was there a need to shoot?

Discussion in 'martial arts related skills' started by Grumpy, Jun 23, 2018.

  1. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    I was not there and obviously you or I don,t know all the related facts,
    but whats your opinion?

    I watched this video, and my personal first reaction, was why with three cops and what appears to be a jacked up partly insane assailant was it necessary to shoot this guy?

    https://nypost.com/video/gunshot-to-the-stomach-doesnt-faze-suspect/

    yeah, that was my first thought.....I have zero problem with defending yourself but the guy did not appear to be armed, and if he was not, there was no reason in my opinion, a nightstick could not have, with the proper training and skills on the cops part, been used, to drop the assailant

    [​IMG]


    this guy, in the related linked video, not even extremely skilled from at least whats shown in the video but he should certainly have controlled the situation


    I was never in Law enforcement, but I was asked and was invited a few times too demonstrate open hand and impact and other weapon martial arts skills and defensive tool use , un skilled beating on someone is counter productive in most cases, but with proper use a baton can be a damn effective tool to restrain any opponent, yes it takes training and a willingness to learn the skills and if the suspect antagonist has a weapon like a knife you would be stupid to confront his skills as he might get lucky and kill you so yeah in that case a pistol is the better option.
    I've been involved in martial arts training for over 50 years,
    the fact remains, that no weapon in less than trained hands can possibly live up to its full potential.
    no handgun cartridge can be depended on to instantly incapacitate an aggressor, and this guy shrugged off a shot to the stomach rather rapidly making me think he was on serious drugs, but a determined aggressor can rarely be dropped with a single handgun cartridge hit to non-vital central nervous system or structural bone mass (hip joints, spine,neck, heart, head, etc.)
    I can see where a copy that shot this guy was not trained in martial skills would tend to see a potential threat and react ,with a pistol, but I don,t think is the only or best option.


    a skilled experienced practitioner, familiar with the required skills and even a basic pr24 baton,can make the vast majority of people look foolishly incompetent.

    I'm certainly not nearly as skilled or experienced as some people, but in several martial arts demonstrations , I've found guys that were larger faster and much stronger than I was at the time still had a great deal of difficulty or found it nearly impossible too avoiding being forced into submission.
    I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the only or even the correct answer, only that there are options and you would be amazed at how rapidly a skilled martial arts practitioner can take down someone larger stronger and faster if hes got some experience and practiced skills, especially with a few basic weapons like a pr24
    I trained mostly for open hand and edged weapon use, but I think forcing this guy into submission given the fact there was three cops , was an option,and I doubt I would have had any problem if I had been similarly confronted if I had instant access to a pr24 baton.
    I would think the option of spraining ,dislocating, or breaking a aggressors arm or knee vs potentially killing the guy with a center mass shot.
    I was always taught that if you use edged weapons or a hand gun the object is to quickly and efficiently KILL the aggressor not disable them.
    of course with todays tendency for even the drug soaked criminals , suing the cops, even when they are caught, it may be better to kill the guys outright
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  2. T-Test

    T-Test Well-Known Member

    Did the cop have his baton upon his body? Cop already had weapon/gun in hand.

    Hit the assailant in the head and you could be charged with a crime anyway. Excessive force?
    I believe excessive force shouldn't be a aggravating factor when arresting a suspect or criminal.

    Especially after a 911 call was made.

    In Law Enforcement training, the Instructors tell that they want you to come home safe.

    He missed center mass as that is what he was taught in training as he was being rushed by an aggressor that a call was made to 911 for assault, and not knowing the circumstances as to whether he was on PCP or other drugs, he would never have gotten up after I emptied my magazine into him. I would rather a criminal die than me or an officer. Situations happen rather quickly and your reaction time and with what you have on hand and how comfortable you are with it may save your life.

    All Law Enforcement officers aren't bad, but have to deal with bad situations that could cost them their job or land them in prison, and if cops don't take care of themselves, then they will just show up after the incident is over and say they were held up by traffic or whatever and not place themselves in jeopardy of losing their job or going to prison. It's coming down to that now with some of our PDs. JMTCW
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  3. T-Test

    T-Test Well-Known Member

    No response or am I just crazy? Glad I'm not a cop.
     
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    not being there at the time, and obviously not knowing the options and skills the officer had makes a logical discussion based on facts rather difficult here.
    all the info I had was based on observing the brief video, and my impression based on what your see, personally I I was an officer Id carry a pr24 if given the option,
    why? well I've got some familiarity with using one in practice, I'm certainly more skilled with other weapons, but If I had the situation depicted going down,
    I think personally I could , and would have gone that route, If I'm going to shoot someone I'm effectively trying to use potentially what is designed too be, lethal force to end the threat.
    theres another issue here, and thats being sued for excessive use of force, and I don,t know what would be more likely to get you in trouble if things went badly,
    in either case theres the potential for permanent crippling damage, or repelling the attack causing the persons death, yes the cop in the video, was under far lower personal risk shooting the guy,
    vs engaging in a physical fight no mater how brief, but he is at least in my opinion not there to kill if hes at risk, provided of course theres a reasonable option, and in this particular case it appears in my opinion there was..
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  5. T-Test

    T-Test Well-Known Member

    If a PR24 is a tazer, it might have been a choice if the officer doing the shooting had one. All cops don't have one on them. Even not knowing all the pertinent info about the incident, I say he did the logical thing to protect himself, just as he had been trained..

    In the video the cop already has his hand gun out when he was rushed by the perpetrator. Take the man out of the equation and put a Grizzly Bear in his place. What would yo do knowing that it is illegal to kill a grizzly. Judged by 12 or carried by 6? I'll take the 12 any day.

    Race,color creed or anything else doesn't play a part when it comes to legal laws made by us to protect us because nobody goes by Gods laws. No compliance --you get what you get.
     

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