Total Seal Max Seal Gapless Top Piston Ring Sets

8

87vette81big

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Grumpy Do You have any recent up to date info on Total Seal Gapless Piston ring sets.
I have used The TSS & TS1 in my other Pontiac 455's in past with good sucess.
People either love them or hate them.
I do love them.
Never used Gapless Top. Gapless 2nd sets.
Called Total Seal & talked to a Tech Rep Monday.
The TSS & TS1 Went up. $240 & 265 Respective.
TSS was $135.
Not no more.
MAX SEAL Is $285 still.
Expensive Yes.
Other option is Sealed Power EK Moly.
1971 GTO 455 Project the Max Seal Rings I have in mind.

Worth the $$$ to me if they work.
Pontiac Forums split.
Race guys like.
Honing info up to date be good just for Total Seal Gapless.
Has been revised several times.
 
 
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No Turbo on this engine Grumpy.
N/A.

We used Gapless Rings in 5.0 Renegade cars too.
But Special Tool Steel Ring sets.
For 1400 HP Boosted power.
 
grumpyvette said:
Ive used both the second gapless rings and top gapless rings and standard rings like perfect circle and others and personally I think they are over rated (gapless) as i don,t see the benefits, they provide come near equaling the cost increase
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Yes. I read on your old posts.
 
it would be dificult to prove scientifically that just switching to a gapless ring gives X horsepower increase, i havent read enough about them to understand the marketing logic there but i think a good set of rings (any type) are going to do their job if broken in properly. i find it interesting that in race boosted engines they use gapless when we just widen up the gaps on regular rings in boosted street cars. i say go with what you know.. ive read a few threads here that grumpy posted about not really seeing the difference performance wise, i guess its just a differen way to do the same thing.
 
i have a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) in the past that a certain amount of blow by thru larger ring gaps lets some of these boosted motors live longer. but again you are going to be running NA so its not the same thing.
 
I have noticed the engine crankcase oil stays clean till 2,500-3,000 miles on the street.
Even at 3,000 miles the oil is not black like most Rich AFR Performance engines.
10,000 miles later of hard use cranking compression is still 290-310 psi.
All 8 cylinders read the same. Not even 2psi difference.
No blowby issues out the valvecover breathers.
Total Seal Gapless 2nd ring sets I have used.
Beat the Shit out of the 455's entire time.
 
Gapless piston rings were developed and used in WW2 Warplane Birds.
No good internet history.
Told this by late friend Bill. He was a licenced aviation mechanic back in the day too.
Those old Warbird planes were 2 Stage Supercharged & Turbo charged many of them
40 - 80 psi Boost.
They had 180 motor octane Triptane Gasoline.
Not uncommon in todays Real Racing world.

Using old Tech on V8's to make mega HP & Torque.
Piston Ring Usage in Race engines still a closely guarded secret by Pros yet.
 
Gapless piston rings were developed and used in WW2 Warplane Birds.
No good internet history.
Told this by late friend Bill. He was a licenced aviation mechanic back in the day too.
Those old Warbird planes were 2 Stage Supercharged & Turbo charged many of them
40 - 80 psi Boost.
They had 180 motor octane Triptane Gasoline.
Not uncommon in todays Real Racing world.

Using old Tech on V8's to make mega HP & Torque.
Piston Ring Usage in Race engines still a closely guarded secret by Pros yet.
 
