turbo maps, and related turbo info

87vette81big said:
Damn Phill.
You Are The Single & TWIN TURBO GUY TO BREAK 4,500 HP Ib The Street.
Just 1/2 pass WOT Power Required. Shut Her Down early &collect the $100 K.
$10k pays off the 5' O.


Only problem with E85 is its not a true consistent corn alcohol batch to batch percentage.
Can vary 10 points either way.
Need a way to Dielectric test fuel to tune correct.

e85 you are correct could be e70 depending on the time of year and the company that produced it, however (and were getting back into the concept of race gas here) you can buy drums of e98 just like Q16 or 110 or whatever race gas you run and that stuff IS consistently 98% corn piss and usually 2% 110 leaded racing gas.

by the way if you dont use this already (i use it on all my cars and tell all the customers to) then you need to read: http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/carb ... -of-6html/
 
87vette81big said:
Yes Phil.
Familiar with high flow blowoff valves.
From the Vortech YSi Renegade 5.0 guys.


not blow off valves, we are talking wastegates... this is a turbo specific part that controls the boost by regulating the exhaust gas that actually passes thru the turbine!

check it out from https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyg ... wastegates

On the exhaust side, a Wastegate provides us a means to control the boost pressure of the engine. Some commercial diesel applications do not use Wastegates at all. This type of system is called a free-floating turbocharger.

However, the vast majority of gasoline performance applications require a Wastegate. There are two (2) configurations of Wastegates, internal or external. Both internal and external Wastegates provide a means to bypass exhaust flow from the turbine wheel. Bypassing this energy (e.g. exhaust flow) reduces the power driving the turbine wheel to match the power required for a given boost level. Similar to the BOV, the Wastegate uses boost pressure and spring force to regulate the flow bypassing the turbine.

Internal Wastegate
Internal-Wastegate.gif

InternalWastegates are built into the turbine housing and consist of a “flapper” valve, crank arm, rod end, and pneumatic actuator. It is important to connect this actuator only to boost pressure; i.e. it is not designed to handle vacuum and as such should not be referenced to an intake manifold.

External Wastegate
External-Wastegate.gif

External Wastegates are added to the exhaust plumbing on the exhaust manifold or header. The advantage of an external Wastegates is that the bypassed flow can be reintroduced into the exhaust stream further downstream of the turbine. This tends to improve the turbine’s performance. On racing applications, this Wastegated exhaust flow can be vented directly to atmosphere.
 
Your Correct Phil.
Thanks for the insight & reading & tips.
Bringing us to the 21st century performance level..
Still have an issue of building a driveline after the engine & Poweradder tubo(s).
Chassis too.
Current tech limits around 700-900hp most Vettes.
 
Lets talk about intercoolers. grumpy you mentioned intercooler sizing but i honestly think there are some more important features to the overall intercooler setup.

first of all, i only use and recommend air to air intercoolers because no one i know actually argues the practicality of driving around with a cooler full of ice in your trunk, and having to drain water and add more ice all the damn time. so for a trailer queen drag car thatll never see a trip to the local hangout spot... sure, cant beat the efficiency of ice packed water to air intercoolers especially here in south florida. for all else, if you THINK youre gonna drive the car, air to air is where its at.

all air to air setups are going to be different and they are not necessarily dependent on the horsepower output as much as they are dependent on the chassis that we are working with. some cars have more frontal area and better airflor through the grille and some cars dont.

if you are going to install some sort of diffuser in the front of your vehicle behind the grill to seal off the area infront of the radiator and channel air through the intercooler and radiator (and i recommend you do because the gains are easily quantifiable with some temp readings) then i caution you not to angle those pieces greater than ~20* from parallel to the direction of the air flow. reason being is because most bar and plate air to air intercoolers need a genuinely head on air source to have air actually pass through them, ive found most angles greater than 20* on most applications and the air actually just whips over the front of the intercooler and doesnt do shit for you. (that was an annoying problem to figure out).

regardless of what corky bell thinks, i think that if you are in the ballpark size range for the intercooler, however slightly undersized, you are better off than having no intercooler at all.

I have found that if my throtle body is poperly sized for my combination, and my turbo are too, intercooler piping works like this for me:
whatever outlet on the compressor side of the turbo will be the size for my turbo to intercooler piping.
whatever size my throttle body is will be the size for the piping from the intercooler to the throttle body.
i buy an intercooler with the appropriately sized OUTLET to fit the pipe to the throttle body charge pipe without the use of a reducer
i use a reducer on the input side to mate the intercooler to the pipe coming from the turbo.

i have found that having a smaller inlet pipe and a larger outlet pipe on your intercooler will greatly increase its efficiency over having the same size piping all around.

as for intercooler sizing again i choose a core that has the appropriate sized outlet for my application, then i get outer dimensions that fit within the confines of my cars front end.

for this particular horsepower output i can tell you my good friend is making 1000+hp and 1000+ torque in a factory five cobra kit car that has a 24x12x3" intercooler with twin turbos and a 352" ford motor. so these gigantic intercoolers that people sell and other people buy may or may not be necessary.
 
