the thumper concept, in selecting a defensive hunting rifle

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
I got asked by a friend if I thought purchasing a custom lever action in 500 S&W would be a good idea
,he found one locally listed for $1900 that cost the original owner $2600,
he stated he wanted a devastating (STOPPING RIFLE), A 500 S&W is a pistol cartridge, that is HARDLY a stopping rifle,
it's a potent pistol cartridge ,but it has no where close to the power something like a 458 LOTT , 600 nitro express or 460 WBY has.
keep in mind that in the over 55 years I hunted deer and elk in multiple states ,
and those types of game are easily killed with a 270 win or 308 in the hands of a skilled marksman.
it was very rare to even see game at ranges over about 200 yards simply due to terrain and brush,
game tends to favor hanging out where food and cover is common.
I simply pointed out that similar ballistics could be had from a marlin in 45/70 or browning lever action, chambered in 450 marlin
the 450 marlin BLR rifle, if properly loaded with 400 -430 grain bullets is devastatingly effective,
in fact it's become a favorite rifle for many of the guys I hunt with.
carry what you shoot most accurately and worry, far more about IMPROVING
your skill in locating and getting in close for a well placed shot!

I don't remember anyone saying the hard cast bullets failed to exit or elk ran very far after impact.
the ideal stopping rifle throws a bullet of sufficient weight (mass and caliber) to drive lengthwise, completely through any animal,
and exiting leaving a devastating wound, while expanding to at least 1.25 times its original diameter.
obviously the ideal rifle changes with range and the animal your confronted with,
and it may make sense that the larger the animal, the larger and heavier the projectile ,
but that's only partly true as accurate shot placement, depth of penetration and destroying critical organs,
and a knowledge of the animals anatomy is FAR more critical
you'll have a hard time finding something faster more accurate or more lethal for use in the thick aspen and conifer than a browning BLR chambered in 450 marlin, loaded with 350-405 grain slugs that being said, most of the experienced elk hunters I've hunted with
for 5 plus decades started out with a dozen types of rifles yet now most older guys prefer the BLR in CALIBER 358 WIN , or a remington 7600 in caliber 35 whelen, we all started out reading magazines advising use of flat shooting bolt actions in 7mm and 300 mag calibers, over decades we found shots at elk at over 250 yards are very rare, and shorter lighter weight carbines that hit hard are ideal.

Browning_BLR.jpg

being well aware of both the games anatomy and your rifles limitations will be MANDATORY if you want to consistently drop game effectively. the cartridge you select is less critical than how well you understand the rifle so chambered limitations and how well you shoot!
you don't need a super long range magnum, most game is shot at well under 250 yards, what you do need is to carry and practice with a gun you handle well, can practice with and become proficient in its use, this is made far easier if you handload.
I suggested he buy a BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win-450 marlin like I own,

if he shops carefully he can most likely find one under $1100, new
as it much less expensive and more powerful, and ammos cheaper.
big bore lever actions are very effective but are marginally limited in range ,
most have projectile velocity limits under 2300 fps with bullets in the 250 grains -405 grains of high enough sectional density to penetrate well and consistently. at under 200 yards where 90% plus of games shot.
a 500 S&W in a rifle might sound impressive but its less powerful than a 450 marlin or 45/70
and much less than a 458 win or 458 lott,
a 358 win, 35 whelen,338 win mag, 340 wby or 375 H&H have the range and bullet weight to be very effective
out past 200 yards in skilled hands


ok, most of us can easily spend decades hunting and never come close to having any need for a similar rifle ,
that might be required to stop a bear charge at bayonet ranges, under conditions
used to save our lives where we become the prey rather than the hunter.
you calculate power or muzzle energy with the following formula
bullet mass x velocity x velocity /divided by 450240= ft lbs of energy

most experienced hunters suggest you try to stay over 4000 ft lbs in a stopping rifle,
and over 2500 ft lbs, in a decent elk cartridge at the minimum, but of course range matters
and limit shots to ranges where you can consistently and accurately place your shots.
(in a 4" circle) and you damn well better know the games anatomy and location of vital organs

