TBucket 200-4R Transmission Project

DorianL said:
Heh - really very similar that what happened to me. When's next test drive? You def have to hunt down that guy who left tires marks in your driveway. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

The next test drive could be tomorrow if things work out. If I can get off work
tomorrow, then I can go and have the new Mickey Thompson tires mounted.
That will give me the ground clearance I need of about 5 inches, presently it's
about 2-1/2 inches. I have insurance and a new tag now, so I'm covered there.

It appears that the trans in not down shifting as my speed decreases coming to
a stop, so it wants to kill the engine. I can still drive it, but I will have to manually
downshift. When it goes into first gear manually, it hydraulically unlocks the
torque converter.

I wanted to fix the leak before I call BTO with my pressures as they suggest in
the kit for the TV valve. So maybe it has something to do with that, we will see
as soon as I can get to it.

As far as the rubber in my driveway, I have a better idea than hunting this guy down.
I Will Just Put My Mark Over It. :D

 
Not downshifting or TCC not unlocking. The former could well be the TV cable needs to be adjusted. (I still have a performance VB I need to install in mine.)

As for the TCC, what harness are you using?
 
DorianL said:
Not downshifting or TCC not unlocking. The former could well be the TV cable needs to be adjusted. (I still have a performance VB I need to install in mine.)

As for the TCC, what harness are you using?

About not downshifting, it's really hard to tell. I've only driven it 3 blocks and
top speed of 35 mph. All my other experience is while the car is off the ground
testing.

The wiring harness is my own with the TCI vacuum switch. It starts in the middle
of page 15.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...cket-200-4r-transmission-project.7230/page-15

 
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Well I figured out why the torque converter(TC) was always locked up, it was the
idiot that wired it. Couldn't even follow his own wiring diagram :rolleyes:

The black wire that goes from the TCC Solenoid thru terminal D on the trans case
connector, should have a switch wired in the circuit so the driver can manually
lockup the TC. Well I just wired it straight to ground, so as soon as the trans
shifted to 2nd gear it would immediately lock the TC. Hydraulically the trans cannot
lock the TC in 1st gear, so that's why I could downshift to 1st and unlock the TC.

To test my suspicions, I unhooked the ground wire and put some tape on the connector.

The temperature sensor for the trans fluid temp in the pan is only getting to 150°F.
When I get back to the house and use the IR Gun, the highest temp I can find
anywhere on the trans is the TC and it's 165°F

ElectricalDrawingFinal02.jpg

I called BTO with trans pressure like they want in their manual for the TV cable
system I bought of theirs. I think the guy was alittle surprise, because he asked
me if I just put it together and got those pressures or did I adjust the cable. I said,
no I knew they needed to be a few lbs higher with the cable connected compared
to unconnected at the carburetor.

BTO_Pressures_.jpg

I can tell when the trans shifts 1-2, but after that the RPM drop I can't hear or feel.
But it's obviously shifting since I can be doing 50 MPH at about 1200 RPM. But that's
one reason I bought the BTO system, it has an adjustment at the carburetor where
I can set shift timing and feel. I've yet to try the other extreme in adjustment.

FP04_BracketMod_4764.jpg

 
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Rick have you floored the gas hard in the T-bucket yet ?
Line pressure should rise with a heavy right foot.

The Huge Mickey Thompsin 31X16X15 Rear tires are Awesome.
You should be carefull to avoid wheel hop.
It breaks driveline parts.
Like lugnut studs, axleshafts that are stock, Posi pinion spider gears, Ford 9 inch small bore 2.891 " 3rd member case & carrier caps.
And when the rear diff breaks it sends a shockload instant to the Transmissuon.
In the 700R4 & 4L60E it breaks the Rear Low Reverse One way Roller Clutch.
I did it it this past winter in my Suburban by accident.
Rocking to get out of deep snow.
You know when it happens, a huge gunshot Kaboom & it shakes you & entire vehicle.
Luckily I didn't break the rear differential.
Wheelhop has to eliminated if it shows up testing & Racing.
 
87vette81big said:
Rick have you floored the gas hard in the T-bucket yet ?
Line pressure should rise with a heavy right foot.

The Huge Mickey Thompsin 31X16X15 Rear tires are Awesome.
You should be carefull to avoid wheel hop.

I love the flame tread, it looks awesome in my opinion. Well it's the only
opinion that counts!!! ;)

No I have not floored it yet. In fact at this time with the pedal on the floor
it's only about 5/8 throttle by choice.

Any wheel spin so far has not had any wheel hop.

 
Indycars said:
87vette81big said:
Rick have you floored the gas hard in the T-bucket yet ?
Line pressure should rise with a heavy right foot.

The Huge Mickey Thompsin 31X16X15 Rear tires are Awesome.
You should be carefull to avoid wheel hop.

I love the flame tread, it looks awesome in my opinion. Well it's the only
opinion that counts!!! ;)

No I have not floored it yet. In fact at this time with the pedal on the floor
it's only about 5/8 throttle by choice.

Any wheel spin so far has not had any wheel hop.

