whats a good LIGHT WEIGHT ELK RIFLE

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
now obviously, if we bring this subject up were going to get a couple dozen good answers, and dozens of highly suspect suggestions,and we need to discuss both what calibers work and what YOU may consider as LIGHT WEIGHT may not be in my opinion.
but Id sure try to keep the rifle and scope under 7.5 lbs for an extended back-pack hunt. (yes if you shop carefully under 6.5 lbs for the rifle,scope,rings , is potentially a goal you can reach)
as to caliber, Id be willing to go as small as a 257 roberts or a 7mm-08, and feel that I could get the job done, but in a light rifle I like the 270 win, there will always be a compromise or balance struck between the weight and length and ease of transport, of any rifle, everyone likes the lightest weight and shortest length rifle available when carrying it as those extra ounces quickly seem to be pounds after hours of climbing steep slopes in the rocky mountains, and as the preconceived level of power required to get the job done effectively increases , for most people, theres a good deal of both recoil sensitivity and aversion to muzzle blast that prevents the larger calibers from being more popular.
but Id be far happier with a 30/06- to-35 whelen chambered in my rifle when hunting ELK. and while I don,t see any dis-advantage in use of the .338-thru-.416 or even the .458 calibers like the 450 marlin caliber rifles , they don,t seem to be as popular due to the pronounced recoil in a light weight rifle and truthfully the extra powers seldom of much benefit, if the shots are placed well,now thats not to say I don,t see animals drop a bit faster with my 340 wby, or 375 H&H, but a good well placed hit from a 270 win or 358 win is just as lethal it just may take a few seconds longer for an elk to admit it!
several of the guys I hunt elk with think the 7600 35 whelen, is a top choice,
Ive used one and I don,t see a damn thing thats in need of improvement if you hunt the ticker timber areas.
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heres a recoil calculator
http://handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...looking-for-a-good-7mm-rem-mag-elk-load.6270/

many people find a 30/06 with a 180 grain bullet in a 8 lb rifle about the max recoil they can easily tolerate
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now if your serious, remington sells titanium rifles in caliber 280 rem, that weigh about 6.3 lbs without a scope,for about $1700, and while expensive its certainly not totally excessive if your into high country elk hunts
The key to its lightweight feel starts with a titanium receiver that's impervious to weather (drilled and tapped for mounts) incredibly strong, and half the weight of steel. Complementing the super-light receiver is a bolt featuring spiral-cut flutes and a 24" magnum contour barrel with light-varmint-style fluting. The action is pillar bedded for outstanding shot-to-shot consistency. Its premium Bell & Carlson stock features their MaxxGuard finish for enhanced durability and R3® recoil pad
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http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... stic_Black
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use of a cartridge holder is frequently a good idea
now personally I think spending an extra $700-$1200 on an elk rifle to save 3/4-2 lbs is not a great trade-off in value but everyone needs to make their own judgment, for myself I have found the lower two rifles light enough, and I carry a 9.9 lb 340 weatherby fibermark when I know IM not going to be more than a mile or two from camp.
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?ad ... g.firearms
the siren song of the fly-weight rifle beckons many a hunter who's spent time climbing steep slopes at higher altitudes, I know I sure went that route for several years with a ruger 270 win single shot and a 2.5X Leopold scope
it was light weight, exceptionally accurate, short, handy ,a joy to Carry , and deadly on game with a 150 grain speer over a stiff load of IMR 4831, and a federal 215 primer
http://www.ruger.com/products/no1LightSporter/models.html
but I found I was just as tired and out of breath at the end of each short section of the climbs, up those slopes.
maybe IM masochistic , but I grab my slide action rem 35 whelen , 375 H&H SAKO carbine or BLR 358 win more often ,than the 270 win carbine if I know Im going to be walking all day , or even my 340 wby with its bi-pod that weights easily 10 lbs with bi-pod and scope and sling a and just cover the area a bit slower and glass more frequently, and my success ratio seems to stay fairly consistent, no mater the firearm selected and while theres a noticeable difference in power between a 270 win and 358 win vs the larger 340 wby and 375 H&H every one is lethal in skilled hands
on some extended back pack trips into steep canyons Ive carried a ruger single shot with receiver sites to minimize weight
http://www.ruger.com/products/no1LightS ... odels.html

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on other hunts I carried a Remington 7600 in 35 whelen caliber, its heavier but its also extremely effective on elk!
Its been so darn effective that several of the guys in out hunt group have purchased those 7600 Remington slide action rifles in 35 whelen and 30/06 after watching me use mine on hunts in the thick timber, its one of the few rifles that are not extremely expensive (over $700 plus) that Ive found to be darn near perfect as a one rifle elk hunting tool, as you can pick one up on sale at times for under $500

On many trips I back-pack into rather remote areas,
having total faith in the dependability and effectiveness ,
in what I carry far out-weights any concern over rifle weight
Ive carried a SAKO 375 H&H on many back pack hunts
loaded with a 300 grain bullet over a stiff load of WW760 has never failed to drop a single deer or elk Ive shot, I
gladly accept the 8.5 lb weight and moderate recoil, after all you only need that one or two shots a season.
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if a pound or two of extra rifle weight, keeps you from checking out the next ridge or canyon,
how in hell are you going to pack out 60-90 lbs of elk meat on several return trips,
from the spot you drop that elk?

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...qH&Weight=300&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

theres about 16 solid and consistent long term members and an additional 6-10 guys that seem to come and go, as members in my elk hunt club.
two of the most popular cartridges in my hunting club are the 358 win (mostly in browning BLRs) and the 35 whelen in remington 7600 and several bolt actions) by far the 250 grain speer
the 358 win in the blr pushes that 250 grain speer bullet to about 2300fps
the whelen pushes that 250 grain speer bullet to about 2500fps
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Id remind anyone looking to purchase an accurate dependable hunting rifle that youll want high quality optics and rock solid scope mounts, the best rifle available will be seriously hampered if its not matched to clear and solidly consistent optics!
one of the most common failures I've seen over the decades was not related to the basic rifle function (although that did on occasion happen) but much more commonly loose scope mounts or cheap optics that failed to retain zero or fogged.
for most hunting you don,t need some huge high magnification scope , what you need is decent quality and rock solid dependability.
the newer LEOPOLD and NIKON 30mm tube size scopes are mostly an excellent value for the price.
yes theres hundreds of options, but if your looking for a good value Id suggest you want to select one with top quality optics for the price, a 30mm tube and 50mm front lens in a well known respected brand is a good start point for good low light transmission and clear target,vision. something similar to these linked below would provide an excellent match to a deer or elk rifle to be used for precise shot placement with most reasonable caliber elk/deer rifles, set on the lowest setting they allow you to make very rapid and accurate shots, if you have the time to get a solid field position, jack the magnification up as required.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1362146064/leupold-vx-r-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-3-9x-50mm-matte

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...aff-7-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-25-10x-50mm-matte

https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/12325-browning-blr-scout-style-mount.html

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/519551/weaver-6-hole-weaver-style-rings-matte?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Optics - Scope Rings, Bases, Mounting & Accessories&utm_content=519551&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Optics - Scope Rings, Bases, Mounting & Accessories-_-Weaver-_-519551&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq6X4zMqA2QIV2brACh0otQ2aEAQYAiABEgIgfPD_BwE

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/917995/weaver-surethread-adhesive-10-ml

my late hunting partner considered anyone not equipped, with a browning BLR in caliber 358 win ,
while hunting elk too be hampered and working under a sever dis-advantage
I loaded for him for almost 30 years , fed 215 primer, 250 grain speer and 44 grains of IMR 4064
that carbine accounted for at least 14 elk over 35 years.
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theres several guys in my elk hunting club that really prefer to carry a browning BLR, my late hunting partner, RON, preferred a BLR in 358 win loaded with a 250 grain speer over 44 grains of IMR 4064 and a fed 215 primer
consistent 1"-1.2" bench rested 100 yard 3 shot groups were common.
sighted in at 3.5" high at 100 yards its almost dead on at 200 yards and about 10"-12" low at 300 yards, he used that load for over 3 decades and was very successful, most elk were 1 shot kills.
I don,t think either guy ever had in the last 35-40 years a single shot taken exceeding 200 yards
https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullets/rifle-bullets/hot-cor-rifle-bullet/2453
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...;type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
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one other guy FRANK, prefers the 308 win BLR loaded with a speer 200 grain bullet over 45 grains of WW760 was his preferred load.

https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullets/rifle-bullets/hot-cor-rifle-bullet/2211


http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...;type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
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he constantly referred to my 340 wby as a "damn CANNON"
we were both successful.
either and both have an enviable record of a long list of very dead elk and mule deer, so much in fact that several of each rifle in those calibers have been purchased due too the consistent successful results.
I purchased both my 7600 remington and my browning BLR after years of watching both convincingly fill tags.
those two are almost the standard most of the guys use to judge other rifles.
I still use my 35 whelen 7600 pump action,and 450 marlin blr


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HERES A NICE ELK (no not one I shot but still nice)
ELK COUNTRY IN MY EXPERIENCE LOOKS MOSTLY LIKE THIS
PRODUCTIVE ELK HUNTING COUNTRY IN MY EXPERIENCE, HAS BEEN MOSTLY SIMILAR TO THESE PICTURES POSTED BELOW
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these are rather typical pictures of ELK hunting terrain in my experience
IT RARE TO SEE ELK IN OPEN AREAS,LIKE THIS POSTED BELOW, DURING HUNTING SEASON DAY LIGHT HOURS
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when I first started elk hunting several of the older guy had 30/06 rifles , many were converted military bolt guns as that was almost a STANDARD item, and many of the more experienced guys preferred the Remington 760 (a early version of the current 7600), as they were considered just as accurate and much faster on follow-up shots, but once the limited run of 35 whelen 7600 slide action rifles was announced several of us in my elk hunting group,instantly ordered one, and no one I know who has one would easily part with their 35 whelen rem 7600 rifles as they have proven to be excellent ELK hunting tools.!, in fact those rifles are now highly sought after by the more experience hunters that like hunting the steeper and thicker areas, as they can shrug off years of minor abuse and remain accurate and totally dependable
remington slide action

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LOWER CANYON

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upper canyon

picture yourself slowly walking, in a walk 20-40 yards ,stop and glass,for 10-12 minutes, along the slope on one side of the canyon about 200 yards up from the bottom while your hunting companion walks the opposite slope , you'll find this method quite effective, especially if a second pair of hunters start hunting from the opposite end of the canyon, elk spotting one hunter will generally move making them more easily seen from the oposite slope.



