vertex ignitions

vertex magnetos are old school tech from the 1940s , it works very well, I like them...
but the newer individual distributor-less coil on plug ignitions are much more modern technology
yeah Ive been amazed/ shocked, at what many people ask for parts and service many times:facepalm:


personally I really like the vertex ignitions :like: but its old technology,
the more modern individual coil on plug ignition with a crank trigger has advantages,

and its a much more modern technology that allows each cylinder to be individually timed


 
I know this an old thread, my apologizes for resurrecting it. I have a 1953 Chevy pickup truck that the previous owner (now deceased) had installed a Vertex magneto, McCulloch supercharger (from a 1959 Studebaker Golden Hawk), and a Hallibrand quick change rear end. I'm in the process of finishing the restoration/refurbishment with a few modern touches (power disk brakes, etc) but want to retain the Vertex magneto.

It looks like it too could use resuscitation and while there is a Don Zig plate on it, my calls to Don Zig have gone unanswered and today the voice mail said that the mail box was full. I thought having them do a clean and rebuild made sense given their name on the plate, but maybe they are out of business and don't do that anyone, thus no return phone call and a full mailbox. Does anyone have any info on Don Zig and/or a reference they can give to an alternative?

Many thanks in advance.

Bob
View attachment 16988
Was it running before you removed it?Personally I think if it was running fine and no one was running it raggid then I would leave it alone.The mag itself actually looks really nice, almost like it had been refreshed in recent years, other than the rust on the steel parts. Without seriously researching 6 cylinder mags with tach drives this one doesn't seem like it was over the counter. Looks like someone put some serious time into making the tach drive and that shop maybe the one who did it. I saw in another forum thread from 2020 that Joe Anderson was running the shop by himself since Don Zig passed in 2014. This particular post was about how hard it was to reach Joe and that the turn around time was forever (7-8 months). You might be able to reach him on the phone and get some finer details about your mag. This particular person in the other forum said they had the best luck reaching Joe between 2-3pm CST.
 
Was it running before you removed it?Personally I think if it was running fine and no one was running it raggid then I would leave it alone.The mag itself actually looks really nice, almost like it had been refreshed in recent years, other than the rust on the steel parts. Without seriously researching 6 cylinder mags with tach drives this one doesn't seem like it was over the counter. Looks like someone put some serious time into making the tach drive and that shop maybe the one who did it. I saw in another forum thread from 2020 that Joe Anderson was running the shop by himself since Don Zig passed in 2014. This particular post was about how hard it was to reach Joe and that the turn around time was forever (7-8 months). You might be able to reach him on the phone and get some finer details about your mag. This particular person in the other forum said they had the best luck reaching Joe between 2-3pm CST.
The truck hasn't run in nearly a decade. I'm doing a fairly thorough inspection and refurbishment of the engine, cooling system, electrical system (new wiring harness and alternator), the magneto is in my sights given it has sat unused for so long. I've decided to send it off for cleaning and inspection. If any new parts are required, I'll decide on what to do at that point in time.

I decided not to wait any further on Don Zig and reached out to Joe Hunt Magnetos and they 1) answered the phone, 2) were very knowledgable and responsive to my questions, and 3) estimated turn around in a week or two.
 
vertex magnetos are old school tech from the 1940s , it works very well, I like them...
but the newer individual distributor-less coil on plug ignitions are much more modern technology
yeah Ive been amazed/ shocked, at what many people ask for parts and service many times:facepalm:


personally I really like the vertex ignitions :like: but its old technology,
the more modern individual coil on plug ignition with a crank trigger has advantages,

and its a much more modern technology that allows each cylinder to be individually timed


Sounds interesting, but given that the 1953 truck has a 1959 inline 6 cylinder 261 cubic inch engine, I think the work necessary to find and adapt a newer system would be more that I can handle right now. The magneto is boxed and ready to ship in the morning (see post above). Thank you
 
Since my post a few posts back, I have had the Vertex magneto rebuilt and cleaned. I've now installed it and a new wiring harness, complete with a kill switch for the mag, (Joe Hunt did the rebuild). I also purchased from them the Magneto Tach Converter, since I'll be running a newer electronic tach. Has anyone used this box from Hunt for this purpose?

