the 458 caliber rifles

[grumpyvette]

some guys feel an attraction to owning a rifle that's got some serious punching power and I'm afraid I'm one of those poor souls.
most of my hunting rifles are .30 caliber or larger and I've got a strong tendency to grab a .338-.458 caliber and something throwing a 250-550 grain bullet, on anything like a serious hunt!
if your willing to use cast lead alloy projectiles keep in mind that the larger the bullet diameter the lower the ratio of surface area to mass is likely to be , and the 458 caliber is the largest
youll have, a great many more options if you handload !
you certainly don,t need to load a 458 caliber rifle to its full potential for every type of game.
if your using the larger capacity, commonly available smokeless powder rifle cartridge caliber's,
theres no game in north america that a well placed 180 grain-220 grain bullet from a 30/06 can't easily kill
theres lots of larger calibers,
but their popularity is rather restricted in comparison to the .45 caliber rifles.
keep in mind thats a significant difference between a rifle thats 100% lethal in skilled hands and one that will shoot cleanly through and exit almost any animal from almost any reasonable angle through the vitals,at ranges under 150 yards.
now shot placement is always critical as is a knowledge of the games anatomy, but I've surely noticed that the 45 calibers get the games instant attention on bullet impact , far more often than the 30 calibers.
both may be 100% lethal in skilled hands but seeing the games instant reaction is confidence building
theres something a bit impressive with seeing a rifle that will shoot thru a thick tree trunk, or shoot thru a deer end to end, and theres little doubt that the larger rifles both look and hit in a way that impresses most people.
I don,t see why more guys don,t take their big bore rifles out hunting especially with reduced loads.
Ive used both my 450 marlin, 45/70, 458 win and 458 LOTT with what amounted to hot 45/70 power level loads and cast gas check bullets, or the fairly cheap,350 grain hornady or remington and speer, 405 grain jacketed bullets, on many deer hog and even a few elk hunts.
theres no need to use max loads even on elk, with a 45/70 or 458 win or 458 lott, and the rifles do a fine job even with reduced loads.
personally I like the 458 win when used at a bit less than most factory ammo power levels , Ive found it works quite well loaded with 405 remington bullets launched at about 2000fps.
now you might be thinking that a 450 marlin or 45/70 might be loaded to those power levels in some rifles and while that might be true, its pushing the limits in a 45/70 or 450 marlin in many rifles,
but the 458 win rifle loaded to that velocity 2000 fps velocity with that 405 grain bullet has done a really good job in my experience, at well under its rated pressure and velocity limits
I load my 450 marlin to a 1800fps level with the same bullets and either cartridge makes a very deadly hunting rifle, but if you like bolt actions I think the 458 wins the better choice if your looking for max power and penetration with only those two choices
Now according to most gun magazine writers the 458 win, went obsolete shortly after they promoted the 458 Lott.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog...rfire/CZ+550+American+Safari+Magnum+.458+Lott
you certainly not going too need a 458 lott or 458 win to hunt elk, but both rifles hand-loaded
to hot 45/70 power levels make excellent thick timber elk rifles where range under 200 yards are the rule and a 400 grain bullet at perhaps 1800 fps-2200 fps make a very effective elk hunting rifle

I would not go that far in proclaiming the 458 wins. demise, but I would buy a 458 LOTT caliber rifle rather than a 458 win if your only going to own one 45 caliber stopping rifle if Africas on your list of hunting areas,simply because the 458 lotts a bit more versatile if you hand load in my opinion, and its easily able to push the heavier 500-600 grain projectiles a bit faster than the 458 win. yet if your realistically hunting only in north America, I can,t think of a single place that a 450 MARLIN caliber BLR would not be my preferred rifle choice, I certainly would rather face a charging brown bear with a 450 marlin BLR properly loaded with 405 soft points , than a bolt action or single shot 458 win. simply because your only going to get one or two shots in a close range encounter and the 450 marlin BLR is fast accurate and handy to use and has more than enough power with properly placed shots. and a second or third shot will be easier with lower recoil and a lever action.
https://kahntrol.com/clamp-on-muzzle-brake/

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_all.asp?CaliberID=158

http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=158

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/61416

the best load I found so far is not near the max level, its a 405 grain remington, bullet over a 215 fed primer and 50 grains of IMR3031
1.5" 3 shot groups are very common, with that load.
my rifle looks very similar to this picture I found posted

factory ammo costs between $1.60-$3.00 a shot, reloads would be less than $.70 to as low as $.50 each, on average
saving $15-30 a box of 20 cartridges will pay for the loaded ammo and reload equipment fairly quickly... especially if you get a deal on some used reloading press and powder scale etc.
over the past 5 decades Ive purchased and used and occasionally sold off or traded off dozens of different rifles,
now I rarely regret selling or trading off rifles, as I generally won,t do that with any rifle I find to be particularly useful,
unless I found and tested and own something I think is significantly better at a particular application.
now that does not mean the rifle I traded off or sold may not be 100% functional or accurate, only that I found something similar,
I personally think was better suited to my needs.
example
I purchased a marlin 444 and found it worked really well, but after a decade or so I purchased a very similar,marlin 45/70,
and that 444 marlin found a new owner, I found that a good bit of the 444 marlins perceived lack of accuracy,
was the result of the scope and mount I had on it.
but the 45/70 was more effective, so I did not really regret selling it as it went to a friend that really likes it and takes good care of it.
but after I purchased a browning BLR in 450 marlin I sold my marling 45/70 and had no regrets,
truthfully a 444 marlin will do almost anything the browning BLR can do and the difference in power or accuracy while obviously there,
and demonstratable,is not so significant that, the rifles can not be used interchangeably in most cases, for hunting similar game.
so why change? well its mostly personal preference in my case I like the box magazine, smoother, forward locking lug action,
and slightly better accuracy I get with the browning BLR, and I like the option of a 400 grain jacketed or cast gas check 458 diam bullet at near 1900 fps.
so why change? well its mostly personal preference in my case I like the box magazine, smoother, forward locking lug action,
and slightly better accuracy I get with the browning BLR,
and I like the option of a 400 grain jacketed or cast gas check 458 diam bullet at near 1900 fps.
if I hunt thick timber for deer or elk where ranges seldom exceed about 200 yards I find my 450 marlin caliber Browning BLR,
exceptionally effective if I want more power and range the 458 win or 458 lott certainly provide that option,
but Ive yet to see the need, for more power as the 450 marlin BLR with a hard cast bullet ,shoots clear through an elk at even longer ranges


https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...marlin-325-grain-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-20

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...458-diameter-300-grain-hollow-point-box-of-50

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009930320/hornady-reloading-brass-450-marlin-box-of-50

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/713164/rcbs-3-die-set
Re: 450 marlin handloads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Lott

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/the- ... ter-magnum

http://www.shakariconnection.com/458-caliber-rifle.html

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/458wm.html

http://www.all4shooters.com/en/articles ... mmunition/

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured ... index.html

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/458 Lott.pdf

458 lott.........-375 H&H ..................458 win

BTW 80 grains of VARGET powder a 215 fed primer and a 540 grain cast bullet sized .459 works decent in the 458 lott

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... le&Source=

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/u ... 232013.pdf

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... nd-Musings

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=157

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/

http://www.nosler.com/458-winchester

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=11004&p=48594#p48594
1. 540 grain FP GC, 15 Brinell alloy, sized .460, 74 grains WW 748 (lightly compressed charge), WLR primer, 3.3 inch OAL, velocity 1870 fps. Groups: 1.23, 1.09

2. 540 grain FP GC, 15 Brinell alloy, sized .460, 74 grains WW 760 (lightly compressed charge), WLR primer, 3.3 inch OAL, velocity 1700 fps. Groups: 0.8

3. 540 grain FP GC, 15 Brinell alloy, sized .460, 46 grains AA 5744 with one packing peanut, WLR primer, 3.3 inch OAL, velocity 1750 fps. Groups: 1.65

read the linked info below, this is why a hard cast 550 grain bullet pushed from a 458LOTT has excellent penetration

PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS
The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

- Randy Garrett

 

[grumpyvette]

I just can,t see why the 450 marlin caliber is not more popular, all the 45 caliber rifles when matched to the proper bullet weight, provide excellent penetration,
look its basically a lever action rifle cartridge that provides the user with assume power levels in a fast repeat action with a reasonable trajectory that will handle anything in big game hunting out to about 250 yards in skilled hands and easily 70%-80% or more of ALL big games killed at less distance, load this cartridge up with hard cast bullets in the 350-400 grain weight range and you duplicate some of the hot loads that most guys use in modern 45/70s, accuracy's usually very good, penetration and stopping powers great, so whats not to like here? yes IM aware that the 450 marlins basically a duplicate of the 45/70 with hot hand loads,thats basically true, but the fact remains that the browning BLR is a stronger locking bolt system than a marlin and the 450 marlin caliber is available in a BLR while the 45/70 is not!

now Ive owned both and still own the 450 marlin BLR, the BLR is a GREAT choice in my opinion, and getting 1900 fps form a 400 grain hard cast slug in a BLR is just not that difficult and makes it a really effective ELK rifle for the thick timber, Ive used the 45/70 to kill ELK and the 450 marlin is SLIGHTLY superior in my opinion in both accuracy and speed of hitting the target (ease of handling) I know its going as my back-up thick timber rifle next year.
its been many years since Ive killed an elk at ranges over 250 yards so its not likely the trajectory is to be a handy-cap in any place I hunt
YES IM AWARE THE 7MM MAG AND 300 MAG GUYS MIGHT BE HAVING A CONNIPTION FIT, but the truth is wither they admit it or not that 250 yards is about the max range most games shot at.

the BLR has front dual cam locking bolt similar to any normal bolt action vs the marlins rear locking single locking lug

The BLR is not really a lever action. It might be described as a bolt action operated with a lever. The fore section of the bolt rotates and locks as a bolt action would. Some would say this system makes the action stronger than Marlin,

Also, the BLR's action is gear "driven" while the Marlin is operated by the brute force of the lever acting integral of the bolt.

