The Absurdity Of Splitting Hairs On Cartridge Selection

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
I've listened to endless discussions on what might be the ideal rifle or cartridge, over at least 6 decades,
we all have our favorites and many of the guys I've hunted with.,
own a rather extensive collection of hunting rifles.
I recently had a couple of the local guys over as its deer hunting season,
and while we had a few beers, relaxed a bit, and reloaded a few cartridges,
the ever-popular subject of deer rifle cartridge selection came up.
now when I was much younger this held a great deal more of my attention,
but as I gained field experience,
I came to realize that the skill and experience of the hunter had a great deal more to do with a hunters success,
than the headstamp on the cartridge case, being used.

yes there are significant differences in effective range and penetration, etc,
but even a relatively weak cartridge like a 30/30 or 243 win will kill an elk or deer,
if the guy using it understands its range and similar limitations and can shoot it well.
Id have saved a wheelbarrow of cash ,
if Id stuck with just a couple of my favorite rifles.

I'd seen a 100 grain bullet from a 257 roberts, prove 100% lethal on a couple of large elk and I've used a 44 mag revolver to kill both deer and elk,
I've watched a couple guys, I hunt with, use surplus 6.5MM Swedish mausers with iron sights,
to kill mule deer out at 200-250 yards just as fast and effectively,
as some guy with a new commercial 7mm rem mag that cost at least 5 times as much money.
I've used a 340 wby or a 375 H&H rifle on many hunts,
and never found anything lacking in range, power accuracy or anything else.

If Id have just realized that , a bit faster,
I could have saved 5 decades of cash and practice using other rifles.:rolleyes:
(but then I'd have missed a great deal of experience and maybe..dozens of "out state hunts.):(

I've also used a 257 wby and a 358 win, a 338 win mag, and cast bullets in a 45/70,
and in florida a 44 mag carbine is quite commonly all you need.
the big secret? every choice worked if the guy using the rifle had some skill in its use,
and could hit where he intended to, consistently,
and understood the rifle and cartridges limitations.

so I,m sitting there and one guys suggesting that he really will be vastly better armed with a 6.5mm creedmore:rolleyes: he sees advertised.
vs the 30/06 hes used with 100% success for decades makes zero sense to me,
especially when I know for a fact the guy rarely takes shots over 200 yards.
and in the 40 years I've known him, and if he can consistently shoot a 2" 100 yard group off the bench hes very happy!:D
no deer or hog hit in the identical place on their anatomy,
with either cartridge is likely to react much differently or run a significantly greater distance after being hit.
theres just not that much difference in lets say a 140 grain 6.5mm bullets impact
energy transfer or penetration,
and a typical 150 grain 30 caliber bullet moving a bit faster from a 30/06 on your typical deer.

I doubt he's spent more than a few dozen days at the local range,in the last 40 years,
so I asked him, what do you think that new 6.5mm will do for you that the current 30/06 won,t do,
other than the temporary pleasure of owning a new rifle,
and the fact that the rifle, scope and reloading dies etc.
will be costing you about $1.5-$2K or more :mad:
and take up a bit more space in your rifle safe??
now if you want a new toy thats fine,
but its unlikely to do much to increase your hunt success ratio,

Id point out that, realistically 95% of the hunting we do in florida is in thicker brush,
and 150 yards range would be an exceptionally long range shot.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ge-and-rifle-combo-in-a-deer-elk-rifle.16611/

 
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I think you hit it on the reason I buy guns is to have a new toy every year I shoot a buck I retire that rifle and buy a new one not because I have to but because I want to that and I convinced the GF years ago that its bad luck to use a rifle after you killed a buck with it and she bought it but the real reason is I like to shoot and reload and its my hobby and I enjoy it
 
