TBucket 200-4R Transmission Project

Omg, I thought I could sling BS pretty good! You two are in the pro category! :lol:
 
Glad to see this project is moving forward. Triple check everything! Getting it wrong and having to pull the trans out again is a REAL pita!
 

If I keep holding off until I have everything I need to post in a logical order, I will most likely forget details that could be important. So I'm going to start with some of the more complicated modifications that I have completed, which are in the middle of the trans.

Also it's actually the 3rd document I have created for the machine shop, but oh well. It's also has the most steps and most complicated modification so far, that was thought about by both Buddy and myself over a couple of weeks. I also had a phone conversation with Chris Kokkonis at CK Performance (CKP) that I recorded and played back for Buddy. After all this we came to a final decision, but I will have to share this particular modification in another post, I still have some info I want to confirm with Buddy to make sure I have the correct information.

From here forward I will try to do the following things that will help anyone working on a 200-4R:

1.) If you see a 3 digit number, then this refers to the ATSG manual ID numbers for every part and I mean every part. The CK Performance book uses the same illustrations.

2.) If it relates to one of my documents, then I will try to reference that step number for more info.

3.) I will add dimensions for machining.

Note: There have been changes to the CK Performance book, that would have caused problems or maybe a failure if I had not had a conversation with Chris Kokkonis. The book is several years old and Chris has made changes to the dimensions of his parts, that would have put the transmission is a bind.

For example, the book gives the wrong dimension for shortening the shaft journal to 0.5”.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=7230&start=60

You can buy the roller thrust bearings from Chris, but I doubt he would be willing to give you part numbers so you could buy them locally. The roller bearings being used are from others transmissions, so there is no book you or anyone at the parts store can reference to get the right bearings. I have not seen this documented anywhere on the internet. The only reason I have part numbers is because Buddy also has a transmission shop and would look thru his inventory until he found one with the right dimension. Then he would document the part numbers on the instructions I left for him.

I used his hand written notes and my conversation when I picked up the parts to add all the notes you see highlighted in GREEN.

Below is all four pages of the 3rd document to Precision Machine:

PrecisionMachineInstr03b-Pg01.jpg

PrecisionMachineInstr03b-Pg02.jpg

PrecisionMachineInstr03b-Pg03.jpg

PrecisionMachineInstr03b-Pg04.jpg



Below are to two books that I’m using and will be referencing.

Manuals_ATSG_CKP_3470.jpg

Below is an example of the parts diagram with ID numbers. Notice part ID# 537, also called the Center Support, you will see it a lot in the next several pictures.

Illustration3C-1.jpg
CenterSupportFrontFaceMod01_3438.jpg
CenterSupportFrontFaceBearingCompare_3468.jpg
CenterSupportFrontFaceModCloseup_3441.jpg
Below covers several steps that are pretty straight forward. See the document for more info.


Steps_1,7,12_3444.jpg

Download the document to Precision Machine below. If I make changes I will try to update the document in this link.
Previous downloads = 2.




 

Attachments

  • PrecisionMachineInstr03b.pdf
    219.9 KB · Views: 50
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WOW! great post keep the details and diagrams coming, this threads beginning to be very impressive! and quite useful, as a teaching aid!
 

Everything below pertains to Step 3 in my documentation above.

RearThrustFaceMod01_3435.jpg
RearThrustFaceCompare01_3436_3437.jpg



The original plastic thrust washer measured .064” thick. The new roller thrust bearing
measured .143” thick , therefore the pocket was machined .079” deep. The OD was
cut 2.888” to match the new roller bearing and the ID was cut flush against the
bushing journal OD.

RearThrustFaceMod02_3436.jpg
RearThrustFaceMod04_3438.jpg
RearThrustFaceMod03_3439.jpg




 
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I was concerned with the wear shown on the Direct Clutch Housing 604, that it
would need replacing. But Buddy made it better by TIG welding it with a high
strength rod and grinding it to fit.