However, the BLR's action is inherently more accurate than the Marlin's action simply because it locks at the head of the bolt while Marlin's action locks at the rear of bolt.
both actions are strong but the BLR is both stronger and more rigid

I already made that choice, I sold my marlin 45/70 after my first hunt using the 450 marlin BLR, now I can no more select a rifle that feels good in YOUR hands than I could select a good wife for you, but the BLR suits me perfectly.
now I hand load so loading the 450 marlin down to 44 mag levels or up to its full potential is an option, but I normally use it as an elk/deer rifle loaded with 405 grain Remington bullets at about 1800fps, where its at its full potential.
obviously that load has noticeable recoil, but Ive never needed more that one or two shots with a 450 marlin or a 45/70 so its not like your at a bench rest beating yourself to death shooting several boxes at a session.
and at the range a recoil pad in your vest makes it very easy to handle the recoil.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00094330110
and if your absolutely convinced you need more range the BLR comes in a dozen calibers like 270 win,300 win, and 30/06, 358 win etc.
my late hunting partner RON, used a BLR in 358 win for 20 plus years and killed over a dozen elk in that time, he felt it was the ideal elk rifle, but the 450 marlin caliber is a true HAMMER on GAME, when you know anatomy and can shoot accurately

btw theres several versions

Ive never recovered a hard cast 45/70 slug from an elk , but Ive dressed out several over the years and seen the results both in reaction to bullet impact and later with internal damage, during dressing the elk out, theres ZERO to worry about as far as lethality ,in my experience, keep in mind those 458 diam. slugs are going in already as large as many 270-30 caliber bullets expand too,and Ive yet to see an elk hit in the vitals with one travel very far.
theres no comparison between a 44 mag hard cast 240 grain launched at maybe 1200fps-1400fps(1050 ft lbs)(.145 sq inches of frontal area) and a 400 grain launched at 1700fps-2200fps (4300 ft lbs)(.165 sq inches of frontal area)
and yeah! you can definitely hear those slugs impact and go whistling out thru the brush behind the target

http://www.urban-armory.com/diagrams/brngblr.htm

http://www.urban-armory.com/diagrams/mar1895.htm

they chamber the BLR in 7mm mag and 300 win mag, the marlin can,t handle those pressure levels

http://www.browning.com/products/ca...ghtweight-stainless-with-pistol-grip-firearms

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...for-a-decent-hunting-rifle-for-deer-elk.1133/

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/ ... /1895M.asp

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.450+Marlin.html

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... s-firearms

http://www.gunwalker.com/450marlin/handloading.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm

http://www.nosler.com/Reloading-Data/45 ... rains.aspx

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=1275

 

[grumpyvette]

I just got a call last week, from one of my elk hunting buddy's who tried my BLR in 450 marlin,at the range, and called to say the darn-dist thing happened to him, seems he visited a local gun shop, the guy was getting in a new shipment of BLRs and he mentioned he had a 450 marlin.....well it seems that he has no recollection of what transpired, but he later found that the 450 marlin BLR had followed him home by sneaking into his cars trunk along with a 2.5 x heavy duplex reticule scope, as most of us know those BLRS , SAKOS, AND WEATHERBYS can be sneaky S.O.B.s I know I have had similar things happen over the years.

I get asked why I prefer the 450 marlin caliber BROWNING BLR over the MARLIN 450 rifles, well I just feel a good deal safer using a BROWNING BLR because the browning locks up with a front rotating bolt like a bolt action rifle and its action is also chambered in hot rounds like a 300 win mag, the marlin action is a rear locking action and
designed to handle about 45K psi while the BLR can handle 55K PSI pressure easily.
obviously this was destroyed by greatly excessive pressure ,
I've used lots of hotter 45/70 ,
factory and hand loads and never seen any marlin fail.
48 grains of VARGET or IMR 3031 powder ,
under a gas check 405 grain hard cast bullet,
in a 45/70,
OR 43 grains of IMR 4198 or RL7
gas check 405 grain hard cast bullet,
in a 45/70,
under a will effectively drop any elk
(from decades of experience) and produce moderate and totally safe pressure and good velocity
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...-70&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source

I don,t know what load or problem could cause this damage to a marlin action but I have seen these busted in posts twice over the years and have never YET seen a BLR that came apart at the seams.
Id bet someone loaded far to much of the wrong powder, because I hunted with and loaded for a marlin 45/70 for decades and had zero problem and theres been at least two other 45/70 rifles used for Decades in out elk camp with out any problems, yet I still feel the BROWNING DESIGNS SUPERIOR

while the velocities in a 45/70, will not quite match a 50 grain charger of IMR 3031 under
a gas check 405 grain hard cast bullet,
in a 450 MARLIN BLR the result on game is indistinguishable, either rifle works far more effectively than most modern hunters will admit

 

[grumpyvette]

I got a really good deal on a Remington 700 custom 458 win mag rifle after the previous owner decided almost instantly after firing a few times off the bench rest that it was just a great deal more dangerous to his shoulder, to own the rifle than it would be to his checking account balance if he sold it at a significant price reduction.
now Im not a huge fan of being beat senseless either so I added a really thick quality recoil pad, I use a good sling and I use a vest with a sewn in shoulder pad, but the rifle usually gets loaded with less than max loads.
the reduced loads make the rifle far more useful in my opinion, because we seem to have very few really dangerous game requiring 500 grain solids in the areas Ive hunted
its seen far more 400 grain hard cast gas check bullets over a load of 60 grains of IMR 3031 that produces about 1900fps in my rifle.
its accounted for several deer and hogs with zero problems and its darn accurate, groups of near an inch at 100 yards are common off the bench, I size mine at .459 cast from 5% tin and 95% wheel weights and cast hot enough to look slightly frosted
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0004482053

 

[grumpyvette]

lets call this a product test and recommendation,
the more I shoot my 450 marlin caliber BLR, the more I see it as almost the best possible compromise in power rapid fire and accuracy,and very effective power application, I've seen , this cartridge produces repressive power levels out to at least 250 yards with proper hand loads ,while not being abusive too the point you have to really think about it's recoil , before snapping it up to your shoulder and firing, its certainly not abusive due to recoil levels, but youll certainly know when the rifle fired.
its much easier to use than my 458 win and 458 lott bolt guns, in fact its just at that level where your sure the rifle fired but your not in the least worried about getting hit with a scope due to recoil, its a bit like a 338 win in that respect, darn effective without any significant abuse on the shoulder.
Ive been using a 405 rem over 50 grains of imr 3031 and a federal 215 primer , a 4x Leopold post & cross hair scope , the guns amazingly accurate easily under 1" 3 shot groups off the bench rest but Im more impressed with being able to knock empty coke cans off a fence at 80 yards almost as fast as I can site and squeeze off shots , and nothing Ive ever used before drops hogs like those big soft point 458 caliber slugs
(my 300 win mag comes close)but its not as easy to snap shoot
I can,t think of a single large game animal, like deer elk or black bear, hogs etc. Id ever hunt at under 200 yards that this would not work well on.
you can play with ballistic computers and trajectory charts for weeks if you care too but the math and facts won,t change,if you want to carry a useful rifle that you can expect to use in the feild with a reasonable trajectory, you can graph out the difference between all the potential bullet weights and velocity's, if you care to, (as an engineer I did that lots of times)it won,t change the fact that both the 45/70 and 450 marlin have very similar case capacity and if you graph out all the 300grn -500 grn projectiles loaded to max safe pressures, the 450 marlin holds a minor advantage with its slightly higher safe working pressure and that your most efficient loads based on trajectory, and retained energy and limited case capacity always favor the 350-430 grain projectiles.
look at the loads listed earlier, use a ballistic calculator
youll eventually be forced into that realization , by simple math

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/
the additional 150-175 or so fps that the 450 marlin allows, over a 45/70 is not all that significant once you realize that the minor increase in impact energy and flatter trajectory will be a very minor advantage and either cartridge punches through an elk and whats behind it easily.
DECENT CAST BULLET SOURCE
http://westernbullet.com/45riflecaliber.html

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... d=006&bg=x

http://www.all4shooters.com/en/articles ... mmunition/

Re: 450 marlin handloads.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 250 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 57.0 2,288
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 60.0 1,970
Remarks: 1.95 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 62.0 2,091
Remarks: 1.80 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 51.5 1,751
Remarks: 2.25 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 53.0 1,869
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 54.0 1,990
Remarks: 1.90 group
300 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 50.0 1,982
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon H-4198 48.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.60 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 59.0 1,770
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 61.0 1,821
Remarks: 1.70 group
350 Kodiak FP IMR IMR-3031 56.0 1,827
Remarks: 1.55 group
350 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-335 60.0 1,872
Remarks: 1.20 group
400 Speer FN Hodgdon H-4895 56.0 1,773
Remarks: 1.75 group
405 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-322 52.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.50 group
405 Magma cast IMR IMR-4198 32.0 1,332
Remarks: 2.00 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 48.0 1,875
Remarks: 1.80 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 50.0 1,960
Remarks: 1.45 group

300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 38.7 1,928
Remarks: start chg
300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 43.0 2,096
Remarks: max chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.0 1,716
Remarks: start chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 40.0 1,865
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.2 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 48.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 52.2 2,198
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 58.0 2,389
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 54.9 2,217
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 61.0 2,410
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 58.1 2,226
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 64.5 2,420
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 60.3 2,214
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 67.0 2,407
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 59.4 2,001
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 66.0 2,175
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 56.7 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 63.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 39.4 1,813
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.8 1,971
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 46.1 1,919
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 51.2 2,086
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 50.0 2,030
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 55.5 2,207
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 55.8 2,067
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 62.0 2,247
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 55.8 2,010
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 62.0 2,185
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 54.9 1,892
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 61.0 2,057
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 55.8 1,982
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 62.0 2,154
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 55.8 1,719
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 62.0 1,869
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.9 1,688
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 41.0 1,835
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 41.4 1,732
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 46.0 1,883
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 47.3 1,883
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 52.5 2,047
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 49.9 1,877
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 55.4 2,040
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 54.0 1,909
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 60.0 2,075
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 49.5 1,689
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 55.0 1,836
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 53.1 1,875
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 59.0 2,038
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 53.1 1,620
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 59.0 1,761
Remarks: max chg; compressed load


300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-3031 52.5 1,870
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-4198 44.2 2,000
Remarks: 39,000 psi
300 Nosler Partition IMR IMR-3031 57.0 2,100
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-3031 56.0 2,030
Remarks: 38,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-4198 45.0 2,050
Remarks: 40,000 psi
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-3031 50.8 1,860
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge
400 Remington soft point IMR IMR-3031 50.0 1,840
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge (VERY ACCURATE)
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-4198 40.0 1,820
Remarks: 40,000 psi


if you want a good 450 marlin load try 50 grains of IMR 3031 under a 405 remington bullet and a 215 fed primer, its accurate and will kill anything in north America if you place your shots well, if you want to beat your self half sill buy a 458 lott and load 500 grain bullets to 2300fps with about 75-80 grains of imr 4320 or IMR 4895 (LOOK IT UP IN YOUR MANUAL) but all youll gain is a bruised shoulder the 405 grain load in the marlin cleanly kills bear and ELK etc.
BTW CZ sells 458 lott rifles for about $1200-$1600 depending on options, yes Im a bit masochistic and Ive hunted elk with one, trust me when I say the marlin or BLR in 450 marlin are both better elk hunting choices

