Vintage 302 chevy.

If you have concerns about the crank journals condition and surface finish then,
its surely a good idea to take it to a trusted machine-shop for a detailed inspection and ,
it certainly would not hurt to have it checked for micro cracks,
and have the journals polished and edge radius areas smoothed and uniformed.
that being stated, its also a good ideas to discuss the potential cost to have the work done,
as it may be cheaper for them to find a forged crank in better condition than to re-furbish your existing crank.

related info threads
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/can-i-get-it-polished.9214/#post-43456

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/types-of-crankshaft-steel.204/#post-11687

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...earances-and-journal-surface.9955/#post-38385

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...cking-blocks-heads-for-cracks.3363/#post-8862

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...uring-crank-bearing-journals.5478/#post-16429

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...shaft-journal-surface-finnish.2728/#post-9886

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...king-piston-to-valve-clearances.399/#post-488

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-oil-feed-holes-in-cranks.4419/#post-11637

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-rod-strength-h-vs-i-beam.1168/#post-29973

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bearing-clearances.2726/#post-26599

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/thrust-bearing-wear.619/#post-6746

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-rod-rod-length-too-stroke-info.510/#post-633

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...nk-durring-short-blk-assembly.852/#post-21611

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ting-resistance-to-look-for.11312/#post-51472
 
Grumpy said:
If you have concerns about the crank journals condition and surface finish then,
its surely a good idea to take it to a trusted machine-shop for a detailed inspection and ,
it certainly would not hurt to have it checked for micro cracks,
and have the journals polished and edge radius areas smoothed and uniformed.
that being stated, its also a good ideas to discuss the potential cost to have the work done,
as it may be cheaper for them to find a forged crank in better condition than to re-furbish your existing crank.

related info threads
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/can-i-get-it-polished.9214/#post-43456

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/types-of-crankshaft-steel.204/#post-11687

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...earances-and-journal-surface.9955/#post-38385

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...cking-blocks-heads-for-cracks.3363/#post-8862

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...uring-crank-bearing-journals.5478/#post-16429

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...shaft-journal-surface-finnish.2728/#post-9886

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...king-piston-to-valve-clearances.399/#post-488

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-oil-feed-holes-in-cranks.4419/#post-11637

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-rod-strength-h-vs-i-beam.1168/#post-29973

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bearing-clearances.2726/#post-26599

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/thrust-bearing-wear.619/#post-6746

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-rod-rod-length-too-stroke-info.510/#post-633

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...nk-durring-short-blk-assembly.852/#post-21611

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ting-resistance-to-look-for.11312/#post-51472
Click to expand...


Here's a few shots of the scratches/grooves. The 1st and 3rd pic are of the main which has the groove pretty much 360 and the 2nd pic is on the 2nd rod throw which is a short but can still be felt with a nail.

My plan is to drop it off to the machine shop tomorrow and they'll take it to a crank shop in Vegas. $125 to take it down another .010 for a total of .020 undersize on this crank.
20171025_172553_001-3559x2002.jpg 20171025_172606-3559x2002.jpg 20171025_172531_001-3559x2002.jpg
 
Last edited:
Looking back at the first page of this post, I think you might discover that this journal has been welded and reground in the past.
 

Attachments

  • 302 journal.jpg
    302 journal.jpg
    509.1 KB · Views: 5
  • 302 journal 2.jpg
    302 journal 2.jpg
    561 KB · Views: 7
Loves302Chevy said:
Looking back at the first page of this post, I think you might discover that this journal has been welded and reground in the past.
Click to expand...