I broke the 9 inch in my old Lincoln.
Wheelhop.....showing off.
The C6 Auto never broke. Tough like a Turbo 400 trans.
I cracked the Carrier cap on the drivers side in 2.
Kaboom that time too.
How it recieved a 2.47 gear. Was 2.75:1 factory.
460 had gobs of torque. Ran it hard every day for 4 years straight.
Gas was still under $2.00 a gallon.

Ford 9" can take a lot. But Baf wheelhop No...
The 1963 GP Has a much better rear suspension design.
Hooks up nice & Gone fast. 9.3 Rear almost impossible to vreak like a Dana 60.
I tried, never ever broke. Burnouts reading 120 mph on the speedo.
 
I Love the Flame Tread Rear Tires Too Rick.
Want them on my 1963 Pontiac Grand Prix also.
 
Indycars said:
.............

I can tell when the trans shifts 1-2, but after that the RPM drop I can't hear or feel.
But it's obviously shifting since I can be doing 50 MPH at about 1200 RPM. But that's
one reason I bought the BTO system, it has an adjustment at the carburetor where
I can set shift timing and feel. I've yet to try the other extreme in adjustment.
.....

Rick,
what rear gear ratio does that t-bucket differential have ?
and what gear is the transmission in?
that your turning that 1200 rpm at 50 mph?
and what stall speed is your converter?
that seems awfully low rpm for 50 mph even with 31" tires in 2nd or third gear, you must be in OD?
1200 rpm at 50 mph? x 3= at least in theory 150 mph at 3600rpm? yeah obviously somethings wrong!


The 200-R4 has a first-gear ratio of 2.74:1, a second-gear ratio of 1.57:1 and a third-gear ratio of 1:1. It has a fourth-gear ratio of .67:1

As Im sure your aware, and I,m just pointing out, if anyone skimmed thru the thread without really reading, your 200r4 trans is not rated in stock form for the current engines power potential, but Im sure you realized that and upgraded the internals, plus the tires are very likely to loose traction before you start puking parts from massive impact or shock or torque over loads
related info

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=741

http://web.archive.org/web/20070128173316/http://members.aol.com/powerrslid/thm2004r.html
 
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Rick is an Ex Dirt Track Racer I do Recall Grumpy.
Without reading back 2 years I seem to recall the T-bucket having a 3.00- 3.25 : 1 rear gearset in the 9 inch.
Its Rick's Call of Duty.......Drag Race the T-bucket Hard.
Likely A Street Race. He will Happily Oblige. Yes.
31X16X15 rear sticky tires.
Same size used on Pro Stock 5-second drag race cars.
Things may break after spinning....Hookup Fast.
 
Rick told me a few times when I was there that the Ford 9 inch rear end is 3.7:1 gearset.
 
busterrm said:
Rick told me a few times when I was there that the Ford 9 inch rear end is 3.7:1 gearset.

yes that comes out almost perfect in calculations with 31" tires a 3.73:1 rear gear
and a 0.67:1 OD top gear ratio in the trans ,
as it should show near 1350rpm at 50 mph

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcrpm.htm

powerband.png

in a drive train set up for max efficiency the converter stall speed , and rear gear ratio will match the engines power curve and will be set up to have the trans let the converter spin up and grab at the lower end of the power band, and too shift to match the upper end to the most effective part of the torque curves upper end (a )and the transmission shift point will be set up near the upper end of the torque curve but past the peak power (b) set up that way, the engine can transfer power during the vast majority of its operation at near peak torque levels ,looking at this engines power curve charted above ,that would be about a 3200rpm stall speed and about a 6400 rpm shift rpm point

transgearsd.png

in most cases youll want the transmission first gear x the rear gear ratio to fall in the 10:1-10.5:1 range and the cruise rpm at 70 mph on a street driven car to fall at a semi-reasonable rpm level where your NOT buzzing the hell out of your cars engine in top gear, but with an over drive transmission you might find OD places the cars cruise rpm below the converter stall speed, this is rarely a problem, as long as you have a decent trans fluid cooler and make reasonable choices, in components.
a good compromise obviously will require some measurement of your tire diam. and a few calculations

the 200r4 first gear=2.74 x a 3.73 rear gear =10.22, or about ideal, for a performance cars drive train, but lets look further, if you have that trans and 31" tires this is what swapping to a 4.11:1 rear gear does
if you stay with the 3.73:1 rear gear ratio 2830 rpm in third gear, and OD 2100rpm at 70mph
if you swap with the 4.11:1 rear gear ratio 3113 rpm in third gear, and OD 2320rpm at 70mph
200r4tr.png



http://www.wallaceracing.com/gear-speed.php
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcrpm.htm
http://www.race-cars.net/calculators/et_calculator.html
http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/whentoshift.htm
http://www.frontrange4x4.com/forums/sho ... nformation
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... to_01.html
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... index.html
http://www.tciauto.com/tc/gear-ratios
http://web.archive.org/web/20070128173316/http://members.aol.com/powerrslid/thm2004r.html
 
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At 130mph areodynamics become important .
High speed handling traits.
150 mph is Super Hero Territory in a vintage T-bucket like Ricks.
The guys from the Gasser era in 1960's were 16-34 years of age.
Dieing not a worry back then & Young.
Safety equipment was just a driving helmet & leather jacket.
Most never used seatbelts.