that knowledge and your skill, may be required,\ to save you from being killed by some vengeful angry, animal.
as always consistent and accurate, shot placement is a required component in any hunting kill.
most choices are a compromise, more recoil generally slows your efficiency making a follow-up second or third shot.
and you might only get a single shot or at most two, at much closer ranges, so absolute dependability is critical.
reality is that most people rarely hunt any animal that might attack you ,with the desire and persistence to warrant/require the use of a "stopping rifle" here in America, but there are a few exceptions.
now if you hunt AFRICA or ALASKA and game like elephants brown bear, lions or cape buffalo,
your obviously going to have someone point out that the 458 win or 458 LOTT have a long standing record of being used successfully,

both throw a .458 diameter bullet, but the 458 win is generally loaded with a 510 grain weight at about 2100 fps while the 458 LOTT can boost velocity about 200-250 fps faster with the same projectile.
yeah, the 45/70 and 450 marlin can be loaded with a 400-450 grain projectile and both are well known and effective , but neither has the velocity to become a true stopping rifle. (but either ones devastating on elk inside 250 yards in skilled hand when properly loaded,
, those velocities in any of the 458 caliber rifles, might seem a bit slow compared to other more common hunting cartridges, most of us are more familiar with like a 308 win, 30/06 , 270 win, 6.5 Mauser, or 7mm mag, but keep in mind most of the more common hunting cartridges throw a much lighter weight 135 grain-180 grain bullet at maybe 2400-3000 fps.
these may be lethal on deer or elk, and if it takes 20-30 seconds to drop a deer after bullet impact it might not be a huge problem ,
but that time lag, might be marginal or could be critical, if your rifle is asked to stop, a charging brown bear,
fully intent on shredding your butt, instantly at spitting distances.
being chewed on by a pissed off bear for 30 seconds, before it bleeds out, could easily be lethal
producing a wound that will rapidly become fatal, or killing something vs stopping a determined charge ,
by extensively breaking larger bones and driving a projectile through several yards of muscle, destroying organs reliably require a bit more penetration, and you can't have the projectile turn into glitter on impact with a heavy shoulder bone or glancing off a skull, even once in a 100 shots, with a stopping rifle.
there's a second class, of rifles with a bit more velocity, the 375-416 class where the rifles trade off a bit of projectile weight for a bit more projectile velocity
the 416 Rigby, 416 Remington, 375 H&H and 378 WEATHERBY, these throw a 270-300 grain bullet at 2400-3000 fps,
you might, with careful selection and research ,get a very marginal reduction in recoil ,
and higher velocity, making the rifle better for a flatter trajectory, while still providing very respectable penetration.

related info






there are larger bore lever actions that provide devastating power at closer ranges but none are STOPPING RIFLES,
but yeah they can be very effective at under 100 or so yards on larger game, especially like lions, bears elk etc.
these make excellent hunting rifles in skilled hands






btw
one of my close friend's used a ruger single shot 458 win with handloads ,
these lever action are not stopping rifles but have proven results on elk for decades
(as have several marlin 45/70 rifles used with 400 grain hard cart bullets)
and another used a browning BLR in caliber 450 marlin both have provided excellent results on ELK and DEER
we have used mostly 405 grain remington and speer bullets and 350 grain hornady bullets at 1900 fps (marlin 450)-2100 fps (458 win ruger)


shooting wood never much impressed me, as a test medium, and if you use a longer 8"-10" barrel in a 44 mag,
loaded with the correct alloy bullets (95% WW and 5% pure tin mixed by weight,
it easily shoots through most games vitales at ranges under 100 yards
as you get much better penetration in GAME,
a 405 grain hard cast zips through an elk and exits ,
even if larger bones are punched and broken in every case Ive seen.
keep in mind the heavier, 450-540 grain bullets from a 458 win or 458 lott penetrate even better
 
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GREAT ON BOTH DEER AND ELK

this 430 grain mold, hard cast gas check bullets have become a favorite ,
but I don.t suggest going much heavier or accuracy suffers from what Im told
(I've never used anything heavier in my BLR than 430 grain, bullets
and 405 grain bullets seem more accurate in my experience.)
I would certainly feel adequately armed with a properly loaded BLR in caliber 450 marlin.
I don't think anything walking in north America can absorb more than a couple well placed shots from a 450 marlin BLR,

loaded with a 405 hard cast gas check bullet loaded over 50 grains of IMR-3031 powder and a 215 federal primer
I would strongly suggest use of a
45/70, 450 marlin ,375 H&H, 416 Remington, 378 wby or 458 Winchester ,
with heavy weight bullets, and take the time & effort to learn bear & elk anatomy,
and where to place your shots for maximum internal damage
if you hunt any bear.
(and lots of practice in rapid rifle manipulation, with your weapon of choice, is MANDATORY)


YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAMES ANATOMY AND YOUR SKILL AT CORRECTLY PLACING SHOTS,
is much more important than what cartridge you use,
PROVIDING you hit the vitals with enough
penetration to destroy the vitals,
(but it never hurts to use a fairly powerful rifle, IF YOU CAN STILL SHOOT IT WELL!)
there's a difference between landing a lethal shot,(a mortal wound)

and rapidly disabling the games ability to move, FLEE or attack!
yes you need to understand your rifles limitation,
its the skill of the hunter more than the head stamp on the cartridge that matters
 
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I can assure many of this web sites readers that the Remington model 7600 slide action rifle in a chambering of 35 Whelen,
is one of the most sought after, and well respected options many of the older more experienced elk hunters I hunt with,
and prefer to use, and its been very much sought after among the hunters, I have hunted with for 5 plus decades,
especially when loaded with a 250 grain Speer bullets being preferred.
I recently acquired a browning BLR in caliber 450 marlin, as my thick cover elk rifle,
I've used Remington 405 grain jacketed bullets on many hunts and hard cast gas check 405 grain bullets on a few hunts recently,

all loaded over 50 grains of IMR 3031 powder which seems to be the sweet spot,
in high velocity with good consistent accuracy.
but most of the experienced guys still prefer the BLR in 358 win of rem 7600 in 30/06 or 35 whelen

having the ability to handload a rifles ammo is sure to reduce your costs in the long term :like:
 
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https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/35-Whelen.pdf










this Remington 35 Whelan pump action rifles, have become one of the most sought after rifles by the guys I hunt with,
(the 180 grain Speer bullet is preferred for deer the 250 grain for elk)
and I've seen several professional outfitters that swear its the best option they have use for hunting elk in the steep aspen country I've hunted for decades.

it might seem funny but I purchased a rem 7600 in 35 Whelan, and many of the guys I hunt with,
had never even heard of the cartridge, but now 30 plus years later 6 of the guys I hunt with,
now own one, and won't sell it , as its become something of a status symbol of sorts, and several more of the guys are kicking themselves,

having had a chance to buy one, but passing up the opportunity when they were more easily located,
and they are constantly looking to purchase one used now that they are no longer available new!

yeah ruger and Remington sell bolt action 35 Whelan rifles, but they are not as sought after.
between the browning BLR (lever action 358 win chambering) and the Remington pump,7600 ,
in caliber 35 Whelan, Id say almost all the guys I hunt with prefer one or
the other for deer and elk in the thick aspen and timber out in Colorado,
both use the 250 grain Speer bullets almost all the time
the 35 Whelan pushes that bullet to about 150-175 fps faster, but the elk all react similarly, they either drop, or stumble around and drop seconds later, its basically come down to which action, lever or pump you prefer, both cartridges and rifles are 100% effective and lethal, and where I hunt shots over 250 yards are almost unheard of

1662440074583.png
 
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your far better off with a pistol you shoot well than a much more powerful one you have that you can't hit shit with.
and for most people a 12 ga shot gun loaded with slugs or a 308 or larger rifle they shoot well is advised.
pepper sprays a joke!
most game departments advise you wear bells and carry pepper spray,
if hiking in bear county
so you don't mistakenly surprise a bear while hiking in remote areas

there's an old joke

how do you tell grizzly bear crap from black bear crap?

that's easy
black bear crap is full of berries , bits of fish scales and might smell like pepper spray

grizzly bear crap is full of berries, bells, torn clothing ,bits of fish scales or deer fur,
bits of careless camper's muscle tissue and might smell like pepper spray


there's ALWAYS a compromise in the four factors
you need to consider seriously, rifles are inheritably more accurate than handguns

a single well placed hit from a 375 H&H or 458 win may be instantly lethal

but most people don't own, carry or shoot those rifles accurately under stress

accuracy

if you can't draw and hit the target in under 2 seconds at ranges under 20-30 feet your screwed
and if you carry your defensive firearm on your shoulder or in your back pack,