If your talking about the dark spots its because the engine sat with water in it and the moisture caused the dicoloration you see on the journals and then it also had the same thing on the lowest points of the cam shaft.
 
yeah! if you get a quote of even near $300 to re-condition, and re-balance, the older crank,
especially if it will require under size journals,or welding.
this has never been a cheap hobby,
but, while I know Id be reluctant to spend more money than required,
( and yeah, most of us are always looking at the cost and wondering how to reduce that )
at times youll want to mentally step back and think about the cost vs value ,
and what will provide the best long term, durability, if something comes loose at 7000 rpm, it gets damn expensive.
(and using a high quality crank and connecting rods in that rotating assembly helps immensely)
yes most engine rebuilds, usually seem to be a bottomless pit you throw money into...
but both you and I would sleep better if we used a new forged crank,in any engine we intend to spin up over 7000 rpm occasionally,
rather than a re-welded crank with who knows how much history of wear and abuse.
Id think swapping out too a new 4340 forged crank makes a great deal of economic sense,
simply because you have zero idea as too the, long stress history on the old crank.
stress is cumulative, if that current, original crank has been through a long history,
it might have nearly un-detectable flaws.
yes unexpectedly having to pay for re-furbishing or replacing a cranks,
a financial kick in the nuts,
but if you can prevent something coming apart at high rpm's its cheap insurance.
 
Last edited:
I agree with you both but do they have any off the shelf small journal 4340 cranks available? It's $125 to turn this one down. .020 under makes getting rod bearings a little difficult because they have to be doweled but I don't have very many options to begin with when it comes to anything on this engine. My original plan was to use tri-metal bearings but the new plan is to use a tri-metal main and a bi metal rod bearing mainly because I couldn't find a tri metal for the rods that were .020 under for a racing application. For as much as I'll get to use the car the bi metal will probably work just fine. I'll be all over the oil filter(s) to be sure nothing fishy is going on. I plan to run remote filter(s) by the way, either dual 1 quart wix filters or one single, preferably non bypass (magnetic oil pan heater will be used).

Loves302Chevy said:
Oh, ok. I just don't want you to have any unexpected surprises.
If this crank does not check out, Eagle has one and it is 4340 forged steel.
I believe the original GM forged 302 cranks are 1053 steel.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-435030005700/overview/make/chevrolet
Click to expand...

Grumpy said:
yeah! if you get a quote of even near $300 to re-condition, and re-balance, the older crank,
especially if it will require under size journals,or welding.
this has never been a cheap hobby,
but, while I know Id be reluctant to spend more money than required,
( and yeah, most of us are always looking at the cost and wondering how to reduce that )
at times youll want to mentally step back and think about the cost vs value ,
and what will provide the best long term, durability, if something comes loose at 7000 rpm, it gets damn expensive.
(and using a high quality crank and connecting rods in that rotating assembly helps immensely)
yes most engine rebuilds, usually seem to be a bottomless pit you throw money into...
but both you and I would sleep better if we used a new forged crank,in any engine we intend to spin up over 7000 rpm occasionally,
rather than a re-welded crank with who knows how much history of wear and abuse.
Id think swapping out too a new 4340 forged crank makes a great deal of economic sense,
simply because you have zero idea as too the, long stress history on the old crank.
stress is cumulative, if that current, original crank has been through a long history,
it might have nearly un-detectable flaws.
yes unexpectedly having to pay for re-furbishing or replacing a cranks,
a financial kick in the nuts,
but if you can prevent something coming apart at high rpm's its cheap insurance.
Click to expand...
 
Picked the crank up today. Its looking pretty good now. Still have to put a mic on it but theres no more scratches or discoloration.
20171106_174806-3559x2002.jpg
 
 
Last edited:
Grumpy, can I get your opinion on this Weiand 7 Qt pan? I've been looking through the oil threads on the site and contemplated modifying my original pan but I don't think the time and money spent modifying my own would beat a kit like this and there's to much room for error for such a miniscule cost. In the video they give a view of the trap door to prevent the oil from moving fwd out of the sump during braking but should I worry about anything down in the sump itself assuming theres nothing done down there? Main purpose is for drag racing and very limited street use if its manageable, no fast cornering (spool).
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wnd-5001wnd/overview/make/chevrolet

For an oil pump it had a Melling 99HVS and summit describes it as a pump for the 67-68 chevy 302 but high volume high pressure. I feel I should run the same pump for the remote filter I'll be using and the fact that it will be a higher rpm engine. 10psi for every 1000rpm is the saying right? Any better pumps? Plan to run a pan heater so that should help keep the engine oil warm so startup pressure shouldn't be to extreme other than the oil in the external lines.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-m99hvs

Reading through your oil threads I saw the oil/water heat exchanger and am interested in pursuing that route for oil cooling.

