the longer I hunt the more I like the 33-38-45 cal

[grumpyvette]

the longer I hunt the more I like the 33-38-45 caliber rifles
the longer I hunt the more I have come to appreciate the effectiveness of the 338-375-458 caliber range or cartridges from the 338 federal and 358 win, the mid power choices like the 35 whelen, and 338 win up to the 340wby and 378wby,458, etc. in fact, Ive come to use that basic caliber range almost exclusively.
obviously what you hunt and where you hunt will effect your caliber selection, but I find that I grab my 358 win BLR for most whitetail and hog hunts, for hunting the timber for elk and mule deer the 7600 rem in 35 whelen or 338 carbine has worked exceptionally well or if I expect long range shots accross canyons a 340 wby or 375 h&h for ELK
while its true the smaller 270-30 cal class has some real long range screamers with flat trajectory's Its been years since Ive even had the opportunity to shoot at ranges over 350 yards so exceptionally flat trajectory is of little value where I hunt mule deer and elk.

how about you gentlemen?

Ive hunted ELK over 40 years and in several states, and Ive never had a problem with my 340wby mark V and hornady 250 grain bullets over a stiff load of H4831
every last one Ive shot died within a few yards

I may be wrong, but I've always assumed that most ethical and experienced, hunters will use and exercise,
reasonable judgement, before making a shot and only shoot under conditions they feel confident in making the shot well,
and have a respect for game, and have a solid grasp on their personal limitations.
I have also noticed as you stated that a good many people seem to think the rifles recoil level can be objectionable and that it effects their accuracy.
obviously thats a factor each of us has to deal with and tolerance differs wildly.
obviously no one can control others judgment, but felt recoil can be significantly reduced
use of a PAST recoil shoulder pad , a rifle stock recoil pad, and proper use of a sling and bi-pod goes a long way toward reducing the potential problem.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0094310010

no thats not my rifle but its damn near its clone
how many of you gentlemen have and use a bi-pod on your rifle?
Ive used the 13.5" /27" swivel bi-pod for decades on my 340 wby synthetic bolt action, rifle.
the bi-pod allows you to have a steady rifle rest shot from both a prone or seated position,
now I'm sure I'm in the minority and many guys will object to the added weight , but I've learned to hunt by glassing and covering a great deal of ground slowly,
the key here is in carefully selecting the areas hunted and not randomly wandering aimlessly.
you want to study topographical maps carefully, and have experience, you can look over the options, get into productive areas well before other hunters and set up, before first light, allowing you to benefit from the influx p o hunter pressure as they move through the are disrupting game movement, and increase your odds of success by hunting ,
natural travel routes and terrain choke points, and not wasting time glassing the areas with lots off easy road access.
elk and deer learn very quickly that travel, during daylight, near logging roads with vehicle travel access , is not safe.
if you set up to glass for game on a natural game travel choke point , like a narrow side canyon, that has a creek and cover youll up your odds significantly.
having a bi-pod on your rifle and a good familiarity with your rifles trajectory sure helps.

• 

Click image to open expanded view

HB25CS 25C Model S -13.5-27" Swivel Bipod
by Harris Engineering

I still use my 35 whelen 7600 pump action,and 450 marlin blr

UNLIKE this, I painted my stock camo ,and mounted a 2x-7x Leopold scope but its been 100% dependable, you just drive the slug thru the top of the heart or arteries above the heart and the slug gets the job done
most of the people that own a 458 win or 458 LOTT, or 458 wby, will never put the rifles sights on a rhino,
elephant , cape buffalo, or similar members of the African dangerous game.
yeah, we may dream about it, but financial reality keeps stomping on those dreams.
but what you can do is hand-load the rifles to a bit lower velocity and play with, and enjoy them.
Ive hunted with a guy who has used a 458 win with cast bullets for decades,
Ive also used a 458 win and 458 LOTT using more appropriate power levels
(450 marlin velocity levels) with 350-to-540 grain hard cast bullets.
used that way they are very effective deer, hog, and even elk hunting tools,
yes they may be limited to about a 250 yard practical range due to practical trajectory.
but news flash, in 50 years of hunting deer and elk , I could count the opportunities,
I or any of the members of my hunting club have had to shoot elk at over 250 yards on one hand,
with a couple fingers left over.
you certainly not going too need a 458 lott or 458 win to hunt elk, but both rifles hand-loaded
to hot 45/70 / 450 marlin, power levels make excellent thick timber elk rifles where range under 200 yards are the rule and a 400 grain bullet at perhaps 1800 fps-2200 fps make a very effective elk hunting rifle
I think there would be a great many more 458 win rifles sold is there were more people with experience hand loading the 458 win with the lighter bullet weights at moderate velocities.
I purchased a remington custom shop 458 win mag rifle for about 2/3rds of what the original; owner paid and got a box of factory winchester ammo with 500 grain bullets and an empty 20 cases, which I was assured was the full extent of its previous use as the original owner decided its recoil was FAR higher than he could tolerate!