 

[grumpyvette]

BTW I looked for several Months to find a decent quality set of scope rings and mounts,for My blr, I wanted a weaver style set as Ive found that style seems to hold up and have fewer failures in the field.
several places I contacted listed mounts and rings, but I ordered a couple sets, from local shops that were listed as one piece base sets only to need to return those when for various reasons I found they didn,t fit correctly,(there seems to be two separate screw spacing versions)
I wanted a set for my 450 marlin, caliber BROWNING LEVER RIFLE,(BLR) , All I got was several trips to local gun-shops to purchase and return mounts that failed to fit correctly UNTIL I just gave up on finding mounts and rings locally and ordered a MILLETT #CP40714 set with a two piece base that fit and function perfectly
the most consistently accurate load I found for my marlin 45/70
was the nei bullet below sized .459
cast from 95% ww alloy and 5% tin
Winchester or federal standard rifle primers
45 grains of imr4198
easy 1"-1.2" 100 yard ,three shot groups of a good bench rest at 100 yards

its was consistently accurate , if the barrel was anywhere close to clean,
and it was deadly on deer and elk.



http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

saco makes a similar mold

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...58-459-diameter-350-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

it should not take a genius too understand that in a repeater like a marlin or BLR the over all cartridge length must be close to a standard designed length to function reliably regardless of the projectile weight, selected, thus longer projectiles will extend a great deal deeper into the case taking up valuable propellant space, the trade-off tends to make it very difficult in the limited case capacity of the 45/70 and 450 marlin. too efficiently push bullets much over about 430 grains to velocities, at the safe limits in pressure, that provide both reasonably flat trajectory and high retained energy

BE aware the factory rear sight on the BLR can be in the way, for clearing some scopes

I think a great many guys who stick their nose up at the idea of using what they perceive as older lower velocity cartridges like a hot loaded 45/70 or 450 marlin have that opinion because they have little or no experience in the field with someone using one.
at the risk of proving Im an old geezer,Ill tell you this.
as an example,
back in the late 1969 season here in Florida I was hunting with a guy, who had just purchased a 444 marlin, JACK, had sighted it in 3" high at 100 yards the previous weekend and had a weaver 4x scope on the rifle,he had loaded it with speer 3/4 jacket hollow points.
JACK, was using the rifle he had purchased for an up coming elk hunt after reading the advertizement posted below.

we were walking across a large field when we saw two bucks stand up at about 150 yard out and stand staring at us, in those days the daily bag limit was two deer a day. before I could even say a thing JACK, fired that rifle twice in very rapid succession and to my amazed young eyes both deer dropped on the spot. I,d never seen deer drop instantly when hit and I sure as hell never saw two deer shot and dropped almost instantly within feet of each other.
right then I knew I needed to buy a similar rifle, which I did as soon as funds allowed and it worked great for several decades.
I eventually sold that rifle to upgrade to the 45/70 version and I sold the 45/70 after about 15 years to upgrade to the 450 marlin BLR and in each case the results were both impressive and in my opinion an improvement, (the 450 marlin BLR is not significantly more powerful than a 45/70 but the BLR is more accurate in my experience,and handles better, I primarily hunt ELK in thick cover and wooded canyons.
I think most guys read far to many magazine articles and get the idea most game is shot at extreme ranges mandating a flat trajectory rifle, but its been my experience that shots over 250 yards are rather rare.
yes when I first started hunting out west I had assumed the same thing and used a 30/06 which I eventually upgraded to a 340 wby, but the truth is that all but 2-3 shots Ive ever taken at elk, and of all the elk Ive killed, could very easily have been made with a 45/70 as I said, shots over 250 yards have been rare. while Ive used a 340 wby and 375 H&H much more often, Ive used a 45/70 with hard cast gas check bullets on two elk and dozens of hogs , its a darn effective caliber, once you can punch a big hole in one side and out the other on an elk, the markings on the brass cartridge case are not critical

 

[grumpyvette]

One of the KEYS to being successful at hunting is knowing both your equipments limitations and the games anatomy, and it also helps to know the areas youll hunt.I sight all my big game rifles in to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards to be consistent and laminate a drop chart and tape it to the stock for a quick reference.
below youll see a picture of a browning BLR , the one I use for my elk hunts currently is a 450 marlin caliber with a 405 remington bullet , load of 50 grains of IMR 3031 and a 215 federal primer in my browning BLR.

Ballistic Results​

if you use a 405 grain bullet loaded like above at 3.5" high at 100 yards puts your rifle dead on at 165 yards and 4.4" low at 200 yards
in the type of terrain I hunt a 200 yard shot opportunity would be very rare, I doubt Ive had more than two in the last 45 years


theres not much point in disputing the 450 marlin is not designed for long range shooting, as its trajectory really limits you to under 250 yards for taking easy shots , and of course that assumes youve correctly sighted in the rifle and are familiar with the cartridges trajectory and your at least semi decent at range estimations, but the vast majority of the elk Ive shot over many decades could very easily be handled with its trajectory as most were shot at well under 250 yards. and the 450 marlin with its 405 grain slug hits and results in game reacting to being hit in a very obvious manor , there's never in my experience been a doubt you've connected with a shot, in most cases the games staggered or dropped on impact.
from point blank to about 175 yards you simply hold for a center chest hit behind the shoulder, if you judge the range to be 200yards to 250 yards place the horizontal cross hair on the upper backs hair line, this allows you to nearly instantly hit and drop elk while sneaking thru the conifer/timber and aspens, a quick shot aimed at the red (X) (REFERENCE PICTURE POSTED BELOW)will drop most elk very quickly , a high quality 2x7x scope on a timber hunting elk rifle seems to be nearly ideal

PRODUCTIVE ELK HUNTING COUNTRY IN MY EXPERIENCE, HAS BEEN MOSTLY SIMILAR TO THESE PICTURES POSTED BELOW

I usually hunt thicker brush, and take my 450 marlin rifle or sometimes my 375 H&H carbine,
now this carbine shoots flatter, but its not more effective like the ballistics on paper seem to suggest it might be, the fact is that the bigger caliber and heavier bullet of the 450 marlin with its 405 grain bullet seems to be just as effective in my experience inside of 250 yards.

for decades my late hunting partner used a BLR in 358 win caliber , and while its not the ideal long range caliber or combo it proved to be very effective.
it provided moderate recoil yet it proved to be devastatingly effective and I doubt he ever shot or even had an opertunity to shoot elk past 200 yards in over 35 years

BTW if you buy a 458 win mag don,t think your restricted to use of shoulder busting loads suitable for dropping a rhino, you have the option of reducedc loads if you get the proper bullet molds for cast bullets,because a 45 caliber bolt action rifle can use , home made cast bullets and still be very effective.
yes you can use cast bullets in smaller calibers but a properly loaded 45 caliber has a good deal more range and stopping power than something like a 30/30 loaded with those comparable cartridges.
besides youll have a good rifle that with proper handloads , obviously these are far reduced from the cartridges full potential, but they make much less recoil and the light loads actually fun to shoot and can be used for any game

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

25 grains of TRAIL BOSS makes a good small game load, pushing this to about 1000fps making it almost a 45 acp pistol power load

55 grains of IMR 3031 and this bullet makes a good effective deer and elk load, making it a hot 45/70, but far less abusive than a fully loaded 458 win.
for about 30 years our elk hunt group generally kept a marlin lever action 45/70 with a weaver 4x scope on it that was sighted dead on at 200 yards as the camp back-up elk rifle, standard load was a hard cast 350 grain bullet over a stiff load of 50 grains of IMR 4198 over a 215 federal primer . that rifle eventually was responsible for killing more elk than most of the hunter primairy arms and resulting several guys buying similar marlin 45/70s over the years

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... der&Source

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
458-355-GC

cast from 95% WW alloy and 5% pure tin

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...al-range-using-cast-loads-in-a-458-win.14287/

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_ ... licID=5866

At least to me the HUGE advantage in using a 45/70 or 450 marlin comes with the intended use, velocity range it operates at and the fact that a hand cast, hand loaded projectile performs nearly perfectly and will allow you to hunt at far lower cost for ammo yet still have a very VERY effective gun that will easily allow 200 yard or a bit further, kills on game for far lower cost, plus the satisfaction you get from owning a rifle that shoots very accurately with cast projectiles you can push to near the design limitations.
I think you'll find as I have that a 4%-5% tin added to wheel weights makes a very noticeable difference in the appearance and the ability of the bullets to rivet yet remain relatively intact after expanding on impact.
you will also find dropping them into a 7 gallon bucket of water filled about 7/8 full tends to make a better quality bullet , I generally cast about 10lbs-20lbs of bullets at a time then pour out the water and spread the bullets out on a beach towel, separate the few culls and bits of casting scrap that you always get and then dry the bullets and lube size them.

keep in mind that if you hand load you can push anything from a 250 grain bullet at 800 fps to a 550 grain bullet at 2300 fps out of a 458 lott bolt action like this, and because velocity's tend to be rather reasonable hard cast gas check bullets tend to work very well

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
I found this bullet to be especially accurate in my marlin 45/70 over 45 grains of IMR 4198, Im not sure what velocity youll get in your rifle but cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin,well lubed its accurate,and it shoots thru deer,hogs and elk , holds tight groups,and generally works real well with expected results..very dead game.
theres a balance that needs to be found in any cast bullet hand loads between penetration recoil and accuracy and bullet expansion, and youll generally find that in a 45/70 or 450 marlin the 350 grains pushed to about 1900fps-2000fps or the 400 grains to 1700fps-1800fps fall in the sweet spot where recoil is tolerable expansions decent and predictable and accuracy good.
you might not feel the same, but the ability to fabricate 200-500 projectiles at home on a few hours notice is a big plus in my opinion
the absurdity in owning a 458 win caliber rifle here in the lower 48 states, would be related to shooting dozens of full power loads that cost $6-$12 each, once you reload to a much more comfortable recoil level and reduce the cost to well under 70 cents a shot using cast bullets that can be every bit as accurate as the factory ammo, it puts owning and using a 458 win or 458 LOTT, rifle in a whole lot more user and wallet friendly role in your list of rifles, you grab going to the range or out hunting. yes the rifles do tend to be a bit heavy , but two of my friends have used 458 win rifles with reduced cast bullet loads successfully on Elk and one guy prefers a mild load with a 355 grain cast bullet at about 1400 fps for hogs and deer here in Florida.
while I'd agree that few people would want to use full power factory ammo all that often, the 458 win and 458 Lott can rather easily be used at reduced power levels

Ive owned two, a 375 H&H and a 458 win, chambered rifles, both with proper hand loads were consistent 1"-1.3" three shot group at 100 yards off a bench rest rifles
the 375 liked the 300 grain round nose hornady (no longer made) the 458 liked the 405 remingtons (hard to find)
both were damn good but heavy hunting rifles (youll appreciate the weight it reduces recoil)
I swapped to sako, remington, CZ and weatherby bolt guns in those calibers
and while I don,t regret swapping, to new rifles, in those calibers, I regret selling the ruger single shots as they were nice rifles.