Is it unheard of to run more than one oil pressure and oil temp gauge or should I worry about spending that money somewhere else?
 
I like the way you have a concern and ask questions about just about every aspect of the engine build,
how can you go wrong, probably not!!!

You most likely don't need a HV oil pump. Sorry you have to keep changing your components, but better
now than later !!!

Read this thread ....
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/high-oil-pressure.8735/#post-30886

I used the same oil pump 10552 Melling with several modifications to to oil system that would reduce the
restriction to oil flow. Another words I had several more points of for the oil to leak past the bearings/oiling
points. I still have great oil pressure at idle and up to 4000 - 5000 rpm where I reach max oil pressure of 50-60
psi. You don't want 70 psi at 7000 rpm and 80 psi, a max oil pressure of 60 psi is about right.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...gine-project-dart-shp.3814/page-19#post-19122
 
theres lots of potential choices available,, and of course theres a cost vs value compromise,
but looking at that weiand oil pan I noticed that $220 oil pan design, has no windage tray,no over sump plate to reduce windage,
no crank scraper baffle and the single oil control trap door design does not impress me that much
WATCH THAT VIDEO CLOSELY

obviously you,ll want to ask specific questions as to the ,
ground clearance, starters that can be used,
oil filters, oil dip stick, location,
oil pan gasket matching both pan and lock used.
rear oil seal type,and frame and suspension clearance issues,
related to your car, before you purchase any oil pan

I think the hamburger oil pan is a better value At $242
notice the better oil control features
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ham-1088/overview/
ham-1088.jpg




http://www.milodon.com/oil-pans/street-oil-pans-sbchevy.asp

http://www.jegs.com/p/Moroso/Moroso-Street-Strip-Oil-Pans/763991/10002/-1

https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/hamburgers-performance/part-type/oil-pans

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=1301

http://www.stefsperformance.net/ste...oil-pans/aluminum-oil-pans-pumps#!prettyPhoto
 
Last edited:
Indycars said:
I like the way you have a concern and ask questions about just about every aspect of the engine build,
how can you go wrong, probably not!!!

You most likely don't need a HV oil pump. Sorry you have to keep changing your components, but better
now than later !!!

Read this thread ....
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/high-oil-pressure.8735/#post-30886

I used the same oil pump 10552 Melling with several modifications to to oil system that would reduce the
restriction to oil flow. Another words I had several more points of for the oil to leak past the bearings/oiling
points. I still have great oil pressure at idle and up to 4000 - 5000 rpm where I reach max oil pressure of 50-60
psi. You don't want 70 psi at 7000 rpm and 80 psi, a max oil pressure of 60 psi is about right.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...gine-project-dart-shp.3814/page-19#post-19122
Click to expand...

The last thing I'll ever do is assume something is right or good enough. If I'm not comfortable with the decision I need to make I'll always research and ask questions before I move forward, this site happens to have most of the answers I'm looking for and I appreciate that.

As for changing the parts that's not that big of a deal for me, it's just making sure that they'll work properly for the intended purpose. I've always heard to stay away from the high pressure pumps unless your running loose clearances, something I've yet to verify (waiting on parts) but I plan to run a fairly normal clearance. With the addition of a remote filter, cooler, and the added 8-10ft of decent size lines -10/-12 I figure it wouldn't hurt to have some extra push from the pump. I haven't really researched the effect of increased line size or distance on oil but generally thinking the pressure will decrease with the increased line size and the distance if the amount coming from the pump stays the same.
 
