timing advance?

[grumpyvette]

" HEY GRUMPYVETTE??
I have a new timing light like this one http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_19 8...
I am trying to figure out how to use it properly and find out what my initial timing, total timing, and the timing curve. I set my 350 SBC to 14 degrees BTDC at 750rpm, initial timing. Then I raised the rpms to 3500 where the timing mark stopped moving and pressed the button to 16 degrees which brought back the mark to where the balancer mark is lined up with the tab at 14 BTDC. Add these to numbers together and I am at 30 degrees total. The curve timing is where the mark started to move and where it finished moving, correct?"

watch video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYGU7mTw ... r_embedded

your more or less correct but the "curve" needs to be checked carefully and graphed out to be 100% correct simply because the advance may or may not be consistent as the rpms increase.
(ID also point out that most of the (DIAL BACK) style timing lights have a deserved reputation for less than outstanding accuracy)
ID STRONGLY SUGGEST READING THESE THREADS and OTHER LINKS POSTED IN THIS THREAD ALSO

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=875

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=967

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1809

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=251&p=299&hilit=+shims+gear#p299

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=2798

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=202
you've got 16 degrees of advance between 750rpm and 3500rpm, over a span of 2750 rpm, but that does not necessarily mean the timing advances 1 degree every 172 rpm as the engine speed increases


Gaining Performance from Ignition Timing


Entry-level racers and performance enthusiasts who are involved in Drag, Oval, or Street performance often have difficulty understanding spark advance. The cool thing about ignition timing is you can usually get a considerable performance increase for little or no money. But, some time and effort will be required.



Let's start with a simple explanation of why we need spark advance and how much of it we want.

First – When you hook up the timing light to the #1 spark plug wire and it flashes a light beam onto the timing tab, it’s showing you when the spark occurs, NOT when the ignition occurs and the explosion that starts to push the piston down the cylinder.

We want this to happen just as the pistons reach the top of the compression stroke, but it takes time for the spark plug to ignite the fuel mixture. This “time” is measured in crankshaft degrees and is the difference between when the plug fires and the explosion occurs to push the piston down the cylinder – producing the power stroke.

Next – How much “time” or how many degrees of advance is correct. Well, that changes with each application but in most cases it will be as much spark advance as we can get as soon as we can get it without having detonation or “ping”.

Now that we know why we want spark advance and that we want all we can get without detonation – How do we get it?

If the engine is already in the car and running, we will have to hope the timing mark is correct. If you are building an engine or having one built at a shop, make sure the timing mark is correct; use a dial indicator on the #1 piston head to find “top dead center.” Also, if the damper is easy to get to, put a 38° mark on it to use as a reference on the stock timing tab. The formula we use is (Dia. X 3.1416 _ 360 x 38), this distance will be 38° on whatever diameter damper you are using.

Now we know the timing tab is correct, and we have a 38° mark on the damper, we can now start to work on our timing “curve.”

Most racing and street performance ignitions do not have vacuum advance and the stock type distributors that are sent to a shop to be recurved should have the vacuum advance removed and locked out. For this reason we will deal only with mechanical advance. If you send your distributor to a shop to be recurved they can get you pretty close to the correct curve on a distributor machine. We usually install a 26° mechanical curve that starts about 100 rpm higher than the engines idle rpm and have all 26° in by 2,800 rpm, this is a good general purpose timing curve when used with 12° initial timing set at engine idle.

This, however, is not perfect or optimum for any one combination.

A street/strip car that runs on pump gas may “ping” with this much spark advance and will require less initial advance or heavier springs to slow down the “curve.” Where as a low compression, low stall speed converter car may respond better with more initial spark advance or lighter springs for a quicker “curve” – but watch it if you begin your mechanical advance curve at or below the idle rpm, the car will be a real pain in the ass to drive and tune.

For circle track applications, these motors almost always operate over the rpm where total advance is needed so the timing “curve” is not nearly as important as having the correct total spark advance. This is where the 38° mark is very handy to have. We have had much success with instant advance curves in these engines. This is where we start engines on about 10° of spark advance and the instant it fires, the timing goes to the total advance – as long as you use high enough octane fuel this gives a nice clean idle and very quick response.

As you can see, there’s a lot you can do with ignition timing, and every engine will require a specific curve and total spark advance, but if you take the time to sort out what’s best for your engine, you will gain performance without spending a lot of money, and isn’t that what we are all after.