Ive been looking for, and really wanted, a stainless/laminated ruger #1 in 458 lott at a decent price for about 10 years, ever since one of my buddies bought one at a local gun show for $900, he loves his, I reload for him, and no he refuses to sell his.
every time I have the cash I either can't locate one, or theres a family crisis that used all the saved cash
given a choice that would be my next rifle

but its not the rifle, or caliber its something almost any reasonable rifle caliber can do if the shots placed correctly, because Ive used a 35 whelen , 358 win,and a 30/06 to get similar results
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/6...MIkZ21-e7W3wIVA1uGCh2DXgWYEAYYAiABEgJkffD_BwE
I get asked why not get a 300wby vs the 340 wby?

either caliber with the correct bullet works just fine, but after using both a 300 mag and seeing the results dressing out elk others have killed with a 300 mag and using my 340 wby mag with 250 grain hornady bullets, and seeing those results, Ive stuck with that combo for almost 40 years as my opening day ELK rifle
you don,t need a magnum, a 30/06, 35 whelen or even a 358 win will kill any elk, but if your into thumping them hard at longer ranges the wby calibers do that just as you might expect,
if you have to select a single elk hunting rifle and you don,t know the range youll see elk at its hard to beat a 340 weatherby, its got a bit of recoil and its heavy, probably not ideal if your jump shooting elk in timber (thats why I generally swap to a 35 whelen for hunting timber)but Ive NEVER lost an ELK I hit with the 340wby , most dropped within a yard or two,of being hit certainly its proven to be a great rifle, lets put it this way, both my sons and I all carry 340 wby fibermark rifles by choice and have for many years now on opening day hunts, its by far the rifle Ive killed the most elk with.
get a good bi-pod and range finder and print out a good drop table laminate it and tape to the stock, sight in 3.5" high at 100 yards
http://www.6mmbr.com/rangefinders.html

these little gizmos are great to have handy along with your rifles trajectory table if your into taking shot over about 260 yards

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

calculate then print out on a 3x5 card your rifles trajectory, check it at the range and laminate the card and tape it to your rifles butt-stock as a reference

example heres my 340wby
50 +1.5
100 +3.4
150 +4.1
200 +3.4
250 +1.3
300 -2.4
350 -7.8
400 -15.0
450 -24.2
500 -35.5

use of a good bi-pod, designed for shooting from a sitting position,an effective recoil pad sewn into your jacket shoulder, and shooting sling go a long way to making accurate shooting in the field with a 340 wby far easier, you can get near bench rest accuracy in the field if you find a decent location to set up to watch across a meadow or canyon if you use those accessory and find a place where you can rest your back against a large stump or tree

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/699899 ... bidextrous

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... u=00053S25

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0678544052

 

[grumpyvette]