YOU ARE ARE NEW GO TO TURBO GUY LS Z Phil !
:mrgreen:
 
Another important part of the combination that i see alot of guys cross over and do wrong, is gearing. i use much lower numerically final drive ratios for turbo setups than for n/a or supercharged setups. the reason being is that a lower (numerically) gear ratio puts alot of more load on the motor and thereby spools the turbocharger faster and carries you in the powerband longer. ultimately the less times you have to shift i have found that the turbo stays spooled at full boost longer, the and the car goes faster through the finish line because of it.
 
Camshafts: the main point i feel thats important when choosing a camshaft is knowing your exhaust pressure : intake pressure ratio.

basically you can weld a bung and use the same system grumpy advocates and describes in detail here: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=495&hilit=backpressure

cheaply and easily (remember this will go somewhere on or after the collector, and before the turbo, not on a runner or after the turbo for the purposes of this test)

and you compare the PSI you read in your exhaust to the PSIg on your boost gauge.

once upon a time to get a turbocharger system to read in the ballpark of 1:1 was something only F1 engineers were capable of on heavily funded race motors. nowadays anybody can be a pro with the right flowing turbo setup.

I have used alot of cam configurations as far as split cams, dual pattern cams, overlap, no overlap, and I feel like in an efficiently designed turbo setup where you are flowing lots of air and have a 1.5:1 or less exhaust pressure to intake pressure ratio.... the setup doesnt give a hoot much for traditional schools of thought about wide LSA and minimal overlap. if youre trying to be on a budget and score a hundred dollar cam for your combination... i would put the camshaft that best suits your needs for lift and duration based on your heads/intake combo and factor in your pressure ratio as if you were building an NA car. i dont think it really matters much about to be concerned with exhaust reversion as it relates to valve overlap unless you are pushing the 2:1 pressure range. ive never had any real significant power gains from just using a cam with less overlap and similar lift and duration in any of my turbo projects.

what I am going to do from now on with the small block powered combinations i will run in the future is what i've been doing in the past for datsun motors, call isky, get a custom cam made for my combo, its really not even more money than alot of these off the shelf cams from some of the other companies out there and im confident they know whats going on.
 
What works best then Phil from your experience with single & Twin Tubo setups for for after Turbo(s) exhaust system ? 3", 4" Or 5" ID Exhaust system with mufflers ?
Zero back pressure school of thought ?
Race Turbo cars I see just have a Slash cut short pipe exiting Fendercwells of 4" or 5" only.
The look is Menacing like a Spitfire WW2 Fighter plane or a Radial Engine B52 Bomber warbird.
 
87vette81big said:
What works best then Phil from your experience with single & Twin Tubo setups for for after Turbo(s) exhaust system ? 3", 4" Or 5" ID Exhaust system with mufflers ?
Zero back pressure school of thought ?
Race Turbo cars I see just have a Slash cut short pipe exiting Fendercwells of 4" or 5" only.
The look is Menacing like a Spitfire WW2 Fighter plane or a Radial Engine B52 Bomber warbird.

Downpipes and exhaust:

Tom wyatt had a turbocharger system developed in the seventies for zcars that used a draw thru carb and a large rayjay turbo that had the exhaust facing the front of the car for packaging purposes. that kit required a 180* U-bend to turn the exhaust back out the rear of the car, what Turbo Tom's kit did was blow out the downpipe using a reducer to 4", make the U, then return to 3"



this is probably one of the more extreme packaging examples out there but in my opinion, if you are gonna make any bend 45* or sharper, blow out the exhaust piping and make your bends then come back down to the appropriate pipe diameter for your hp level. zero backpressure is best. dont use fiberglass mufflers, they will look like your car is giving birth to a golden retriever in short order if you are making any hard passes on that combo

Ive run and seen run open downpipe or fender exit or hood exit exhaust plenty on the street and i love the sound... also a bit of weight reduction, so take that up with your local constabulary if you dare...
 

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You Datsun guys know how to spank a normally aspirated sbc , BBC, and Poncho V8.
You have me thinking Phil.

:mrgreen:
 
How about piston selection for Turbo use Phil.
I never have been a fan of ultralight pistons.
Want them ultra strong.
How far should the top ring groove be located down from the top dome surface?
Gas ports work ?
Drilled pin oiling mods?
Diamond custom pistons my personal choice. Set of 10 made.
Like thermal barrier coatings ?
Tool steel wrist pins or 4140 Chrome Moly ?
 
87vette81big said:
You Datsun guys know how to spank a normally aspirated sbc , BBC, and Poncho V8.
You have me thinking Phil.

