Unforgiven Project

first congrats on the progress made and solving the clearance issue on the damper/timing cover ,
I noticed you stated you rented the damper tool 4 times?
4 repeated rental charges had to go a long way toward the potential purchase price.........
yeah! I also learned that early on...... renting tools can be the way to go, but if your doing this work more than once...
generally its cheaper too buy most tools OR have someone who owns the tools do the work..
EXAMPLE,
I originally rented an engine crane, back in the mid 1960s,
but it became all too obvious that frequent rental charges would all too rapidly make the cost, to do that repeatedly,
far exceed the purchase price of even a far better quality engine crane than I was renting

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...MI4OuqxqXk4wIVUj0MCh2WswAGEAQYBCABEgJWofD_BwE

https://www.harborfreight.com/52-pc-harmonic-balancer-pullerinstaller-set-63740.html?cid=paid_google|*PLA+-+All+Products+-+Lower+Sales+Items|New+Products+-+(3)+Price+$30-50|63740&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mkwid=sRl8v2aGG|pcrid|318476002959|pkw||pmt||pdv|c|slid||product|63740|&pgrid=63088205026&ptaid=pla-298942796617&pcid=1654049980&intent=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4OuqxqXk4wIVUj0MCh2WswAGEAQYASABEgIZ7fD_BwE

index.php


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/fabricate-shop-crane.8789/#post-67521

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/crank-bolt-striped.3004/#post-7891

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...engine-stand-mods-accesories.3724/#post-26984

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/damper-tool.223/#post-8024

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/damper-honing.4975/#post-13912
 
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Unforgiven said:
Well Rick... it paid off!! Thank you!
Click to expand...
You are very welcome !

I don't know how you are going to make it thru the work day with all the excitement from last
night. I bet your itching to get home!

So what do you think started this problem and do your pulleys still line-up with the 1/8 inch
spacer installed ?
 
T-Test said:
Can't wait to see the first drive video on pavement doing a wheelie!! Tell your neighbors to eat this!!:D:D
Click to expand...

HAHAHA... I would break things for sure on pavement! Those 2 1/2 ton axles are from 1941 and parts are darn near non existent. Coty and I spent
over 20 hours designing and making a spool for the rear axle. It is fully locked! I left the front diff open so it would steer alot easier.

But.... I will take it to our local cruise night next year.!!! Should scare the hell out of alot of those street boys!:D

Grumpy said:
first congrats on the progress made and solving the clearance issue on the damper/timing cover ,
I noticed you stated you rented the damper tool 4 times?
4 repeated rental charges had to go a long way toward the potential purchase price.........
Click to expand...

Thank you Grumpy! It was a scary moment for sure when that motor would not spin! It spins even easier now than it did when it was on the stand.
I believe it took 27lbs to keep it spinning while it was on the stand, it seems to spin alot easier now!

I was going to buy the installer tool at first cause it was only $75
But the people at AUTOZONE said that their rental policy is that I actually buy it and return it for a full refund. So... it actually never really cost me anything to rent it, just time to run to the store.
But it sure would have been nice to have it on my shelf at 9:00 the other night!
 
Indycars said:
You are very welcome !

I don't know how you are going to make it thru the work day with all the excitement from last
night. I bet your itching to get home!

So what do you think started this problem and do your pulleys still line-up with the 1/8 inch
spacer installed ?
Click to expand...

Yea it is going to be a hard day to get through!

The problem started with the new balancer and blower pulley being about 1/2" out of location from the old set-up. Coty and I seem to think it was always like that on the old motor, but we just missed it somehow.
My fix was to take measurements and turn back the faces of the two pulleys to make everything line up. What I think happend was that when I installed the new balancer onto the new crank... I did not have it seated all the way against the gear in the first place. We think maybe the key
was to tight and causing the balancer to feel like it had seated. I do not like to force things.
Well I pulled measurements and turned the faces on the lathe to the measurements it was showing at that position.
In escents I removed too much off the back of the balancer hub.
Then when it went back together on the stand, it stopped in the same location (which was about .080 short) and I did not know it was. When I torqued it down to 60lbs it showed I had .025 clearance between the cover and the balancer. I then installed the rockers and adjusted them to pre load. Eveything was still good and rotated normal.