– Tech Tip courtesty of Jensens Engine Tech

[/b][/color]

theres a good deal more related and very useful info, in the links below


http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/sett ... index.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/howto ... index.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/howto ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=232

http://www.centuryperformance.com/ignit ... g-219.html

http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0013.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/advance.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ignition-system1.htm

http://www.streetperformance.com/m/cats ... e-kit.html

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywor ... qncw0p3w_e

http://www.corvettefever.com/techarticl ... index.html

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki ... istributor

 

[grumpyvette]

obviously you need to have a consistent base line advance curve to work with,
on most Chevy v8 engines that run cams designed for street/strip use Ive generally found a advance that goes from about 8 degrees at idle speed (800-900rpm in most cases) and smoothly advances the ignition to about 36 degrees or about 28 degrees advance from where it started at to reach 36 degrees at about 3200rpm , is generally a good place to start, or about 82 rpm increase per degree of ignition advance , up to about 3200rpm, where increase turbulence and squish tends to speed the burn process, you can then play with the engine and determine what changes MIGHT be require

WATCH THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYGU7mTwsZc

Technical Information Bulletin Rev H 9-30-07
Distributor Vacuum Advance Control units
Specs and facts for GM Distributors
Introductory article and numeric listing by Lars Grimsrud
Lafayette, CO
Technical Analysis & Description Article by Duke Williams, MSME, Redondo Beach, CA
I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion and questions regarding distributor vacuum advance control units; what do they
do, which ones are best, what was used on what, etc., etc. To clarify some of this, I thought I’d summarize a few
facts and definitions, and provide a complete part number and specification listing for all vacuum advance control
units used by Chevrolet on the points-style distributors. I’m also providing a listing of the specs for all other GM
(non-Chevrolet) control units, but without the specific application listed for each (it would take me a bit too much
time to research each part number by application across each of the GM Motor Divisions – it took me long enough
to compile just the Chevy stuff…!). This latest revision to this paper also includes the HEI listings and an
outstanding technical article on the subject of timing & vacuum advance by renowned automotive engineer Duke
Williams.
As always, I’m going to include the disclaimer that many of these are my own comments and opinions based on my
personal tuning experience. Others may have differing opinions & tuning techniques from those presented here. I
have made every attempt to present factual, technically accurate data wherever possible. If you find factual errors in
this information, please let me know so I can correct it.
Background
The vacuum advance control unit on the distributor is intended to advance the ignition timing above and beyond the
limits of the mechanical advance (mechanical advance consists of the initial timing plus the centrifugal advance that
the distributor adds as rpm comes up) under light to medium throttle settings. When the load on the engine is light
or moderate, the timing can be advanced to improve fuel economy and throttle response due, in part, to the slower
flame travel in the combustion chamber under these conditions. Once the engine load increases, this “overadvanced”
condition must be eliminated to produce peak power and to eliminate the possibility of detonation
(“engine knock”). A control unit that responds to engine vacuum performs this job remarkably well.
Most GM V8 engines (not including “fast-burn” style heads), and specifically Chevys, will produce peak torque and
power at wide open throttle with a total timing advance of 36 degrees (some will take 38). Also, a GM V8 engine,
under light load and steady-state cruise, will accept a maximum timing advance of about 52 degrees. Some will take