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/#post-7231

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bearings-and-oil-flow.150/#post-68206

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ed-holes-in-bearings-shells.10750/#post-64733

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...es-engine-builders-magazine.11965/#post-57052

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...te-filter-require-a-new-pump.3144/#post-16458

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...l-cooler-increases-durability.176/#post-12473

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...essure-bye-pass-circuit-works.3536/#post-9379

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-basics.615/#post-1731

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/engine-oil-temps.296/#post-361

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-oil-pan-for-450-500-hp-on-the-street.13879/
 
Grumpy said:
theres lots of potential choices available,, and of course theres a cost vs value compromise,
but looking at that weiand oil pan I noticed that $220 oil pan design, has no windage tray,no over sump plate to reduce windage,
no crank scraper baffle and the single oil control trap door design does not impress me that much
WATCH THAT VIDEO CLOSELY

obviously you,ll want to ask specific questions as to the ,
ground clearance, starters that can be used,
oil filters, oil dip stick, location,
oil pan gasket matching both pan and lock used.
rear oil seal type,and frame and suspension clearance issues,
related to your car, before you purchase any oil pan

I think the hamburger oil pan is a better value At $242
notice the better oil control features
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ham-1088/overview/
ham-1088.jpg




http://www.milodon.com/oil-pans/street-oil-pans-sbchevy.asp

http://www.jegs.com/p/Moroso/Moroso-Street-Strip-Oil-Pans/763991/10002/-1

https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/hamburgers-performance/part-type/oil-pans

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=1301

http://www.stefsperformance.net/ste...oil-pans/aluminum-oil-pans-pumps#!prettyPhoto
Click to expand...


Grumpy the canton pans are drawing my attention.

The 13-104 https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=13-104

And the 13-120 https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=13-120

The 104 pan cost more but would that added cost be worth it or should I settle for the lesser. I bought studs that had enough thread left to add a windage tray but which would be better a pan mounted or a block mounted tray.

I looked through your oil threads and saw some interesting things I like the video about drilling the main galleys and the center 3 main and rod galleys. My only question to that guy would be what do you do about the channel that runs around the cam bearing? The holes would be bigger but the channel would be the same. Other than that it looked very tempting but I don't think I want to start drilling the holes in the block bigger at this point.

The second thing I saw was looking at was the 10552C melling pump. That looked like it would be better than the M99HVS that was originally on the engine. It only has a 10% overage and claims to be a standard pressure. Do you think with all the external plumbing that a higher volume or pressure would be required?

I don't intend to run a bypass so it will be a 100% filtration system.
 
The 13-104 https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=13-104 a damn good value but be sure too ask questions to see if it fits your application

And the 13-120 https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=13-120

The 104 pan cost more but would that added cost be worth it or should I settle for the lesser. I bought studs that had enough thread left to add a windage tray but which would be better a pan mounted or a block mounted tray.

I looked through your oil threads and saw some interesting things I like the video about drilling the main galleys and the center 3 main and rod galleys. My only question to that guy would be what do you do about the channel that runs around the cam bearing? The holes would be bigger but the channel would be the same. Other than that it looked very tempting but I don't think I want to start drilling the holes in the block bigger at this point. theres hundreds or thousands of high performance engines built without opening the oil passages...opening them up in theory adds durability but unless your just starting with a bare block you might want too skip that untill the next build

The second thing I saw was looking at was the 10552C melling pump. (BETTER PUMP IN MY OPINION) That looked like it would be better than the M99HVS that was originally on the engine. It only has a 10% overage and claims to be a standard pressure. Do you think with all the external plumbing that a higher volume or pressure would be required? (IT MAY HELP)

I don't intend to run a bypass so it will be a 100% filtration system.
Click to expand...
 

Thanks grumpy. When it comes time to get the pan I'll get with canton on the specifics. I plan on an aftermarket starter. Exhaust will be custom built by a local shop so clearance shouldnt be an issue. The horizontal oil filter adapter will leave a bit of room for that side. I'll have to ask about the clearance on my lakewood bell housing to the back of the pan. It says it will clear 153 and 168 tooth wheels but I don't know about the sandwich plate for the housing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top