Now, it was at this point I re-adjusted the motor on the stand cause when I put the blower housing on... it was out of balance as far as rotating the block (not the crank) on the stand.

A couple days later... For some reason, I went back and wanted to re-check the preload on the rockers...This would have been the first time rotating the crank since I re-positioned the block on the stand. As I started to spin the crank I was rotating it backward on the stand the bolt came loose abit.
I turned it back forward to tighten it but it took a full turn or so to actually get tight. This is where I noticed the flange on the crank was hitting a bolt head on the stand itself and causing the motor to not spin.. I re-adjusted the arms on the stand to so the crank flange would clear. I then seen the crank was clear and really only had to spin it about 10 degrees to bring number 6 cylinder to the top to re-check the rest of the rockers.
I never turned the motor again until it was in the truck and had all the belts on and had one bolt in the converter. I neede to spin the motor then so I could have access to the next converter bolt.
It was at this point when I tried to turn the motor over using the center bolt on the balancer...the bolt tightened up a bit more and the motor only moved about 3 degrees.

What I think happend was when back on the stand when the stand bolt stopped the crank from spinning, It held the crank enough to actually
allow the balancer to be pushed on fully while I thought it was just the bolt re-tightening. I had no reason to think that the balancer would have moved cause it torqued to 60lbs before and showed good! Did not give it a second thought, until it would not spin in the truck...
The damage to the cover in the above pics took place with only 1 turn on the crank !
That is the only logical thing that I think could have happened.

Yes I had to add a spacer to the water pump , power steering pump bracket. and alternater to bring it back in alignment.bracket
 
we all partially learn and gain experience, by occasionally screwing up,
its part of the learning process and "paying your dues"
just be thankful this was caught before it became expensive too repair..
and from now on forward youll certainly, even unconsciously remember to check that clearance issue.

threads like this are rather helpful in that they force people to think through and check,
what they are doing, and realize that if, you have doubts about,
how something fits or functions,
you'll want to stop and find out why something seems to be not working,
as you might assume it should, failing to do so can get rather expensive fast.
the key skill here is NONE of us remembers everything or knows everything,
thats why check lists, precision measuring tools, finding a reliable machine shop, and reading links is so helpful

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-72126

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-68876

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/#post-59253

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...y-in-building-a-good-engine.11682/#post-54682

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-potential-dream-bbc-combos.14607/#post-77976
 
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I'm always amazed how a set of events can line-up to produce a much bigger error. I had one
recently where 3 flat washers cost me close to $1000 to fix, so don't feel like you are the
only one in this club !

Sorry to make you re-hash this in public again!
 
Indycars said:
Sorry to make you re-hash this in public again!
Click to expand...

Don't be sorry!
I am not ashamed of anything.. Like Grumpy stated... I hope people reading will learn from my mistakes. It goes with the territory.
I am thankful that it was caught in time because this particular mistake could have cost me my motor had the balancer eaten a hole in the cover
and my oil spilled out! It's actually scary when you really think about what could have happened.
 
Glad to hear the engine fired easily.
The balancer on my 334 SBC has the weight built into the outer ring. Fluidampr. This model is something like 25 years old.



If you should have to do it again, look for a style like this, instead of that big weight bolted inside the back of your balancer.
 
Needless to say... I did get sick. ($11,600 into this motor)
The boys came over and pulled what was left of the oil pan while I was at a family reunion.
I dont know what happened yet.
I am thinking it might have something to do with a bad tune.
Too Much timing maybe... It was set for 35 degrees and pull .3 per lbs.
I think I may have not set the damn computer correctly, and it did not pull timing.

Been talking with Brian about it... He seems to think it was the Scat rods just did not hold up for this build.
I am going to walk away from this truck for awhile and calm down, and re-access what went wrong..

It sucks.... but there are no guarantees in this hobby!

