valve spring installation questions

4doorscooter

Active Member
I am in the process of installing the required springs recommended for my cam on my vortec heads. My first question is, on a cast iron head do I need to add a hardened steel shim to every spring pocket to protect the head or can I install a spring directly against the spring cup if the installed height is correct? my second question is can i use a snap gauge and a dial caliper to measure installed height as I am on a budget and I would like to save the 50 bucks a spring mic would cost me? Thanks in advance for the help everyone!
 

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
yes you can install the springs directly on the hardened steel, lower spring cup seat,
seats generally have shims placed under them to adjust the installed height of the valve spring and both the keepers and the retainer are available in design's that allow moving the retainer further up away from the cylinder head or higher on the valve or lower and closer, as necessary to get the valve spring geometry and installed height and clearances correct, and of course theres longer and larger valves also available
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OBVIOUSLY YOULL WANT THE CORRECT VALVE SPRINGS
my dad always stated..

"A couple hours , well spent in doing carefully documented &,detailed research,
before.... jumping head first off the dock,
into any project,....can prevent you from wasting month's of non-productive work and a wheel barrow full of cash!!"
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SOME ROLLER ROCKERS CAN AND DO BIND ON ROCKER STUDS, or rocker adjustment nuts, youll need to check carefully
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some roller rocker too retainer combo clearance issues cause problems easily solved with beehive springs and smaller retainer diameters
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BEEHIVE SPRINGS GIVE A GOOD DEAL MORE ROCKER TO RETAINER CLEARANCE
its the attention to details and checking clearance etc. and time and care taken,
that makes the difference between a barely or average functional ,
and a rather exceptional engine build, yes the urge to get it running is strong,
but getting it done correctly is the goal

yodam.jpg



http://www.competitionproducts.com/1500-1585-OD-Valve-Springs/products/2631/1/0

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/valve-springs

https://www.iskycams.com/cart/valve-springs-c-99.html

http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/file/334-343.pdf

https://www.racingsprings.com/Valve-Spring/Store/13

http://www.lunatipower.com/Category.aspx?id=23

http://www.pspring.com/products/engine-valve-springs/

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Valve-Springs/departments/49/

http://psisprings.com/products/

http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Valve Springs By Usage'-0.aspx

http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive-Valve-Springs

https://www.supertechperformance.com/valve-springs-p109

http://www.cvproducts.com/index.php/psi-springs/


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a valve spring mic is nice but certainly not manatory
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REMEMBER TO CAREFULLY CHECK THE PUSH ROD TOO CYLINDER HEAD GUIDE SLOT AND CYLINDER HEAD CASTING CLEARANCES,IF THE PUSH ROD BINDS IT MAY CAUSE A LOSS OF OIL FLOW THROUGH THE PUSH ROD, FROM LIFTER TOO ROCKER OR THE LIFTER TO WEAR RAPIDLY

checking all valve train clearance issues in mandatory
a snap gauge and caliper work fine if your careful
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links may help in fact reading links and sub/links carefully will prevent lots of wasted time and cash
most flat tappet cams use 110 lb-130 lb seat pressure springs ,
you can get by with the 140 lb-150 lb seat pressure springs in almost every application,
with a roller lifter cam, IF ITS A HEAT TREATED SURFACE HARDENED cam
but I would have suggested swapping to a billet cam by the time the seat pressure was much over 150 lbs
as the pressure on the lifter roller wheel increases so does the potential for having issues if you match a roller lifter and a soft cam lobe.
RELATED
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d-high-spring-pressures-don-t-work-well.1489/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-wear-articles-you-need-to-read.282/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/checking-piston-to-valve-clearances.399/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-pushrods-and-check-info-you-might-need.5931/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rocker-push-rod-wear-issues.9815/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-bearing-install-tools-install-info.1479/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/
THE question about buying bare heads and having a local shop you trust add the valve train components and do the machine work , VS buying ready to run, off-the-shelf cylinder heads, comes up frequently.
the manufacturers can buy in volume and purchase valve train components a good deal cheaper than you can, and they can have heads machined in large batch jobs that also reduce machine work costs, but they are also trying to be competitive so they rarely select the top quality components, thus there's always a trade-off and you,ll rarely see top quality machine work, and the better components used in off the shelf heads for sale....that does not indicate the off-the-shelf heads are junk, but the manufacturers must balance quality and price to remain competitive.
Youll almost always find that the larger and better known brand name suppliers like
AFR,

DART,
BRODIX
EDELBROCK,
PROFILER,
TRICKFLOW,
have listed upgrades as options
yes quality varies and your going to be doing research or your not likely to get the best value per dollar or best potential performance.

related threads and sub linked info

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...u-buy-bare-or-assembled-heads.534/#post-57612

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ccing-my-heads.14187/#post-71989

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/porting-can-help.462/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-combustion-chambers.2630/page-2#post-54342

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

ID suggest you select from heads from these sources
Jegs; 800/345-4545; Jegs.com

Summit Racing; 800/230-3030; SummitRacing.com

Scoggin-Dickey Parts Center; 800/456-0211; ScogginDickey.com

TRJ
http://trjperformance.com/cylinder-heads-top-end-kits-components/complete-heads/

TRICKFLOW
http://www.trickflow.com/egnsearch.asp? ... 4294867081
http://www.trickflow.com/customerservice
1-330-630-1555 • 1-888-841-6556

BRODIX
http://www.brodix.com/heads/heads.html
479.394.1075

DART
http://www.dartheads.com/products/cylinder-heads
Dart Machinery; 248/362-1188; DartHeads.com