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If you can find one in caliber 35 whelen in good shape, at a decent price, don,t hesitate! GRAB IT!!
they are a really good ELK rifle!
every choice, in selecting an elk rifle is a compromise, in several areas, but the 358 BLR and 35 whelen remington slide action, with a decent low power scope, have both proven to be excellent choices in the opinion of almost everyone in our elk hunting camp, so much so that most of us own and use one or the other of those two rifles to use when hunting the narrow canyons and timbered slopes

most of the guys I hunt ELK with have found that they rarely get shots at elk over about 300 yards and that the 30/06,35 whelen and 338/06, and 338 win are about the ideal power range in an ELK rifle, at least in the steep canyon and thick timbered slopes we tend to hunt in.
Once most of the guys saw how accurate the 7600 slide action rifles were many of my freinds purchased one in either 30/06 or 35 whelen,for still hunting the timber, as they are fairly light weight, dependable and reasonably priced in most cases.
when I started elk hunting many of the older guys were using the Remington slide action 760 30/06 rifles and on their advise that was my first elk rifle,I could have stuck with that rifle and saved uncounted thousands spent on (NEWER more powerful rifles)I can,t remember a time that the 30/06 slide action would not have got the job done.
(but then I would have missed a great deal of experimentation with larger calibers)
btw if youve got a good 30/06 ,many of the guys Ive hunted ELK with(including myself) have used the SPEER 200 grain bullets over the years and I can,t ever remember anyone not being happy with the accuracy or results on game, while it may not have the impact effect of some of the larger calibers its dependable and its what most of the guys have me load for them in their 30/06 elk hunt ammo (Ive generally used H4831 and a 215 fed primer)

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... spx?id=103

I have zero problem using that combo if I use my 30/06 , but I usually grab my 35 whelen on most hunts, where I use my Remington slide action rifles

theres little doubt that a shorter and lighter rifles easier to carry, but you don,t normally use a rifle just for its ease of transport! at least in my case I put a good deal of thought into what it can do in as far as power and accuracy once its actually used!
hell! my 3.7 lb 22LR CRICKET rifle I bought to teach my kids to shoot is easier to carry than my 9.5 lb 340wby , or a 9 lb 375 H&H with its scope and bi-pod , but once you actually get close enough to an elk in a location where you can take a shot the difference in effectiveness of that 22LR cricket PALES in comparison to the 340wby,or 375 H&H so the 340 wby or 375 H&H gets taken when I hunt ELK almost every time!
Now Im not against using a longer range rifle, Ive also found a custom single shot falling block rifle in 300 WBY very useful, its just that Ive seldom need the velocity or range potential.

we have all spent time in rather senseless debates, about what rifle caliber or bullet weight is better, or what rifle design or action type is best.
we all are convinced our choices are the best ones, and everyone else is making a mistake,
after watching guys in our hunt club over decades, its all too obvious too me at least that its not the rifle or cartridge selected as much as the,
skill and experience of the guy who is using it that maters.

I've watched one guys dad who is even older than I am convincingly kill several elk with a 257 Roberts with a single shot each time.
I've come to really like using a 340 wby, 375 H&H, and 450 marlin, I can,t remember needing a second shot in 4 decades,
most of the guys think I'm a bit odd, and most use as they always have, a 308 win, 30/06 or 35 whelen.
a few guys like the 358 win, those are by far the more popular choices.....
Originally I was sure my rifle choices made a huge improvement, and for me it instills 100% confidence.
but it does not seem to make a bit of difference... what does make a difference is attitude and persistence!
If anyone really paid any real attention, its been obvious, for decades,
its the guys who are willing to get their butts up and out of camp, and spend every available minute of daylight out in the field,
the guys who spend off season weekends at the range,
and guys that buy and bring topo maps and aerial photos of the areas we hunt,to camp,
the guys who are willing to keep in decent physical condition,rather than try to get back in shape the week before,
we take the trip out west, that are consistently more successful.
Im certainly not suggesting a 30/30 and a 340 wby have similar power or range,
but in the hands of a skilled hunter, who knows his rifles limitations, and selected it,
and is willing to work with-in that equipment's limitations,
either choice, works well.
youll find a great many threads discussing cartridges, a 30/06 with the proper ammo, like a good 180-200 grain bullet, will kill any elk if the guys using it understands its limitations on range and the animals anatomy, and will certainly work well in over 80% of the areas and conditions your likely to see.
that does not mean its ideal, every caliber and rifle compromises in some area of range,recoil or penetration, rifle weight etc. so the person selecting the rifle will make a choice he feels makes the best compromises,
personally I want a bit more power and bullet mass and I'm willing to accept more rifle weight and recoil... most people don,t want those factors.
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Lots of guys want to debate the merits and flaws of the 270 win vs the 30/06,
that particular debates been going on well before I was born and I'm 70 plus years old,
Ive used both and I don,t see much difference in performance with proper ammo matching the intended game
I do think the 150 grain 270 bullet is marginally superior to the 130 grain, but your experience may differ from mine.
most of the guys Ive hunted elk and deer with have used the 30/06 ,165 grain for deer and the 180-200 grain for elk,
but Ive seen easily a dozen plus elk killed with both the 270 and 30/06, over the last 50 years,
and the difference in how the elk react to a properly placed shot, is minimal at best.
Id suggest selecting the rifle you like best
one guy Ive hunted with for 30 years loves his 30/06 BLR
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another guy has successfully used a ruger single shot 270 win, for even longer
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I always have to smile a bit when I see these threads, if your asked to make a suggestion, regarding selection of any type of equipment,
its mandatory that the person asking for advise, provide the rather more experienced person(s) he is asking with ALL the perimeters and legal limitations,based
on the area and terrain being hunted, the game, being hunted, and likely range limitations.
obviously if the area your hunting is limited to a shot gun, or strait wall cartridge or if theres game department caliber or muzzle energy limits, caliber minimums etc.
those limits must be stated for the advise to be a reasonable match to the intended usage, and area.
most of us have several favorites in rifles and calibers, or your recoil tolerance,
but I could no more select the rifle and caliber that best matches your anticipated needs best,
than I could anticipate your , choice in a wife.
yes there are dozens of well, proven combos, most are fully functional in most areas, under most common conditions and ranges.
and its the skill and confidence and experience of the guy using the rifle that tends to mater more than the rifle or caliber selected, in many cases.
I hunted with many guys than own and hunt with several different rifles, and two guys Ive hunted with for decades have stuck with two rather different rifles
(a 358 win BLR and a single shot ruger #1 in 270 win) both have long records of successful hunts
 
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in my experience you rarely get a perfect angle and your usually only going to get a single shot, ranges seldom exceed 350 yards ,in my 40 plus years of experience, now Id have no problem using a 30/06 or a 300 wby, I started out the first few years using a 30/06 and it killed with a single shot but it didn,t impress me, as most elk ran 40-60 yards, I feel much more confident with a heavier bullet,and a bit more oomph

these are my five favorite elk cartridges, in approximately the order I prefer them, now a 270 win or a 30/06 will kill any elk stone dead , but these medium calibers , with the 250grain-to-300 grain projectiles in the mid 2000 fps velocity range do an excellent job of hammering an elk in skilled hands, where they easily penetrate deeply thru organs from all reasonable angles, and don,t fragment nearly as badly as the smaller caliber and higher velocity bullets from the faster and lighter calibers seem too.
Ive used a 340 wby and 375 H&H on most ELK HUNTS

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340 wby 250 grain hornady at 2875 fps
375H&H, 300 grain hornady at 2600 fps
338 win-250 grain hornady at 2600 fps
35 whelen-250 grain speer at 2450 fps
9.3mm x 62mm 286 grain hornady at 2380 fps


Ive seen many elk killed very effectively with a 270win-30/06 Ive even used a 30/06 on several, Ive watched the results others in my group have had,and sure dressed out enought elk to know the difference in the damage and penetration Ive seen,I just trust the heavier calibers more and have more near instant kills with them than I had with a 30/06, its not really that you need the extra power but I have 100% confidence in all those rifles after seeing the results in several peoples hand on elk.
After 40 plus years hunting ELK I can tell your going to find out eventually that elk hunt success is really not about EQUIPMENT, its 90% persistence, the area you hunt and the skill level of the guy holding the rifle, not the type of action or caliber you select

Id almost guarantee, I or any of my experienced freinds could use a 25/06 or 257 Roberts and kill an elk faster in good country than your average new hunter with a 7mm or 300 mag, its not so much equipment as it is getting into the location and range to take the shot and knowing how to place it exactly where it needs to go.
you can,t make smart choices without a calculated ballistic trajectory chart, if I miss jusge range a bit its never proven to be an issue and elk are fairly large targets, a good bi-pod, sling and scope helps, but lots of practice from field positions rather than off the bench is mandatory
heres my 340 wby sighted in at 3" at 100 yards and again at 3.5" at 100 yards
Ive sighted in 3.5" high and you can basically ignore worrying about trajectory issues where I hunt because its been decades since Ive seen an elk under hunt conditions past 300 yards

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/balli ... t=f630255c
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3" high
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3.5" high
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you simply sight in at 100 yards off the bench on the yellow dot and have all the shots print over the smaller red dot, you sure don,t have to use this method or even agree but I can assure you its resulted in a bunch of dead elk
a good 120 grain 25 cal speer grand slam, slipped in behind the front leg, into the arteries over the heart will kill any elk, but given a choice Id prefer to make the same shot with a 340 wby and 250 grain hornady


I think we spend a great deal more time discussing, differences in calibers and there effectiveness than is truly warranted , I killed my first few bull elk and a cow elk with a 30/06 and 200 grain speer bullets , those worked just fine if you only looked at the results pragmatically, IE, one shot resulted in a dead elk, but I was young and wanted the ELK to drop on bullet impact, so I bought a 340 wby, and the next few ELK did drop, but as I gained experience I found that although the heavier calibers tended to work a bit more consistently when I did my part placing the shot well, the caliber was not as important as the shot placement, Ive since use a 358 win,35 whelen, 45/70, 378 wby,375 H&H, 458 win, on elk hunts (hey Im a rifle nut)but after 40 plus years , hunting ELK its rather obvious that most of my experienced freinds or I could use almost anything from a 257 Roberts to a 458 win and kill elk.
now obviously the calibers with both a flat trajectory (at least 2500fps minimum)and a substantial bullet weight, (150-300 grain) in the better bullet designs will have an advantage
BTW
almost every time I back pack a 60-70 lb load of ELK out of some canyon the smarter guys avoid going down into I swear Im 90% of the way to having a heart attack, Ive learned to just make small goals, like making it to the next large rock or tree thats 50-70 yards away rather than think about the 3-4 miles and hours it takes many times.
you have a choice, hunt easy terrain near roads so you can easily remove any elk you shoot,and use a cheap pack,.....or hunt where there actually ARE decent ELK, and use a quality pack that distributes about 80% of the weight on your hips/waist

THIS IS A PICTURE OF ONE OF SEVERAL OF THE AREA,S I HUNT FREQUENTLY FOR ELK
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LOWER CANYON
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upper canyon
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much of the area looks similar too these pictures I found posted elseware
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these are rather typical pictures of ELK hunting terrain in my experience
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these are rather typical pictures of ELK hunting terrain in my experience
sometimes I think many of us get a bit to involved, in making or equipment selections, one of my late hunting partners had only 3 big game rifles and I rarely saw him hunt elk with anything other than a BLR in caliber 358 win loaded with a 250 grain speer bullet over 44 grains of imr 4064
he sighted in at 200 yards and with that load his rifles almost exactly 3.5" high at 100 yards and 10" low at 300 yards, now that may not sound like a flat trajectory, and compared to a 7mm mag its not, but that rifle accounted for at least 12 elk over 35 years (every legal elk he saw while hunting)and did a great job on every one of them. he never saw the need for more range or power, in fact he frequently joked about my use of a heavy "CANNON" when he watched me use my 340 weatherby on hunts far down in remote canyons.
he had a good point in that I rarely saw elk past 200 yards in fact 135 yards would be more likely the average range and even thats a bit slanted because while there were a few 350 yard shots , 60-80 yards were more common.
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http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... 1-firearms