I am scheduled to have a colonoscopy tomorrow to have my wife's boot removed from my ass!
So that will be of some relief.
 
were the rods contacting the block?
obviously the connecting rod failed,
but I don,t see a potential reason for the failure in the posted photos?
Did the rod bolt came loose
or did the rod fail due to a flaw?
Ive used dozens of sets of scat connecting rods and have never yet had a failure.
did the valves or pistons hit the head ?
was there detonation damage to the pistons?
from the posted pictures it looks like a rod bolt snapped?
 
I m not sure of anything right now.. its all speculation... I cant get to the barn till Wednesday .... The boys texted me the pics I posted.
I do not see any burn marks on the journals to indicate bearing failure.
I know for a fact that the 7/16" rod bolts were torqued to the specified ftlbs. according to ARP.
We double checked everything.
Koty thinks the bolts were hitting the windage tray and caused a fracture in one and set off a chain reaction... I cannot buy into that theory.

This is what played out.

I had about an hour of break in time on the motor , I kept the RPM's between 1000 and 3000 for about 30 minutes.
The fuel tune was not correct at that point...it was running rich. That was Friday night.
I spent all weekend talking with Holley about how to use their software.
Yesterday I made a nice fuel curve and what I thought was a decent spark curve.
I loaded it into the ECU and made that video.
I decided to drive the truck to put a load on it so The ECU could learn. (About a mile)
I then decided to do a 600' launch from a 3 mile per hour roll... I took first gear to 6000 and shifted to second..
and shifted into third at 6000... as soon as I hit third I heard a knock and shut it down.
I fired it back up... and it idled fine... so I idled it back to my barn at about 1200 RPM's and 10 seconds later the rods came loose and
locked the motor instantly. Tyler came over and helped me tow it off the road and back to the barn.
It was not leaking any fluids so I did not know the damage until I looked under the motor
and seen that the rods came through both sides of the pan.

I was already late to meet my wife out of town for a family reunion so after I got sick...I showered and left the truck sitting in
front of the barn.
Tyler had said he and Koty would pull the pan and try to assess the damage.
They sent me those pics I posted .
I have not been to the barn since.
Koty said that from what he could see... the block looked OK.
But the rod is so twisted that they could not release it from around the crank... going to have to cut it out.
Thats all I know at this point.

I am going to remove the SD chip from the hand held computer in the truck and down load the info onto a pc to see what happened
with timing and fuel curves and such.
I will need an experienced tuner to look at it.

I will pull the motor and disassemble it and give reports as I go along..
The first step in moving forward is to know what caused the issue so we don't repeat it.

ALSO: keep in mind that this motor was not built for the street.. It was built as a
dedicated race motor.... Pull up to the start line and go.
I failed in doing something... I just have to figure out what it was .
 
Grumpy said:
were the rods contacting the block?
Click to expand...

I cannot honestly give you a positive answer ... I did check for cam and pan rail clearance, and there was alot.
I will make sure to look at the cylinder walls.. altho They may be marked from the carnage now.

But I should be able to check the other 4 that are still good!
 
as you stated, without pulling it down for close inspection its all speculation, at this point
Id be looking for a failed valve train, as a potential contributing factor, simply because its so common.
Id look if the supercharger injected some trash,simply because its so common.
detonation damage could be an issue ,
but Id put the potential fairly low,
until more evidence is available, detonation damage generally is rather obvious ,
but you won,t know until the heads and pistons are inspected,
yes with a super charger your more prone,
but thats speculation until evidence is there to inspect
 
If something was hitting during your video walk around, I think you would have heard that. Something came
loose or broke, just happened when you had the RPM up there.

There is a screw missing from the windage tray, but it's at the very front of the pan and not close to 3 & 4. But
if that screw got into something where there was not enough clearance, then possibly it started the problem. See
if you can find that screw.

IMG_0554.JPG

I can't tell if the bolt shown below is OK or not, but the threads look fine. It sure blew the side the
rod off where the threads are located.

There should be a difference in the failure zone appearance between it hitting another object and
if it failing because of a crack there. Investigate that area of the rod, you might need magnification.

IMG_0551.JPG
.
 
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