:mrgreen:


by and large datsun z guys are slow in the drag racing department... that is to say without a motor swap. when something freakishly fast comes around on the old inline 6 (125+mph trap speed) everyone claims its bullshit and it cant be done, because they didnt think of it first. so theres a niche of people who have consistently built fast turbo cars over the years that just dont care to talk to these clowns that think they are experts because they read a couple used books off amazon.com also what my buddies and i run into alot is we didnt start with datsuns, we started with fords and chevys and then discovered z cars... and alot of the science thats commonly acceptable as "perfect" combinations like motors are safe at 11.5:1 AFR and ignition timing shouldnt be above 18 degrees is all bullshit that some guys put out there and made gospel so they can nerf the competition. if i know i can run 24 degrees of timing at 26psi it would benefit me to look like a bad ass if i managed to lie and convince everyone that 18 was the threshold and they arent making as much power as me because i am just magically better at this than they are.

the worst part is there are people making money "tuning" other peoples cars to 11.5:1 and 16 degrees total all over south florida, and they do it to SBF, SBC, L series, honda, 2JZ toyota, and LSX motors... as if the same rules applied to all engines all the time... they are leaving in some cases HUNDREDS of horsepower on the table!
 
Just a mechanic myself here Phil.
Have been around many different racing groups in my time.
I like the odd......
Hell I am Pontiac guy with a C4 roadster Vette.
Nothing wrong with Datsuns. I like them.
 
87vette81big said:
How about piston selection for Turbo use Phil.
I never have been a fan of ultralight pistons.
Want them ultra strong.
How far should the top ring groove be located down from the top dome surface?
Gas ports work ?
Drilled pin oiling mods?
Diamond custom pistons my personal choice. Set of 10 made.
Like thermal barrier coatings ?
Tool steel wrist pins or 4140 Chrome Moly ?

If i wanted to build a turbo motor for high (20+ psi) abuse I would build one with a custom piston to accommodate the longest off the shelf forged rod i could fit in there within my budget. if you call diamond they can make you pistons specific to big cylinder pressures that have special top ring sizes made to protect against blow by but really all that stuff is not necessary to make the power thats winning real races between real street cars. theres guys making 1200-1500 horsepower with an off the shelf forged rotating assembly and off the shelf heads with an off the shelf cam and an off the shelf intake because they cant articulate in english what custom parts makers want to know to build custom parts. thermal coatings and oil squiters and all that shit are just ways to give your ego a little masturbation in my opinion. i dont think any of those things hurt the engine, except oil squirters, that shit causes windage, but so many people are making the power without all those fancy bells and whistles it begs the question: why bother?

pertinent to your earlier comments i personally have no desire to build or drive a 4500 hp car... or a 2250 hp car for that matter. If you drive or ride in a light car (3000 lbs or less) that makes 900-1200 lb ft and ACTUALLY GETS DOWN AND HOOKS ON THE STREET i think you will genuinely reconsider wanting so much power. i know i did. i dont want a race car... i want a really really fast street car that i can still go get a slice of pizza with on the beach at night.
 
Diamonds for dead on blueprint specs.
They are best.
Ross went hell.
Talk later Phil. My parts are here. Finish my workday.

BR
 
87vette81big said:
Just a mechanic myself here Phil.
Have been around many different racing groups in my time.
I like the odd......
Hell I am Pontiac guy with a C4 roadster Vette.
Nothing wrong with Datsuns. I like them.

i hear you, man, i love fast stuff! i havent been able to give full credit where credit is due yet but theres a couple guys with naturally aspirated honda four bangers FRONT WHEEL DRIVE that race from a stop on the streets and cut low 10 second et's NATURALLY ASPIRATED. i just generally cant carry a conversation with the type of person that drives those things but when they arent around to hear me i compliment them.

same with mopars, i think mopars are some of the most beautifully designed muscle cars but i cant afford most of the shit i would actually want to own. and the guys who can afford it are typically quiche eaters that dont know their jet sizing from a hole in the ground...

sitting around all weekend polishing their clear coat with an inverted huggies diaper. i just cant talk to those people! its so bad i wouldnt want to be associated with most of those people.
 
grumpy, as an addendum to he e85 conversation we embarked on earlier in this thread, i made mention of the fact that e85 tuners run between 6-9:1 AFR with e85... i want to clarify that statement because i realize now that it can be misconstrued...

in a boosted application:

WHEN YOU ARE USING A WIDEBAND AFR GAUGE THAT IS MADE FOR E85 you will be rich at about 6.5:1 and lean at 8.5:1 WOT

WHEN YOU ARE USING A WIDEBAND AFR GAUGE THAT IS MADE FOR GASOLINE you will be rich around 11:1 and lean at 12.7:1 WOT

WHEN YOU ARE USING A WIDEBAND THAT IS JUST READING THE LAMBDA TO YOU on e85 a lambda of .710 is on the rich side and .780 on the lean side WOT

this is where alot of internet peoples are getting all in a tizzy about e85 because they dont know what the heck the little numbers on the gauge are trying to tell them!

and that right there is all the keys you need to unlock the universe of tuning a car with e85....
 
as far as timing goes for e85 i generally get alot more aggressive with the timing while in vacuum than most people do but under boost it may be a two or three degree difference over 93 octane all depending on the application.
 
then again the amounts of timing my friends and i use are already considered asinine by most "professional tuners" out there so caveat emptor i guess
 
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