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while this is NOT my 375 H&H sako carbine, in the picture posted above, My SAKO CARBINE is almost an exact clone except, that my stocks about 5 shades darker, so its about as dark as walnut gets.
I found this picture posted on the internet, it could be a clone of the sako carbine Ive used for decades, if the stock color was about 6 shades darker walnut ,
mines about the color of a semi sweet dark chocolate
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http://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/85BavarianCarbine.pdf
SAKO still sells a similar carbine in 9.3x62 mm
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the carbines been, on dozens of elk hunts and its become almost a good luck charm of sorts, you don,t need that kind of power , a 270 win with 150 grain bullets has far less recoil and can kill any elk, but if you can handle the recoil level and shoot it well the larger bullets these calibers provide, HAMMER ELK, and Ive found they provide a noticeable increase in the percentage of elk I shoot that show a marked reaction to being hit.
from what I've seen a great deal of proper (or at least the cartridge you have confidence in)
cartridge selection is partially based on,
keep in mind I started hunting mostly elk in canyon country where ranges over 300 yards were rare,
and I made most of my decisions based on what I saw on many out of state hunts back in the early 1970s, through the early 2000s
Most people made choices based on what the person making the choice has seen other successful hunters he knows are using and or,
his personal experiences related to what hes seen, first hand, and what hes got the most confidence in using.
that and many guys are very recoil sensitive,
When I started hunting it was almost written in granite that you needed a 30/06 Springfield.
after watching very carefully what other people had been using successfully,
and having an un-realistic expectation that everything hit should drop on bullet impact,
and helping dress out several dozen mule deer and elk.(brought into camp)
I was 100% confident in my choice of a 340 wby, and a 375 H&H as the two best possible choices.
why just looking at the cartridges gave one confidence,
this was mostly based on the fact that everything Id shot or seen shot with those rifle calibers, had, when dressed out,
a very easy to follow bullet path from impact to exit in a strait line regardless of range or angle,
and you could easily see a very noticeable difference in the reaction of game hit with the larger calibers,
and the bullets did not turn to glitter like the 300 and 7mm mags seemed too.
As I gained experience I began too realize this was more related to crappy bullet designs
,being selected, and the fact many guys could not place shots accurately,
many guys selected ammo mostly based on either price or advertising,rather than putting thought into the game, hunted,
potential range it would be used at or intended velocity ,or caliber.
especially once a friends dad consistently dropped elk with a 257 roberts and 115 grain nosler partitions.
one guy I hunted with for decades used a browning BLR in 358 win with a 250 grain speer bullet,
one other guy used a 270 win single shot with 150 grain hornadys exclusively.
eventually it became obvious even to me that while my larger caliber rifles worked flawlessly,
other people were racking up similar success records with a fairly wide range of calibers just as successfully,
and it was more related to the skill of the rifleman and proper bullet selection than the caliber or head stamp on the cartridge case.
I still feel 100% confident in my personal choices but Im no longer convinced there any reason other choices don,t make much sense,
theres just too many guys filling freezers with the 25-30 caliber rifles consistently.




 
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Compared: Elk Rifles in the Field

By the Guns and Shooting Online Staff

During elk season we adopted the same strategy we used during deer season, essentially turning the season into a series of day or weekend hunts, each using a different rifle. This allowed us to compare the strong and weak points of various elk rifles in the field.

Oregon is home for Roosevelt and Rocky Mountain elk. The former are found primarily along the coast and in the coastal foothills, while the latter are generally east of the Cascade summit. The Roosevelt elk is a large, heavy bodied elk; mature (6 point) males probably average 700 pounds on the hoof and 8 feet in length. The weight range is given as 600-1100 pounds, although bulls at the upper end of that range are very rare. Particularly during the hunting season, Roosevelt elk generally prefer the cover of the deep woods to open spaces.

Rocky Mountain elk are lighter than their Roosevelt cousins and usually inhabit more open (though wooded) country. Adult males probably average about 500 pounds on the hoof with 600 pound, 6 point bulls being fairly common. Very large individual animals may weigh 800 pounds.

Here at Guns and Shooting Online we are fortunate to own a number of rifles that can legitimately be used to hunt elk, most frequently in Oregon's Cascade Mountains. This is steep, forested country. It combines aspects of mountain hunting and woods hunting. Long range calibers such as the .270 Weatherby Magnum and short range numbers such the .45-70 are both appropriate, depending on the specific locale hunted. In fact, rifles for both of those calibers are included in this comparison.

Here are the elk rifles that we have been able to compare:

* Browning 1885 High Wall - falling block single shot.
* Browning BAR Mk. II Safari Grade - autoloader.
* Browning BLR Lightweight - lever action.
* Browning/FN Safari Grade - bolt action.
* Kimber Model 84M Classic - bolt action
* Marlin Model 338 MXLR - lever action.
* Marlin Model 444 - lever action.
* Remington Model 673 - bolt action.
* Remington Model 798 - bolt action.
* Ruger No. 1-B Standard Rifle - falling block single shot.
* Ruger No. 1-S Medium Sporter - falling block single shot.
* Ruger Model 77R Mk. II - bolt action.
* Weatherby Mark V Deluxe - bolt action.
* Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe - bolt action.
* Winchester Classic Model 70 - bolt action.
* (New) Winchester Model 70 Supe Grade - bolt action.


The hunting technique was simple. Two to four hunters would meet in the morning and finalize the day's hunting plan, assisted by highly detailed Forrest Service maps. We would then drive into the Cascades. Once in the general area we had selected, we would follow gravel or unimproved dirt roads to the specific area(s) we had chosen to hunt. Usually we would hunt more than one area during any given day, using a pickup or SUV to transit from one hunting location to another.

Once we had arrived at the selected hunting area, we proceeded on foot. Usually at least one hunter took an impromptu stand, while the other(s) still hunted a predetermined area in the same general vicinity. Thus all of the rifles were used at least briefly from a stand and, more importantly, while still hunting (walking slowly and quietly in search of game).

Following are our impressions of the individual rifles. At the end of the comments about each rifle we have given them an overall "elk rifle score" based on an A (Excellent), B (Good), C (Satisfactory), D (Poor), and F (Failure) grading system, just like in school. Remember, these grades represent our subjective evaluation of these particular models as elk hunting rifles. The scores would likely be quite different for some other application or if the rifles were judged by different criteria.

The selected rifles were carefully sighted-in at the range before being taken hunting. All of them proved more than sufficiently accurate to reliably kill an elk within their maximum point blank range (MPBR). That is all the accuracy necessary in an elk rifle. Accuracy was therefore not a factor in the final results. Most of these rifles are available in a variety of calibers more or less suitable for shooting elk.

A good trigger pull is very helpful to shooting any rifle accurately and most of these rifles have satisfactory trigger mechanisms. The Ruger M77R Mk. II trigger became satisfactory after minor tuning, but the Browning BAR Mk. II has the sort of spongy, non-adjustable trigger pull typical of autoloading rifles.

Folowing are the elk hunting rifles, listed in alphabetical order.

Browning 1885 High Wall, .45-70 Govt.

The Browning 1885 High Wall is perhaps the most beautiful rifle in the group. It is a very high quality falling block, single shot rifle with an nicely figured walnut stock and forearm and a high luster blue job. The materials and workmanship are excellent throughout.

This is a 9.5 pound rifle (including scope and mount), with a heavy 28" octagon barrel that makes it muzzle heavy. It measures 44" in overall length. It wears a Redfield Widefield 2.5x fixed power scope that nicley suits the caliber and purpose of the rifle.

The Browning version of the High Wall is no longer offered, but essentially the same rifle is now offered under the Winchester name. Winchester and Browning are owned by the same holding company. Since its reintroduction under the Winchester name, the 1885 High Wall has been offered in elk calibers .30-06 Springfield and .270, 7mm, .300 and .325 WSM.

The killing power of the big .45 caliber, 350 grain Hornady RN bullet as handloaded here for a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2100 fps is unquestioned. This rifle is extremely accurate over its maximum point blank range (+/- 3") of 189 yards, probably the most consistently accurate rifle of the bunch.

The High Wall can be set to eject to the right, left, or not to eject at all; this rifle is set to eject to the right. Never the less, it was by far the slowest of all the rifles for a repeat shot. The fat, round nose bullets and the rifle's flat breech face combined to make rapid reloading a hit or miss proposition. On the other hand, its falling block action made this Browning very easy and safe to unload before piling back into the vehicle after a stalk.

Some of us right handed shooters prefer to carry hunting rifles slung muzzle down over our left shoulders. We have found that from this position they are faster to get into action. However, this put the muzzle of the High Wall's long barrel too close to the ground for comfort. We found it advisable to carry the High Wall slung muzzle up over the right shoulder, as soldiers carry rifles on parade.

Its weight made still hunting with the big Browning more of a chore than necessary. Although we lugged the High Wall a good distance, up and down hill, it was not our favorite rifle for the purpose.

On the other hand, when shooting from a rest the long, heavy rifle settled down on the target quickly and its inherent accuracy and steadiness inspired confidence. From a solid rest, the 1885's weight and heavy barrel are an asset.

Although it is an exceptionally accurate and very fine rifle, the length, weight and relatively short MPBR of the big bore Browning 1885 relegates it to the bottom of our list in this comparison. Final score: D (Poor).

Browning BAR Mk. II Safari Grade with BOSS, .338 Win. Mag.


The Safari Grade BAR Mk. II is a big rifle. It weighs about 9 pounds 6 ounces with its Simmons Whitetail Expedition 1.5-6x scope and measures 45" in length from its rubber butt pad to the tip of its 24" BOSS equipped barrel. It was purchased primarily as a dangerous game rifle, where the quick second shot provided by its autoloading action might prove decisive and for that application it is unexcelled.

This rifle shoots exceptionally well with Remington Express factory loads using the 225 grain Core-Lokt bullet. This is an excellent elk load, so that is what we used in the BAR. The MV of that load is 2780 fps and the MPBR is 274 yards, so it will reach across a clear cut if necessary.

The BAR proved too long and heavy, in our estimation, to be an ideal elk rifle. On the other hand, a rifle firing a cartridge as powerful as the .338 Magnum has to be heavy to moderate the considerable recoil. (Sort of a Catch-22.) The BAR is quite accurate and from a solid rest it serves very well, but as a still hunting rifle its weight and bulk are a disadvantage. Another disadvantage is this rifle's rather poor trigger mechanism, the worst of the rifles compared here.

Slung over the shoulder the big autoloader should be carried barrel up. Carried muzzle down there is too much chance of jamming the muzzle into the ground.

The BAR's box magazine is attached to its swing open floorplate. This is released by a large catch located in front of the trigger guard. The magazine loading procedure is simple. The floorplate is swung open and three cartridges are pressed into the magazine. The floorplate is then closed. Pull the bolt fully rearward and then release it to chamber a cartridge.

Unloading is not quite as simple if a cartridge has been chambered. First, swing the floorplate open. Then use the bolt handle to pull the bolt fully rearward, ejecting the chambered cartridge. Unfortunately, the plunger ejector in the bolt face will throw the cartridge some distance unless you catch it in the air.

The box magazine may be detached from the floorplate and pocketed. It is not necessary to unload the magazine unless you want to. For transport to the next hunting area, we simply closed the bolt on the empty chamber, replaced the ejected cartridge in the magazine and then swung the floorplate shut. This leaves the magazine attached and fully loaded, but the rifle is completely safe. To get back into action, you need only to rack the action.

The safety is a button in the rear of the trigger guard that blocks the movement of the trigger. It is completely separate from the operation of the action; loading and unloading can be accomplished on "safe." This safety is positive, but not convenient to use quickly in the field.