think about this a second, with the engine temps up to operational levels the ring gap is generally in the .007-.005 range and actual piston to bore side clearance is in the .001-.002 range, thats not counting a film of oil covering and filling much of that remaining clearance,and piston temps that can easily exceed 400f , now consider that at even just 3000rpm, theres 25 compression strokes per second, which are taking up 1/4 of that rotational time frame, so in effect, to get gas leakage past the rings you have to forced the compressed gases past two piston ring end gaps (FIRST AND SECOND COMPRESSION RINGS) located in a randomly staggered location, thru a pair of ring end gaps that are about .002 x.006, in less than 4% of a seconds time.
while theres zero doubt that the gapless rings in theory seal a bit better, the real world advantages, are minimal during true operational conditions
 
think about this a second,before spending your cash on gap less rings.that can cost 3 times what standard gap piston rings do,
With the engine temps up to operational levels the ring end gap is generally in the .007-.005 range and actual piston to bore side clearance is in the .001-.002 range, that's not counting a film of oil covering and filling much of that remaining clearance,and piston temps that can easily exceed 400f , now consider that at even just 3000rpm, theres 25 compression strokes per second, which are taking up 1/4 of that rotational time frame, so in effect, to get gas leakage past the rings you have to forced the compressed gases past two piston ring end gaps (FIRST AND SECOND COMPRESSION RINGS) located in a randomly staggered location, thru a pair of ring end gaps that are about .002 x.006, in less than 4% of a seconds time.
when they do those impressive leak down tests the piston and rings are stationary, not reciprocating at and changing between high cylinder pressure and several dozen inches of exhaust scavenging vacuum,25-60 times PER SECOND, like rings in a running engine, nor is the engine operating at anything close to operational temps and pressures
while theres zero doubt that the gap less rings in theory will seal a bit better,if properly installed, the real world advantages, are minimal during true operational conditions, because you can,t force much compressed gas forcing its way past the piston ,down thru a hole on a set of staggered ring gaps, over that very brief time frame, thru what is effectively the size of a hole in a needles eye.
rfig4.gif

ringsealw2.jpg

ringtech1.jpg
 
Yeah I know you hate Gapless Rings Grumpy.
I read your old posts in the topic last weekend on my own.

I have had very good results using Total Seal Gapless Rings.
The Joliet 5.0 guys I know love them like me.

There is no middle ground on this topic. Either you like or not.

I will still have $5-9 k less in my 71GTO 455 Tripower project than my 427 Tall Deck BBC Turned to a 496 BBC Pushing 700-1500 HP.
I know my 455 eill hold up too.
Because I have lots of experience building & running Pontiac 455's.
Since 1994 when I bought my 1970-1/2 Trans Am.
There was no internet.
Just me.
Only way to find out is run Gapless Top or not.
Some names that use them....
Jim Butler & Sons.....3,000 HP Twin Turbo Pontiacs.
Bruce Fupler 421 club.....800-900 N/A Stock Pontiac Engine builder & Drag Racer.
Jim Taylor. Old Man Taylor.
Bill Cerrello.
Nunzi from Brooklyn New York.
Ken Crocie of HO Racing Fame.
Spots Pontiac in Washington State.
SD Performace.
David Vizzard.
Nearly all Super Stock Racers.
List goes on.
 
you seem to be reading something into my answer that,s not there!
Ive never stated that gap less rings don,t work, only that the benefits they provide in my opinion are marginal at best and in my opinion those minimal gains don,t warrant the much higher price.
now if you or anyone else feels the cost is justified why of course use the rings , they will certainly not in my experience cause any problems if properly installed. but look below, at 2.75 times the price, for the gap less rings ,I don,t see the advantage of using them, simply because in my experience they might provide a bit less leakage but Ive seldom seen any problem using EITHER style of rings

EXAMPLE heres
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-e-251k30
heres a typical set of sealed power moly rings for a 4.030 bore sbc for $39 a set
slp-e-251x020_w

Brand: Sealed Power
Manufacturer's Part Number: E251K30
Part Type: Piston Rings
Product Line: Sealed Power Performance Piston Ring Sets
Summit Racing Part Number: SLP-E-251K30