I got a couple of e-mails asking for a bit of clarification or suggestions on how to select the proper or close to ideal cartridge.
I would suggest
If you select a rifle cartridge that provides
A MINIMUM IMPACT ENERGY

for deer
about 1000 ft lbs of energy and at least 100 grains of bullet weight out AT THE POINT OF IMPACT
for elk
About 1500ft lbs of energy and at least 130 grains of bullet weight, out AT THE POINT OF IMPACT

heres a link to a ballistic calc program (near the bottom)

lets look at 6 cartridges and retained energy and trajectory



a 6mm rem this will potentially push a 100 grain bullet to about 3075 fps in most rifles
figure your average bullet has a .400 ballistic cof.
you get about a 425 max range for deer and about a 200 yard max range for elk
but max effective range where the bullet stays within 4" of the intended impact is about 300 yards



a 270 win
this will potentially push a 130 grain bullet to about 3175 fps in most rifles
figure your average bullet has a .380 ballistic cof.
you get about a 550 max range for deer and about a 350 yard max range for elk
but max effective range where the bullet stays within 4" of the intended impact is about 340 yards

a 30/30 win
this will potentially push a 170 grain bullet to about 2075 fps in most rifles
figure your average bullet has a .280 ballistic cof.
you get about a 180 yard max range for deer and about a 50 yard max range for elk

but max effective range where the bullet stays within 4" of the intended impact is about 220 yards

a 358 win
this will potentially push a 250 grain bullet to about 2350 fps in most rifles
figure your average bullet has a .400 ballistic cof.
you get about a 600 yard max range for deer and about a 400 yard max range for elk

but max effective range where the bullet stays within 4" of the intended impact is about 230 yards



a 300 wby
this will potentially push a 180 grain bullet to about 3075 fps in most rifles
figure your average bullet has a .320 ballistic cof.
you get about a 525 max range for deer and about a 420 yard max range for elk
but max effective range where the bullet stays within 4" of the intended impact is about 330 yards

a 375 H&H
this will potentially push a 270 grain bullet to about 2675 fps in most rifles
figure your average bullet has a .380 ballistic cof.
you get about a 700 max range for deer and about a 525 yard max range for elk
but max effective range where the bullet stays within 4" of the intended impact is about 270 yards


ID also suggest you sight any big game rifle to hit about 3.5 " high at 100 yards and limit shots to where the bullet drops about 3.5" below the intended point of impact


http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php


https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/

I have to point out that in 50 plus years of hunting, the opportunity to make a shot at game at ranges exceeding 250 yards,
has been almost non-existent,
simply because game tends to stay in cover during daylight hours,
yeah, on paper a 300 mag has a huge range advantage over a 35 whelen, in reality you rarely see game at ranges the 35 whelen can.t easily handle, my late hunting partner used a 358 win blr for 3 plus decades and never had a shot over 250 yards and he killed over a dozen elk.
(with a speer 250 grain bullet that was loaded to 2340 fps at the muzzle)
 
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A question came up at deer camp that me and 2 others who I consider knowledgeable enough to listen to them my buddy built a blind on a power line that has a real 350 - 400 yard shot that I was going to hunt out of. First without good sunshine its almost impossible to see deer even close by second I was using my Tikka 7mm08 and none of us were sure about using it the adjusted reach at 400 yards and the impact were questioned and none of us were sure of it so I took my 7mm Mag I didn't get a shot but I have another chance on Saturday so I'm going to put some calibers of guns out of guns I own All have good scopes either a Leupold or Nikon Pro or a Vortex Diamondback the 300 Mag and the 30-06 I know are capable but other choices are 300 Savage , 308 , 6.5 Creedmoor ,25-06 , 7mm08 , 7 Mag , what choice and what ones would you have confidence to take that 400 yard shot
 
every cartridge you listed is in theory,( if the correct bullet is used), fully up to dropping deer at 400 yards with proper shot placement
the 7mm mag and 300 mag would be close to ideal,
IF POWER ON TARGET WAS THE MAIN CONCERN,

the 30/06, 6.5mm Creedmoor and 25/06 certainly not far behind,
the choice would be made mostly in my case by what ever rifle I felt more confident in using.
a GOOD 115-120 GRAIN BULLET IN THAT 25/06 WOULD BE HARD TO BEAT.
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/25-cal-257-117-gr-interlock-btsp#!/
obviously, you'll need to work up a load but about 49 grains of imr4831 and a 215 fed primer should give near 2960fps and sighted in at 3.5" high at 100 yards,
put the horizontal scope cross hair on his upper back line and the vertical through the shoulder and you should have good results
lg_939252552%2025%20Cal%20_257%20117gr%20BTSP.jpg


deeranty.jpg
 
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