On the plus side, the BAR's autoloading action offers the quickest possible follow-up shot and serves to significantly reduce the apparent recoil of the powerful .338 Magnum cartridge. Its accuracy and ballistics are excellent; we regard the .338 Win. Mag. as a superb Rocky Mountain elk cartridge. For those who want something less, the Safari grade BAR Mk. II is also available in other elk hunting calibers including .270 Win., 7mm Rem. Mag., .308 Win., .30-06 and .300 Win. Mag.

In summation, the Safari Grade BAR is akward to carry in the hand, on horseback, or even in a hunting vehicle. However, when the action starts it is admittedly very hard to beat. The Lightweight Stalker version of the BAR, which is available in elk calibers from .270 Win. to .338 Win. Mag., might be a different story. It is about a pound lighter. Final score for the Safari Grade BAR Mk. II with BOSS: D+ (Poor).

Browning BLR Lightweight, .358 Win.

The Browning BLR Lightweight is a carbine length (20" barrel in .358), rack and pinion operated, lever action rifle chambered for a number of powerful cartridges. Among the most appropriate of these for the short to medium range elk hunter is .358 Winchester, a proven elk cartridge. As tested, our BLR weighed 7-3/4 pounds with scope and mount and measured 40" in overall length. Lever action operation means that it has a smooth receiver, comfortable to carry in the hand or slung over either shoulder, barrel up or down. This makes it an easy rifle to carry in the field, particularly on arduous hunts.

The Winchester .358 factory load advertises a 200 grain Silvertip bullet at a MV of 2490 fps and 2753 ft. lbs. ME. Specialty ammo makers such as Stars & Stripes offer a variety of other bullets. Our BLR prefers the S&S factory load using a 220 grain Speer Hot-Cor bullet and it shoots this load very accurately. This is an excellent elk load, so that is what we used in the BLR.

The BLR is a handy rifle to carry still hunting or to use from a tree stand or ground blind, where a long barrel may be inconvenient. Its action is exceptionally smooth and allows very quick follow-up shots. The trigger pull is considerably better than the BAR, but not as good as a typical Browning X-bolt rifle.

The trigger and trigger guard move with the lever when it is operated, so there is no chance of spearing your trigger finger when the lever is closed. The lever arc is shorter than the usual 90 degrees to speed cycling. The BLR action incorporates an external hammer, so there is no question whether it is cocked. This hammer has a very wide and comfortable thumb spur that is positioned low enough for use with a receiver mounted scope. Safety is by means of a conventional "quarter cock" hammer position.

The BLR's steel, detachable, four round box magazine drops free when the release is pressed. The release is located in front of the magazine well, secure and easy to operate. The magazine itself is easy to load and should be inserted with the bolt closed.

Unloading is as simple as dropping the magazine and operating the action to eject the chambered round. To get back into action, you need only to reinsert the magazine and operate the lever to chamber a cartridge.

In summation, the Browning BLR lightweight is about as good an elk rifle as the woods hunter is going to find, portable, powerful, accurate and fast in action. There is even a Takedown BLR model that is ideal for the traveling hunter. Final score for the Browning BLR Lightweight: A (Excellent).

Browning/FN Safari Grade, .458 Win. Mag.

This bolt action rifle was manufactured in the 1960's and is an African veteran. It has been there and done that. Like most such rifles, it came with iron sights. Now it would be pressed into service as an elk rifle. No one needs a .458 Magnum to kill elk, and with full power loads the recoil is punishing. Loaded down for CXP2/CXP3 class game, it performed just fine.

Perhaps the most evident thing about the Browning/FN rifle is the craftsmanship that went into it. The fit and finish are impeccable, the action is slick and completely reliable, and the crisp trigger feels like a good trigger should. The smooth, round bolt knob is easy to grasp and operate quickly. The well shaped stock mounts quickly and handles recoil well. It is a confidence inspiring firearm.

The extractor is a claw in the bolt's front rim. Ejection is by means of a spring operated plunger in the bolt face, which throws emptys well clear of the rifle. The two position rocker safety is simple and quiet in operation, as befits a dangerous game rifle. It locks the bolt closed when in the "safe" position to prevent accidental opening of the action, a good feature on a dangerous game rifle.

Chuck Hawks wrote an article ("Compared: the .45-70 and .458 Win. Mag. for North American and European Hunting"), which you can find on the Rifle Cartridge Page, suggesting reduced loads to "civilize" the .458 Magnum, and that is exactly the sort of load we chose for elk hunting. We used SR 4759 powder to drive a 400 grain Speer JSP bullet at a MV of 1400 fps, essentially duplicating the performance of a standard velocity .45-70 load. Not only does this reduce recoil to moderate levels, it also proved to be exceptionally accurate at the range, delivering MOA groups at 100 yards. This is an excellent brush cartridge, but a long range load it is not (MPBR 136 yards), so we used it to still-hunt the thickets in preference to glassing the clear cuts. If more steam is desired, a 350 grain bullet can be driven to a MV of around 2100 fps before recoil gets completely out of hand.

The old Browning is not particularly long or heavy as safari rifles go; in fact, it is something of a lightweight .458 Mag. It wears a 24" barrel and weighs about 9 pounds with its 1-4x Leupold scope. This made it no more of a burden than the Weatherby bolt actions and less of a burden than the Browning High Wall and Safari Grade BAR rifles.

It was as easy to get in and out of the back of the SUV as any other bolt action rifle with a 24" barrel. Its hinged floor plate and traditional full length action made it easy to load and unload at our frequent stops. To unload only the chamber, open the bolt fully to eject the chambered cartridge, then put that cartridge back into the magazine. Use a thumb to press down the cartridges in the magazine so that the bolt can be slid forward over them, and closed on the empty chamber. The rifle is now completely safe, but can be returned to action simply by operating the bolt, chambering a cartridge. To fully unload the rifle, open the bolt, removing the chambered cartridge, and then swing open the floorplate, dumping the remaining cartridges out of the magazine.

The Browning's weight and inherent accuracy make it an excellent rifle for use from shooting sticks or from a stand. Unfortunately, the .458 cartridge, especially as handloaded, works against it here. This is basically a short range cartridge.

As a stalking rifle, the Safari Grade Browning must be one of the best .458's in the business. It is longer and heavier than the Ruger 77R or Remington Model 673, but no worse than most other magnum rifles.

It is perhaps unfair to compare this CXP4 class dangerous game rifle to normal elk rifles and the .458 elephant cartridge lacks the relatively flat trajectory of most smaller calibers. The final score reflects that, but the reality is that there is not a great deal of difference between the Browning/FN and the rifles that scored higher in this comparison. If you own a .458 similar to the Browning and you want to load it down for elk or deer hunting, you will not be at any great disadvantage in the woods. In camp, a .458 rifle is a real attention getter! Final score: C- (Below Average).

Kimber Model 84M Classic, .338 Federal

Kimber added the fine .338 Federal cartridge to their nicely turned out, controlled feed, Model 84M bolt action rifle and thereby created one of the handiest of all bolt action elk rifles. This is a traditional matte blued steel, walnut stocked rifle with a 22" light contour barrel and a catalog weight of only 5 pounds, 10 ounces. The overall length is 41.25". Kimber has earned a reputation for producing very well made rifles and our 84M Classic is no exception.

The Kimber 84M action is a conventional design based largely on Mauser 98 and Winchester 70 design principles. It includes a fully adjustable trigger set to release at about 3.5-4 pounds by the factory. It is sized specifically--in all dimensions, not just length--for short action cartridges based on the .308 Winchester case. Among these cartridges the .338 Federal is the most powerful.

With a Leupold VX-II 2-7x33 scope (no iron sights are supplied) and steel scope mounts our Kimber weighs 7 pounds on the nose. This makes it one of the easiest carrying, bolt action elk rifles on the planet. The flip side of that coin, however, is that it is also one of the hardest kicking and its light contour barrel makes it load sensitive and not particularly accurate, as modern rifles go. However, it is sufficiently accurate when used within the MPBR of the .338 Federal cartridge. Fortunately, most elk rifles are carried a lot and shot very little and elk are large animals.

Like practically all bolt action rifles, the Kimber's bolt handle sticks out on the strong side and its one-piece stock makes the rifle wider through the action than a lever action or single shot rifle. This means that the Kimber, while handier and easier to carry than most other bolt action rifles, is not quite the equal of a lever or single shot rifle in the easy carrying, fast handling sweepstakes.

In .338 Federal caliber, bullets weighing between 200 and 225 grains are most appropriate for elk hunting. Among the current factory load offerings, the Federal Premium load using a 210 grain Nosler Partition bullet (SD .263) is the standout. This highly effective elk load produces a MV of 2630 fps and ME of 3225 ft. lbs. The maximum point blank range (+/- 3") is about 258 yards.

The Kimber 84M Classic can be carried slung over either shoulder, barrel up or down, and gotten into action with dispatch. Its smooth 22" barrel does not have a propensity to catch on brush. This rifle is about average for use from shooting sticks or a rest.

Due to its moderate overall length and light weight, the Kimber is the among the easiest of the rifles in this comparison to stow and to remove from the confines of a vehicle, surpassed only by the Marlin 444 and Ruger No. 1-S. The Kimber also gets a top grade among repeaters for the ease with which it can be loaded and with which a cartridge can be removed from the chamber and reinserted into the magazine. The open top design of the action is a big help here. The Winchester Model 70 type three-position safety contributes to the ease and safety of loading and unloading. At the end of the day the Kimber's inside the trigger guard magazine floor plate release makes it easy to dump the contents of the magazine into the hand.

The Kimber's excellent blend of positive features and powerful medium bore cartridge makes it a top contender in the great elk rifle sweepstakes. Final score: A- (Excellent).

Marlin Model 338 MXLR, .338 Marlin Express


The 338 MXLR is the rifle version of the Marlin 336 action chambered for the new .338 Marlin Express cartridge. It features a stainless steel barreled action, fluted bolt, Ballard rifling, 24" barrel and half magazine. This is known to be the "accuracy" version of the 336, a reputation borne out when we reviewed the XLR series rifles for Guns and Shooting Online.

Like the other Marlin 336 rifles we own, the overall quality and workmanship of the MXLR are good. The checkered, grey/black laminated hardwood stock incorporates a deluxe recoil pad. There are no carbine style barrel bands to potentially degrade accuracy. Like other lever action rifles, there is no bolt handle protruding from the side of the receiver to dig into the ribs or catch on things, a definite plus for carrying in the field and fast follow-up shots are a given.

The Model 338 MXLR is the same in operation and use as any other Marlin 336 action-based rifle. It weighs about 8 pounds with a 2-7x32mm scope and measures 42.5" in overall length. The barrel is fitted with traditional semi-buckhorn iron sights.

The greater overall length degrades the MXLR's utility as a "ready" rifle in the truck, but its longer barrel makes it somewhat superior to the shorter MX version (22" barrel, blued steel finish) for use from a rest. As with any Marlin 336, completely unloading the rifle at the end of the day is something of a chore. Cartridges must be individually cycled through the action and ejected. The crossbolt safety makes this procedure completely safe.

The Hornady LeverEvolution 200 grain Flex-Tip bullet as factory loaded for the .338 Marlin Express cartridge has an advertised MV of 2565 fps and ME of 2921 ft. lbs. The MPBR (+/- 3") of this load is in the vicinity of 250 yards. Recoil is noticeably less than for a .338 Magnum, a big advantage over most elk rifles.