up to 54 degrees advance under these conditions. Once you advance the timing beyond this, the engine/car will start
to “chug” or “jerk” at cruise due to the over-advanced timing condition. Anything less than 52 degrees produces
less than optimum fuel economy at cruise speed.
The additional timing produced by the vacuum advance control unit must be tailored and matched to the engine and
the distributor’s mechanical advance curve. The following considerations must be made when selecting a vacuum
advance spec:
How much engine vacuum is produced at cruise? If max vacuum at cruise, on a car with a radical cam, is only 15
inches of Mercury (expressed as inches Hg), a vacuum advance control unit that needs 18 inches to peg out would
be a poor selection.
How much centrifugal advance (“total timing”) is in effect at cruise rpm? If the distributor has very stiff centrifugal
advance springs in it that allow maximum timing to only come in near red-line rpm, the vacuum advance control
unit can be allowed to pull in more advance without the risk of exceeding the 52-degree maximum limit at cruise. If
the engine has an advance curve that allows a full 36-degree mechanical advance at cruise rpm, the vacuum advance
unit can only be allowed to pull in 16 more degrees of advance.
Are you using “ported” or “manifold” vacuum to the distributor? “Ported” vacuum allows little or no vacuum to the
distributor at idle. “Manifold” vacuum allows actual manifold vacuum to the distributor at all times. Ported vacuum
was used as an emissions method control to retard timing at idle (by eliminated vacuum advance) in order to reduce
hydrocarbon emissions.
Does your engine require additional timing advance at idle in order to idle properly? Radical cams will often require
over 16 degrees of timing advance at idle in order to produce acceptable idle characteristics. If all of this initial
advance is created by advancing the mechanical timing, the total mechanical advance may exceed the 36-degree
limit by a significant margin. An appropriately selected vacuum advance unit, plugged into manifold vacuum, can
provide the needed extra timing at idle to allow a fair idle, while maintaining maximum mechanical timing at 36. A
tuning note on this: If you choose to run straight manifold vacuum to your vacuum advance in order to gain the
additional timing advance at idle, you must select a vacuum advance control unit that pulls in all of the advance at a
vacuum level 2” below (numerically less than) the manifold vacuum present at idle. If the vacuum advance control
unit is not fully pulled in at idle, it will be somewhere in its mid-range, and it will fluctuate and vary the timing
while the engine is idling. This will cause erratic timing with associated unstable idle rpm. A second tuning note
on this: Advancing the timing at idle can assist in lowering engine temperatures. If you have an overheating
problem at idle, and you have verified proper operation of your cooling system components, you can try running
manifold vacuum to an appropriately selected vacuum advance unit as noted above. This will lower engine temps,
but it will also increase hydrocarbon emissions on emission-controlled vehicles. Running straight manifold vacuum
to the vacuum advance control unit is recommended for most applications where emissions are not an immediate
concern.
Thus, we see that there are many variables in the selection of an appropriate control unit. Yet, we should keep in
mind that the control unit is somewhat of a “finesse” or “final tuning” aid to obtain a final, refined state of tune; we
use it to just “tweak” the car a little bit to provide that last little bit of optimization for drivability and economy. The
vacuum advance unit is not used for primary tuning, nor does it have an effect on power or performance at wide
open throttle.
With these general concepts in mind, let’s review a few concepts and terms. Then it’s on to the master listing of
specs and parts…..:
Part Number
There are many different sources for these control units. Borg Warner, Echlin, Wells, and others all sell them in
their own boxes and with their own part numbers. Actually, there are very few manufacturers of the actual units:
Dana Engine Controls in Connecticut was the manufacturer of the units for all three of the brands just mentioned,
