velocity or bullet mass and caliber, how much is required

Discussion in 'rifle related' started by grumpyvette, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    leathality, the water bucket analogy

    I heard rifle leathality explained once this way

    think of your big game target for the purpose of explaining your choice in a rifle selection,
    as a large 5 gallon steel bucket for deer, a 10 gallon steel trash can for elk or moose,
    and perhaps a 40 gallon steel drum for large African game like elephant.
    the games life force, and its ability to function after bullet impact can be thought of as the remaining water the containers filled with.
    your object, as a responsible and ethical hunter is to drain the water from the container as rapidly as possible
    now from a purely physics stand point punching a hole in the container will tend to drain some or most of the liquid contents.
    but merely draining part of the contents can be considered a WOUNDING and NOT necessarily 100% dependable shot,
    so your shot placement on the containers surface DOES mater a great deal.
    small caliber high velocity projectiles may cause some rather significant percentage of the fluid volume to splash out instantly ,
    especially on the smaller container sizes, but they also tend to leave a single entrance hole to drain the remaining fluids.
    keep in mind the sizes of the containers in this analogy.
    medium calibers at lower velocities may punch a hole in both the entrance and exit surfaces,
    but may not cause a great deal of water to be splashed out over the top on bullet impact.
    yet the presents of two drain holes if properly located will drain the contents dependably.
    medium calibers at higher velocities may punch a hole in both the entrance and exit surfaces,
    And may cause a great deal of water to be splashed out over the top on bullet impact.
    yet the presents of two drain holes if properly located will still drain the contents dependably,
    thus at least in theory draining the contents slightly faster,
    heavy calibers will generally produce both an effective entrance , impact and exit drain hole,
    but think about the shot placement carefully, in this analogy.
    no matter what caliber is used if the bullet impacts the upper 1/2 of the container its unlikely to be fully drained.
    granted this concept is overly simplified but it may help you understand why larger calibers tend to work.
    Id also point out that years of experience have taught me that even ideal shot placement is rarely instantly effective,
    if your targets still moving keep accurately placing shots, and know your games anatomy


     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
  2. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    Back in the mid 1960s marlin introduced the 444 marlin rifle,
    [​IMG]

    it was at the time one of the first larger bore lever action rifles, available for decades.
    at the time remington was the only manufacturer of ammo, and they loaded the 240 grain soft point that was then used in the 44 mag,
    the 444 marlin and 45/70 and 450 marlin are excellent choices for thick timber hunting,
    where shots over 150 yards are very rare,...


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    but are at their best at under 250 yards, and require careful projectile selection,
    and sighting in at about 3.5" high at 100 yards to maximize the point blank range efficiency
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...eter-240-grain-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-100
    [​IMG]
    that bullet was designed to expand well at 1300 fps, the problem was that the 444 marlin pushed that projectile too 2200 fps,
    this resulted in explosive expansion, which was acceptable on a lung shot on a deer but totally un-acceptable on larger game like elk, moose, or bear.
    this flaw became rather obvious very rapidly and while the 444 marlin gained a very good reputation with deer hunters,
    it was not until HORNADY started producing a 265 grain projectile with a much thicker jacket
    https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/44-cal-430-265-gr-interlock-fp#!/
    that the 444 marlin started to make itself, a much improved reputation on larger game.
    the 265 grain hornady transformed the cartridge performance on larger game. greatly improving penetration.
    theres also 270 grain bullets,

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...70-grain-bonded-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-50
    several other manufacturers sell 300 grain 44 caliber projectiles
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...er-300-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/#post-40534

    the point here is that the projectile used is one major factor,
    along with your knowledge of the games anatomy,
    your ability to shoot accurately, that makes a huge difference in the results youll get
    [​IMG]


    now if your looking for a big bore lever action three popular choices

    the 44 mag generally throws , a 240-300 grain bullet to under 1600 fps
    making it a decent 120 yard rifle choice
    the 444 marlin throws similar bullets at up to 2350 fps
    the 45/70 can throw a 300 gain-430 grain bullet at slightly lower velocity but with a significantly heavier projectile. making both a 250 yard rifle choice.