I just got back from a trip to the range with a friend that's been on over a dozen ELK hunts with me over the years,
where I sighted in a new 4x Leopold scope on my 450 marlin BLR rifle, while my friend who was also sighting in his new 358 win BLR, for our next ELK HUNT, was sighting in..
While I was there a younger guy was on the next bench on the opposite side from my friend, Im guessing was about 24 years old, was sighting in a 300 mag, and it was rather obvious that the recoil was making him flinch, his targets showed his accuracy was very inconsistent, even off the bench rest.
we started talking and I ask him why he had the 300 mag, and it turned out hes going on his second ELK hunt next year, we discussed, his last hunt where he used a 270 win and he had shot a legal bull but it ran a couple hundred yards before falling, further discussion relieved he had hit a bit further back and lower than intended with his rifle but that seemed to have not registered mentally as a factor in the elk running after it was hit, hence the new 300 mag being purchased.
he then looked over at my lever gun and inquired about what I was hunting, when I informed him it was to be used for hunting ELK in the dark timber he let me know that most ELK were shot at ranges of "300-700 yards" and that my lever action was going to be woefully under powered and would not have the required reach, I smiled and wished him luck (he was obviously going to need it by the truck load if his targets were an indication), (MY FRIEND could hardly keep from laughing, when he heard that)
the younger guy then inquired about my up coming ELK HUNT and if Id ever been hunting ELK before, I told him it would be my 31st elk, hunt in COLORADO (a couple years were archery hunts) and Id hunted 4 years in WYOMING before that, and that the guy on the bench on the other side of me was going on his 13th hunt.
I then pointed out that archery hunts tended to be at a bit less than "300-700 yards" to which he responded that that was because without the pressure and noise of gunfire, elk were far less skittish, during archery season, and then he assured me that once the gunfire echos thru the canyons Id need that rifle range advantage, that a 300 or 7mm mag has.
damn I bet all the ELK Ive killed over the years wish they knew that.....that heavier caliber rifles, with big old slow bullets fired from under 300 yards were worthless and not fatal, but its probably been hard for those ELK to hear that from the freezer, in those zip-loc bags and wax paper, and my partner just kept smiling and egging him on, because the areas we hunt have a decent population of elk (THE WHITE RIVE FOREST, DEEP CREEK,FLAT TOPS,AREAS, IN COLORADO) and yes theres lots of open areas, where a 300 mag could be an asset, but in the last 20 plus years NEITHER of us has SEEN an elk past 250 yards while hunting, simply because any ELK with a working brain ducks into cover at day light in most areas.
cover consisting of aspen ,conifer, and oak brush that you need to sneak thru and locate them in, and its been my experience most ELK try to AVOID detection by staying in the densest , thickest and hard to access ridges,banks,blow-downs and patches of timber or narrow & steep side canyon they can locate

Ive owned two, a 375 H&H and a 458 win, both with proper hand loads were consistent 1"-1.3" three shot group at 100 yards off a bench rest rifles
the 375 liked the 300 grain round nose hornady (no longer made) the 458 liked the 405 remingtons (hard to find)
both were damn good but heavy hunting rifles (youll appreciate the weight it reduces recoil)
I swapped to sako, remington, CZ and weatherby bolt guns in those calibers
and while I don,t regret swapping, to new rifles, in those calibers, I regret selling the ruger single shots as they were nice rifles.
if your going out west to hunt ELK a rifle with a flat trajectory and decent power , that falls in the range between the 270 win and 375H&H will do just fine PROVIDED the guy carrying it knows how to shoot, a cartridge selection like a 300 mag ,338 win, or 340 wby with the correct ammo gives you both flat trajectory and bullet mass, and may be the best compromise for all terrains but its not the rifle nearly as much as the skill of the guy holding it that will effect the results, and the skill to use any reasonable rifle caliber within its design limitations, but don,t assume its your only option or that something like a 308 win , 30/06, 325 win, 358 win,or 444 marlin, 450 marlin, won,t produce consistent kills in skilled hands

 

[grumpyvette]

If youve selected a good long range rifle like a weatherby mark V WITH A HEAVY BARREL IN CALIBER ,340 WBY OR 338/378 WBY OR EVEN A 338 WIN,
your bullets must be selected to match your goals, IE a good hunting bullet may or may not be as accurate as a good target bullet in YOUR RIFLE but theres going to be a noticeable difference in its predictable performance on game, punching paper for scores is a totally different game than busting a ELK at 500-800 yards and the bullet selected MUST take that into account.
those 225 grain hornadys are usually very accurate if loaded over a stiff load of IMR 4831 in several of my freinds rifles , or my rifle, and they work well on elk but they would not be my first choice for 800-1200 yard target work in competition.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=979793
a bullet like this is a better target design, and while its not a hunting bullet ,hit anything will 300 gains of bullet and its going to do damage, THE HEAVIER CALIBERS LIKE 338 VS THE 7MM-30 CAL TEND TO CARRY MORE ENERGY OUT TO LONGER RANGES MORE EFFICIENTLY


bullet design's differ remarkably
example
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/de ... ber=222421
Ive used these and loaded these for several freinds, they work reasonably well at killing ELK but tend to shed jackets shortly after impact, with less penetration than some other designs Ive used.

these 250 grain hornady spire point bullets are my favorite hunting .338 caliber bullet, they open slowly and usually shoot thru and exit breaking any bones as they zip thru, and make an accurate and dependable load
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/de ... ber=767308

 

[bob]