but Standard Motor Products (SMP) bought Dana a few years ago, making them the manufacturer of the units. So it
doesn’t make much difference who you buy from: They’re made by the same manufacturer. The part numbers I
have listed here are the NAPA/Echlin part numbers, simply because they are available in any part of the country.
For Wells part numbers (Autozone), drop the “VC” prefix and use a “DV” prefix.
ID#
Every vacuum advance control unit built by Dana, and sold under virtually any brand name, has a stamped ID
number right on top of the mounting plate extension. This ID, cross referenced below, will give you all
specifications for the unit. So now, when you’re shopping in a junkyard, you’ll be able to quickly identify the
“good” vs. the “bad” control units. Original GM units do not have the same identifier. However, the original units
can be identified in that the last two digits in the stamped number indicate the number of crankshaft degrees that the
vacuum advance control unit will pull in at its maximum (i.e. number 724 16 is a vacuum advance unit that will pull
16 degrees of vacuum advance maximum).
Starts @ “Hg
Vacuum is measured in “inches of Mercury.” Mercury has the chemical symbol “Hg.” Thus, manifold vacuum is
measured and referred to as “Hg. The “Start” spec for the control unit is a range of the minimum vacuum required
to get the control unit to just barely start moving. When selecting this specification, consideration should be made to
the amount of vacuum that a given engine produces, and what the load is on the engine at this specification. For
example, an engine with a very radical cam may be under very light load at 7 inches Hg, and can tolerate a little
vacuum advance at this load level. Your mom’s Caprice, on the other hand, has such a mild cam that you don’t
want the vacuum to start coming in until 9 – 10 inches Hg. For most street driven vehicle performance applications,
starting the vacuum advance at about 8” Hg produces good results.
Max Advance
Since the vacuum advance control unit is a part of the distributor, the number of degrees of vacuum advance is
specified in DISTRIBUTOR degrees – NOT crankshaft degrees. When talking about these control units, it is
important that you know whether the person you’re talking to is referring to the distributor degrees, or if he’s talking
crankshaft degrees. All of the listings shown in the following chart, and in any shop manual & technical spec sheet,
will refer to distributor degrees of vacuum advance. You must DOUBLE this number to obtain crankshaft degrees
(which is what you “see” with your timing light). Thus, a vacuum advance control unit with 8 degrees of maximum
advance produces 16 degrees of ignition advance in relationship to the crankshaft. When selecting a unit for max
advance spec, the total centrifugal timing at cruise must be considered. Thus, a car set up to produce 36 degrees of
total mechanical advance at 2500 rpm needs a vacuum advance control unit producing 16 degrees of crankshaft
advance. This would be an 8-degree vacuum advance control unit.
Max Advance @ “Hg
This is the range of manifold vacuum at which the maximum vacuum advance is pegged out. In selecting this
specification, you must consider the vacuum produced at cruise speed and light throttle application. If your engine
never produces 20” Hg, you better not select a control unit requiring 21” Hg to work.
The following listing (Non-HEI) is as follows: The first three part number listings are the numbers that cover most
performance tuning applications. Although the old “B1” unit has been highly touted as the general performance
replacement unit, I have found that it is simply too “stiff” to function well in any performance application: I use it
very seldom. Rather, the “B22” should be used as the baseline unit for a mild performance engine, such as a stock
73 Vette. The B26 (same as a B20) is the most generally usable high performance unit, and it can be used on most
performance engines with a factory high performance cam or a modest aftermarket cam. It works very well in
engines with cams up to the equivalent of the CompCams XE262. The “B28” can was used on fuel injected engines
and a few select engines that produced very poor vacuum at idle. The advance comes in very quick on this unit –