    I can tell you that powders like
    IMR4198
    , RL7,
    IMR 4064,
    and IMR 3031
    over a 215 fed primer,
    all produce very good accuracy in marlin 444 or 45/70 rifles.


    http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=444 Marlin&Weight=All&type=rifle&Source
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  3. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    I stopped at the local gun-shop to purchase some rifle bore solvent , as I had purchased a quart recently,
    but one of my brain dead grandsons dropped and broke the bottle rummaging through my desk in the garage.
    while I was there I stopped to browse the rack of new rifles they had on display .
    now when I was younger browsing the rifle rack display was a bit like looking at playboy fold outs...
    you knew you would like to play with almost everything you saw, but you also knew you could never afford too!

    well, while I was looking for anything rather new or interesting, mike a neighbor walked in, with his 7mm mag rifle, he was looking to trade it in.
    I asked him why, and he said I just want something new, Ive never been all that impressed with the 7mm mag and just wanted an upgrade.
    I asked him what he had in mind?
    he was not all that certain, but was thinking about a 300 mag..... I wished him well, and hoped he got some value out of his trade-in.
    Mike is one of those guys that never got into hand-loading,
    who buys any ammo on sale, and I doubt even looks a the brand or projectile weight,
    and Ive never once seen him clean a rifle bore!
    I'm not a fan of the 7mm mag either, but its certainly one of the better choices,
    as its basically a bit flatter shooting that a 30/06 with similar 175 gr and 180 gr projectile weights.
    It would be hard to beat a 30/06 or 7mm for most deer and elk hunting, and a 300 mag adds about 75-100 yards of range, but most big game is shot well under 300 yards,
    personally I prefer the 340 wby, or 375 H&H,
    for anything large that might require a 300 yard plus shot,
    but most guys don,t handle the related recoil levels well.
    that level of power is certainly not required,
    but its never failed to put down an elk either
    theres certainly advantages in my experience,too selecting those two caliber choices.

    but you can,t expect to select another mans favorite big game rifle or caliber,
    any more than you might expect to select his best potential match in a favorite wife.

    I doubt his success ratio improves with a new rifle but it certainly won,t hurt a bit!


    http://www.themeateater.com/hunt/general/becoming-a-one-rifle-hunter

    https://www.fieldandstream.com/12-best-rifle-cartridges-for-elk-hunting

    https://www.elk-hunting-tips.net/acceptable-elk-rifle-calibers.html

    https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2010/8/30/enough-gun-elk-cartridges/

    https://www.outdoorlife.com/top-10-cartridges-for-hunting-elk

    https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/three-dozen-elk-cartridges-taught

    https://www.chuckhawks.com/elk_cartridges.htm

    http://www.petersenshunting.com/ammo/americas-top-10-big-game-cartridges/
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrbb [​IMG]
    ......some things just RUN after being hit and don't care by what caliber rifle or bullet!

    yeah, that becomes rather obvious as you gain enough experience, but at the same time theres a very noticeable trend , you'll eventually be forced to see, that,
    theres a gradual, but noticeable improvement in how effective a rifle is at dropping game as the bullet mass and impact energy levels are increased.
    the issue is simply that most guys have only shot a few large game animals, most guys are not as good of shots as they imagine themselves to be,
    and if your experience and conclusions are based on a rather limited sample base, its easy to come to erroneous conclusions, based on that limited info.
    many guys don,t grasp the difference between lethality, and a rifles ability to instantly or at least very rapidly destroy an animals ability to stay on its feet, with a well placed shot
    I doubt theres anything walking in north America.a 30/06 with the proper ammo and shot placement,
    that can,t be killed with one shot, but, at times having minutes between a bullet impact and the complete shut down of an animals ability to express its disapproval of your presents on your body, matters, Id have a lot more confidence
    facing a charging Kodiak bear with a 378 wby and 300 grain soft point bullets
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018 at 9:28 AM

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