The Marlin 338 MXLR does everything well when used with Hornady LEVERevolution ammunition. Its stainless steel construction gives it an advantage over more traditional blued steel lever action rifles, while its excellent accuracy and relatively flat trajectory make it equal to most bolt action rifles. Compared to the Browning BLR Lightweight in .358, the Marlin .338 is sleeker and more traditional in appearance, shoots flatter and carries more cartridges. On the other hand it is longer, heavier, less convenient to load and unload, a little slower to operate and not as smooth. Final score: B+ (Very Good).

Marlin Model 444, .444 Marlin

The Marlin Model 444 is a big bore version of the Marlin 336 action chambered for the .444 Marlin cartridge. It features a blued steel barreled action, 22" barrel with Ballard riflilng, 5-shot tubular magazine and walnut stock and forend.

Like other Marlin lever action rifles, the overall quality and workmanship of the 444 are good. The stock's pistol grip and forend are checkered and incorporate a rubber butt pad. There are no carbine style barrel bands to potentially degrade accuracy. There is also no bolt handle protruding from the side of the receiver to dig into the ribs or catch on things, a very good thing. For those who want an even bigger bullet, the nearly identical Marlin Model 1895 rifle is available in calibers .45-70 and .450 Marlin.

The Model 444 weighs about 8 pounds with a Weaver K4 Classic scope and measures 40.5" in overall length. The barrel is fitted with semi-buckhorn iron sights for those who insist on doing things the hard way. A crossbolt safety at the rear of the receiver as well as a traditional "1/4 cock" hammer position can be used to prevent an accidental discharge while hunting.

This rifles short overall length makes it well suited for use as a "ready" rifle in a vehicle, as well as an excellent stalking rifle. Its flat receiver, moderate weight and 22" barrel make it a top choice as a companion on long hikes. Its medium weight allows it to be held relatively steady from unsupported positions or when shooting over sticks.

Like any traditional Marlin lever action, completely unloading the rifle at the end of the day is something of a chore. Cartridges must be individually cycled through the action and ejected. However, the crossbolt safety makes this procedure completely safe.

Despite its name, the .444 Marlin cartridge actually uses .429" diameter bullets. There are three common factory loads offered in .444 Marlin. The Remington Express load uses a 240 grain bullet at a MV of 2350 fps. This is a devastating deer load, but the bullet lacks the necessary SD to make it a good elk projectile. Hornady offers two .444 factory loads, a LeverEvolution load and a Light Magnum load, both with 265 grain bullets. The Light Magnum version features a 265 grain Interlock bullet at a MV of 2335 fps with 3208 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Its trajectory gives it a MPBR of about 200 yards, but the big bullet sheds energy quickly. Keep your shots at mature bull elk to not much over 100 yards for best results. Recoil is reasonable, less than you might expect, particularly with Remington cartridges.

The Marlin 444 is a handy rifle that does everything well as long as ranges are kept fairly short. Final score: B (Good).

Remington Model 673 Guide Rifle, .350 Rem. Mag.

The bolt action Guide Rifle is moderate in weight (about 8.5 pounds with scope) and overall length (41 3/16"), and the powerful .350 Magnum cartridge will certainly do a bang-up job on elk. Adjustable iron sights are standard equipment. This rifle's quality and workmanship are about average for factory produced rifles in the 21st Century, but its ventilated rib barrel and two tone laminated wood stock set it apart. Other available calibers include 6.5mm Rem. Mag, .308 Win., and .300 Rem. SAUM.

The Guide Rifle is not burdensome to carry when still hunting, and it is steady when it comes time to shoot. It is short enough to be carried slung muzzle up or down. It is useful for both still hunting and shooting from a stand. Its greater than average recoil is the principle impediment to precise accuracy from shooting sticks or a rest, but its light, clean trigger (after adjustment) is an asset.

Compared to the other rifles used for still hunting, the 673 is easier to carry than the Browning High Wall, Browning/FN, BAR, Remington Model 798, Winchester Model 70 and the Weatherbys. The Model 673 and Ruger M77R are equal in length, weight, and caliber. Only the lightweight Kimber Classic is easier to carry on a long hike. These three rifles probably represent the best balance of size, weight and power among the bolt action rifles included in this comparison.

The 22" barrel provides decent ballistic performance with the .350 Magnum cartridge for which this rifle was designed. The Remington factory load, a 200 grain Core-Lokt PSP bullet at a MV of 2775 fps, is suitable for elk. It provides a MPBR (+/- 3") of around 260 yards and keeps recoil within tolerable limits. Accuracy in this particular rifle is good. The Leupold VX-II 1-4x scope worn by this rifle provides an exceptionally wide field of view and adequate magnification for shots out to 300 yards.

The Model 673 is based on the Model Seven bolt action and loads from the top, like any conventional bolt action rifle. However, its loading port is smaller than that of the Kimber, Ruger, Browning/FN, Winchester, Remington 798 or Weatherby bolt rifles, making loading slower and more troublesome. The hinged magazine floorplate makes unloading at the end of the day relatively easy, but the location of the Guide Rifle's floorplate release (a flush button directly in front of the trigger) is more difficult to manipulate than the others. On the other hand, it is also very unlikely to be hit accidentally. On balance, the 673 is a little more hassle to load and unload than the other bolt action rifles in this comparison, but not enough to be a serious impediment to its use.

Like all contemporary Remington bolt action rifles, this is a push feed design. The extractor is a spring steel circlip in the bolt's face that takes a rather small bite on the cartridge's rim. Ejection is by means of a spring operated plunger in the bolt face, which throws emptys well clear of the action. The fast and convenient Remington two position safety allows the bolt to be operated with the safety set, for extra safe unloading of the chambered round.

The bolt lift is approximately 90 degrees and the bolt raceway is not polished, so this was probably the slowest of the bolt action rifles to operate for a second shot. The checkered bolt knob looks good but does not feel as good in the hand as the smooth bolt knobs on the Browning, Weatherby, and Ruger rifles.

The Model 673's greatest asset is its excellent blend of size and power. An 8.5 pound rifle with a 22" barrel chambered for a powerful medium bore cartridge is potent elk medicine. Note, this model has been discontinued and replaced in the Remington line by a Model Seven CDL with a 20" barrel. Final score: B (Good).

Remington Model 798, .30-06 Spfd.

This is a classy but standard grade combination deer/elk rifle. By which we mean that it is a superior barreled action in a utilitarian stock. The famous Mauser 98 action, on which this import is based, is the seminal "fully developed" bolt action. It locks by means of two front locking lugs and cocks on opening, which requires a conventional 90 degree bolt rotation. Other features include a full length extractor for controlled feed, receiver mounted ejector, adjustable trigger, hinged magazine floorplate, and all steel construction. This 798 wears a Leupold VX-I 2-7x33mm scope and has a "clean" 24" barrel (no iron sights).

The Model 798 is available in elk hunting and combination CXP2/CXP3 calibers that include .270 Win., 7mm Rem. Mag., .308 Win., .30-06, and .300 Win. Magnum. It features a 24" barrel for full velocity and a brown laminated hardwood stock with a moderate Monte Carlo comb that looks nearly identical to that on late model Model 700 ADL rifles. This stock handles recoil well, a good thing since these are powerful calibers. For elk hunting with any .30-06 rifle a load using a 180 grain or heavier bullet is the usual choice.

The Remington Model 798 is not a compact rifle. It weights over 9 pounds with a scope and sling and measures 42.25" in overall length. For elk calibers, I would not want it lighter. Its weight and 24" barrel makes it very good for use on stand and when shooting over sticks or a rest.

The round bolt knob is flattened and checkered on the side facing the stock for extra clearance. The bolt knob is easy to grasp and equally easy on the hand when operated quickly, despite the checkering. The 798's two position sliding safety leaves the bolt unlocked when on, allowing the chambered cartridge to be removed with the safety on. This safety is relatively stiff and noisy when released, so do it cautiously.

The 798's Mauser pattern action features a large loading port and a hinged magazine floor plate. It is an easy rifle to load and unload when traveling from location to location.

This rifle was purchased as an all-around (CXP2 and CXP3 class game) rifle, a role that it fulfills nicely. Final score: C+ (Above Average).

Ruger No. 1B Standard Rifle, .270 Win.

This is the standard model among Ruger falling block, single shot rifles. It was purchased in .270 Winchester caliber as an all-around big game rifle for CXP2 and CXP3 class game. Its quality and workmanship are excellent, and this particular example has a nicely figured walnut stock.

The No. 1B comes with a 26" barrel and weighs about 9 1/4 pounds complete with a deluxe Weaver Grand Slam 3-10x scope, so it is no lightweight. In fact, it weighs approximately the same as the Weatherby Mark V. Like the Weatherby, it carries and handles better than its weight would suggest.

This is partly due to good ergonomics, in particular the flat, slender receiver without a protruding bolt handle. And it is partly the fact that the falling block action makes the No. 1 about 4 1/2 inches shorter than a standard length Ruger M77 bolt action rifle with the same length barrel. Even with its 26" barrel, the No. 1 is only 42 1/4" in overall length, about the same as a bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel.

Its flat receiver makes the No. 1B physically acceptable as the "ready" rifle in a vehicle, and its fast single cartridge loading means that it can be carried empty and still gotten into action with dispatch. You have to be mindful of its long barrel, however, when removing it from the vehicle.

The No. 1's simple, two position, sliding safety is mounted on the tang. This is the fastest and most convenient location for a safety.

Despite its heavier than average weight, the No. 1B is a good stalking rifle, comfortable to carry. Its short falling block action and flat receiver allow it to be comfortably carried slung over either shoulder, barrel down or up in most circumstances. Only its weight keeps it from scoring higher marks as a still hunting rifle to be carried long distances.

The 1B's weight, coupled with its 26" barrel and average overall length, makes it an excellent rifle for use from an impromptu rest, especially in a long range caliber like .270 Winchester. Other available elk calibers include .270 Wby. Mag., 7mm Rem. Mag, .30-06, .308 Win, .300 Win. Mag, .300 Wby. Mag. and .338 Win. Mag. The substantial weight and long barrel make the No. 1B exceptionally steady when fired from a rest or shooting sticks and the weight also helps to ameliorate the effects of recoil.

Selecting an all-around hunting rifle is always a matter of compromise. The result is never the best rifle for any single purpose (like elk hunting), but it should be acceptable for use on everything from small antelope to elk under a wide range of conditions. The No. 1B fulfills that mission. Final score: B- (Good).

Ruger No. 1-S Medium Sporter, 9.3x74R


This is the medium weight version of the Ruger No. 1 falling block, single shot rifle. It is quite similar to the No. 1-A Light Sporter except for a heavier contour barrel, which is required by its bigger bore cartridges. The Ruger No. 1's quality and workmanship are generally excellent and this particular Medium Sporter has an exceptionally attractive walnut stock.

The No. 1-S comes with a 22" barrel and weighs about nine pounds complete with a Weaver 1.5-4.5x Classic Extreme scope in Ruger rings. That is about the right weight for a rifle chambered for a cartridge as powerful as the 9.3x74R. Due to it's short overall length of just 38.25", it handles very quickly for a nine pound rifle. The No. 1-S is 4.5 inches shorter than a standard length Ruger M77 bolt action rifle with a 22" barrel, a tremendous advantage in the woods.

Its flat receiver sans bolt handle and short overall length makes the No. 1-S ideal as the "ready" rifle in a vehicle, easy to stow and fast to get into action. Its single cartridge loading means that it can be carried empty and still gotten into action with dispatch. The best of all possible worlds for a car rifle.