too quick for many performance engines. Do not use this very quick unit unless you have a cam/engine combination
that really needs an advance like this. It can be used as a tuning aid for problem engines that do not respond well to
other timing combinations, and can be successfully used in applications where direct manifold vacuum is applied to
the can (see paragraph and discussion on this above). I use it in engines with cams bigger than, and including, the
CompCams XE268 and in auto trans cars that pull poor vacuum in “drive.”
After this, the listing is by Echlin part number. The Chevrolet applications are listed first by application, followed
by a complete listing of all of the units used on any GM product (all GM units are interchangeable, so you can use a
Cadillac or GMC Truck unit on your Vette, if that’s what you want to do).
Non-HEI Distributors:
P/N ID# Application Starts @ “Hg Max Adv
(Distr. Degrees @ “Hg.)
VC1802 B22 1971-72 350 4-bbl 7-9 8 @ 14-16
VC1765 B26 1965 396 Impala High Perf 5-7 8 @ 11-13
or 1966-67 Corvette Exc. High Perf.
B20 1966-67 Impala 427 Exc. High Perf.
1966-68 327 Powerglide Exc. High Perf.
1969 307 All
1969-70 396, 427 Camaro, Chevelle High Perf.
1970 400 2-bbl
1970 307 MT
1973 Camaro 350 High Perf.
VC1810 B28 1965 409 High Perf. 3-5 8 @ 5.75-8
1965 327 High Perf.
1966 327 High Perf.
1964-67 Corvette High Perf. FI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
VC680 B1 1959 – 63 All Chevrolet 8-11 8 @ 16-18
1964 Corvette exc. FI
1964 Impala, Chevy II
1965 396 High Perf.
1965-67 283, 409
1966-68 327 exc. Powerglide
1967-68 All 396
1969 Corvette 427 High Perf.
1969 396 Exc. High Perf.
1969 Corvette 350 TI
1969-70 302 Camaro
1970 400 4-bbl
1970 396 High Perf.
1970 Corvette 350 High Perf.
1973-74 454 Exc. HEI
VC1605 B9 1965 impala 396 Exc. High Perf. 7-9 10.3 @ 16-18
1965 327 All Exc. FI
1969 327 Camaro, Chevelle, Impala
1969-70 Corvette 350 Exc. High Perf.
1969-70 350 4-bbl Premium Fuel
1970 350 Camaro, Chevelle, Impala High Perf.
1971-72 350 2-bbl AT
1971-72 307 All
VC1675 B13 1968 327 Camaro Powerglide 9-11 8 @ 16-18
1968 327 Impala AT
1968 307 AT
1968 302, 307, 327, 350 Camaro, Chevy II
1970 350 Camaro, Chevelle Exc. High Perf.
VC1760 B19 1969 350 Camaro, Chevelle, Impala 4-bbl 5.5-8 12 @ 14-18
1969-70 350 2-bbl
VC1801 B21 1971 350 2-bbl 7-9 10 @ 16-18
1971-72 400, 402
1971-72 307 AT
Other Part Numbers & Specs:
VC700 B3 8-10 11.5 @ 19-21
VC1415 M1 6-8 10 @ 13-15
VC1420 M2 5-7 11 @ 16-17
VC1650 B12 8-10 10 @ 15-17
VC1725 B18 8-10 12 @ 13-16
VC1740 A5 6-8 12 @ 15-17.5
VC1755 A7 8-10 12.5 @ 18-20.5
VC1804 B24 6.5-8.5 10 @ 12-14
VC1805 M13 6-8 12 @ 14.5-15.5
VC1807 B25 5-7 8 @ 13-15
VC1808 B26 5-7 8 @ 11-13
(The 1808 part number has been discontinued by Echlin. It is the same as part number VC1765)
VC1809 B27 5-7 9 @ 10-12
VC1812 B30 5-7 12 @ 11.75-14
HEI Listing
NOTE: The HEI distributors use a longer control unit, so the non-HEI and HEI vacuum advance control units
cannot be interchanged.
The following listing (HEI) is as follows: The first four part number listings are the 4 numbers that are most
commonly used in a Chevrolet performance application. The “AR12” can is the most versatile and user-friendly
unit for a good performance street engine. The AR 15 and AR23 are almost identical, with only slight variations in
their “start-stop” specs. The “AR31” can is the HEI equivalent to the “B28” Hi-Perf can used on the early engines:
The advance comes in very quick on this unit – too quick for many performance engines. Do not use this very quick
unit unless you have a cam/engine combination that really needs an advance like this. It can be used as a tuning aid
for problem engines that do not respond well to other timing combinations, and can be successfully used in
applications where direct manifold vacuum is applied to the can (see paragraph and discussion on this above)
After this, the listing is by Echlin part number. All GM HEI vacuum advance units are interchangeable, so you can
use a Cadillac or GMC Truck unit on your Vette, if that’s what you want to do.
HEI Distributors:
P/N ID# Application Starts @ “Hg Max Adv
(Distr. Degrees @ “Hg.)
VC1838 AR12 1975 350 Buick 7-9 7 @ 10-12
VC1853 AR23 1976 350 All Calif. 5-7 7.5 @ 11-12.5
1976 350 Vette Calif., Exc. Hi Perf
1976 400 All, Exc. Calif
1975 350 4-bbl
1974 350 All w/1112528 Distr.