AIR FLOW RESEARCH
http://www.airflowresearch.com/
toll free: 877-892-8844
tel: 661-257-8124

Patriot Performance
Patriot Performance; 888/462-8276; Patriot-Performance.com

PROMAX
http://www.competitionproducts.com/...c-Bare-Pair/productinfo/PMX9317/#.V2m23PkrLcc

RHS
http://www.racingheadservice.com/rhs/cylinder-headshtml
Toll Free: 877-776-4323
Local: 901-259-1134

EDELBROCK
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new ... main.shtml
Edelbrock; 310/781-2222; Edelbrock.com

BMP (world products)
http://www.theengineshop.com/products/cylinder-heads
Tel: 631-737-0372
Fax: 631-737-0467

BUTLER PERFORMANCE
http://www.butlerperformance.com/products/cylinder_heads/cylinder_head_labor.html
866-762-7527

BLUE PRINT ENGINES
http://www.blueprintengines.com/ind...sb-chevy-aluminum-cylinder-heads-cnc-machined
1800-483-4263

PRO-FILER
https://www.profilerperformance.com/
937‐846‐1333
obviously dealing with a machine shop know to do quality and consistent high quality, 3 angle valve jobs is the first step in this process,
Yes ,Ive generally found you will need to disassemble and check run-out yourself and yeah,
that requires you purchase a few tools to do it accurately.

https://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/kl8545.html
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you can generally verify valve seat seal with simply pouring alcohol into the intake or exhaust ports with what ever port your testing vertical and watching for solvent or alcohol seepage in the combustion chamber ,


alcohol will seep past a marginal valve seat seal contact far faster than water will due to its lack of surface tension, so its a better test fluid. hand lapping the valve seats tends to help.
hand lapping valve seats can be done reasonably easily and greatly increases valve seat seal.







https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2013/10/cautioning-on-valve-seat-concentricity/



http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...olishing-combustion-chambers.2630/#post-50247

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...gree-valve-seats-tpi-motors.14662/#post-78724

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-to-lap-valve-seats.1159/#post-2362

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...at-angles-and-air-flow.8460/page-2#post-32923

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/multi-angle-valve-job-related.3143/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rocker-push-rod-wear-issues.9815/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...t-herbet-valvespring-vs-isky-vs-crower.11346/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-pushrods-and-check-info-you-might-need.5931/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-springs.9613/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-57678

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-springs.9613/#post-50556

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-loads-and-installed-height.10709/#post-46658
 
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4doorscooter

Active Member
ok awesome thanks grumpy! I measured retainer to guide clearance with seals installed and i have over .090 on every valve. I was pretty surprised as I know vortecs usually don't have that much clearance especially for a .480 lift cam so I measured my valves and found that they are .050 longer then stock so a win for me! Having a dial mic is awesome i am glad i bought one. next I will get a snap gauge and start getting my installed height to 1.70 as per spring recommendations.
 

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-telescoping-gauge-set-5649.html

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valve springs must be installed at a specific semi compressed and listed installed height,
to provide the listed load rates and clearances,
the cam you select will generally come with a suggested listed valve spring load rate and installed height,
the distance between the lower edge of the valve spring retainer and the cylinder head is adjustable to achieve the desired valve spring height through the use of valve spring seat cups and shims placed under the valve spring which can be purchased to lock into a stock height, or plus or minus about .050, and valve locks that cam move the retainer (stock or aftermarket) an additional .050 either tighter or longer allowing the valve spring to expand taller, shims can be placed under the valve seat hardened cups that are almost always mandatory on aluminum head but may be optional on iron heads,(O.E.M. cast iron and lower valve spring load rates)

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related info you really need to read
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ring-installation-questions.12833/#post-66460

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-loads-and-installed-height.10709/#post-46658

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ve-spring-iinstalled-height.12791/#post-66038

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-57678

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-springs.9613/#post-50556

17903.jpg

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-dial-caliper-62362.html
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https://goodson.com/collections/cylinder-head-rebuilding-tools
http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/kl8540.html
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900032

SUM-900032_ml.jpg


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-906784/overview/

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/valve-guide-tools-guide-top-cutters.html

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\

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66832/overview/

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placing a couple magnets on the head near the valve spring your working on helps trap the inevitably dropped valve lock
springyu1.jpg

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the reduced diameter of beehive valve springs usually eliminates the rocker too retainer clearance issue

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you need to read the fine print
many magnets like those you linked too loose there magnetic pull if heated to 200F
these below won,t

proper magnets trap metallic debris

SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
http://www.magnet4less.com/
enginemagn.jpg


http://www.magnet4less.com/product_...ucts_id=254&osCsid=ckl4nevgdrmireotnegg7jcf36

http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-magnets-dia-1x3-8-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/

Samarium Cobalt MAGNETS HELP
http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-disk-magnet-dia-1x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/
magnets are ceramic and glass hard, don,t try to drill or grind them, as they can shatter
Model# SMCO-D8
Samarium Cobalt Magnets 3/4 in x 1/4 in Disc
 
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Loves302Chevy

"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Don't forget about coil bind, although you are using the recommended springs for your camshaft, so it should be OK.
But check anyway!
It sounds like you will not need many shims. But if you have to stack them, make sure
a hardened shim is at the at the bottom of the valve spring.
I do what is called tip-conditioning to my valve springs. It takes a long time, but I have
seen first-hand what happens from the sharp cut ends of the spring combined with high RPMs.
You do not have to do this - but I sleep better at night with it done.
engine_e30m3_valvespring_lg.jpg
 
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