your likely going to be dead if suddenly attacked

penetration
anything that does not have at least the penetration of a 6" 357 mag revolver,

using hard cast 158 grain bullets, and most people don't shoot handguns fast and accurately.
is very unlikely to work out well.
and a 357 mag is pathetically under powered compared to a 45/70 carbine with a hard cast 405 grain bullet's

rapid target acquisition
its up to you to practice and keep a firearm in good working order,
keep it fully loaded, and in easy reach at all times
( Always carry rifles/shotguns in your hands or pistols in an easily accessed holster)

rate of repeat fire
RAPID
repeat hit probability works in your favor,
PRACTICE MATTERS, only well placed hits to vital organs,
and projectiles that easily shatter large bones,

thus get the desired results


 
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In all the years of hunting I know I have never stretched the limits of the gun I was using except maybe a 12 gauge slug gun but most of my rifle shots on deer were not even close to the guns limits from the smallest caliber 25/06 that I've used over the years to the 300 Win mag and a lot of in between you just don't get those shots in the Pa. woods where I hunt I've never tried pistol hunting yet, and there is no real bear threat. I've seen 4 black bears there in 25 years
 
We have black bears living in the neighborhood here in Gulf Breeze, FL...middle of a golf course. Coyotes as well... had one in my front yard during daylight morning hours recently.
 
when I lived in Florida I saw Black bears in the everglades occasionally
(there's supposedly none, but they are not all that rare TRUST ME!)
I almost always carry a shoulder holster with a large caliber revolver, while hunting,
but when I lived in Florida, they were not legal game in the areas I hunted
those I saw usually looked you over and wandered off, neither being interested aggressive or scared of you!
wild feral, Brama bulls ,gators, rattle snakes and python snakes were more common in some areas
, and they occasionally would show sign's of being rather irritated if they saw you,
but I never shot one or thought it was necessary
feral hogs were very common, I've shot dozens, many were aggressive if cornered,
but most fled as soon as they sensed your presents


now out in CO.AND WY,AND IDAHO where I've hunted finding bears coming to the area,
where your dressing out your deer/elk or finding the gut pile missing and bear tracks is VERY common.
while your chances of being attacked are low the consequence's could be very personally, lethal,
and your very likely to be a long way from medical help at the time.
and its one reason Id strongly suggest you never have your rifle more than an arms reach away, and suggest you carry a 44 mag , 10mm handgun or if you primarily hunt with a handgun, a large caliber revolver
( use of, shoulder holsters, or in a few cases chest holsters,
opplanet-desantis-right-hand-black-black-mamba-m40ba05z0-fdfeff.jpg

are a huge improvement over most belt holsters with larger revolvers)
btw don't assume you need a 500 mag,
a 44 mag , loaded with hard cast 300 grain bullets over 21 grains of h110,
JPYvkNQ.jpg

(the load I shot completely through an elk with several times)
that you can shoot well, and regularly practice with,

is far better than having a 500 mag you can't hit shit with!
BTW 22 grains of blue dot powder under the LEE 440 grain bullet works very well in the 500 mag revolver
H22021-L256804554_original.jpg

a 440-510 grain hard cast in the 500 mag,
can provide impressive and consistent results
but the larger diam of the 500 provides more shock effect on game,
simply due to its larger surface area destroyed.
Id also point out that you really don't need this power level,
but it never hurts if you have access and required skills
a good shot using a 44 mag with 310 grain hard cast bullets,
can shoot through an elk and have the bullets exit,
after destroying the games vitals.

44 caliber
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

Double Cavity Mold C430-310-RF

Double Cavity Mold C430-310-RF by LEE RELOADING PRODUCTS430 Grain 310 Grain Round with Flat Requires Gas Check handles and sprue plate are included with mold
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com



50 caliber


www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

Double Cavity Mold C501-440-RF

Double Cavity Mold C501-440-RF by LEE RELOADING PRODUCTS.501 Diameter 440 Grain Round with Flat Requires Gas Check Handles and sprue plate are included with mold. Produces a .501 diameter 440 grain round nose bullet suitable for a cartridge like 500 S&W.
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
 
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The farm /woods where I help out and hunt and shoot in SW Pa. isnt really supposed to have bears but I have seen 4 at different times and some of the other farmers say they have seen them I don't take them as a threat but I always have a rifle on my Quad or tractor for coyotes too
 
I strongly suggest use of a heavy for caliber, hard cast, gas check, bullet when handgun hunting,
as hollow points tend to open very rapidly and occasionally fail to penetrate deeply ,
and reliably/consistently break bones, this is rarely an issue on small fla deer,
but it can be on large hogs or bears ESPECIALLY out west ,
where you might deal with elk or very rarely a pissed off black bear, grizzly's
 
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BTW I've used both pistols and rifles to hunt a large varied group of game over 55 plus years,
shot placement trumps power, but it never hurts to use a weapon with a bit extra punch!
 