 

[grumpyvette]

1978 350/400 Heavy Duty Truck, Exc. Calif, Exc. Hi Alt.
VC1843 AR15 1977 305 All Exc. Hi Alt, Exc, Calif. 3-5 7.5 @ 9-11
1974 400 All w/2-bbl
1977 305 El Camino
1976 262 Monza Exc. Calif
1976 350 Vette Hi Perf, Incl. Calif
1975 350 Z-28
1977 305 Buick Skylark
VC1862 AR31 2-4 8 @ 6-8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.pontiacdiy.com/how-to-improve-pontiac-v-8-engine-performance-ignition-guide/
-
VC1703 N/A 1978-79 Vette Special Hi Perf 3-6 5 @ 7-9
1979 305 El Camino Calif.
1978-79 350 Blazer & Suburban
1979 Buick 305/350
VC1825 AR1 1976 454 Caprice, Impala 3-5 9 @ 6-8
1975 454 Caprice, Chevelle, Monte, Suburban
VC1826 AR2 5-7 12 @ 10-13
VC1827 AR3 5-7 9 @ 9-11
VC1828 AR4 1975-76 350 Buick & Olds 6-9 10 @ 12-14
1976 350 Pontiac
VC1831 AR7 6-8 12 @ 14-16
VC1832 AR8 1975-76 455 Buick Electra 4-6 12 @ 12-14
VC1833 AS1 1975-76 500 Cadillac Exc. Calif. 4-6 14 @ 15-16
VC1834 AR9 4-6 13 @ 13-16
VC1835 AS2 1975-76 350 Olds 5.5-7.5 12 @ 15-17
VC1836 AR10 1977 305 All Hi Alt, Exc. Calif. 3-5 9 @ 11-13
1977 350 All exc. Calif.
1977 350 Vette Exc. Calif, Exc. Hi Perf
1976 305 All Exc. Calif
1976 350 All Exc. Vette, Exc. Calif
1976 350 Vette Exc. Calif., Exc. Hi Perf
1975 262, 350 All w/2-bbl carb
1975 350 All 4-bbl w/ 1112880 & 1112888 Distr.
1977 305 Chev Truck Light Duty
1975-76 350 El Camino 2-bbl
VC1837 AR11 1976 305 Blazer, Exc. Calif 6-8 12.5 @ 10.5-13.5
1976 350/400/455 Pontiac 4-bbl
VC1839 AR13 4-6 12 @ 11-13
VC1840 AR14 1975-76 350/400/455 Pontiac Firebird 6-8 10 @ 9-12
VC1841 AS3 1975-76 500 Cadillac Calif. 5-7 10 @ 13-14
VC1842 AS4 1976 350 Olds Cutlass 5-7 12 @ 13-15
VC1844 AR16 3-5 12 @ 13.5-15.5
VC1845 AS5 1978-79 425 Cadillac w/F.I. 4-6 14 @ 14-16
1977 425 Cadillac
VC1846 AR17 1977 301 Buick Skylark 3-6 13 @ 10-13
1977 301 Pontiac
VC1847 AS6 1978 403 Motor Home 4-6 12 @ 12-14
1977-79 350/403 Buick LeSabre Hi Alt, Riviera, Olds
1977-79 350/403 Pontiac Hi Alt
VC1848 AR18 4-6 12 @ 9-12
VC1849 AR19 4-6 12 @ 7-10
VC1850 AR20 1977 350/400 Pontiac 4-6 10 @ 8-11
VC1851 AR21 1977-79 350 Buick LeSabre, Century 5-7 12 @ 11-13
1978-79 350 Pontiac
VC1852 AR22 77-78 305/350/400 Chev Truck, Heavy Duty 7-9 5 @ 12-14
1975-76 350/400 Chev Truck Heavy Duty
VC1854 AR24 3-5 13 @ 10-13
VC1855 AS7 1977-79 260 Olds Cutlass 3-5 15 @ 10-12
VC1856 AR25 3-6 15 @ 10-14
VC1857 AR26 3-6 12 @ 13-16
VC1858 AR27 1978-79 305 All 3-6 9 @ 11-13
1978 350 Camaro
1978 305 Chev Truck, M/T, Light Duty
1978 350 Chev Truck Hi Alt
1978 305/350 Buick & Olds
1978-79 305 Pontiac
VC1859 AR28 1979 350 Vette Exc Hi Perf 3-6 10 @ 9-12
1978-79 305 w/1103282 Distr., Incl. El Camino A/T
1979 350 Camaro, Impala, Nova, Malibu, Monte
1979 350 Suburban
1979 350 Buick Century
1978 305/350 Buick & Olds
1978-79 305 Pontiac Hi Alt.
VC1860 AR29 3-6 12 @ 10-13
VC1861 AR30 1978-79 301Buick 3-5 13 @ 11-13
1979 301 Olds
1978-79 301 Pontiac
VC1863 AR32 2-4 10 @ 11-13
VC1864 AR33 1978 305 Chev Truck, A/T, Light Duty 4.5-6.5 13 @ 11-13
VC1865 AR34 1973-74 350 Vette Special Hi Perf 3-5 15 @ 8.5-11.5
VC1866 AS8 1978-79 425 Cadillac w/carb 3-5 14 @ 13-15
VC1867 AS9 2-4 10 @ 8-10
VC1868 AR35 1979 305 Chev Truck & El Camino 2-4 10 @ 6-9
1979 305 Buick & Olds
1979 305 Pontiac A/T
VC1869 AS10 2-4 12 @ 8-11
Background on the author on the following article:
The following article about vacuum advance controls and timing was written by Automotive Engineer Duke
Williams. Duke has an in-depth engineering understanding of internal combustion engines, being one of a few
hundred living graduates of The University of Wisconsin Engine Research Center where he did emissions related
research and earned a MSME.
Over the last several years he has put together a desktop PC based suite of engine system engineering tools - a
toolset that engineers would have killed for 30 years ago - and he is able to do professional level engine system
engineering. In particular, he has an interest in projects that maintain original engine appearance and overall
operating characteristics, while improving overall performance, which is primarily expressed by torque bandwidth.
He works closely with enthusiasts who have a genuine understanding and appreciation of engine system engineering
principles.
I have personally met and talked to Duke, and I can attest to his in-depth knowledge, both theoretical and practical,
of internal combustion engine principles and applications. His article that follows accurately describes the
requirements for ignition timing and vacuum advance.
Lars Grimsrud
Vacuum Advance Principles and Applications
By Duke Williams, MSME