The Medium Sporter's simple, two position, sliding safety is mounted on the tang. This is the fastest and most convenient location for a safety.

The No. 1-S is a very good stalking (still hunting) rifle. Its short falling block action and flat receiver make it exceptionally comfortably to carry in the hand or slung over either shoulder, barrel down or up. This rifle's weight and 22" barrel also help to keep it steady when fired from shooting sticks or an impromptu stand.

Ruger No. 1-S rifles are chambered for only two cartridges, the 9.3x74R and .45-70. Both are classic old cartridges that are still going strong. Either is a good elk caliber within its MPBR, but the 9.3x74R is definitely the flatter shooting, harder hitting cartridge for use in an all-around medium bore rifle. That 9.3mm bullet measures .366" in diameter. In Africa, the reputation of the 9.3x74R even rivals that of the .375 H&H Magnum and it has been used for similar purposes for over 100 years. The most common 9.3x74R load for large game is a 286 grain bullet at a MV of 2360 fps with 3538 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. The maximum point blank range (+/- 3") is about 225 yards. Recoil is right up there, about like the .338 Win. Mag. in a rifle of the same weight, but noticeably less than the kick of a .375 Magnum.

The short, handy Ruger No. 1-S scored well as a still hunting rifle, weighs enough to be steady from a rest and proved to be the ideal "ready" rifle in a vehicle. Overall, it offers an excellent blend of features. The final score for the No. 1-S Medium Sporter is: A- (Excellent).

Ruger M77R Mk. II Standard, .350 Rem. Mag.


As its name indicates, this model is the standard version of the Ruger Model 77 Mk. II bolt action rifle. It comes with a blued barreled action and a classic style walnut stock. Iron sights are not included. Weight, with scope and mount, is about 8.5 pounds.

The overall quality and workmanship are good. Its short action and 22" barrel make it (and the Remington 673) the easiest carrying and fastest handling of the rifles in this comparison. Its Leupold VX-II 1-4x20mm scope has a tremendous field of view at the lower powers and is a good choice for hunting Roosevelt elk and other large game. Note that three of our elk rifles wear essentially the same model scope.

The conventional Mauser style action with its 90 degree bolt lift and smooth, round bolt knob is easy to operate. It is not as smooth as the Browning/FN and Weatherby Vanguard actions, but it is noticeably smoother to operate than the Remington 673. And unlike those actions, the Ruger features a full length Mauser-type extractor that takes a huge bite on the rim of the case for maximum extraction power. It also incorporates a fixed blade ejector that makes it possible to gently deposit the extracted case or cartridge in the hand. Just operate the bolt smartly to fling the fired case a good distance from the rifle.

The safety is a three-position type at the right rear of the receiver. The fully rearward position is "safe" and also locks the bolt closed, the intermediate position is for loading and unloading, and fully forward is "fire." The bolt release is conveniently located at the left rear of the receiver.

The Ruger's generous loading port and hinged magazine floorplate make it simple to load and unload, much like the Browning and Weatherby bolt rifles. This action clearly shows the influence of pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 and custom Mauser 98 rifles. The Ruger is, from a hunter's standpoint, one of the best designed bolt actions in this comparison.

The Ruger M77 Standard Rifle can be carried slung over either shoulder, barrel up or down, and gotten into action with dispatch. Its smooth 22" barrel does not tend catch on brush and allowed us to slip through heavy cover relatively easily. This rifle is about average to use from shooting sticks or a rest.

The .350 Rem. Mag. is an excellent elk cartridge. The Remington Express factory load with a 200 grain PSP Core-Lokt bullet that we used in this rifle will definitely get the job done if it finds a vital spot. The advertised ME of that load is 3419 ft. lbs.

Other potential elk cartridges available in the M77R include the .270 Win., .270 WSM, .280 Rem., 7mm WSM, 7mm SAUM, 7mm Rem. Mag., .308 Win., .30-06, .300 SAUM, .300 WSM, .300 Win. Mag., and .338 Win. Mag. Of these, the two medium bores are probably the most decisive elk cartridges. In either .338 or .350 Magnum the M77R is difficult to beat as a primary elk rifle.

The M77R's relative compactness makes it a little more convenient than the rifles with longer barrels when operating from the back of an SUV. The Ruger gets top marks for the ease with which a cartridge can be removed from the chamber and reinserted into the magazine. Then just press down the cartridges in the loaded magazine and close the bolt on the empty chamber and away you go. The only real drawback is its five pound (stock) lawyer inspired trigger. Final score: B (Good).

Weatherby Mark V Deluxe, .270 Wby. Mag.


The Weatherby Mark V Deluxe has been around for a long time and is billed as "the world's strongest bolt action" due to its massive one-piece bolt with 9 locking lugs. Its quality and workmanship are excellent. This particular .270 Wby. Mag. rifle wears a Nikon Buckmaster 3-9x scope and has a 26" barrel.

.270 Weatherby factory loads with 150 grain bullets boast a MV of 3245 fps, ME of 3507 ft. lbs., and a MPBR of 320 yards, making this the most potent long range rifle in our comparison. The Mark V Deluxe rifle is also available in Weatherby Magnum calibers from .257 to .460.

The Mark V Deluxe is a big rifle. It weighs about 9 1/2 pounds with scope and has an overall length of 46 5/8". But it is so well balanced that it feels smaller than it really is.

The pistol grip's slender wrist and the forearm's three dimension taper contribute to the this, while the cast-off designed into the buttstock makes it exceptionally fast to mount. Speed also carries over to the design of the action. The smooth, round bolt knob is easy to grasp and equally easy on the hand when operated quickly, unlike checkered bolt knobs. The ultra smooth Weatherby Mark V action, with its short 54 degree bolt lift, is just about the fastest bolt action on the market for repeat shots.

Weatherby's two position safety locks the bolt closed in the "safe" position, to prevent inadvertent opening of the action in the field. It is the quietest of all the bolt action rifles' safeties to release when the time comes to shoot.

Like the Vanguard, Browning/FN and Ruger M77, the Mark V action features a large loading port and a hinged magazine floor plate. It is an easy rifle to load and unload when traveling from location to location. The Mark V's plunger ejector throws fired brass well clear of the rifle when the bolt is pulled rearward.

The Weatherby Mark V is a surprisingly comfortable still hunting or stalking rifle, despite its 26" barrel and long action. Just keep the muzzle away from branches and out of the dirt. Its excellent accuracy, weight, and flat shooting cartridge make it among the best of the bunch for use on stand or when shooting from a rest.

The Mark V rifle is optimized for magnum cartridges and it is about as good as it gets for that purpose. Final score: C+ (Above Average).

Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe, 7mm Rem. Mag.

This magnum rifle is representative of combination deer/elk rifles. The Weatherby Vanguard has been around for a long time and its Howa bolt action is fully proven. This example is a VGX Deluxe model, and the quality and workmanship are excellent, similar to a Weatherby Mark V Deluxe. It wears a Weaver Grand Slam 3-10x40mm scope and has a 24" barrel without iron sights.

For elk hunting, a factory load or handload with a 154-160 grain bullet at a MV of about 2950-3000 fps is the usual recommendation. The MPBR of a Hornady 154 grain SP InterLock bullet at a MV of 3000 fps is 295 yards.

The Weatherby Vanguard Deluxe is a big rifle, similar in size to the the Weatherby Mark V Deluxe and Browning/FN Safari rifles. It weighs about 9 pounds with scope, but it is so well balanced that it feels smaller than it really is. It is noticeably less of a burden to carry than the Browning High Wall.

The pistol grip's slender wrist and the forearm's three dimension taper contribute to the rifle's excellent feel. The bolt knob is easy to grasp and equally easy on the hand when operated quickly, despite a ring of light checkering. The Vanguard's two position safety locks the bolt closed in the "safe" position, to prevent inadvertent opening of the action in the field. It is positive and easy to release when the time comes to shoot.

Like the Mark V, Kimber, Ruger M77 and Browning/FN, the Vanguard action features a large loading port and a hinged magazine floor plate. It is an easy rifle to load and unload when traveling from location to location. The Vanguard's plunger ejector throws cartridges forcefully from the chamber no matter how slowly the bolt is withdrawn. Plunger ejectors are, however, extremely reliable.

The 7mm Magnum cartridge burns a lot of powder, so it is not well adapted to rifles that are much lighter, or have barrels less than 24" in length. The Vanguard rifle was designed by Weatherby and incorporates many of the lessons learned in the development of the famous Mark V. The Weatherby stock design handles magnum recoil very well. This particular rifle was purchased in 7mm Magnum caliber as an all-around rifle. New Vanguard rifles are available in elk calibers from .270 Winchester to .338 Win. Mag., and at very economical prices.

The Vanguard is a surprisingly good still hunting or stalking rifle. This Weatherby's excellent accuracy, weight and flat shooting cartridge make it very good for shooting from a rest. Only its two locking lug action with the requisite 90 degree bolt rotation placed it below the slightly smoother and faster Weatherby Mark V. Final score: C (Average).

Winchester Model 70 Classic, .338 Win. Mag.

This rifle is the standard blue/walnut Model 70 Classic. In 2006, the last year it was offered, it was called the "Sporter," but the model name changed over the years. Whatever you call it, the Model 70 is one of the most famous bolt action hunting rifles of all time.

Its moderate weight (about 8.75 pounds with 3-9x40mm scope) and good balance allow it to handle and perform about as well as a .338 Magnum bolt action rifle can. Its well proportioned, classic style, pistol grip stock feels good and is easy to shoulder. However, it is still a big rifle, with a 26" barrel and an overall length of 46.75". The Model 70's quality and workmanship are good.

The Model 70 Sporter is not a great burden to carry on a long stalk, but you have to mind the long barrel. It is particularly well suited for use from a rest or shooting sticks.

The 26" barrel provides top ballistic performance with magnum cartridges; Model 70 Classic Sporter rifles chambered for standard calibers came with 24" barrels. The .338 Win. Mag. is about as good as it gets for shooting elk. The 225 grain Federal factory load for which this rifle is zeroed has a MV of 2780 fps, and ME of 3860 ft. lbs., making it suitable for hunting elk in dense woods and open spaces. Accuracy is very good, but recoil is heavy. The killing power is beyond question.

The Model 70 is built on a conventional Mauser pattern bolt action with two front locking lugs and a 90 degree bolt lift. The knurled ring around the Model 70's bolt knob does not abrade the hand when the bolt is operated swiftly.

The large opening in the Model 70's receiver when the bolt is drawn back makes loading cartridges into the magazine easy, and the hinged magazine floorplate makes unloading at the end of the day a snap. The controlled feed and fixed extractor also contribute to convenient unloading, as the bolt can be opened gently and the chambered cartridge deposited neatly to hand. The three position wing safety allows extra safe unloading. We are in and out of vehicles a lot, having to load and unload rifles, so these features are particularly appreciated, although this rifle's overall length is not. Final score: C (Average).

Winchester Model 70 Super Grade, .30-06 Spfd.

This rifle is the top of the line Super Grade, revised and re-introduced in 2008. Production rifles started reaching the retail dealers and the hands of shooters early in 2009. As mentioned previously, the Model 70 is one of the most famous bolt action hunting rifles of all time and this is its finest incarnation. In fact, the new Super Grade is probably the best Model 70 ever produced, given its improved MOA trigger mechanism.