What's Rick's T-bucket supposed to run Grumpy ?
High 9's ?
 
87vette81big said:
At 130mph areodynamics become important .
High speed handling traits.
150 mph is Super Hero Territory in a vintage T-bucket like Ricks.
........

What's Rick's T-bucket supposed to run Grumpy ?
High 9's ?


what the T-bucket might be physically able to do,from a power to weight stand point, and what you should realistically expect,from a realistic safety standpoint, will be radically different due mostly to reasonable limitations like a lack of a roll cage, wheelie bars,a well tuned race suspension,and what most tracks safety guys will allow you to drive down a track, (most tracks won,t allow a car without a roll cage,battery and fuel disconnects, and trans scatter shield, drive shaft loops, etc. to crack off the times that car is potentially capable of reaching before they ban it) plus its current suspension is a suspension set up for street driving, and to race, effectively , he would require slicks etc. as the current street tires won,t allow the engine to apply full power to the pavement,or get good traction, and without wheelie bars and a race suspension hard 3200rpm launches might be dangerous.
Id sure expect the car ,in its current condition to rather easily run mid 11 second too low 11 second times once its tuned up and Rick gets used to driving it with few other mods done, like possibly the need for slicks or wheelie bars and a good deal of practice launching the car,and setting the transmission up to shift at about 6300rpm,, and yes low 10 second runs are something the cars able too do from a power to weight perspective with further suspension,and tire mods and a few minor engine mods, if the weight he stated is close to correct because I know roughly the power the engine should produce, having built similar engines in the past.
obviously if Rick WEIGHTS the car in its current condition with him in it and a full tank of fuel it gives us a more accurate place to calculate from , and he should have little problem reaching and exceeding 400 plus rear wheel horsepower

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php
 
Modern Mickey Thompson tires are Superior to nearly anything else made Grumpy till you get into the 1500-4000-8000HP Power range.
They don't look like much but with a mild 15 second burnout they Hook Hard & Fast.
I am worried Rick is going ti break an axle shaft or similar.
Entire T-bucket depends upon the front suspensuon & Rear Differential for safety.
Nothing else there.
Only vehicle less complex is a Slingshot Dragster.
Modern ET tires & M/T Drag radials are capable of sub 6-second times at over 200mph today..
10-1/2" wide 29 "inch tall rear tire.

I bpught the 3rd set of M/T 27560R15 Madeback in 2005.
Newly released. Put them on my TA. Comp Engineering Slide A Link traction bars.
Killer traction.
 
grumpyvette said:
Rick,
what rear gear ratio does that t-bucket differential have ?
that your turning that 1200 rpm at 50 mph?
and what stall speed is your converter?
that seems awfully low rpm for 50 mph even with 31" tires in 2nd or third gear, you must be in OD?
1200 rpm at 50 mph? x 3= at least in theory 150 mph at 3600rpm? yeah obviously somethings wrong!

Busterrm is right, I have a 3.7:1 rear end ratio.

The 1200 RPM I posted is a very approximate RPM. My head is 20 inches above
the tachometer, so it's hard to read like that. AND I'm also guessing at the MPH,
since the speedometer does not work.

Stall speed is rated at 2800 RPM, which seems to work OK at the stop lights. It
pulls at little, but seems to be much like a stock automobile in this regards.

 
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Did my 1st filter change for the new 200-4R transmission. I had the regular
trans filter in the pan, but I also installed the Wix Inline Magnetic Filter
#58964 for extra filtration. I wasn't sure how much the magnet
would help, since the trans has a significant amount of aluminum. But it
sure stopped alot more clutch plate friction material than the pan filter.

The pan filter seems to only stop big chunky material.

I knew it would take me an hour or so, so I put a stock pan on while I was
doing my other shit.

FP01_OldPanDuringChange_5354.jpg
FP01_WixMagneticInlineFilter_5363.jpg
FP01_WixMagnet_5361.jpg
FP01_WixInlineFilter_5365_5366.jpg
FP01_WixMagnet_5361.jpg
FP01_TransFilterOpened_5357.jpg
FP01_WixPanFilterInternalConstruction_5359.jpg
FP01_PanMagnets_4890_5353.jpg
FP01_MagneticDrainPlug_5350.jpg










 
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Rick it s hard to tell from here from your pictures today.
Does the metallic particles feel sharp between your finger tips when rubbed around ?
Or soft like powder ?
I dont recall, did you use Red Alton Frictions & Kolene Salt bath treated steels in your 200R4 ?

Some transmissions wear more than others, depends upon its design & how it synchronizes shifts between gears.
200R4 I am not very familiar with other than your T-bucket build.

700R4 I know well. All has to be perfect inside.

Turbo 400 I think you could shoot it with a 44 Magnum & it would still work. Bullet proof tough. Over Engineered Experts say.
 

No Kolene steels and only the band is Alto.

There is a small amount of metal debris, but mostly clutch plate friction material.

 
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