The basic rule for vacuum advance control (VAC) selection (henceforth referred to as THE RULE):
THE VAC SHOULD PROVIDE FULL ADVANCE AT NOT LESS THAN 2" LESS THAN PREVAILING IDLE
VACUUM AT NORMAL IDLE SPEED WITH APPROXIMATELY 24-32 DEGREES TOTAL IDLE TIMING.
This is a system engineering rule of thumb, and total idle timing should be in the upper half of the range for "big"
(high overlap) cams and the lower half for "mild" (low overlap) cams. With a 16 degree VAC this is achieved with
8-12 degrees of initial timing for mild to medium cams and 12-16 degrees for medium to big cams. Based on
overlap, the "300HP cam" is "mild", 327/350 and all BB cams, except L-88/ZL-1, are "medium", and all SB
mechanical lifter cams are "big". L-88/ZL-1 cams are "REAL big".
Idle vacuum in neutral is an inverse function of effective overlap, and the range on C1/C2 engines is the very high
overlap 30-30 cam, which only pulls 10"@900 to the low overlap base engine SB cams (which were also used on
some optional engines) that pull about 18"@500. All others are in between, except L-88/ZL-1, which are pure racing
engines that were never intended for street use so they were not equipped with VACs. In all cases, typical idle
vacuum is affected by both idle speed and total idle timing. Higher idle speed increases vacuum and, up to a point,
so does increasing total idle timing, which is why high overlap cams need both higher idle speed and higher total
idle timing.
Initial timing should also be established to keep maximum WOT timing in the 34-40 degree range for SBs and 36-
42 degree range for BBs, and WOT detonation may dictate the lower end of these ranges depending on compression
ratio, cam, and operating conditions such as ambient air temperature and altitude. Higher ambient temperatures
promote detonation as do low altitudes where average air density is higher.
Higher overlap increases exhaust gas dilution at idle and cruise, which slows flame propagation speed, which
increases the timing requirement. Insufficient total timing at idle and low speed cruise increases EGT, which will
cause more heat to be absorbed by the cooling system, which can result in high operating temperatures and, in
extreme cases, overheating to the boilover point, even if all cooling system components are within their original
performance range.
Using THE RULE, one of the following three NAPA/Echlin vacuum cans should be appropriate for all C1/C2 OE
engines, including those converted from ported to full time vacuum advance and C1 engines that are converted from
the non-vacuum advance dual-point distributor to a single point vacuum advance distributor.
VACs for modified engines (such as cams that alter OE idle vacuum characteristics) should be selected using THE
RULE.
My system engineering "best fit" for all OE engines is also listed including those not originally equipped with
VACS, but a few "best fit" VACs (396/425, 427/435 and '63 327/340,360) are significantly different than OE, due to
either a poor match to engine idle vacuum characteristics i.e. don't meet THE RULE ('63 327/340, ’65 396/425) or
will not meet THE RULE when converted from ported to full time vacuum advance (427/435, '63 327/360). My
"best fit" for 327/350 is also different than OE, which I discuss below.
VC1802 (stamped "B22") 0@8" 16@16" (283/220, 230, 245, 250, 275; 327/250, 300)
VC1765 (stamped "B20" or “B26”) both 0@6", 16@12" (327/350, 396/425, 427/390, 400, 425, 435)
VC1810 (stamped "B28") 0@4", 16@8" (283/270, 290, 315; 327/340, 360, 365, 375, L-88/ZL-1)
All these VACs are now manufactured by Standard Motor Products, and they can be cross referenced to other
brands (Standard, BWD, Neihoff, Wells, Delco) at the other brands Web sites. The alphanumeric code stamped on
the mounting bracket (B22, B20, B26,or B28) is the code that denotes the specifications regardless of the brand
name/part number.
If you're at the ragged edge of THE RULE a small increase in idle speed - on the order of 50-100 revs - will usually
achieve the 2" difference since vacuum increases with increasing idle speed, and IMO some OEM recommended
idle speeds, especially on SHP/FI engines, are unrealistically low - mechanical lifter cam engines should be idled in
the 800-1000 range, and add at least 100 revs with FI. OE VACs with Powerglide may not achieve the required 2"
margin idling in Drive, in which case the next more aggressive VAC should be installed.
The correct total vacuum advance for most pre-emission Corvette engines is about 16 degrees. Any ported vacuum