YEAH, A BROWNING blr IN 450 MARLIN

IS DESIGNED TO HANDLE max PRESSURE LEVELS in factory ammo, of about 43,000 psi roughly 50% higher than a 45/70, ,the action on a marlin 450 marlin BLR is front locking like a bolt action , it can safely handle slightly more pressure. a rear locking action on a marlin lever action can,t safely handle , more than about 33000 psi
the marlin is from what Ive read several places designed to handle approximately 32000-33000 psi
absolute max[/COLOR]
most loads are well under 28,000 psi hot loads are well under 30,000 psi, and a stead diet of those 30,000 psi loads in a marlin 45/70 will eventually strain and loosen components over time,
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

its stupid to push your handloads past the rifles designed pressure limits but obviously people have occasionally done so!

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_pressure

theres no need to push any 45/70 or 450 marlin to greater than about 28,000 psi
a 405-450 grain bullet will generally maximize the results, in the compromise between flat trajectory and penetration as heavier bullets take up a great deal of powder case capacity in either case.
a 45/70 can safely push a 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet to about 1800-1900 fps
a 450 marlin can push the same bullet to about 2070 fps max

either rifle will kick the crap out of your shoulder at those speeds, if you shoot a great deal of ammo, and either cartridge or rifle loaded too about 1800 fps with 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet, loaded to about 1800-1900 fps will punch clear through an elk at 200 yards ... and still punch through a 4" aspen behind that elk, from personal in the field experience
it would be stupid to push pressure higher, that those listed max velocity's above in my opinion, and experience, as the cartridge is devastating on anything so loaded.



http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

ELK ARE NOT STUPID, as soon as they detect hunters they move to the least accessible areas with the thickest cover , and that usually means youll spend a great deal more time slowly and carefully sneaking thru timber than shooting across open fields like those magazine article pictures taken of elk in parks like yellow-stone suggest.

Ive used a 45/70 for decades in hunting elk in thick cover in colorado canyon country like these pictures others have posted, and lately I traded in my 45/70 marlin for a 450 marlin BLR its noticeably more accurate, than the marlin, the best load I found is a 405 grain remingtom bullet over 50 grains of imr3031 and a 215 fed primer

 

[grumpyvette]

'Safety in bear country protective measures and bullet performance at short range.'

www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

In the article they do a ballistic comparison between various high powered rifles including the .460Wby, .458WM, .375H&H, .338WM, .300WM, .300Wby, 8mmRM and 45/70 to name a few

Here are some quotes from the article;

"In overall ballistic performance, the .458 ranked
first. Bullet penetration was the deepest
of all the cartridges tested - average
depth, 19 inches. Striking energy was
79 percent of the .460 Weatherby (rank-
ed second), part of which may be attrib-
uted to the extra 10 gr of bullet weight
in the .458. The bullet expanded well
(4.6 times) and retained 82 percent of
the unfired weight. The 510-gr Winches-
ter factory bullets used in the .458 did
not fragment, but the 500-gr bullets of
the .460 Weatherby did. This was the
major reason for the first-place ranking.
Recoil in the 9.4-lb rifle was 54.7 ft-lb or
about 71 percent of that of the .460 in a
rifle that was 1.3 lb heavier. The lesser
recoil in a lighter rifle and better bullet
performance make the .458 Winchester
preferable to the .460 Weatherby. A
short-barreled, bolt-action .458 would
be an excellent rifle for an experienced
rifleman. Shortening the barrel to 22 or
even 20 inches should not reduce ballis-
tic performance much. Any weight re-
duction, however, would increase
recoil."

This is what was written about the .460 Wby which must be noted was loaded to Lott velocities;

The .460 Weatherby Magnum cartridge ranked
second in overall performance. The
large-caliber, heavy bullet at relatively
high velocity had good, but not the deep-
est, penetration. Although the chrono-
graphed velocity did not approach the
advertised velocity, bullet energy ex-
ceeded that of the .458 Winchester by
over 1300 ft-lb. Average retained bullet
weight was 65 percent of the unfired
weight. The bullets had a tendency to
fragment. It appears the high striking
energy exceeded the design limits of
the bullet at the short test range.
Cross-sectional area expansion was
adequate and overall bullet perform-
ance good, but not the best.
The high overall performance of the
.460 Weatherby was obtained in a
heavy-recoiling, 10.7-lb rifle with a
26-inch barrel. The heavy
recoil made it very uncomfortable to shoot.
The stock shape, heavy weight,
and long barrel detract from the utility
of the rifle in the heavy bush of coastal
Alaska. This could be ameliorated if the
rifle were remodeled, but shortening
the barrel to 20 inches would lower
velocity and energy. This might be
beneficial if it also reduced the
tendency of the bullet to fragment;
however, there is little reason to reduce
the .460 if a .458 is available.
A short-barreled .460 would have tre-
mendous muzzle blast, and the recoil
of a .460 Weatherby less than 10 lb in
weight would be so severe that it would
be difficult for the shooter to recover
from the recoil and operate the bolt to
rapidly chamber a second cartridge."

I think the above statement goes to show the importance of premium projectiles in DG calibers.

And finally to sum it up;

"A .458 Winchester Magnum with a 510gn
soft-point bullet. For a shooter who can
handle the recoil of this cartridge, a
bolt-action rifle in .458 Winchester
Magnum is the surest weapon available."

So there you go. Sure, it's an old article but is was done in an unbiased manner and all calibers were fired at the same medium and at the same distance... and the .458 held it's own... just as some of knew it would.
I have no intention of opening up a can of worms in regards to the .458 being better than this or that, but I do believe that the .458WM is now beyond criticism. It now does exactly what it was st out to do and thats to fire a 500gn bullet at 2150 fps. This is what it was designed to do, this is what it does and this is all it needs to do. History has shown time and time again that a 500gn bullet at 2150 fps is absolutely adequate for all that can be hunted. And this it does with no drama's or horror stories that have (rightly or wrongly) plagued this cartridge. It really is all it was meant to be

 

[grumpyvette]

Found this article so I'd thought I'd share it.

GB,

Russ.


.458 magnum problem explained.


"NOTHING IS EVER NEW IN THIS BUSINESS" is an oft-repeated epigram in the shooting world, and not without good reason. Thus it is a near-historic event when a nugget of information comes to light that completely reverses what we know--or thought we knew--about a long discussed shooting topic.
I won't keep you in suspense long, but to get events in perspective, let's go back to a column I wrote called "America's Gift to Africa" (August 2002), in which I praised the .458 Winchester Magnum and expressed some skepticism about rumors of its failing on Africa's biggest and most dangerous game. Rumors began filtering back from Africa not long after Winchester's 1956 introduction of its .458 Mag., alleging incidents of game that got away after supposedly being well hit at close range, and even elephant and buffalo charges that turned deadly because of the .458's lack of stopping power. These are mighty serious allegations against a cartridge on which a hunter might have to stake his life.

A LESS EXPENSIVE OPTION

Such reports, even if second- and third-hand, did not bode well for the future of a cartridge that Winchester heralded as an antidote to the quadrupling prices of traditional British and Continental dangerous-game rifles and cartridges. With a muzzle energy of more than 5,000 ft-lb (as then advertised), the .458 virtually duplicated the elephant-stopping power of the legendary .470 Nitro Express, and did it at a fraction of the cost. Moreover, its companion rifle, Winchester's Model 70, possessed a worldwide reputation for accuracy and reliability at, again, a fraction of the price of double rifles or even carriage-trade bolt rifles.
Thus an M-70 in .458 caliber looked to be the best of all worlds for professional guides and certainly for sport hunters who wanted to go to Africa or other places where big and dangerous animals lurked. Except, that is, for the reports of it not doing what it was expected to do when its full-jacketed solid bullets encountered hard muscle and solid bone.
Such anecdotes were completely at odds with my own experiences with the .458 in Africa, such as my first elephant, which was a head-on upward angling shot (it was that close) with my hand-loaded 500-grain steel-jacketed bullet smashing through the thick skull, into the brain, and exiting behind the head. Other elephants fell just as surely, as did Cape buffalo, safari after safari, causing me to become all the more skeptical of rumors about the .458's shoddy performance. A skepticism which was reinforced by conversations with the professional guides with whom I hunted.
Anyway, my African hunting began in the early 1970s, by which time rumors about the .458's failings had begun to fade. As well as I could connect the dots, reports of the .458's sub-standard performance were circulated only during the late 1950s and early 1960s, when the cartridge was still a newcomer.

NOT ENOUGH POWDER?

These were the reports that stirred some amateur ballistics theorists, in their usual rush to judgment, to speculate that the problem with the .458 Magnum was that its case didn't hold enough powder. Never mind that it delivered two and a half tons of energy at the muzzle--as much as, or more than, several British bluebloods of hallowed repute; somehow it needed more powder. As it turns out, they were on to something. But not because the .458's pudgy case didn't hold enough powder. It was because, at times during the production process, it wasn't being loaded with enough powder!
This came to light when I happened to read an astonishing "Letter to the Editor" in a 2004 issue of Precision Shooting magazine, a nicely done, semi-technical journal devoted mainly to rifle accuracy. The letter's author, Walter Engel, a former Winchester engineer, described his intimate involvement in the development of the .458, and his subsequent discovery of quality problems with Winchester's ammo production line.
In his words: "The production loading machine has a large flat disk that rotates intermittently and there are slots along the periphery that carry the case to each station. This results in a start-and-stop movement, so that a distinct loading operation can occur at each pause. This jarring motion caused the powder to spill out [emphasis mine] of very full cases." In his letter, Mr. Engel goes on to describe the obvious effects of the lost powder as "a loss of velocity." So there you have it.