DirectClutchHousingTIGWelded_3423.jpg
DirectClutchHousing&SunGearShell_3425.jpg


 
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According the CKP book (Pg 60), if the transmission is going to be used behind an engine
that revs over 5500 rpms, an .060" bleed hole should be drilled at a 45 degree angle through
the bottom of the housing. This dimension didn't seem to be critical since you don't really
have to do this, therefore we went with a #56 drill bit. Another factor was being able to
get down into that corner and Buddy had 6 inch #56 drill bit, so that's what we used.

Have you ever tried to drill with a very small drill bit of .0465", it will wobble and bend
terribly. You just cannot put much force on that small of a drill bit. Buddy puts a small
brass tube from the hobby shop or straw over it to keep it from wobbling to much.

It took him 30 minutes to drill that tiny hole.

DirectClutchPresReliefHole_3426.jpg

DRILL CHART FOR YOUR REFERENCE, IT GOES ALL THE WAY TO 1 INCH IF YOU USE THE LINK:

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-drillsize.htm

Drill Chart.JPG

 
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The modification for this roller thrust bearing was by far the most complicated to
understand and it will be the hardest to explain.

The plastic thrust washer ID was large enough that the Center Support (537) rear
journal could extend thru it. The roller bearing ID is smaller than the Center Support
(537) rear journal, therefore it will have to been shortened enough that it no longer
extends far enough to contact the roller bearing. We chose .020” clearance, enough
to cover thermal expansion. Also it will be necessary to make sure that the rear
journal ID has a small amount of clearance to the TIG weld on the Forward Clutch (618).
Therefore a chamfer on the ID maybe required, much like it was before it was cut off
to shorten the rear journal of the Center Support.

Machining Required:

• Shorten the rear journal until it is .020” below the Direct Clutch (604).
This will require shortening the rear journal about 3/16 of an inch.

• Machine a 45° chamfer on the ID of the rear journal of the Center Support (537)
if needed to clear the TIG weld on Forward Clutch (618).

• Machine just enough to create a perfectly flat surface for the roller bearing to
ride against in the Forward Clutch (618). This required a .010 inch cut on the CK
Performance piece.


NOTE: THE DOCUMENT WITH ALL THE INSTRUCTIONS HAS
BEEN CHANGED AND CAN BE DOWNLOADED ON PAGE 9:


PlasticThrustWasherThickness_3264.jpg
ForwardClutchStep6a01_3409.jpg



In the picture below, I'm trying to show how the Center Support (537) extends up
thru the Direct Clutch Housing (604). The red and green dot surfaces rotate
together depicted by the black bar between them. Also the the black dot surfaces
are all part of the Direct Clutch and rotate together.


DirectHousing&CenterSupportAssembled_3406.jpg
CenterSupportToForwardDrumInterface_3477.jpg


Below is the pertinent text from the document.

6.) Determine what thrust bearing to use on the CKP billet forward clutch drum (618) and machine Center Support (537) rear bushing journal to accept new thrust bearing thickness.
The roller thrust bearing is .010” thicker than the plastic washer and considerably wider. The Center Support would interfere with the roller bearing since it can no longer extend up thru it, so to accept the roller bearing the Center Support rear journal required machining to reduce it’s length, sinking it .020” below the Direct Drum. The rear journal was shortened by about 3/16” to accomplish this. The taper on the ID of the rear journal had to cut again. This may vary with each transmission and needs to be checked with modeling clay to verify there is a small amount of clearance between the rear journal and the TIG weld on the forward drum.
Plastic thrust washer thickness = 0.142”.
Roller thrust bearing thickness = 0.152”.
Roller thrust bearing OD = 2.157”.
Roller thrust bearing ID = 1.577”.
Center Support Journal OD = 1.745”.
Part #: 61493 OEM#: N/A


6a.) Machine forward clutch drum for needle bearing.
Buddy removed about .010” to make the surface flat everywhere. The surface starts at the TIG weld (ID) and continues across until you reach the raised surface (OD).
 
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This is the last post concerning document #3 that went to Precision Machine. All the
steps I didn't cover were simply replacing a bushing and polishing the journals on the
Forward Clutch (618). CKP had touched the inner journal with the TIG welder and
they still had machining marks on both journals. Bushings require a very smooth surface
to ride on.

