serious BBC or even a SBC engine in most reasonably light cars ,
the instantly available engine torque can and will easily overcome the traction limitations of the cars street tires and O.E.M brakes

I'm always amazed at how few guys (even myself ) who really thought things through when they first start in the hobby, about how exactly you access that power curve)
think it through, what are you doing at 2500rpm-4500 rpm, your daily driving or maybe on the highway or maybe passing a different car on the freeway
you rarely have to depress the throttle more than 2/3rds to drive like that, and it only requires about 40hp to maintain cruise speed, at 65 mph in most cars
you'll barely be using any of the potential torque or that power curve in use if your daily driving on the streets in daily transportation,
50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph, when you want to access that power curve your using the car in (performance mode)
I.E. your street racing or impressing a buddy while passing a car or punching it on the freeway on ramp, or reducing tire tread to expensive smoke in some parking lot, (where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power, you don't need nor can you use even 1/2 the potential torque either combo provides at 1/4-2/3rds throttle so in that power range added torque is far less use full, unless your big on throwing gravel and spinning tires from a rolling start at a stop sign.... if you want to smoke the treads off you'll push the throttle down to full on the floor... look at the tach....
(where's the tach then??) (its in that 4500rpm-6200rpm power band)where you'll like having the power.
as RICK, his engine in about a 2000 lb T-bucket produces impressive power but he can briskly accelerate using just 1/2 throttle, if the rpms hit 4500rpm plus, he's in for what could be a basically aim down the highway and hold on ride., sure he has nearly or a bit over 500 hp, but he can barely use it, and rarely can use it if using the car as transportation vs racing.
while its true you may only have 400ft lbs and 250 hp at 2500rpm-3500rpm where you spend 90% of your drive time, you'll rarely use 2/3rds of that power available while you drive, even briskly drive, on the streets, and if racing the rpms on the tach will be noticeably higher,
remember 50-70 hp volks wagons can cruise effortlessly at 70mph,

the problem, some guys have is they forget about the lower rpm driveability issues and select a cam or other components that are designed to produce impressive PEAK power but severely compromise lower rpm driveability, that's not the case with any of the combos discussed here!

as always every choice made is a compromise some where either in your time, wallet or the cars performance or durability
RELATED THREADS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-to-drive-a-really-fast-car.906/#post-27083

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/controlling-the-ponies.11242/#post-50775

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ar-have-freinds-similar-cars.5976/#post-18464

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...best-musclecar-related-memory.2075/#post-5545

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...asonably-fast-in-street-trim.3404/#post-69170

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/selecting-and-building-your-dream-car-combo.1162/#post-2379

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/my-first-really-fast-car-resulting-from-an-engine-swap.898/#post-1494

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/getting-started-in-the-car-hobby.339/#post-415
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top