Unforgiven Project
- Thread starter Unforgiven
- Start date
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
Her are the parts I needed from NAPA to boost reference the EFI. Salesman got the cost down from $68 to $45
T-Test
solid fixture here in the forum
I might be wrong, but I think those washers are concave on purpose, and thick.
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
Good Idea Grumpy... I will try that first before I spin it again.
Oh God!!! that would be bad!
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
T ... I did not know that..hope I did not screw up!
The reason I thought of grinding it flat was because in the Weiand Manual, It specifically states not to use the factory washer. I could not locate the washer that they supplied with the blower when it was new (I bought the blower used and without the balancer bolt).
This was taken from the manual:
"Pro-Street 142, 144, & 174: Align the holes and place the V-belt pulley and the blower drive pulley assembly on the damper. Install the supplied crank bolt (7/16”-20 x 5.5” on the small block, 1/2”-20 x 5” on the big block) with the supplied thick washer into the center of the crankshaft. Do not use the thick factory washer on the center bolt. Install the supplied three 3/8” bolts and 3/8” flat washers and tighten them finger tight. Torque the supplied 7/16” center bolt to 60 ft./lbs. Torque the 1/2” bolt to 80 ft./lbs. Torque the three 3/8” bolts to 30 ft./lbs."
I thought it might have something to do with it being cast iron.
JohnHancock
Well-Known Member
Try using a screwdriver in the flywheel if you can find a fulcrum.
T-Test
solid fixture here in the forum
I use a flywheel tool now, but a LARGE screwdriver up against the transmission case worked for me. Slow but works.
Loves302Chevy
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
No, they may be thick, but are too soft and bend in, and you lose the torque. The ARP bolt is expensive, but works. I try to use those black, hardened die washers when I can. They don't bend.
Whatever you do, if you cannot turn it over without a suspected bind, DO NOT try using the starter motor! You have waaaay too much into this to take any chances. Better safe than sorry.
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
Ok.. one of my buddies stopped by and we began to do some investigating on this issue..
We think it is the weight in the balancer rubbing against the timing cover. He used a bright light and crawled under to take a look and told me to completly STOP .... He found aluminum shavings from the timing cover inside the balancer. The weight was wedged up against it...
I made up some shims today to install between the balancer and timing gear.
This really puzzles me as to why the balancer moved in so tight.
As you know ... I had to shave off material from the balancer hub and then shave some off the blower pulley. When I installed everything, I used a balancer install tool and stopped when I felt the balancer had bottomed out. Then I torqued the 7/16-20 bolt to 60 ftlbs. All the pulleys lined up great and I use feeler gauges to check the gap between the cover and the weight in the balancer. I came up with .025
It's tight but I thought it would be OK...
What I am thinking is maybe when I installed the balancer... I did not use enough force to fully seat it ..and it was giving me a false reading.
I do remember that when the motor was on the stand... I was setting the rockers... I did use a 2' breaker bar to spin the motor but found the
rear flange on the crank was hitting a bolt head in the stand and stopped the motor from turning. I remember giving it almost a full turn on the bolt
without the motor turning cause I thought the bolt had lost torque from spinning the opposite way. Then I stopped and seen it was a bolt head interfering.
After I repositioned the motor on the stand to allow the crank to spin freely, I rotated the motor a few times and all seemed well.... all was good.. So I thought.
We measured the pulley faces last night and found that the balancer was pulled in .080
I have made up a few shims to space it out and will have to space out the water pump pulley as well.
This is the first step in trying to solve why the motor is to hard to spin... I hope we found it..
With all the money tied up into this motor.... I want to thank you guys and my buddies for helping me with ideas and stopping me from
moving forward and winging it!!!
We will get this figured out !
We think it is the weight in the balancer rubbing against the timing cover. He used a bright light and crawled under to take a look and told me to completly STOP .... He found aluminum shavings from the timing cover inside the balancer. The weight was wedged up against it...
I made up some shims today to install between the balancer and timing gear.
This really puzzles me as to why the balancer moved in so tight.
As you know ... I had to shave off material from the balancer hub and then shave some off the blower pulley. When I installed everything, I used a balancer install tool and stopped when I felt the balancer had bottomed out. Then I torqued the 7/16-20 bolt to 60 ftlbs. All the pulleys lined up great and I use feeler gauges to check the gap between the cover and the weight in the balancer. I came up with .025
It's tight but I thought it would be OK...
What I am thinking is maybe when I installed the balancer... I did not use enough force to fully seat it ..and it was giving me a false reading.