Step #11 used a bushing from the pump to replace the bushing in the Direct Clutch (604).

RearBushingInDirectClutchHousing_3473.jpg


 
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Not in my document #3 for Precision Machine, but got done anyway during the same
time since the Direct Clutch (604) was there.

For better performance the CKP Intermediate Band (601) is 7/16" of wider or 23.3% more
surface area to fully utilize the available space.

Since the OEM band wear pattern was not as wide, Buddy (Machinist) worked the area
to make it flat and create a surface compatible with the CKP band material with is
different than the OEM band. While he had it mounted in the machine, he checked it
for runout. I don't remember what he said, other than it was acceptable.

DirectClutchSurface_3464.jpg
CKP_InterBand_3467.jpg


 
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the more I read thru this thread and re-read it the more I,m beginning to think I want you to build me a 4l80E with full manual control at some point, when finances allow, your attention to detail and willingness to tackle new projects is simply amazing and very impressive!
I can,t begin to tell you the number of times I suggest dirt simple mods be made to cars and guys look at me like Im totally insane, for even suggesting that guys get into doing anything except direct parts swaps with off the shelf parts.
guy! about 50% of all the things you can do to improve performance are based on common sense, and improving the efficiency of parts or reducing restrictions to flow or reducing weight, yet in many guys opinion it might as well require secret black magic spells rather than a few hand tools and some common sense. and a bit of work.
a great many of the things you can do to modify a cars engine, transmission or suspension will appear to individually make little or no improvement by them-selfs but the net effect DOES have a measurable effect on the car. little things like port matching, cylinder head bowl clean-up or smoothing runner entrances, de-burring fuel fittings or using larger fuel fittings with less restriction might not show up as major gains on a dyno, but they make the engine and car faster,or more durable,yeah! maybe not huge gains, bye them selfs but all those hundreds of a second gains add up!
your transmission mods may not look all that impressive to some guys but its sure to make the transmission last longer and damn few (PERFORMANCE BUILDERS OF TRANSMISSION'S" will have taken the time and effort to do 1/3rd of what youve done,
CONGRATS ON DOING THE JOB CORRECTLY,SO FEW PEOPLE BOTHER!


heres a common example, basic intake port clean-up for better performance
I can,t tell you how many times Ive shown guys how to modify the stock tunnel ram or holley efi stealth ram intakes to port match runners or UN-restrict runner entrances, and its like Im asking many of then to walk on water , they just can,t believe that a normal guy can work MAGIC and increase the intakes flow rates

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1745&p=4378&hilit=+stealth+porting#p4378

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=462&hilit=porting+help

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5175&p=26031&hilit=porting+help#p26031

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5378&p=20984&hilit=porting+help#p20984
 
I enjoy tinkering on the 200-4R... it's the dropping and reinstalling that's a XXXXX.
 

So many pieces need a helping hand, so this is some of what I'm up to lately. Then I
label them if they need it, apply WD40 and Zip Lock them for assembly later.

DirectClutchPistonDebur01_3535.jpg
DirectClutchPistonDebur02_3536.jpg
DirectClutchPistonSeals_3534.jpg

 
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A couple of modifications that I could do myself was increasing the diameter of the hole
for better oiling and cooling. I was a bit surprise that #636 drilled so easily.

FrontCarrier#636Mod_3393.jpg
FrontInternalGearMod_3397.jpg

 
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I,m thinking that theres a point, if your doing more than slightly enlarging the existing 12 holes, where increased number of added holes could potentially weaken the structural integrity of the part more than the extra oil flows potential cooling helps.
I just can,t visualize 12 existing small holes being enlarged a bit, not providing adequate cooling as pressurized trans fluid will already flow any place its required.
in fact Id have limited drilling holes to one about every 45 degrees or about 8 max. but I freely admit I'm much more familiar with engine builds than transmission rebuilds, so its probably best to get info from several experienced performance transmission re-builder,s familiar with your particular transmission.
 
I agree with grumpy on that, depending on how many recesses there are I would like maybe increase to like 20 and offset them same spot every other recess, so the holes are not all in the same spot around the circumference.
 
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