GREAT ON BOTH DEER AND ELK


this 430 grain mold, hard cast gas check bullets have become a favorite ,
but I don.t suggest going much heavier or accuracy suffers from what Im told
(I've never used anything heavier in my BLR than 430 grain, bullets
and 405 grain bullets seem more accurate in my experience.)
I would certainly feel adequately armed with a properly loaded BLR in caliber 450 marlin.
I don't think anything walking in north America can absorb more than a couple well placed shots from a 450 marlin BLR,

loaded with a 405 hard cast gas check bullet loaded over 50 grains of IMR-3031 powder and a 215 federal primer
I would strongly suggest use of a
45/70, 450 marlin ,375 H&H, 416 Remington, 378 wby or 458 Winchester ,
with heavy weight bullets, and take the time & effort to learn bear & elk anatomy,
and where to place your shots for maximum internal damage
if you hunt any bear.
(and lots of practice in rapid rifle manipulation, with your weapon of choice, is MANDATORY)


YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAMES ANATOMY AND YOUR SKILL AT CORRECTLY PLACING SHOTS,
is much more important than what cartridge you use,
PROVIDING you hit the vitals with enough
penetration to destroy the vitals,
(but it never hurts to use a fairly powerful rifle, IF YOU CAN STILL SHOOT IT WELL!)
there's a difference between landing a lethal shot,(a mortal wound)

and rapidly disabling the games ability to move, FLEE or attack!
yes you need to understand your rifles limitation,
its the skill of the hunter more than the head stamp on the cartridge that matters
If budget is a concern, and the .458 and .416 caliber rifles are out of range, .375 Ruger is a great performer. Similar to .375 H&H . Good for anything in North America , and getting popular in Africa too
 
yes, that true enough, the camp back-up rifle for several decades was a marlin 45/70 loaded with a 405 grain gas check cast bullet over 47 grains of IMR 3031, that threw that slug at about 1800 fps, it knocked the legs out from under several elk with a single well placed hit.
that rifle was noticeably less powerful that the 340 wby I used frequently,, or a 338 win many guys used.
the truth is its accurate shot placement and a knowledge of the games anatomy that is more critical,
Ive used a handgun in 44 mag to kill elk so power is not as critical as shot placement!
the 44 mag silhouette with adjustable front site and 10 5/8" barrel

293ss&w.jpg

but the real skill is in having the woodsmanship skill required to get into maybe 100-170 yards,
and make a clean shot on the elk , that has no idea your in his area at all, well, before they know your in the area,
its certainly not in the cartridge you carry's power level, I've seen skilled hunters use a bolt action in 257 roberts and 308 win kill elk decisively with a single shot repeatedly, for decades and all my mentors swore a 30/06 was IDEAL!
carry what you shoot most
accurately and worry, far more about your skill in locating and getting in close for a well placed shot!
I've never had a problem using either my sako Mannlicher 375 H&H carbine or my 378 weatherby fibermark rifles on elk,
I carry those simply because Im 100% sure from decades of hunting they work!
but the truth is both are far more powerful that the game requires a much cheaper rifle in 35 whelen or 338 win does the job very well with ammo that costs far less and rifles that recoil far less.
in fact the two most prized and respected rifles carried by my mentors after several decades of trying different options
are the 35 whelen in a remington 7600 pump and a browning BLR in 358 win.
 
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My Grndpa hunted everything he could get tags for with a 7mm rem mag. Moose, elk, lots of deer, hogs, etc. He used off the shelf cheap ammo and a peep sight too. He was a US marshall in Alaska in the 60's. Had a Piper cub and everything. The photos he had of hunts from then were incredible. Game was just bigger back then....
 
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