I do remember that when the motor was on the stand... I was setting the rockers... I did use a 2' breaker bar to spin the motor but found the
rear flange on the crank was hitting a bolt head in the stand and stopped the motor from turning. I remember giving it almost a full turn on the bolt
without the motor turning cause I thought the bolt had lost torque from spinning the opposite way. Then I stopped and seen it was a bolt head interfering.
After I repositioned the motor on the stand to allow the crank to spin freely, I rotated the motor a few times and all seemed well.... all was good.. So I thought.
We measured the pulley faces last night and found that the balancer was pulled in .080
I have made up a few shims to space it out and will have to space out the water pump pulley as well.
This is the first step in trying to solve why the motor is to hard to spin... I hope we found it..
With all the money tied up into this motor.... I want to thank you guys and my buddies for helping me with ideas and stopping me from
moving forward and winging it!!!
We will get this figured out !
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
Mike ...Yes I put a hardened washer over that thick spacer for support.
thats one of the differences between an engine builder , and an engine parts assembler.
an engine builder has the smarts and experience to STOP and QUESTION, the process any time
you get into a situation where theres the slightest doubt
,about the assembly process, and checking clearances
he understands how things index or feel during the assembly process and the experience and knowledge to
stop the second something does not look or feel right.
I get asked occasionally why it takes a couple days or even weeks,
too properly assemble an engine, after all they do it in 20 minutes on T.V. ?
I point out that the builds you see on t.v. are done mostly with pre-fitted parts,
or the segments are shot, scripted and edited to fit the time slot allowed,
and they sure don,t let you see the bloopers screw-ups,
and record the engines self destructing ,
the first time they did the build off air,
when they make horrific and expensive mistakes
they also never mention the 9-to-17 trips to the local machine shop,
and auto parts stores,
too get parts clearanced and machined,
or order parts to replace those that don,t fit,
or match the application. or they just forgot to order.
they also don,t seem to need to measure and clearance much ,
in any 20 minute engine build!
nor do they generally point out all the precision tools required.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bearing-clearances.2726/page-2#post-88656
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-85144
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-with-a-local-machine-shop.14419/#post-74389
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/think-thru-your-goals.10606/#post-73288
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...rect-custom-length-pushrods.14241/#post-72355
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-ring-info-youll-need.509/page-2#post-71538
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-specs-calculator-links-etc.1222/#post-70375
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-68861
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d-what-goes-in-the-dumpster.13135/#post-68515
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-building-a-383-sbc-stroker.428/#post-61899
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-picking-a-shop-to-do-work.5053/#post-28837
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/machine-work-costs.3169/#post-8452
an engine builder has the smarts and experience to STOP and QUESTION, the process any time
you get into a situation where theres the slightest doubt
,about the assembly process, and checking clearances
he understands how things index or feel during the assembly process and the experience and knowledge to
stop the second something does not look or feel right.
I get asked occasionally why it takes a couple days or even weeks,
too properly assemble an engine, after all they do it in 20 minutes on T.V. ?
I point out that the builds you see on t.v. are done mostly with pre-fitted parts,
or the segments are shot, scripted and edited to fit the time slot allowed,
and they sure don,t let you see the bloopers screw-ups,
and record the engines self destructing ,
the first time they did the build off air,
when they make horrific and expensive mistakes
they also never mention the 9-to-17 trips to the local machine shop,
and auto parts stores,
too get parts clearanced and machined,
or order parts to replace those that don,t fit,
or match the application. or they just forgot to order.
they also don,t seem to need to measure and clearance much ,
in any 20 minute engine build!
nor do they generally point out all the precision tools required.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bearing-clearances.2726/page-2#post-88656
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-85144
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-with-a-local-machine-shop.14419/#post-74389
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/think-thru-your-goals.10606/#post-73288
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...rect-custom-length-pushrods.14241/#post-72355
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-ring-info-youll-need.509/page-2#post-71538
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-specs-calculator-links-etc.1222/#post-70375
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-68861
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d-what-goes-in-the-dumpster.13135/#post-68515
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-building-a-383-sbc-stroker.428/#post-61899
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-picking-a-shop-to-do-work.5053/#post-28837
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/machine-work-costs.3169/#post-8452
Last edited:
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
WELL SAID! GRUMPY!!!!
With only 13 days left for the first event for this truck... it puts added pressure to finish this motor.
Lucky for me that even though I am a conscientious person who WILL stop and think.. I am not perfect and do have my fallible
moments and have friends who will drop everything on a dime to make sure things go well.. I'm not to proud to admit that I do make mistakes
and have occasional brain farts!
With only 13 days left for the first event for this truck... it puts added pressure to finish this motor.
Lucky for me that even though I am a conscientious person who WILL stop and think.. I am not perfect and do have my fallible
moments and have friends who will drop everything on a dime to make sure things go well.. I'm not to proud to admit that I do make mistakes
and have occasional brain farts!