signal lines (such as SHP big blocks and '63 327/360) should be converted to full vacuum advance, and on some of
these applications, a new VAC (B28 for 327/360 and B20 for 427/435) must be selected to comply with THE
RULE. The OE '63 327/340 has full time vacuum advance, but the OE VAC does not comply with THE RULE, so it
should be replaced with B28.
A "more aggressive" than necessary VAC (significantly more than 2" difference between idle vacuum and full
vacuum advance) is okay (but not necessarily "ideal") as long as there is no detonation. Too aggressive vacuum
advance may cause transient detonation, such as on upshifts or part throttle acceleration. One choice is to reduce
initial timing, which may reduce total WOT timing below optimum. Another is to install a less aggressive VAC as
long as it meets THE RULE. The "best choice" is to install the "best fit" vacuum can.
Using THE RULE, one of the three above mentioned VACs should provide full advance in the range of 2"-4" less
than typical idle vacuum, which is the "best fit" range.
For example, the 327/350 (L-79) was originally equipped with a Delco VAC (stamped "236-16" - last three digits of
the "long" GMPD number and maximum crank advance as are all other OE Delco VACs) equivalent to the current
B28 replacement , which is more aggressive than necessary. Since 327/350 pulls enough idle vacuum (14"-
15"@750-800) to keep B20 or B26 pulled to the stop at idle with 2"-3" margin, it is the "best fit".
A "not sufficiently aggressive" vacuum can - one that does not keep the diaphragm pulled to the limit at idle to
"lock-in" maximum vacuum advance can cause high coolant temperatures due to insufficient total idle timing, and
variation in total idle timing due to an "unlocked, dithering diaphragm" can lead to idle instability, poor idle quality,
and even stalling! Engine run-on at shutdown is also a symptom of too little total idle timing, which heats up
combustion chamber surfaces and causes preigntion that can also lead to detonation during normal operation. My '63
327/340 suffered from these problems for several years until I realized that the OE 15.5" VAC (essentially
equivalent to the B22) was not suitable to an engine that only pulled 12" at idle. I replaced it with a Delco 236-16 8"
VAC (equivalent to current B28), which solved my idle quality/stability/run-on/detonation problems, and THE
RULE for VAC selection fell out as sure as E=mc**2 fell out of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity.
One other issue. Some think that ported vacuum advance is "correct", but it is NOT on pre-emission controlled
engines.
Ported vacuum advance is an emission control technique to increase EGT, which promotes oxidation reaction in the
exhaust, but it also increases operating temperatures, increases the tendency to detonate and run-on at shutdown, and
increases fuel consumption. With a handful of exceptions, all GM pre-emission engines equipped with vacuum
advance used full time manifold vacuum.
For some inexplicable reason, the '63 FI engine used ported vacuum advance- the first year vacuum advance was
used on Duntov-cammed engines. Maybe GM thought that idle quality (always a problem on FI engines) would be
better with ported vacuum advance, but it wasn't, and the '64-'64 FI engines got full manifold vacuum advance.
L-72/71 have ported vacuum advance to meet CA emissions since there was only one version of this engine for all
50 states.
If your experience with Corvette engines does not go back to pre-emission engines, then all you've ever seen is
ported vacuum advance on emission controlled engines.
Duke

 

[grumpyvette]

what your looking at below in the links and a few basic tools will provide more info,

http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-pump- ... 93547.html
throw a vacuum gauge on the plenum under the carb ,measure vacuum and then measure fuel pressure, because you need to know both

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1853&p=4848&hilit=+air+fuel+meter#p4848

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=2891&p=9279&hilit=plugs+ratio#p9279

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=773

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=383&p=2301&hilit=+power+valve+vacuum#p2301

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=777&p=4546&hilit=+power+valve+vacuum#p4546

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1790&p=4544&hilit=+holley+cam+pump#p4544

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1639&p=4545&hilit=+power+valve+vacuum#p4545

THESE THREADS SHOULD HELP