It is not a lightwieght, weighing about 9.33 pounds with a Leupold VX-3 2.5-8x36mm scope and mount. On the other hand, the weight helps to control the recoil of heavy .30-06 loads. Good balance allows it to handle and perform about as well as a full size bolt action rifle can. Its well proportioned, classic style, pistol grip stock feels good and is easy to shoulder. However, it is still a big rifle, with a 24" barrel and an overall length of 44.5". The Model 70 Super Grade's quality and workmanship are very good in most areas and it will certainly draw attention in elk camp. (See the review on the Product Reviews page for details.)

The Model 70 Super Grade is not an excessive burden to carry on a long stalk, but you will probably notice the weight at the end of the day. On the other hand, when it comes time to shoot, the additional stability is welcome and it is particularly well suited for use from a rest or shooting sticks.

The 24" barrel provides catalog ballistics with .30-06 factory loads. The .30-06 has killed more elk than any other caliber and there can be no question about its effectivness with a well placed shot. Usually recommended are premium bullets from 165 grains on up, or standard bullet designs from 180-220 grains. The 180 grain Remington Express Core-Lokt PSP factory load for which this rifle is zeroed has a MV of 2700 fps and it shoots flat enough to be useful in practically any terrain. Accuracy is good and this load may well be the top elk harvester, in terms of popularity, on the planet.

The Model 70 is built on an improved Mauser action with two front locking lugs and a 90 degree bolt lift. The knurled ring around the Model 70's bolt knob does not abrade the hand when the bolt is operated swiftly. The new MOA trigger is very crisp, clean and fully user adjustable.

The large opening in the Model 70's receiver when the bolt is drawn back makes loading cartridges into the magazine quick and easy, while the hinged magazine floorplate makes unloading at the end of the day a snap. The controlled feed and fixed extractor also contribute to convenient unloading, as the bolt can be opened gently and the chambered cartridge deposited neatly to hand. The three position wing safety allows extra safe unloading. We are usually in and out of vehicles a lot, having to load and unload rifles, so these features are particularly appreciated.

Operationally, there is little difference between the new Super Grade and standard Model 70's, but the Super Grade is prettier, has neater sling swivel studs (the recessed kind) and we prefer its MOA trigger and 24" barrel. Final score: C+ (Above average).

Conclusion

While there are no absolutely perfect elk rifles, some came closer than others. All of the rifles listed here are at least satisfactory if used within the capability of their cartridge and most can be had chambered for a variety of cartridges. We could not hunt with every make and model of rifle, but we have managed to hunt with autoloading, single shot, lever and bolt action rifles. Calibers included .27, .28, .30, .33, .35, .36 and .45.
 
WHAT IS A GOOD ELK RIFLE?
obviously the questions similar to what type of girl makes the best wife!, a lot depends on what your looking for in the application, durability and cost youll incur plus theres factors you may not originally consider important.
the truth is that being a skilled & experienced ELK HUNTER makes far more difference that the rifle being used.
but because Ive hunted ELK for over 40 plus years Ive got some preferences, and a good deal depends on the area Ill hunt that day
THIS IS A PICTURE OF THE AREA I HUNT FREQUENTLY FOR ELK
deepcreek.JPG

LOWER CANYON
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upper canyon
canyon country is frequently inter-spaced between slopes thus youll generally be forced to cross a few of these rapidly flowing streams , some are easily forded, some a respectable barrier, and you can bet your last dollar the elk will know where few hunters will bother to access.
canyonfal.jpg


pert1.jpg

this is what much of elk hunting areas look like
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this is what THE FAIRLY RARE OPEN AREAS of elk hunting canyons look like, logging road access to some previous clear cuts ??
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high quality scopes, proper install procedures and the better quality scope mounts goes a long way toward reducing problems
you don,t need to buy the most expensive mounts or rings but a decent quality mount is critical.

IVE never yet had a properly installed weaver style base and rings fail

https://shop.brownells.com/optics/r...MI-fyIgLi12QIVmbXACh3gcQOeEAQYASABEgJTs_D_BwE
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p_100013148_3.jpg

https://shop.brownells.com/optics-m...MI-fyIgLi12QIVmbXACh3gcQOeEAQYASABEgJTs_D_BwE

Ive seen lots of cheap mounts fail


remington_7600_wood.jpg

blood.jpg

Ive got four favorites
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340 wby
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Ive owned and hunted with a sako manlicher carbine in caliber 375 H&H for 35 plus years, mine looks very similar to this but mines darker walnut wood.
be aware the wood forward of the barrel band needs to be epoxy bedded to the main stock or it will move forward under repeat recoil.
I cut two parallel grooves inside my front stock extending about 3" in both directions and carefully fitted two 6" long 3/16" thread rods and bedding epoxy, into the grooves, this cured that issue.
if you had a chance to buy a carbine like that Id say jump on it , I paid nearly $1000 for mine decades ago.
and yes both bullet weights work but the 270 grains seem to work better

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... le&Source=
Ive found both 235grain and 270 grain bullets and WW760 with a 215 fed primer works well as an elk hunting load

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_exforelk_200908/

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212471

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212472

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375 H&H
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450 MARLIN
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35 whelen


I have been working up loads for my 450 marlin,BLR, now obviously my hand loads may or may not be safe or shoot great in your rifle, but I tried IMR 3031 and worked up to 2 grains under the hottest load listed in my loading manuals, and I used a 405 Remington bullet over a 215 federal primer
and I was shooting off a solid sand bag rested rifle,with a 4x scope.
the first three shots at 50 yards basically went thru the same hole, I moved the target out to 100 yards and had 4 shots clover leafed and one about 1/2" outside the group, at 200 yards I can just make out the 1" orange dot ,the rifle shot a 1.5" 5 shot group,I could hardly believe it so I fired a second group, this time 5 shots off the bench at 200 yards went into just under 1.7", darn I was happy as I could be.
Im not sure of the velocity, but suspect its in the 1800fps range, but accuracy was real impressive



I don,t see why this 450 marlin cartridge is mot hugely popular,its got excellent penetration & knock down potential,on big game in the timber, I think theres far too many gun rag authors promoting the myth that everyone ABSOLUTELY needs a rifle that shoots out flat as a lazer well past 300 yards and while I do usually carry a 340wby on most hunts thats almost fitting that trajectory profile, I can easily count the elk Ive shot at over 350 yards in the last 40 plus years on one hand making a rather rude gesture, the fact is at least for the areas Ive hunted,I could just as easily have used a 450 marlin or a 35 whelen and killed every elk almost every year Ive hunted and that includes much of Colorado some of N.W.Wyoming and some of Oregon, that you seldom see a decent elk during hunting season standing out in open fields, almost every elk Ive shot was either walking thru a timber or brush covered canyon or crossing a small opening between aspen or oak brush or conifers , now I may have been on the opposite slope so I was 100-250 yards distant , but in many cases I was much closer when I got a shot.
my late hunting partner used a 358 win in a BLR for 30 plus years and I don,t ever remember it being a handcap


COMMENTS?
 
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does anyone think they would be significantly hampered on ELK HUNTS if , they were limited to using a rifle chambered for a non-magnum like a 270 win,30/06 or 35 whelen?

I was at the range this morning and listening to several guys on the next few benches discuss their choices in ELK hunting rifles and both of the old guys I went with were almost giggling from listening too the lack of experience, if you listened to these guys you would have been almost convinced that anything less than a 7mm mag or 300 mag pushing a bullet weight less than 160 grains would bounce off elk after the range exceeded 150 yards MAX!
and the thought of not using a 3x9x or higher power adjustable scope seemed to be about as popular as hunting naked and bare foot in field of huge cactus during a snow storm, I could not take it after awhile and just had to ask, how many ELK hunts these guys had been on...out of four guys two had been on one guided hunt EACH! and one guy had been twice.
between the two guys I went to the range with and myself we have easily exceeded 80 out of state elk hunts, and the longer we old geezers hunt the more popular the moderate calibers like the 30/06, 35 whelen and even the 358 win, and the 2x 7x or strait 4x scopes, seem to be in camp.
I know its not a popular thing to point out, but,its become very clear over the years that its not usually equipment that matters nearly as much as its the skill of the guy using it and his understanding of its limitations and advantages, and his understanding of the game and terrain, and tactics
now a rifle chambered in 7mm mag or a 300 mag can be an excellent choice but not having access to one, in those calibers is hardly the limitation some guys seem to think it might be and Id bet in some cases its more of a detriment than a help

Ive carried a 340 wby or a 375 H&H on many ELK hunting, trips,and those work great!
so Its not like I think that magnums don,t work well, its just that its become very obvious that they are not the only ticket to success, nor are they REQUIRED most of the time, to kill ELK, like some of the magazine articles seem to imply.
when I started hunting ELK many of the guys with experience swore the slide action Remington 30/06 was about the best possible choice, light weight, dependable, accurate , reasonably priced etc., when the 35 whelen version became available almost all the guys bought those, or a 358 win BLR, after seeing the results the first few guys had with those rifles. but being young, (40 plus years ago) I just knew that a serious magnum was going to improve my chances, and while it certainly did seem to get an ELKs full attention and drop them a bit faster, I eventually realized that the old geezer mentors were simply pointing out the obvious fact that any well hit ELK with a 30/06 or 35 whelen, or 358 win was just as dead as one hit with my super zapper magnum, and the non-magnums cost less, kicked less and tended to be lighter and shorter and easier to carry...I took years, but eventually even the younger guys come around to facing facts, and the facts seem to be that its not the rifle or caliber as much as the guy using its skill level that determines success.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/some-higher-quality-scopes.12533/#post-70321
 
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now i must mention recoil, light rifles tend to have more effective recoil, thats just physics, I can,t believe how many guys seem to have problems with the rifles they have selected to hunt with recoil levels,I can,t really see the need for a caliber larger than a properly loaded 30/06 for elk,especially if your intimidated by the recoil level you need to use a lower recoil, less abusive rifle, or use the accessories to reduce the felt recoil levels, now Im very familiar with guys that can,t handle recoil,I see that frequently and its been my experience its mostly the result of guys that don,t shoot enough or have never been trained in the proper use of a sling ,or guys that are using to high of a scope magnification, or guys that spend 90% of their time shooting off a bench rest at 100 yard targets who spend far too little time shooting from a sitting or off hand field position or or guys that think a bi-pod and properly used sling,or using a magnum recoil pad on rifles,makes them look silly.
all it takes is a scope without enough eye relief distance, and getting weatherby eyebrow to give most guys a good flinch, my late hunting partner constantly joked about my 340 wby and 375 H&H, which Ive used for years, he used a 358 win in a BLR and he was scared to shoot my 375H&H , until I let him try it after I made him use the padded shooting vest, bi-pod and sling, you could see the apprehension, on the first shot, but after that he found that the proper accessories, a bit of coaching, and the sling made a huge difference in reducing recoil.
its been my experience that its flinching and not shooting well is mostly lack of proper equipment and training, now both noise and recoil that causes flinching, but if your willing to go to a decent range about twice a month and practice, with proper equipment and for many guys that a bi-pod and a padded shooting vest, because use of a padded shooting vest and a sling and bi-pod and some training goes a very long way to cure the problem


http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0094330110

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... u=000531AH

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0678544052
 
what is it with all the guys that are fixated on bolt guns?
now please don,t think Im suggesting the bolt action is not a fine choice too hunt with, but its hardly the only choice, I had one of the guys I hunt with ask me why I hunt elk with a bolt action WBY 340, but at times hes seen me use a remington 35 whelen pump and hes seen me use a browning BLR in 450 marlin and a RUGER #1 falling block in caliber 300 wby. his close friend who,s made several trips out west with me hunting, just grinned and said, that he used to think the same way until he saw that 35 whelen pump gun used at a range in Colorado knocking beer cans and rocks off the rail road tie they were sitting on on the backstop berm, consistently from 300 yards

the simple answer is that I like them all and like golf clubs theres certain applications where a certain rifle just works better. he stared at me and said, "but only the bolt actions going to be really accurate"
he could not figure out why I was laughing so I showed him a target that had 3 shots almost touching in a group that was about 3/4" Id shot at 150 yards with my 358 win BLR off the bench, now obviously groups shot off the bench don,t reflect field accuracy but the rifles certainly able to hit an elk consistently if I do my part, and from what I see in the field, I could hand that same rifle and ammo to most guys and many would have great difficulty maintaining a 6" group at 100 yards in the field so its not the rifle that lacks accuracy potential.
 