PROBLEM CORRECTED

How much velocity and energy were lost depended, of course, on how much powder was tossed out of the open cases, but it's reasonable to assume that the amounts varied from round to round. Thus, within a single 20-round box of .458 ammo, velocity/energy levels could vary cartridge to cartridge by hundreds of feet per second and thousands of foot-pounds of energy.
Nowadays, we seldom hear reports of the .458 failing when the chips are down, except when the failing turns out to have been the result of poor shooting, and it's safe to say that once the powder spillage problem was observed, it was immediately corrected.
Meanwhile, in its half-century of existence, the .458 Winchester Magnum is firmly entrenched as the world's most used and recognized cartridge in places where men hunt dangerous animals and put their faith in the cartridges they fire. This in spite of a cloud that once hung over its future, a cloud at last blown away by the simple explanation of a former Winchester engineer who was, in fact, instrumental in the development of the .458, Walter Engel. Thank you, sir.

CARTRIDGE TIMELINE

1907
*.470 NE Introduced in 1907, the 470 NE is one of the quintessential cartridges for dangerous game. Federal's factory loading launches a 500-gr. bullet at 2,150 fps, generating 5130 ft-lb of energy at the muzzle.
1956
* 458 Win. Mag. Even though it fits in a standard long-action receiver, the .458 Win. Mag. can propel a 500-gr. projectile at 2100 fps. nearly duplicating the ballistics of the famed .470 NE at a fraction of the cost.
1971
* .458 Lott Jack Lott created this wildcat in 1971 by lengthening the case of the .458 Win. Hag, Hornady started producing it in 2002. With an initial velocity of 2.300 fps, it generates nearly 6.000 ft-lb of muzzle energy.
~~~~~~~~
By Jim Carmichael

 

[grumpyvette]

.....

And with cast bullets it can be loaded to slow 45-70 ballistics and makes pleasant plinker and great whitetail hunting round.

not many guys like getting kicked hard and each of us has a tolerance level that differs.
I think there would be a great many more 458 win rifles sold is there were more people with experience hand loading the 458 win with the lighter bullet weights at moderate velocities.
I purchased a remington custom shop 458 win mag rifle for about 2/3rds of what the original; owner paid and got a box of factory winchester ammo with 500 grain bullets and an empty 20 cases, which I was assured was the full extent of its previous use as the original owner decided its recoil was FAR higher than he could tolerate!

loaded with a 360 grain cast bullet over 50 grains of RL7 its a totally different gun. and will still kill anything in north America that you hit correctly, and that 360 grain bullets most likely going at only about 1500fps.
now if you get a chance too buy a used rifle in serious heavy caliber rifle, especially if its one in a 40 plus caliber rifle, you can be fairly sure that most of the used rifle's youll see in the used gun rack are rarely extensively used.
you can be fairly sure that most 458 win and 416 remington rifles have had fairly low useage, especially if they don,t look in bad shape, simply because of ammo cost and recoil levels.
most of my older rifle nut friends, own at least one 40 -to 45 plus caliber rifle, but in most cases it sits in the gun safe . more there for bragging rights than a regularly used tool.

Ive been looking for, and really wanted, a stainless/laminated ruger #1 in 458 lott at a decent price for about 10 years, ever since one of my buddies bought one at a local gun show for $900, he loves his, I reload for him, and no he refuses to sell his.
every time I have the cash I either can't locate one, or theres a family crisis that used all the saved cash
given a choice that would be my next rifle

 

[Grumpy]

I was at the local outdoor range a few weekends ago and playing with a bolt action 458 winchester with mild cast loads,
accuracy was really good ,the hand-load was very mild .
the ammo I was using was pushing a 350 grain hard cast gas check bullet at about 1400 fps , recoil was very mild, It felt like a 30/30 in that re-guard.
while I was shooting a rather impressive 100 yard group of just over 1.3" diam. with that load,
one of the guys on a near by bench , asked me what caliber rifle I was shooting,
I handed him a loaded cartridge and seeing it was a 458 win,
he asked me how Id found ammo that mild as it was obviously not loaded to elephant stopping levels of power.
I told him I hand load my ammo to the power level I want, and cast my own bullets to save a considerable percentage of the cost of ammo and while many guys seem to think your always trying to either duplicate or exceed factory power levels, thats not always true.
the guy seemed to have never even considered the fact that you don,t necessarily need to load ammo to near factory power levels, or that a 458 win mag rifle could with the correct hand loads become a rather pleasant rifle to plink with!
In fact one of the big benefits of the 45 caliber rifles is that the 45/70, 450 marlin,458 win, and 458 LOTT, can all be loaded from mild almost hand-gun levels duplicating a 45 acp-454 cassul up to the max pressure and velocity levels the cartridges are capable of handling
heres a REMINGTON CUSTOM SHOP 458 WIN rifle

this versatility, (if your a skilled hand loader) will allow you to hunt rabbits to anything in north America with a 45/70,450 marlin,458 win, and 458 LOTT, and while it may not be everyone's idea of the ideal compromise, in selecting a rifle caliber it has a great deal of potential as a 45/70, 450 marlin , or 458 win etc can be hand loaded to provide very good performance as a deer or elk hunting tool yet be down loaded to a pleasant plinker and in all cases dirt cheap cast projectiles can be used with very satisfactory results.

A BROWNING BLR in caliber 450 marlin is extremely effective for hunting elk in heavy timber (conifer and aspen, where they tend to hide out under heavy hunt pressure)

the 450 marlin BLR is a very good quality rifle,
with good ammo 1.5" 3 shot, 100 yard groups are very common of a solid bench rest,
I think you grow to really appreciate over time, especially if matched to decent optics
find a load your rifle likes.
it will hammer any deer or elk inside 250 yards with good ammo and decent shot placement,
obviously youll want to practice shooting from field positions

you simply sight in, off the bench at 100 yards, put the scope cross hair centered ,
(at 100 yards off the bench) on the yellow dot,
and have all the shots print over the smaller red dot,
SO THAT when you get out in the field,put the scope cross hair centered where the light green dot is on the deer or elk, diagram above,
it will produce a fatal wound out a bit past 250 yards,(well past any range youll need so no range calc required if you can see clearly at low optic power, )
you sure don,t have to use this method or even agree but I can assure you its resulted in a bunch of dead, deer or elk
the vital organs or most effective shot placement is about an 8"-to-10" up, from lower chest, line, just behind the front leg and about mid chest ideally in a circle in the chest where the projectile will destroy the heart and lungs, that .458 caliber slug is already as big as several smaller caliber rifle bullets typically expand too before it expands so it devastates deer and its very lethal on elk with good shot placement.

 

[Grumpy]

even with the cost of brass, dies molds etc averaged in, 50 cents each, or less for cartridges is easy to do , vs several dollars a shot for commercially loaded ammo
yes you can load your personally produced cast gas check bullets , if properly prepped to provide good accuracy even at 2100 fps , and a 350 grain-540 grain cast bullet mold is easily available, you have a good deal of options, in both bullet weights and velocities.
while not for everyone a 458 caliber rifle has some potential
now obviously you don,t need a 458 win to hunt, but many guys enjoy hand loading and casting their own bullets and a 45 caliber rifle is ideal for that purpose., and while Jack resisted buying a heavy caliber for years he bought a ruger 458 falling block a few years ago after he got more familiar with bullet casting and hand loading


the butt stock cartridge sleeve that holds 8-9 cartridges is almost a mandatory accessory like a sling on most rifles in my opinion

if your looking for a decent high quality single shot falling block ruger #1 in stainless ID suggest you find and buy one very soon, as it appears ruger is no longer making them
2000
NO. 1 Stainless Standard Rifle: 26" Med ($820)
.25-06, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm STW, .300 Wby Mag @ 8 lbs. Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 24" Hvy ($820)
.22-250 @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

2001
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($845)
.243, .25-06, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm STW, .30-06, .300 Wby Mag @ 8 lbs Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 24" Hvy ($845)
.22-250 @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

2002
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($885)
.243 Win, .25-06, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm STW, .308 Win, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8 lbs
Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 24" Hvy ($885)
.22-250 @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Tropical: 24" Hvy ($885)
.375 H&H Mag, .416 Rigby @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-H-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($885)
.45-70 Gov @ 7¼ lbs Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2003
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($910)
.243, .25-06, .270, 7mm Rem. Mag, 7mm STW, .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8 lbs
Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 24" Hvy ($910)
.22-250 @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Tropical: 24" Hvy ($910)
.375 H&H Mag, .405 Win, .416 Rigby @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-H-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($910)
.45-70 Gov @ 7¼ lbs Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2004
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($950)
.243, .25-06, .270, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm STW, .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8 lbs
Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 26"&24" Hvy ($950)
.204 Ruger (26"), .22-250 (24") @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Tropical: 24" Hvy ($950)
.375 H&H Mag, .405 Win, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-H-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($950)
.45-70 Gov @ 7¼ lbs Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2005
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($998)
.243, .25-06, .270, 7mm Rem Mag, .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8 lbs
Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 26"&24" Hvy ($998)
.204 Ruger (26"), .22-250 (24") @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Tropical: 24" Hvy ($998)
.375 H&H Mag, .405 Win, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-H-BBZ
(Ruger told me in 2012 that no more than 250 of the .405 were made in total for all the years.)

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($998)
.45-70 Gov @ 7¼ lbs Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2006
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($1,000)
.243, .25-06, .270, 7mm Rem Mag, .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8 lbs
Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 26"&24" Hvy($1,032)
.204 Ruger (26"), .22-250 (24") @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Tropical: 24" Hvy ($1,032)
.375 H&H Mag, .405 Win, .416 Rigby, .458 Lott @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-H-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($1,032)
.45-70 Gov @ 7¼ lbs Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2007
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($1,065)
.243, .25-06, .270, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8½ lbs
Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 26"&24" Hvy ($1,065)
.204 Ruger (26"), .22-250 (24") @ 9 lbs Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Tropical: 24" Hvy ($1,065)
.416 Rigby, .458 Lott @ 8½ lbs Catalog No. K1-H-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($1,065)
.45-70 Gov @ 7¼ lbs Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2008
