Volume Change of Comb Chamber from Radiusing & Polishing

Indycars

Administrator
Staff member
It might come down to just a couple of CCs for the right Compression Ratio. What I'm wondering is how difference in volume should I expect from smoothing all the edges and polishing the pistons and chambers in the head??? The pistons are Mahle flat top with two valve reliefs and the heads most likely will be Brodix IK200 w/70cc chambers.

I'm guessing about 1cc at the most. If I needed another cc to obtain the right CR, then would slightly grinding around the edge of the intake where its closest to the chamber wall be the best place to take metal from???
 
if your really worried about exactly getting the correct compression ratio your calculations suggest ,un-shrouding the valves by laying back the combustion chamber walls a bit produces some benefits.
increasing the combustion chamber voluum by 1-2cc is not difficult by polishing the combustion chamber surface and un-shrouding the valves.
as long as the cylinder compression ratio is very similar , and reasonable for the octane of fuel used,cylinder heads like those brodix heads will not require much reworking.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2630&p=6788&hilit=+shrouding#p6788

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3143&p=8387&hilit=+polish+chamber#p8387

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=10951&p=48157&hilit=polish+chamber#p48157

BTW HERES SOME REWORKED BIG BLOCK HEAD COMBUSTION CHAMBERS, TO UN-SHROUD THE VALVES, SMOOTH THE COMBUSTION CHAMBERS

bbccom1.JPG

STOCK
bbccom2.JPG

SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED FLOW

normal combustion chamber conditions result in both valves looking reasonably clean and dry with the exhaust normally lighter and about a dark card board color, the intake normally looks light grey or brown and darker, the fuel additives and operating temps effect color

JON%20KAASE%202003.jpg


afr%20r1.jpg
 
grumpyvette said:
if your really worried about exactly getting the correct compression ratio your calculations suggest ,un-shrouding the valves by laying back the combustion chamber walls a bit produces some benefits.
increasing the combustion chamber voluum by 1-2cc is not difficult by polishing the combustion chamber surface and un-shrouding the valves.
as long as the cylinder compression ratio is very similar , and reasonable for the octane of fuel used,cylinder heads like those brodix heads will not require much reworking.
With the components I'm presently most likely to purchase the SCR/DCR is 10.80/8.34 without measuring to confirm exact numbers. If I increase the chamber size from 70cc to 72cc, the numbers drop to 10.57/8.17. The highest octane I can readily get is 91. I'm just checking to see what my options are if it comes down to a couple of CCs.
 
if its on the street performance your worried about and getting into potential detonation problems don,t forget you can usually retard the cam timing about 4 degrees and reduce the effective dynamic compression and backing off on the ignition advance an also lower cylinder pressures and temperatures, polishing the combustion chamber surfaces and rounding off sharp edges ,tends to reduce the engines tendency to get into detonation and can improve combustion.
theres also octane boosters you can add to the fuel.
but at the listed compression levels you listed I doubt it will be much of an issue on high test, if you run the engine at a reasonably rich 12.7-13:1 f/a ratio where youll make the best power..

DO A COMPRESSION TEST AND GET YOUR ENGINES CRANKING PSI.
In DAVID VISARDS book How to Port and Flow Test Cylinder Heads,
he says that he tries for a combustion chamber and piston dome combo that will allow 200 cranking psi
and a quench in the .038-.042 range when he runs on 93 octane.
but for every octane number step lower, he suggests the cranking psi should be lowered by about 5 psi.
IE on 91 octane fuel being 2 points lower you reduce cranking pressure from 200 psi to 190 psi,
89 octane being two points lower yet you reduce cranking psi 10 psi lower yet, etc.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2718&p=7057&hilit=+octane+calculate#p7057

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3443&p=9118&hilit=+octane+calculate#p9118

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4081&p=11104&hilit=quench+squish#p11104

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=726&p=9291&hilit=quench+squish#p9291
 
When I read thru the links, I would NOThave guessed that I would be Ok with a DCR of 8.17 to 8.34. For example, the graph below I would read the DCR at 91 octane to be 7.4 to 8.0 (170-180 F). Of course the graph is only accurate with the engine that was tested and we don't have those details. Much of the other info seems to suggest the same approximate DCR.



Any ideas why my situation is different???
 

Attachments

  • OctaneVsDCR01.jpg
    OctaneVsDCR01.jpg
    64.6 KB · Views: 344
from what Ive seen working on and tuning engines ,those charts are depicting about the ideal maximum compression ratio to run,in your basically stock engine, giving you a bit of a hedge for detonation resistance, and they pretty much assume a 14.7:1 f/a mix ratio to minimize emissions.
detonation can destroy an engine but its frequently caused by more than just a bit of compression ratio increase in relation to the octane of the fuel alone, get the heat transfer rates out of the combustion chamber and ignition curves and fuel/air ratios correct and you can run a bit higher ratio that the charts depict.
A great deal of how well your engine runs will be determined by its state of tuning,if you run a non-emission friendly 12.5-13.1:1 fuel/air ratio where you maximize the engines power curve and play with the ignition timing advance curve to get the best torque ,you can frequently boost the effective compression ratio by about .2-.3 and not only get away with it but make noticeably better power.
now IM not saying you can ignore the graph, but in the real world its not like if the graph says that if your engines compression ratio is at 9:1 your, engine combo instantly self destructs the point you put 89 octane in the tank,or at 9.1:1 compression, if you mis-calculated,or that if the pump says your getting 91 octane, your not occasionally getting 89,90, or 92 octane.
get the quench down in the .040-.042 range , polish the combustion chambers and keep the coolant temps below about 190F and run a good oil control system with an oil cooler and you would be AMAZED at how far you can push the limits.....push NOT IGNORE!

you can add a bit of chamber volume and reduce the potential hot spots that help cause detonation by opening and blending and smoothing the combustion chamber
00936.JPG

00935.JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:
grumpyvette said:
get the quench down in the .040-.042 range , polish the combustion chambers and keep the coolant temps below about 190F and run a good oil control system with an oil cooler and you would be AMAZED at how far you can push the limits.....push NOT IGNORE!
By "Oil Control System", I take it you are talking about the oil pan, windage screen and crank scraper???

More than having the right numbers, I like to understand why they are the right numbers. I feel I have a handle on that now.

Thanks for that explanation!!!
 
Back
Top