I have downloaded the wiring diagram that comes with the converter and I'm still a bit confused. Here is what I think needs to be done.....

Red - connect to a 12 volt switch power source

Black - connect to vehicle ground

Violet - connect to the input of the tach

Brown/Black - connect to one side of the kill switch along with a wire to the vehicle ground

Brown/Orange - connect to one side of the kill switch along with a wire from the terminal on the magneto

Brown/Yellow - No need to use in my situation


Does my interpretation of where the last three wires go correct?

Thank you in advance for any guidance.
 
on my vertex you only needed to connect
Red - connect to a 12 volt switch power source
(that can be optional on some applications)
on many old vertex magnetos you just run a wire from the lug on the magneto to a kill switch, and the other side of the kill switch to engine ground, if the switch is open the mags on, if closed the mags grounded and OFF.
of course you need to run the non-resistor copper core ignition wires to the non-resistor spark plugs in the correct firing order
images
attachment.php

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/tay-540000.pdf
Black - connect to vehicle ground

Violet - connect to the input of the tach

Brown/Black - connect to one side of the kill switch along with a wire to the vehicle ground

Brown/Orange - connect to one side of the kill switch along with a wire from the terminal on the magneto



Step 4-A final road test should be performed to determine if further adjustments to the initial timing are needed. Troubling Shooting Tips: 1) Motor turns over but will not start or run. Check the following in this order: a) Check number one cylinder in firing order to make certain it is getting spark. If getting spark check these items: b) Ignition timing to make certain it is within the factory specifications. c) Engine’s correct firing sequence is properly routed to the distributor cap firing sequence. d) Spark plug wires are properly inserted and connected in the distributor cap. e) Rotor is aligned with the number one cylinder marking on the distributor cap & housing. 2) No spark coming out of distributor to number one cylinder. Check the following in this order: a) Repeat b, c, d, and e from step 1 above. If the above are properly installed check the following: a) Inspect all electrical wire connections to ensure properly routed and connected. b) Using a test light recheck both the black and red wires at the ballast resistor to ensure that there is no voltage present in the”off” or “accessory” positions of the ignition switch. c) With the ignition switch to the “on” position, use the test light and check to ensure that +12 volts is present on the black and red wire connections. d) With the ignition switch turned to the “start” (crank) position, use the test light and recheck to ensure that +12 volts is present on the black and red wire connections. If the above are properly installed then proceed to Step 3 3) Test to perform on the distributor’s “coil and module” to verify they are functioning properly. a) Disconnect the Distributor’s Red Coil Wire from the Ballast Resistor or (+) coil Integral Loom Resistance Wire. With an additional 18 gauge wire, connect one end to the Distributor’s harness red wire(coil) and connect the other end to the positive (+) battery terminal post. b) Turn the ignition switch to the start position, if the distributor is functioning properly, the motor should fire start and run. Caution: Disconnect the wire from the battery after starting to avoid damage to the distributor’s internal coil and electronic module from extended use in this test position. c) If this test fails, please contact our Vertex Tech Department for further assistance.

wiringdiagramforjoehunt.jpg

grumpy said:
like every normal distributor, drop it in and use a TIMING LIGHT AND A TIMING TAPE ON THE DAMPER to set full advance where you intend it to be, at the rpms you intend, while verifying its not going to further advance the ignition timing as rpms increase
 
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on my first vertex I had only a 10 ga wire I ran from that lug, on the side of the mag below the cap,
to a 40 amp insulated kill switch ,contact and I ran a second wire from the other switch contact to a frame/engine ground.