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($1,130)
.243, .25-06, .270, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8 ¼ - 8½ lbs
Models: 1348, 1394, 11305, 1395, 1397, 1396. Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Varminter: 26"&24" Hvy ($1,130)
.204 Ruger (26"), .22-250 (24") @ 9 lbs. Model: 11311, 1392. Catalog No. K1-V-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Tropical: 24" Hvy ($1,130)
.375 H&H, .458 Lott @ 8½ - 9½ lbs. Models: 1398, 11302 Catalog No. K1-H-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($1,130)
.45-70 Gov. @ 7¼ lbs Model: 1399 Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2009
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($1,186)
.243, .25-06, .270, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-06, .300 Win Mag @ 8 ¼ - 8½ lbs
Models: 1348, 1394, 11305, 1395, 1397, 1396 Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

NO. 1 Stainless Sporter: 22" Med ($1,186)
.375 Ruger, .45-70 Gov @ 7¼ lbs Models: 11331, 1399 Catalog No. K1-S-BBZ

2010
NO. 1 Stainless Standard: 26" Med ($1,222)
.270, .300 Win Mag @ 8 ¼ - 8 ½ lbs
Models: 11305, 1396 Catalog No. K1-B-BBZ

No more are catalog listed from 2010 on...
ruger makes a darn accurate single shot in 270, 30/06, 338 win,35 whelen, 458 win, and 45/70 that all have excellent reputations in my elk camp.
BROWNING BLR lever actions in 358 win, 308 win and 450 marlin have all been used very successfully,
as have the remington 7600 slide action in both 30/06 and 35 whelen, and theres several guys using 338 win, and 375 H&H bolt actions

now personally I've found the 30/06-to-35 whelen to be about as low in the power band as IM truly comfortable hunting ELK with as I have total confidence in that caliber range with 180 grain-250 grain bullets, and the combos ability to kill ELK, Ive used a 30/06 with 100% success, its 100& lethal, theres zero doubt there, but it does not seem to get an elks attention, on bullet impact nearly as well as the 250 grain 35 whelen has on the several occasions when ,I used the 35 whelen vs the 30/06 , Ive used both so I can compare, and almost all my shots were rather similar mid chest lung shots., usually from under 200 yards. and I feel that the 300-mags, 340 wby and 375 H&H to be about the max practical recoil levels, and rifle weight I'M willing to put up with.
the 270 win loaded with a 150 grain speer over 54 grains of IMR 4831 with a fed 215 primer
or
the 30/06 loaded with a 200 grain speer over 49 grains of ww760 with a fed 215 primer
will kill any ELK effectively, keep in mind your whole hunts success may depend on your ability to make one well placed shot and your knowledge of elk anatomy and your field accuracy

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-a-good-all-around-elk-mule-deer-rifle.12948/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_exforelk_200908/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_elk_rifles_field.htm

but my favorite calibers are the 338 win

250 grain hornady over 60 grains of ww760 with a fed 215 primer
and
35 whelen, loaded with a 250 speer over 54 grains of IMR 4895 with a fed 215 primer
or
a 375 H&H

300 grain hornady over 77 grains of ww760 with a fed 215 primer

any of the five work fine PROVIDED you place your shots well, the three heavier calibers seem to get the job done a bit faster but a single hit in the right place with any of those results in a dead ELK
Reply With Quote
Ive used either a 35 whelen, 375 H&H, and 340wby on easily 75%-80% or more of MY ELK hunting trips . but thats only MY choice , whats YOURS??

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...om-friends-over-your-choice.10059/#post-50694

DIES $ 46

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0004420804/458-Winchester-Mag-Roll-Crimp-3-Die-Set-

Brass $59 per hundred (can be re-used 15-30 times on mild loads)

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...-Winchester-Mag-Unprimed-Rifle-Brass-50-Count

BULLET MOLDS GO FROM $29-$130 , but theres a near endless variety

powder costs about $25 a lb 7000 grains to a pound and lets assume 30 grains per cartridge for deer hunting
thats 233 shots per lb

primers $35 a thousand

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...Magnum-Large-Rifle-Match-Primer-(1000-Count)-
as in most things having accurate reference materials helps a great deal

 

[Grumpy]

just a quick note,
I got a call from Ray today ,
related to a issue he was having with the brakes on his 1970 Pontiac, GTO,

while I had him on the phone he mentioned,
that he had purchased a Browning BLR in caliber 450 marlin.
I asked him why he bought that particular rifle,
and he stated that he knew, Id bought and used one for the last few years,
and knew SAL, had purchased one also, and Jack had used a ruger 458 mag single shot for decades and knowing both , of us and Jack like our 45 caliber rifles, and all of the guys in our elk hunt club, were seasoned and experienced elk hunters,
he figured we must know something about the likely characteristics needed in a good heavy timber elk rifle,
He had heard nothing but good things about the browning BLR in 450 marlin, and when he heard,that lever rifle was being dis-continued, well, he figured, he better grab one damn fast!, while he still could ,as he vividly remembered missing out on the purchase of the 35 whelen, remington 7600 pump action rifles about 20 years ago!
(a rifle hes looked for for decades since, but failed to find at a good price and in near new condition)
and seeing as he had got free vacation time from his job, to hunt this year in Colorado in late October second season,
(which only happens about every other year)
he had purchased both an elk and dear tag,
but was not able to fine an elk worth shooting.

he had handloads with the 325 grain hornady bullets
http://www.hornady.com/store/450-Marlin-325-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.458-325-gr-FTX/

https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

it should not take a genius too understand that in a repeater like a marlin or BLR the over all cartridge length must be close to a standard designed length to function reliably regardless of the projectile weight, selected, thus longer projectiles will extend a great deal deeper into the case taking up valuable propellant space, the trade-off tends to make it very difficult in the limited case capacity of the 45/70 and 450 marlin. too efficiently push bullets much over about 430 grains to velocities, at the safe limits in pressure, that provide both reasonably flat trajectory and high retained energy
he used a 4.5x-14x nikon scope
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/001256740/prostaff-5-3half-14x40mm-nikoplex-matte

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/001256743/prostaff-5-3half-14x40mm-mildot-matte

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....ustable-objective-ballistic-plex-matte-finish
and sighted in 3.5" high at 100 yards which put bullet impact at about 200 yards dead on the cross hairs.
he shot a nice 4x4 buck deer the 6th day of the hunt, at about 230 yards and was very pleased with the result.

the deer dropped on the spot, like one of those buildings you see being demolished.....just dropped without taking a step

I asked where he hit the deer and he said it hit high behind the near shoulder and exited through the off shoulder.
he had judged the range at 250 yards, before he shot, used the rifle sling and a quickly acquired sitting position to make the shot, and held a bit high to compensate for drop, but pacing it off it was more like 230 yards later.
he has now come to the same conclusion I did decades ago,
"that knowing the games anatomy , knowing your rifles trajectory,
and hammering the vitals with a 250 grain or heavier bullet,
damn sure gets the games full and instant attention"
my personal favorite load for the 450 marlin is ,
a speer 405 grain bullet
over a 215 fed primer
and 50 grains of imr-3031
most of the people that own a 458 win or 458 LOTT, or 458 wby, will never put the rifles sights on a rhino,
elephant , cape buffalo, or similar members of the African dangerous game.
yeah, we may dream about it, but financial reality keeps stomping on those dreams.
but what you can do is hand-load the rifles to a bit lower velocity and play with, and enjoy them.
Ive hunted with a guy who has used a 458 win with cast bullets for decades,
Ive also used a 458 win and 458 LOTT using more appropriate power levels
(450 marlin velocity levels) with 350-to-540 grain hard cast bullets.
used that way they are very effective deer, hog, and even elk hunting tools,
yes they may be limited to about a 250 yard practical range due to practical trajectory.
but news flash, in 50 years of hunting deer and elk , I could count the opportunities,
I or any of the members of my hunting club have had to shoot elk at over 250 yards on one hand,
with a couple fingers left over.
you certainly not going too need a 458 lott or 458 win to hunt elk, but both rifles hand-loaded
to hot 45/70 / 450 marlin, power levels make excellent thick timber elk rifles where range under 200 yards are the rule and a 400 grain bullet at perhaps 1800 fps-2200 fps make a very effective elk hunting rifle
I think there would be a great many more 458 win rifles sold is there were more people with experience hand loading the 458 win with the lighter bullet weights at moderate velocities.
I purchased a remington custom shop 458 win mag rifle for about 2/3rds of what the original; owner paid and got a box of factory winchester ammo with 500 grain bullets and an empty 20 cases, which I was assured was the full extent of its previous use as the original owner decided its recoil was FAR higher than he could tolerate!

Ive been looking for, and really wanted, a stainless/laminated ruger #1 in 458 lott at a decent price for about 10 years, ever since one of my buddies bought one at a local gun show for $900, he loves his, I reload for him, and no he refuses to sell his.
every time I have the cash I either can't locate one, or theres a family crisis that used all the saved cash
given a choice that would be my next rifle
I think there would be a great many more 458 win and 458 LOTT rifles sold is there were more people with experience hand loading the 458 win/lott with the lighter bullet weights at moderate velocities.
I purchased a remington custom shop 458 win mag rifle for about 2/3rds of what the original; owner paid and got a box of factory winchester ammo with 500 grain bullets and an empty 20 cases, which I was assured was the full extent of its previous use as the original owner decided its recoil was FAR higher than he could tolerate!

BTW the Browning BLR,in most calibers
seems to have been discontinued,
thats a damn shame as it came in several calibers that made it a good hunting rifle choice in 358 win,450 marlin and a few other calibers.
so if you want one ID darn sure start looking hard,
and grab the first one you see at a gun-shop that,s in good shape or new, and just a reminder, use of high quality ,durable , and dependable quality optics , on any elk rifle are a huge advantage, in typical low light conditions

 

[Grumpy]

found this posted else ware and think its rather interesting

http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_BLR_1895.htm
Compared: Browning BLR and Marlin Model 1895 Big Bore Lever Guns

By Ed Turner


While these two fine, big bore lever rifles might be interchangeable for almost any task and the calibers and rifle types are similar, they make their marks in very different manners. Marlin .45-70's have been with us for well over 100 years, in one form or another, while the Browning BLR has been with us for only slightly more than 40 years and the .450 Marlin caliber for less than 10 years. The Marlin Model 1895 is offered in both .45-70 and .450 Marlin calibers, while the BLR is currently available only in .450.

These two rifles are, however, the epitome of the powerful and uniquely American lever action rifle. The calibers are actually so similar as to be ballistic twins. The facts show these two cartridges to be all but one in their sameness. They look and perform on a par when loaded similarly, but most .45-70 factory loaded ammo has been kept at low pressure (well under 28,000 PSI) in deference to the trapdoor rifles still out there, which are designed for use with black powder (or black power equivalent) loads.