You are not human if you don't have these traits. Take a deep breath and go back after the problem!I'm not to proud to admit that I do make mistakes
and have occasional brain farts!
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
Hi Rick!
The hardest part is sitting in this damn office for 10 hours a day thinking about what I need to do in the three hours I have after work!
The hardest part is sitting in this damn office for 10 hours a day thinking about what I need to do in the three hours I have after work!
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
I have 9 years and 3 months to go!!
I had 4 days off for the 4th of july this year... and it felt like an early taste of whats to come!
I had 4 days off for the 4th of july this year... and it felt like an early taste of whats to come!
T-Test
solid fixture here in the forum
WELL SAID! GRUMPY!!!!
. I'm not to proud to admit that I do make mistakes
and have occasional brain farts!
Welcome to the OLD FARTS club.
Have you got the engine to turn yet by taking the belts off or the plugs out?
If it turns after belts removed, look in blower.
If it want turn after removing plugs, and belts, pull the oil pan and check rods to block or oil scraper.
IF YOU DON'T MAKE MISTAKES, YOU'RE A KNOW IT ALL!!!
And you have never tried to do anything!!!
Loves302Chevy
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
I think you have the problem licked.
Oh, BTW, the powers that be will raise the retirement age to 85 by the time your 9 years & 3 mos comes along.
None of us will ever get to retire unless we can make enough money to stay ahead of their taxing ways.
I would like to retire early at 57. We will see how that goes.
Unforgiven
solid fixture here in the forum
We found the issue!!!!
Coty called it over the phone the other night before he came over!
I re-rented the install tool again for the 4th time yesterday and removed the balancer....HOLY BLEEP!!!...The problem was very clear to see.
The weight in the balancer was acting like a lathe bit cutting a piece of steel!!!!!
As you can see in the last pic... at about the 12:00 position, the balancer weight was digging into the timing cover hub hard.
I used a Q-tip soaked in mineral spirits to CARFULLY remove the aluminum shavings so as to not let them fall into the cover.
(the magnets in the pan will NOT pick up aluminum, so there was special care to remove them.) After all cleaning was done, I took my
dial calipers and measured the depth from the pan hub to the gear face and came up with .575-.583
I then measured the distance from the weigh to the end of the hub on the balancer and came up with .560-.563
This automatically told me that there was an interference of .020 not including the .004 of movement from the crank itself!
After I had cleaned everything well.. I installed a .125 shim that I made up, to go between the hub and the gear. This allowed
the balancer to seat up against the timing gear without touching the timing cover.
As I was tightening the center bolt, the motor started to turn at about 30ftlbs easily !!!
Coty actually held the flexplate in place to stop it from spinning so I could get the required 60ftlbs on the bolt.
At that point Coty and I drank a beer and talked about how BAD this could have been had we not fixed it. WE made a few jokes and got back to work with what was needed to fire up the motor.
After the punch list was finished we began to try and figure out the new Super Sniper EFI settings.... We answered all the questions the software was asking for. There was a series of things like slowly pushing the accelarator to the floor to set the TPS and turning on and off the ignition switch to upload the info into the ECU.
We found that I need to download what is called a GLOBAL FILE from Holley so we can reconfigure the software to run E85.
(I will do that today).
Because we we using E85, we set the idle A/F to 12.5 and the wide open to 8.2 just to be safe and see if the motor would fire.
At this time it was 9:53 in the evening.... I told Coty is was late but I think the noise ordinance started at 10:00 P.M
I could tell he was itching to hear this motor!!!! I looked at him with a shit eating grin and asked if he wanted the honors of the first fire.
WELL... He had his BUTT in the driver seat before I finished the question and replied to me HELL YEA I DO!!!!
I told him that we could not break it in tonight cause it was too late but I would like to hear what it sounded like for a minute.
Besides... I was fully aware that the fuel settings we're not correct yet and did not want to go lean with that E85
I staged the 3 fire extinguishers around just in case... Coty hit the start button and That motor fired before it made 1 complete revolution!!!!
IT WAS AS LOUD AND RYTHMIC AS AN OFFSHORE RACE BOAT WITH BBC'S !!!!!!
I was standing about 6' away from the truck and the exhaust notes coming from the collector extentions where pounding onto my chest!!!
( the truck is tall and the pipes are about 4' off the ground pointing straight out the side in front of the door). I looked up at Coty and he
had a smile on his face that you could not buy!!!
We only run the truck for about 1 minute before shutting it down.. I figured if the neighbors weren't upset yet... they would be if I kept going!!
Everything looked good and Coty said it had great oil pressure. We had one fuel fitting that needed to be tightened back at the rear filter.