I just bought a BROWNING lever action in , caliber 450 marlin for deer hunting.
I just bought a 2.5 power scope and matching scope rings
yeah, been there many times, back in the 1970s I saw a buddy impressively drop two deer in very rapid succession at about 200 yards with a marlin 444,
he used 240 grain soft point bullets
I went out and bought one, it worked ok, it worked better after I found 265 grain hornady bullets,
but after awhile in the later 1980s I upgraded to a marlin 45/70 , and got into casting 350 grain, bullets and eventually upgraded to a 450 marlin BLR, when they came out with those in about 2000, using 405 grain bullets,
accuracy and stopping power were marginally better after each upgrade, as group sizes shrunk and bullet weight increases and AS I GAINED MORE EXPERIENCE AND SKILL,
the results I got improved.(group sizes became more consistent and slightly smaller, with each change)
now I'm not about to suggest there was anything wrong with any of those calibers, or rifles and,
I doubt any deer or elk would not have dropped if hit well with any of those rifles.
certainly all those rifles would shoot under 2" bench rest groups and the BLR is consistently under 1" three shot groups off the bench rest,
but I don,t know anyone who can keep a consistent 2" or less 100 yard three shot group shooting from a field position,
so I doubt any deer or elk would notice.
but I certainly felt each upgrade was worth the money

btw thanks for these threads and links to the targets to print guys, once I print it with 1" squares Ill make a couple dozen copy's and go to the range this weekend with the new toy!

viewtopic.php?f=97&t=4560

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=2370&p=9272&hilit=printable#p9272

Ive used several,HAND LOADS, but NEVER FACTORY LOADS,I doubt youll go wrong with this
72 grains of WW760, 215 primer and 270 ,grain Speer boat tail
its NOT a hot load but its very accurate in my SAKO carbine, and several guys in my elk camp have borrowed that SAKO carbine and killed ELK and wanted to buy the carbine after seeing it did so well in the timber, shots out to about 300 yards have worked great, but I can,t say much further as every ones killed elk under that range.
keep in mind when your throwing a 270 grain bullet at about 2570fps its going to expand but punch clear thru an elks chest

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=
I received a brief e-mail asking why I seem to be promoting the 450 marlin BLR
Im not promoting any caliber or action type, simply pointing out what I see rather frequently, used.

while earlier in the thread,and in other threads, Ive stated Ive used a SAKO 375 H&H carbine hunting thick timber hunting elk.

well thats a good observation
Ive used BOTH rifles and the 375 H&H sako manlicher carbine similar too these pictures

my late hunting partner vastly preferred the 358 win BLR
(mostly Id bet because the 358 win was available when he started hunting elk and the 450 marlin only came out after he passed on)
well Ive watched a great many guys hunt, the thicker timber slopes where ranges tend to be well under 100 yards and you certainly don,t want any game you shot running any distance,
heavy bullets in the 30 caliber and larger in the 180 grain or heavier range work rather well.
and you certainly are unlikely too, get your choice in distance or the games stance or choice of shot angle.
many prefer those larger bore Marlin and browning lever actions, as you can get a very rapid second shot.
two factors come to mind here
(1) few guys I know have ever needed a rapid second shot
(2) even fewer have developed the well practiced skill of rapidly working a bolt action while your in recoil,
from the first shot and not removing the rifle stock off your shoulder.
I find most guys are faster making a follow up shot or at least having that second cartridge re-chambered with a lever action,
and while that might seem to be an advantage, once you have developed the knack of using a bolt gun with out removing it from the shoulder,
while working the bolt, I feel the advantage is negligible if it exists... especially when I rarely see a second shot from either rifle is required.
like I stated, pick what YOUR familiar with and COMFORTABLE useing....your un-likely to make a bad choice.


now I rarely shoot from more than 250 yards so keep that in mind, but that stagger around like they are drunk, once hit correctly,is a very common reaction I,ve seen with good hits when I use the 340wby and 375H&H, sometimes they stand around or stagger about like drunks for 30-40 seconds before collapsing, sometimes they act like they are going to run, but can,t quite figure out how too, now obviously if they show any indication at running you belt them a second time, but if the legs just get spread or they start back peddling its a fair bet they will drop in seconds in my experience , Id say easily 60% of the Elk I shot dropped withing 3-5 seconds and 30% plus did that (stagger around drunk routine before pitching on their nose) that reaction is markedly different from the typical, I'm heading for the next state at a dead run, reaction I got a few times with a 30/06, now they only ran 30-50 yards before falling but it was one major factor in what made me feel the 340wby-375H&H were far better choices, the 30/06 was just as fatal it just seems it takes the elk a bit longer to recognize the fact compared to the larger calibers