I never had the tach connected for the first few days I used the vertex mag, simply because at the time,
I could not figure out how, (I was about 17 when I first had a vertex mag on a BBC engine)
shopping
 
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on my first vertex I had only a 10 ga wire I ran from that lug, on the side of the mag below the cap,
to a 40 amp insulated kill switch ,contact and I ran a second wire from the other switch contact to a frame/engine ground.

I never had the tach connected for the first few days I used the vertex mag, simply because at the time,
I could not figure out how, (I was about 17 when I first had a vertex mag on a BBC engine)

That is what was basically setup on this truck when I acquired it, although it had not yet run. I've added the electronic tach and the tach converter and I'm unsure of the wiring since I don't have a coil or ballast resistor.
 
Since the converter is the same one that Autometer sells I reached out to them, while I'm waiting to hear back from Joe Hunt's tech guy. They tell me that this converter will not work with the Vertex OAC, but I swear I checked this out before I bought the converter and electronic tach. I also spoke with a guy from a company called Fuel Injected that sells a Hall Effect sensor for the Vertex magneto, but since it sends two pulses per revolution, you need to setup your tach for 1/2 the number of cylinders you have in order to get an accurate reading. The problem is that the electronic tach I have will not allow me to configure it for three cylinders.......
 
On another forums I was directed to a Spud Miller at company called Fuel Injection. He has been incredibly patient with my flurry of emails describing my situation. He's convinced me that with his suppression wires, I can make use of the Joe Hunt/Autometer tach signal converter. However, in the process I convinced myself to make use of the Hall Effect sensor that he sells at Fuel Injection that attaches directly to the Vertex tach itself. He didn't up sell me, I up sold myself. I'm already going to be using a Hall Effect sensor that screws into my GM 4-speed manual transmission where the mechanical speedometer cable used to be. As a result, I'm more comfortable with that approach rather than the black box converter with too many wires to figure out in my application.

The thing that Spud had to get through my thick head was that the magneto hall effect sensor detects three pulse (every other contact in a six cylinder engine) and because the magneto runs at 1/2 of engine speed, the sensor produces 1 1/2 pulses per engine rotation. Since you can't actually detect 1/2 of a pulse, it means that when there are six pulses, the engine has rotated twice. Since I have an electronic tach that doesn't have a setting for a three cylinder engine, I'm getting an estimate from the gauge manufacturer to modify the software in my tach to match this set of sensor pulses (six pulses equals two RPM's). If this sounds confusing, it was for me, but I think I've got it now.

On to the next set of problems/issues/opportunities in my rebuild project.
 
let us know how it eventually works out for you, and if it does so successfully please post part numbers and diagrams
 
let us know how it eventually works out for you, and if it does so successfully please post part numbers and diagrams

I will absolutely do that. I hate it when a question is asked, a solution is offered, but those reading the thread never hear about the successful conclusion. I should know later today about the quote from the gauge company to do the software modification, but based on their comments so far, it sounds reasonable.

In the meantime, here is a picture of my Vertex tach and the mechanical tach cable connector mounted to the crank gear and oil pump fitting. My question is, should I leave this tach cable connection on the mag, or can it be removed and the gear and oil pump fitting replaced or re-mounted on another section to connect to the mag?

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if it fits and functions without problems currently,
Id use it rather than incurring what is sure to be a considerable added expense,
if you swap to a different set of parts , you'll surely need,
to run the vertex and oil pump etc without the current components.
(as you'll surely need a new set of different parts, to get the oil pump functional)
 
if it fits and functions without problems currently,
Id use it rather than incurring what is sure to be a considerable added expense,
if you swap to a different set of parts , you'll surely need,
to run the vertex and oil pump etc without the current components.
(as you'll surely need a new set of different parts, to get the oil pump functional)
Yeah, thanks. After I posted it, I got to thinking that it would also be a good way to test the accuracy of the electronic tach, by re-hooking up the tach cable and old mechanical tach.
 
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