Valve train was spot on and sounded great! Though that A1000 fuel pump sounds as loud as a small aircraft sitting under the box of the truck.
It echo's off the bottom of the box floor and sounds like it is in a can. I will improve on the mount later.
Overall... we were happy with what we seen for the first minute... tonight I will set up the camera and do the official startup and break in
after I get the new downloaded software from Holley installed. ( I will be starting a new thread on the E85 and the sniper set up )
I am not going anywhere... BUT .... I want to say THANK YOU !!!! to EVERYONE who helped make this motor get to where it is now!!
RICK's efforts in producing those different SIM's really made all the difference I believe.!!! I felt bad cause Rick did about 10 different combo's
before we came up with a final plan!!! Well Rick... it paid off!! Thank you!
Can't wait to get the video made tonight for you guy's!!
Coty called it over the phone the other night before he came over!
I re-rented the install tool again for the 4th time yesterday and removed the balancer....HOLY BLEEP!!!...The problem was very clear to see.
The weight in the balancer was acting like a lathe bit cutting a piece of steel!!!!!
As you can see in the last pic... at about the 12:00 position, the balancer weight was digging into the timing cover hub hard.
I used a Q-tip soaked in mineral spirits to CARFULLY remove the aluminum shavings so as to not let them fall into the cover.
(the magnets in the pan will NOT pick up aluminum, so there was special care to remove them.) After all cleaning was done, I took my
dial calipers and measured the depth from the pan hub to the gear face and came up with .575-.583
I then measured the distance from the weigh to the end of the hub on the balancer and came up with .560-.563
This automatically told me that there was an interference of .020 not including the .004 of movement from the crank itself!
After I had cleaned everything well.. I installed a .125 shim that I made up, to go between the hub and the gear. This allowed
the balancer to seat up against the timing gear without touching the timing cover.
As I was tightening the center bolt, the motor started to turn at about 30ftlbs easily !!!
Coty actually held the flexplate in place to stop it from spinning so I could get the required 60ftlbs on the bolt.
At that point Coty and I drank a beer and talked about how BAD this could have been had we not fixed it. WE made a few jokes and got back to work with what was needed to fire up the motor.
After the punch list was finished we began to try and figure out the new Super Sniper EFI settings.... We answered all the questions the software was asking for. There was a series of things like slowly pushing the accelarator to the floor to set the TPS and turning on and off the ignition switch to upload the info into the ECU.
We found that I need to download what is called a GLOBAL FILE from Holley so we can reconfigure the software to run E85.
(I will do that today).
Because we we using E85, we set the idle A/F to 12.5 and the wide open to 8.2 just to be safe and see if the motor would fire.
At this time it was 9:53 in the evening.... I told Coty is was late but I think the noise ordinance started at 10:00 P.M
I could tell he was itching to hear this motor!!!! I looked at him with a shit eating grin and asked if he wanted the honors of the first fire.
WELL... He had his BUTT in the driver seat before I finished the question and replied to me HELL YEA I DO!!!!
I told him that we could not break it in tonight cause it was too late but I would like to hear what it sounded like for a minute.
Besides... I was fully aware that the fuel settings we're not correct yet and did not want to go lean with that E85
I staged the 3 fire extinguishers around just in case... Coty hit the start button and That motor fired before it made 1 complete revolution!!!!
IT WAS AS LOUD AND RYTHMIC AS AN OFFSHORE RACE BOAT WITH BBC'S !!!!!!
I was standing about 6' away from the truck and the exhaust notes coming from the collector extentions where pounding onto my chest!!!
( the truck is tall and the pipes are about 4' off the ground pointing straight out the side in front of the door). I looked up at Coty and he
had a smile on his face that you could not buy!!!
We only run the truck for about 1 minute before shutting it down.. I figured if the neighbors weren't upset yet... they would be if I kept going!!
Everything looked good and Coty said it had great oil pressure. We had one fuel fitting that needed to be tightened back at the rear filter.
Valve train was spot on and sounded great! Though that A1000 fuel pump sounds as loud as a small aircraft sitting under the box of the truck.
It echo's off the bottom of the box floor and sounds like it is in a can. I will improve on the mount later.
Overall... we were happy with what we seen for the first minute... tonight I will set up the camera and do the official startup and break in
after I get the new downloaded software from Holley installed. ( I will be starting a new thread on the E85 and the sniper set up )
I am not going anywhere... BUT .... I want to say THANK YOU !!!! to EVERYONE who helped make this motor get to where it is now!!
RICK's efforts in producing those different SIM's really made all the difference I believe.!!! I felt bad cause Rick did about 10 different combo's
before we came up with a final plan!!! Well Rick... it paid off!! Thank you!
Can't wait to get the video made tonight for you guy's!!