Having a belted case prevents the similar looking .450 from being chambered in these older, weaker .45-70 actions and allows its owners a big performance boost over SAAMI standard .45-70 loads. Typical .45-70 loads drive a 300 grain bullet at around 1800 fps or a 400 grain bullet at around 1300 fps. The larger bullet, with its superior sectional density, will still get the job done on large game, such as elk, bear or moose at short ranges, but the 300 grain loads are usually intended for use on CXP2 size game. Yes, it is a big bullet, but most of these factory loads used a fast expanding "soft" bullet that, along with the poor sectional density, should convince most hunters to utilize heavier projectiles for large animals.

After spending all that time showing (or trying to) just how similar in function these two big boys are, why would someone (me!) end up with both of these rifles? Not so complicated, actually. I was enamored with the .45-70 for a good while, but knew I'd prefer the more powerful loads. These +P loads are not the least expensive rounds in the world to purchase, but they up the bar significantly from the standard loads. I simply put off my purchase long enough for the newer high octane version, the .450 Marlin, to arrive. When it did, I knew I would need one.

By the time I made my move, Browning had also jumped onto the .450 bandwagon with their fine BLR. My local gun dealer found me one with a straight grip and the purchase was made. The only factory load available at that time was the Hornady version with a 350 grain flat nose bullet at a claimed 2100 fps giving it almost 3500 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy. A very stout load, indeed. My intentions were to be able to load and shoot round nosed or pointed bullets in my BLR, as it had a detachable box magazine that made that practice safe.

Then, before the dust had settled on my newest purchase, Hornady's LeverEvolution ammo was introduced, giving the .45-70 (and .450) pointed bullets that could safely be used in the Marlin's tubular magazine. Talk about being a day late (and a grand short). The Browning continued to live at my house, but my eye now wandered to the Marlin .45-70 and the possibility of using factory loads not quite so stout, for deer hunting. I resisted for over two years, but finally succumbed when I found a dandy deal on a Marlin 1895 in .45-70. I decided on the 22" barreled model, knowing the overall length was still in my comfort zone at 40.5" and virtually the same as my 20" barreled BLR.

Marlin's Model 1895 in .45-70

Model 1895 rifle. Illustration courtesy of the Marlin Firearms Company.
As already mentioned, the old-timer here, the Marlin in .45-70, has been with us in one form or another for over 110 years. Marlin's first lever rifle to be chambered in the 45-70 was actually the older model 1881 and was, of course, a black powder rifle. The original model 1895 ceased production between 1910-1972, or thereabouts. Then Marlin correctly read a changing market and introduced the modern "Model 1895" (actually based on their 336 action) as a modern .45-70 thumper.

These new 1895's, produced since 1972, are built to withstand the higher pressures of +P .45-70 fodder. According to the experts at Marlin, the current 1895 is comfortable with maximum average pressures in the 40,000+ CUP range. Another model of the 336, called the ER (for extended range), formerly housed the powerful .356 Winchester, which operates in the 50,000 CUP range. Suffice to say, this new version of the 1895, which also houses the .450 and .444 Marlin cartridges, is a stout action capable of handling all but the most fire-breathing .45-70 loads. (The latter are usually restricted for use in Browning/Winchester or Ruger single shot rifles.) "Marlin only" .45-70 +P loads typically launch a 350-400 grain bullet from a 22" barrel at around 1900 fps.

When received, my Marlin showed fine finish and workmanship, along with a very pretty black walnut stock and forearm. The wood liked the Natchez Solution I slathered on it, just as had my Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag. The beavertail forend is a thicker and heavier than necessary, but the thin butt pad is skimpy. Hey Marlin, this is a real-world thumper at both ends! How about some real world help at the shoulder end? 'Nuff said!

I was disappointed with the trigger of the new Marlin. It was heavy and gritty, not exactly a stellar combination for any rifle. Lots of dry firing at least gave me a good feel for the lousy trigger. I next placed the new rifle side by side with a Marlin Model .444S from the mid-eighties for comparison. From several feet away one can easily see the more polished blue finish of the decades old .444 and the slight additional length in the magazine tube. This tube trend seems to have continued to this day as the .444 is still rated as holding one more round in it's slightly longer magazine. Seems to me another big cartridge might be a good thing for the .45-70 model, too. What do you think?

Overall, I was quite pleased with the Model 1885. It is a handsome rifle and seems to be well built. When I got it to a rifle range, it more than proved its mettle. I am a fan of the look of the 22" barrel and think it is well proportioned and handy. Of course, the Model 1895G Guide Gun is shorter and even handier, but I saw it as a case of diminishing returns. The LeverEvolution ammo gives us a 200 yard MPBR; why give back what we just got by buying a hunting rifle with a 3.5" shorter barrel? The Guide Gun version certainly fills its specialized niche for those who never plan on a 100+ yard shot. I am simply not willing to go there. Following are some Marlin Model 1895 specifications.

• Length: 40.5"
• Weight: 7.5 lbs.
• Barrel Length: 22"
• Magazine capacity: 4
• 2009 MSRP: Approximately $720.

Browning's BLR Thumper in .450 Marlin

BLR Lightweight with pistol grip stock. Illustration courtesy of Browning.
The Browning BLR has been with us since the end of the 1960's and has a legion of fans who love the idea of a lever rifle in modern, high intensity calibers, along with the quick repeat shots and narrow receiver for which the lever action is so well known. The BLR has been chambered for many different calibers and can perform a myriad of hunting tasks. Need a long range antelope and mule deer rifle? How about a BLR in .270 Win. or .270 WSM? Need a mule deer and elk combo rifle? How about a .300 WSM or perhaps even a .325 WSM.

Now, to the heart of the lever action thumper subject. Need to hunt big stuff and have protection from the big bears of the north? Well, how does a BLR in .450 Marlin strike your fancy?

If you like the thumper idea, as I do, it should sound good! Say what you want about big bore bolt rifles, but when Mr. Grizz breaks out of the brush at 35 yards with nothing but bad intentions, what would you like to have in hand?

If you have ever practiced fast repeat shots with both bolt and lever action rifles, you know that the lever action is simply faster. Keeping a lever to your shoulder and firing 2, 3 or 4 aimed shots as fast as you can is light years better than the same exercise with a bolt gun. I like my .338-06, .35 Whelen, .350 Rem. Mag. and 9.3x62 bolt rifles, but a .450 or .45-70 lever action is what I'd prefer to have in my hands at the moment of truth. Such scenarios are thankfully rare, but still worth considering.

The BLR is a more refined rifle than the Marlin. The blued steel is highly polished and the wood has a hard gloss finish. The receiver on the newer, lightweight version is aluminum alloy, saving weight over the older steel receiver version. I have read many comments written by the ignorant about this gun's inability to withstand heavy, high intensity loads over long periods due to the alloy receiver. Hogwash, plain and simple! The rotating bolt locks directly into the barrel and the receiver has zilch to do with the lockup and strength of the action. It could be formed from paper Mache' and still be completely functional.

The bolt is fluted and the gold plated trigger is curved, ribbed and wider than the Marlin's. The pull is somewhat heavy, but it breaks much cleaner than the Marlin's. The straight hand butt stock of my example has some nice figure, but Browning chose to use such dark stain that it is mostly hidden, such a waste. The BLR has a real recoil pad that actually helps after the trigger is pulled, far superior to the Marlin's thin pad. All in all a very good looking piece. The Browning BLR is also available in pistol grip version and both versions are now available in takedown models. (For more information, see the BLR reviews on the Product Reviews page.) Here are some Browning .450 BLR facts and figures:

• Length: 40 in. overall
• Weight: 7 lbs.
• Barrel Length: 20"
• Magazine Capacity: 4 rounds
• 2009 MSRP: $859.

Let's Compare

The Browning's action is smoother than the Marlin's and when fired quickly from the shoulder the shorter throw and smoother action make it better for quick follow-up shots. The BLR's action uses a front locking, rotating bolt operated by a lever. Winchester's old Model 88 and the Sako Greywolf are previous examples of this more modern take on a lever action rifle.

One thing worth mentioning at this point: Marlin lever actions acquired a crossbolt safety in the mid-1980's that was designed to prevent accidental discharges when letting the hammer down to half cock. This feature is excellent safety-wise, but actually gives the Marlin a "double" safety when used in conjunction with the typical half cock safety position used for over a century on such rifles.

No big deal, you say. I say way big deal. If, or when, a close encounter of the animal kind occurs and a quick shot is necessary, the crossbolt safety will (if used) prevent the rifle from discharging/firing and that could be a very unpleasant thing. If this safety is inadvertently left on when you want to shoot a deer, "click," not "boom," will be the result. Irritating, yes, but not dangerous. Change the scenario to a large bear or a big hog at uncomfortably close range and it takes on a completely new meaning. As a dangerous game rifle, the BLR has some advantages over the Marlin. In typical hunting scenarios, the choice is a matter of personal preference.

A much wider range of .45-70 factory loads are available, ranging from lead "Cowboy" loads with velocities barely over 1,000 fps to minimize recoil, to 400 grain jacketed bullets at 1900 fps. The latter is a thumper load, believe me!

The .450 Marlin cartridge is found in only two factory loadings by Hornady, the designer of the cartridge. One is a 325 grain LeverEvolution bullet with a velocity of over 2200 fps and the other is a 350 grain FN bullet at 2100 FPS. Loads such as these are what these rifles' legends are built on. Ammo makers such as Stars & Stripes, Buffalo Bore, Corbon and Grizzly Ammo all offer some very powerful loads for both cartridges. If a hunter/shooter absolutely wants the most powerful lever available without reloading or searching out $50/box +P ammo, then the .450 makes great sense. At this writing, even with the continued climb of ammo prices, Hornady LeverEvolution ammo is still a relative bargain for the .450 Marlin.

My rifles will likely stick with Hornady fodder, for the time being. The .45-70 shooting the LeverEvolution 325 grain load for deer and bear and the .450 shooting both of Hornady's offerings, the 350 FN for an upcoming bear hunt and the 325 LeverEvolution when used for deer and elk hunting.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/450marlin.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm
my most accurate 450 marlin hand loads are ,
a 405 remington bullet over 50 grains of imr 3031
and a 215 fed primer
about 1900 fps

rifle recoil calculator
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

 

[Grumpy]

btw gentlemen I just figured I'd ask,
(after several similar local conversations)
what your thoughts are concerning the use and desirability of the 35-50 caliber rifle calibers, for hunting ?
personally I tend to prefer them, simply because I use cast lead projectiles on many rifles, as it reduces cost and has little effect on efficiency in many cases.
At least in my area, currently you can pick up used 35 Remington, and marlin 44 mag lever action and single shot, rifles fairly cheaply, the 45/70 comes a bit higher used but certainly all can be found in various conditions for under $400

 

[Grumpy]

I had a good laugh this weekend, Allen (one of the guys I occasionally hunt with) has for decades refused to even try to shoot my 458 LOTT, rifle.