UPC: 053059132628
Bore (in): 4.030 in.
Bore (mm): 102.362mm
File Fit: No
Top Ring Included: Yes
Top Ring Thickness: 5/64 in.
Second Ring Included: Yes
Second Ring Thickness: 5/64 in.
Oil Ring Included: Yes
Oil Ring Thickness: 3/16 in.
Oil Ring Tension: Standard
Gapless: No
Top Ring Material: Iron
Top Ring Facing Material: Moly
Second Ring Material: Iron
Second Ring Facing Material: Cast iron
Oil Ring Material: Stainless steel


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tsr-c ... /overview/
heres a typical set of total seal moly rings for a 4.030 bore sbc for $107 a set

tsr-cr909065_w.jpg

Brand: Total Seal Piston Rings
Manufacturer's Part Number: CR9090-30
Part Type: Piston Rings
Product Line: Total Seal CR Classic Race Piston Rings
Summit Racing Part Number: TSR-CR9090-30

Bore (in): 4.030 in.
Bore (mm): 102.362mm
File Fit: No
Top Ring Included: Yes
Top Ring Thickness: 5/64 in.
Second Ring Included: Yes
Second Ring Thickness: 5/64 in.
Oil Ring Included: Yes
Oil Ring Thickness: 3/16 in.
Oil Ring Tension: Standard
Oil Ring Tension Rating: 20 lb.
Gapless: No
Top Ring Material: Ductile iron
Top Ring Facing Material: Plasma-moly
Second Ring Material: Cast iron
Second Ring Facing Material: Cast iron
Oil Ring Material: Stainless steel
Quantity: Sold as a set.
In-Store Pickup: Choose In-store pick-up (OH, GA, NV) on our web site.
 
BUILD A 4.31" bore 496 big block?
tsr-m3690-5.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tsr-m9190-65 $230 a SET
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tsr-ms919065$335 a SET
ringgr.png

Brand: Total Seal Piston Rings
Manufacturer's Part Number: M9190-65
Part Type: Piston Rings
Product Line: Total Seal Maxseal Piston Rings
Summit Racing Part Number: TSR-M9190-65

Bore (in): 4.310 in.
Bore (mm): 109.474mm
File Fit: Yes
Top Ring Included: Yes
Top Ring Thickness: 1/16 in.
Second Ring Included: Yes
Second Ring Thickness: 1/16 in.
Oil Ring Included: Yes
Oil Ring Thickness: 3/16 in.
Oil Ring Tension: Standard
Oil Ring Tension Rating: 23 lb.
Gapless: Yes
Top Ring Material: Ductile iron
Top Ring Facing Material: Ductile iron
Second Ring Material: Cast iron
Second Ring Facing Material: Cast iron
Oil Ring Material: Stainless steel
Quantity: Sold as a set.


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pcr-3150035-065 STANDARD MOLY RINGS $110

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pcr-3150035-060 STANDARD MOLY RINGS $117
RELATED INFO
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2011/02 ... orsepower/

http://www.stockcarracing.com/techartic ... gs_basics/
beast69camaro said:
At first it didn't look like there was any new information, but then I read this:

"If the pressure between these rings equals or exceeds the pressure above the top ring, it can cause the top ring to lift off the bottom of the piston ring groove and lose contact with the sealing surfaces.....To keep inter-ring pressure from becoming a problem, the current trend is to create an easy escape path for the built-up pressure by gapping the second ring larger than the top ring. Another benefit is that because gas pressure is now directed downward toward the sump, any oil that has collected in the ring pack areas will go with it."

I hadn't considered in my first post that the top ring also seals on the bottom surface of the ring land. The above quote still doesn't explain top ring seal problems (I'm still holding to my original theory), but I see now how ring stability and oil control could be a problem. Suddenly gapless second rings seem like a dumb backward idea. I guess that's why total seal introduced gapless tops:

"At least one ring manufacturer--Total Seal--offers gapless rings. Traditionally, these gapless rings went in the second groove along with a conventional top ring, but ring technology refinements and the new thinking on ring sealing has led Total Seal to revise this installation scheme and introduce a new line of gapless top rings...."

I should have gotten gapless tops, lol.
Click to expand...
 
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