yes I have,shot hundreds of cartridges while at the range and dozens hunting hogs and deer and even elk, and in my personal experience, in my personal CZ 458 lott, the shorter 458 win case feeds and functions fine but its not as accurate , now the difference in my case might be a 2" 100 yard 458 lott group vs a 458 win shooting 3.3" 100 yard groups off a bench rest, certainly no effective difference in minute off elephant or charging lion at typical hunting ranges., that being stated I use my remington 458 rifle if I want to shoot the 458 win ammo.
to be fair almost all the ammo I load and shoot is loaded to velocity levels lower than max potential like 540 hard cast, bullets, at about 1900 fps and 350 hard cast loaded to about 2200 fps in the 458 lott, or remington 405 jacketed at about 2200 fps in the 458 lott.
I have developed a real respect for the rifles accuracy but you need to use a decent sling and a vest with a past recoil shield to feel reasonably comfortable shooting either rifle off hand or from a bench rest and theres no way Id suggest you shoot either rifle shooting prone.

for decades hes been telling everyone that anyone who owns or even voluntarily hunts with that rifle must be
"a handful of fries short of a happy meal"
well he finally tried it out at the range and was both amazed and surprised, to find out,
that when he used the sling properly , that it not only didn,t hurt him permenanly, it was in his words " not nearly as bad as I thought it might be"
and this was not a single shot deal, he shot a 5 shot 100 yard group of the bench that was about 3" in diameter,
(hardly what the rifle in skilled hands is able to do but certainly reasonably consistent for a first time shooter off the bench group!)
now admittedly it was not a max load but it was what I use to hunt with, a 535 grain hard cast , bullet, chronograph-ed at a consistent 1900 fps (2100 fps is easily reached)
77 grains of ww-748 or varget powder
with a 215 fed primer and bullet seated to max length that will function in rifle
https://www.loaddata.com/MetallicSearchResults
this load will shoot clear through any elk from any reasonable range or angle , simply based on the fact it punches through some rather large tree trunks I tested it on, and exits easily

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...liber-458-459-diameter-535-grain-semi-pointed
cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% pure tin

remember that if you hand load ammo you can load a 458 Lott any power level from something like a 45 colt or 44 mag up to an elephant
stopper


https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/rel...s-458-winchester-magnum-taming-dangerous-game

 

[Grumpy]

I recently read a range report from a guy with a good sense of humor that described his first time firing a 458 LOTT caliber rifle,
he fired this rifle off of a bench rest!
he stated


"

I settled in behind the gun as it lay on the support bags on the bench rest, and put the padded butt stock against my shoulder,
and rested my cheek against the stock, I was a bit concerned but, hey how bad could it really be?
I grasp the front stock and gradually applied pressure to the trigger ......
I woke up about 12 feet behind the bench,
Id been knocked back over and out of the chair,
my vision was blurry, my nose was bleeding,
I wondered if anyone knew where my right shoulder landed!
the first impression was I,d be hit with a truck,
and this old geezer from the next bench over,
was gently slapping my face,he seemed concerned...
and he asked me if I needed help putting my shoes back on

I laughed out loud...... that was a huge grin!
It brought a tear to my eye laughing
and yes if your not used to a serious big bore rifle,
and don,t know how to use a sling properly,
I could easily see your getting that impression.

 

[Grumpy]

now obviously you don,t need a 458 win to hunt, but many guys enjoy hand loading and casting their own bullets and a 45 caliber rifle is ideal for that purpose., and while Jack resisted buying a heavy caliber for years he bought a ruger 458 falling block a few years ago after he got more familiar with bullet casting and hand loading

the butt stock cartridge sleeve that holds 8-9 cartridges is almost a mandatory accessory like a sling on most rifles in my opinion

I was just on the phone to Jack when he mentioned he had recently gone on a hog hunt using his 458 win , ruger rifle.
he had been playing with various hand loads and found, that the light weight lyman cast bullets (link below)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...8-459-diameter-292-grain-flat-nose-bevel-base

loaded over a very mild charge of
45 grains of imr 4064 and a 215 federal primer, proved to be both devastating on hogs and pleasant to shoot as the recoil was almost,
negligible in his 458 win, I think I remember him saying velocity was near 1700 fps
but I'm not sure, but keep in mind even if that's true, that would certainly place the energy up in a level that exceeds 1880 ft lbs ,
certainly enough to destroy a hogs vitals.
I asked him too tell me if the light weight lyman cast bullets leaded the rifling because its not a gas check style bullet,
and he stated that the leading was very light, and very easily cleaned.
I suggested he might want to get this similar gas check design,
but a mild load like that would be fine for hunting deer at ranges under 200 yards, and provide a good deal of ,
potential extra use for a rifle designed for larger dangerous game.
this is one reason I,ve found,
cast bullets and hand loading really have the potential to make owning and hunting with these 45 caliber rifles more versatile and interesting.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...er-458-diameter-300-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

remember the casting alloy , rifling twist and land and groove style, and depth and surface condition, and the lube and the sizing effect leading

https://www.buffaloarms.com/bullet-moulds/buffalo-arms-bullet-moulds

full power loads with 510 grain bullets at 2100 fps have close to 70 ft lbs of recoil

those lighter loads come in about the same as a 30/06 at about 18 ft lbs of recoil



http://www.chuckhawks.com/458Win.htm

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/7/18/all-business-the-458-lott/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/12/26/soft-loads-for-safari-rifles/

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=458 Winchester Magnum&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Source=

 

[Grumpy]

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/41203#reviews
damn good price but you better grab it during the sale
these regularly sell for $800 around here and are usually hard to find as they sell quickly out they are currently available for about $670-$730

these rifles are about ideal for use with hand loaded cast gas check bullets, in the 350 grain to 450 grain weight range and certainly capable of dropping any game within its ideal effective range, (0-to-300 yards)
keep in mind that in over 45 years of hunting elk I doubt I had 4-5 chances to make a shot at over 300 yards, so despite, the modern obsession with owning a rifle with a high velocity and flat trajectory your generally not going to be at a big disadvantage, with its less than lazer flat trajectory , as most game is shot at under 200 yards
while a 45 LC is certainly not a true big game caliber and certainly not in the class with the 45/70, or 450 marlin let alone the larger 458 win or 458 Lott, its still able to effectively kill deer and hogs out at 100 plus yards in skilled hands.

of course theres a higher quality option that costs 3 times as much, but personally I don,t think its three times as good as the marlin
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/long...e/pedersoli-1886-far-west-rifle-26-45-70.html

 

[Grumpy]

Deer Hunt with Browning BLR .450 Marlin

This year, I bought a new Browning BLR in .450 Marlin with a Monte Carlo stock and no iron sights. I topped it with a Trijicon AccuPower 1-4x24 scope on Talley BLR rings. The total weight of rifle, scope, and rings is 8.25 lbs. Since this rifle has no sling mounts, I ordered a Blackpowder Products “The Claw” Shotgun Sling. Before fielding this gun for hunting season, I sent it to Robar for a refinish in black Poly T-2, and then to Neil Jones for trigger and action work. I am very happy with both jobs. The black Poly T-2 finish looks good and feels durable, and I am no longer paranoid about maintaining the blued steel finish or worrying about corrosion. I have no idea what the BLR’s trigger felt like before Neil’s trigger job, but I had read many stories about gritty, heavy BLR triggers. In fact, it seems the trigger is the only thing BLR owners generally complain about, so I didn’t want to take the chance. I have custom trigger jobs on my 1911’s and am a bit of a trigger snob, so a good trigger is important to me. I have to say this BLR trigger by Neil Jones is crisp, smooth, and breaks cleanly. I didn’t get a chance to measure the pull weight, but it is reportedly around 3 lbs. Although the Browning BLR is a unique looking gun that others have said is “ugly” or “weird,” I personally find it very attractive. The design isn’t “classic” lever action, but the profile of the stock is thin, the wood looks good, and the short barrel design make it very handy. The Trijicon AccuPower 1-4 scope is just the right size for this rifle, in my opinion, and I like how the black Poly T-2 finish matches the Trijicon scope and the Talley mounts.

Here is the data for the loads I was shooting on this hunting trip, which were made for me by Custom Ammunition, LLC in Florida:Hornady new brass, trimmed to 2.090
Hornady 300 Gr. Hollow Point
IMR 4198 42.8 grains OAL 2.530

Entering this load in QuickLoad says it is at 83% case fill and should leave the muzzle of my 20” barrel .450 Marlin @1878 fps, @2350 ft.lbs. of energy, @24857 psi, and @88.4% of powder burnt. I ran this load through Hornady’s online ballistic calculator, which showed a drop of -1.7”@125 yards, -4.5”@150 yards, -8.4”@175 yards, and a whopping -13.5”@200 yards. So I plan to keep my shots within 150 yards with this setup, needless to say, absent a lot of practice. The stands I sat in this rifle season didn’t present shots that far, anyway. Shouldering the gun quickly, with its Monte Carlo stock and the Talley BLR rings, brings the scope right to my eye with a good cheek weld on the stock. In various lighting situations, the BDC reticle and crosshairs were easy to spot, and the green dot and segmented circle are nice in low and ambient light. Like all illuminated reticles, it washed out almost completely in bright light, but the etched reticle still remains black and razor sharp. I topped the scope with Butler Creek flip-open covers.Now for the actual hunting performance of this rig: at 8.25 lbs. with a 20 inch barrel and a good sling, it’s comfortable taking on extended walks through the woods. While sitting in the stand or against a tree during the preceding four or five days before I actually shot a deer, I had been practicing quietly and quickly shouldering the rifle and finding the reticle. When it counted, I was able to do so. It was late in the morning when I shot my deer, so I had the reticle illumination dialed to 11, and the illumination was visible. I had tested it against a target in bright, full sunlight before and knew the reticle would not be illuminated under bright daylight circumstances, but pointing the scope at brush, the reticle was illuminated. The BLR is a very handy rifle, and the Trijicon 1-4 balances it very well. I shot my first buck of the season on Thanksgiving morning. The shot was just behind the shoulder, directly through the heart, at about 75 yards. The buck was a medium body four point. Nothing to brag about, but still a buck in a hunting camp that has been pretty low on deer lately. The exit wound seemed to indicate a good expansion without causing excessive damage like a high-powered rifle round might do, and the heart was completely obliterated. The buck ran a short distance before expiring and falling down the hill. I was very pleased, as the ammo did exactly what I wanted: mild recoil, full pass-through penetration, and expansion at .450 Marlin distances on deer-sized game.

Entry wound:

Exit wound:

So there is my report. I am very happy with this set up and will continue hunting with it in this terrain. If I ever hunt at longer distances or in open fields which might present 200 yard or longer shots, I’ll look at a different rifle for that kind of hunting.My future plans for this rifle are to work up my own hard cast load using 420+ grain WFN gas-checked bullets at 1500 to 1650 fps.