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I just can,t see why the 450 marlin caliber is not more popular,as a dark timber elk rifle.
IM growing very fond of mine after several months of range time, so fond I sold my old 45/70 thats been used for decades, and accounted for several elk, with zero worry that the 450 marlin blr won,t prove to be its equal or superior.
yes IM a gun loonie and yes I spend a great deal of time at the range, in fact I try to go at least twice a month minimum.
look the 450 marlin BLR is basically a lever action rifle cartridge that provides the user with awesome power levels in a fast repeat action with a reasonable trajectory that will handle anything in big game hunting out to about 250-300 yards in skilled hands and easily 70%-80% or more of ALL big games killed at less distance, load this cartridge up with hard cast bullets in the 350-400 grain weight range and you duplicate some of the hot loads that most guys use in modern 45/70s, accuracy's usually very good, penetration and stopping powers great, so whats not to like here? yes IM aware that the 450 marlins basically a duplicate of the 45/70 with hot hand loads,thats basically true, but the fact remains that the browning BLR is a stronger locking bolt system than a marlin and the 450 marlin caliber is available in a BLR while the 45/70 is not!
now Ive owned both and still own the 450 marlin BLR, the BLR is a GREAT choice in my opinion, and getting 1900 fps form a 400 grain hard cast slug in a BLR is just not that difficult and makes it a really effective ELK rifle for the thick timber, Ive used the 45/70 to kill ELK and the 450 marlin is SLIGHTLY superior in my opinion in both accuracy and speed of hitting the target (ease of handling) I know its going as my back-up thick timber rifle next year.
its been many years since Ive killed an elk at ranges over 250 yards so its not likely the trajectory is to be a handy-cap in any place I hunt
YES IM AWARE THE 7MM MAG AND 300 MAG GUYS MIGHT BE HAVING A CONNIPTION FIT, but the truth is wither they admit it or not that 250-300 yards is about the max range most games shot at.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3...e-scope-30mm-tube-5-20x-50mm-side-focus-matte
the BLR has front dual cam locking bolt similar to any normal bolt action vs the marlins rear locking single locking lug

The BLR is not really a lever action. It might be described as a bolt action operated with a lever. The fore section of the bolt rotates and locks as a bolt action would. Some would say this system makes the action stronger than Marlin,
the best load IVE found so far in my BLR is 50 grains of IMR 3031 over a 215 federal primer and using a 405 rem bullet, off a good rest, and firing slowly with a 4x scope I've found 1" 3 shot hundred yard groups are usually easy.
now to be totally honest recoil is similar too my 375 H&H carbine but its not really objectionable in my opinion, and no its not the ideal universal elk rifle, but youll have a hard time finding something better for still hunting the lodge pole and conifer covered canyon slopes where seeing anything much past 100-150 yards is rare


http://www.gunwalker.com/450marlin/handloading.html
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After the first weekend of elk hunting where I generally use my 340 wby, and hunt as a team member where I usually watch for other hunters to push elk past me in some remote typographical choke point,I generally base camp out of a parked truck and spend 3-4 days at a time back packing into areas I hunt elk in so Im not forced to travel a great deal most days from where I sleep to where Im hunting ,I generally camp where ever I am when it gets dark,but to be successful at hunting this way requires cold camping and minimal influence on the area naturally ,so I must carry everything with me into an area and keep things as light and low bulk as possible. for years I carried a 35 whelen or 30/06 remington slide action or on some trips a 44 mag lever gun, ranges tend to be under 100 yards because I tend to hunt small steep side canyons and its rare to see other hunters.
the last trip I made I carried a ruger #1 light sporter in 270 win with peep sites
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its a great choice in my opinion, for that application. now I got asked several times why I didn,t just carry a 44 mag or similar revolver, well revolvers are great but Ive seen far to many nice elk out at 150-200 yard ranges to ever consider a revolver as a primary hunting weapon for elk, and while Id have zero problem using a revolver at 100 yards or less Im not going to hunt with only a revolver or carry two firearms while back-packing and hunting in some of the steepest country imaginable, miles into some remote canyon .

well what do you guys use?
 
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I just got off the phone with Jack, and he was telling me about a recent hunt , on a private ranch here in florida. and a minor screw-up,he was forced to admit he made.
Jack and I have been on several dozen hunts over the years and we constantly kid each other on the mistakes each of us make!
as most of the guys I hunt with have gained experience the need, or lack of need, to select a rifle that reaches out past about 350 yards has become rather obvious since its been decades since any of us have seen a shot taken over 350 yards at game, and Id bet the average distance is well under 150 yards.
as most of my friends got more experience the rifles they select to use has tended to be those that are heavier in caliber's (.338-458) rather than the (2.77-3.08)calibers which most of us started out with ,which over the years I think most of us feel works better, as a second shot was looked at as far less necessary , and selecting a rifle that could rapidly fire a second shot has not been a big factor,as with practice even a falling block single shot can provide that in less than 2-3 seconds.
keep in mind I,m not suggesting a 270 or 30/06 won,t kill game with a single hit, they have for decades, many of us started out thinking we needed a flat trajectory,with bolt actions or semi autos, but now falling lock single shots, slide actions and lever actions are more common. and theres been a noticeable trend to the 33-37 caliber rifles. Jack, had gone on a hunt for hogs here in florida,where in most places they are considered a pest and can be shot year round on private land.
Jack brought his single shot Ruger tropical in caliber 458 win, on this hunt as he wanted to try out a heavy cast bullet under field conditions.
well, opening day,after an hours walk in the predawn, he found himself sitting on a fallen log where the guide suggested they watch a small clearing , as the sun broke the horizon and he could see where he was, that clearing was no more than 75 yards by about 120 yards so the longest potential shot might be 100 yards, and from where Jack sat and waited probably less, well, after about 45 minutes he saw a couple large hogs start feeding thru the brush on the far side of the clear area, he raised the rifle , took careful aim and slowly squeezed off, only to hear a loud snap but no shot!, opening the lever to replace the defective cartridge he found he had failed to insert one, he was hunting with an empty chamber!
keeping an eye on the hogs who were now looking in his direction but not yet quite sure what they heard, he slid a cartridge out of the stock cartridge holder and inserted it, closed the breach, and as he raise the rifle to aim, the hogs sighted the movement and scattered. he managed to get off a none- too well aimed shot,with the 530 grain hard cast bullet he had loaded, that hit one hog in the left ham, the bullet exited the right shoulder and instantly dropped the hog but made a real mess of the insides, limiting the useable meat recovered.there was little indication the bullet expanded as it was hard cast and only pushed to about 1600fps but the raking , full body length, length wise angle was not ideal for retaining the best meat cuts.
yet its performance was most impressive!
now obviously you don,t need a 458 win to hunt hogs but many guys enjoy hand loading and casting their own bullets and a 45 caliber rifle is ideal for that purpose.

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the butt stock cartridge sleeve that holds 8-9 cartridges is almost a mandatory accessory like a sling on most rifles in my opinion
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BobinNH said:
You mean some hunting shots are actually taken like that?
"from an off hand or quickly acquired sitting position?"

THANKS I NEEDED A GOOD HARD LAUGH!

I know all the cable shows have some guide looking through a spotting scope and telling the guided hunter to take his time while he makes a 600 yard shot from a rifle supported on a padded tri-pod ,out over a sage brush flat with all the time required and no trees in the way..... but in 45 years of hunting elk in the timber where Ive hunted , your far more likely to have spent two-to-four days hunting public land, a few miles down in some remote canyon, your either freezing your butt off or nearly exhausted from moving slowly and concentrating on every movement at the far edge of your visual range, and your slowly sneaking along some steep timbered drainage, moving intermittently, then standing and observing carefully without seeing a decent elk, when out at the edge of your vision you detect movement, a line a shape materialized through the timber out at 70-130 yards, you barely make out antlers as the elk stares in your direction,your heart beat doubles, you bring up the rifle ,you look for a branch to use to steady your carbines aim, and about that time a cow you just noticed gets nervous and the bull, starts to fidget,you now have 3-5 seconds ,if your lucky,to make up your mind, if the targets legal, if the range and angle is something you can work with, all while your finding theres a gap through the trees that will allow the shot, and you then get the rifle sights properly lined up and squeeze off the shot, as the elk decides the next drainage looks like a better location.!
the ELK whirls,too run as you squeeze off the shot, and your not 100% sure you connected, your heart beat doubles again, while your buddy assures you that your 340 wby, or 375 H&H did its job... you try to catch your breath, and your heartbeat and increased blood pressure is making you a bit dizzy, you put on the rifles safety without ejecting the empty case...you walk to the bullet impact site, as your buddy assures you the shot you made was great, and you find blood spray on the aspens or conifers..or on the snow, just past the elks former location.....WHERES THE TRACKS? WHERES THE ELK? ....the elk fell within two steps and slid 20 yards down the slope and is jammed up against some small trees, in the least accessible area you found in days....THATS MORE REALITY TO ME!
and the areas pictured below familiar


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I received a brief e-mail asking why I seem to be promoting the 450 marlin BLR
Im not promoting any caliber or action type, simply pointing out what I see rather frequently, used.
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one of my close hunting partners for 3 decades carried almost nothing but a pre 1981 BLR in caliber 358 win, he was quite successful,
enough so that I purchased a post 1981 BLR, in caliber 358 win and later one in caliber 450 marlin,
both are very dependable hunting rifles, that Id carry with zero reservations,
as both consistently are fully able to shoot 1.5" 100 yard three shot groups off the bench rest.
and yes the function and triggers improve as they get a bit of wear and you become more familiar with their use.
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having TOTAL confidence in the rifle and cartridge you use is a HUGE factor in making you both enjoy and not worry about your potential success.
I have guys bring up questions , concerning the suitability , range limitations and other factors,that many guys bring up concerning the rifles they select to hunt with,
its been my experience that most of the guys who might stay up nights worrying about their rifle or cartridges potential ability to kill at extended ranges ,
or might worry about the rifle they use, suitability, lack of rapid repeat fire potential, range limitations, or potential lack of lethality,
well, many of the same guys both lack extensive field experience and hands on practice, once you've made a few dozen hunts,
and got in some actual experience,,the concerns over your personal choice in equipment selected seems to fade, or changes get made.
my late hunting partner came to love and depend on a browning BLR in caliber 358 win, for both ELK and mule deer,on several occasions we had new guys in the club ,
ask him if he felt he was at a distinct disadvantage, after all if he sighted the rifle in using the load he came to depend on (44 grains of imr 4064 under a 250 speer bullet)
it was, 3.5" high at 100 yards, dead on at 200 yards and about 10 inches low at 300 yards (certainly a 270 win or 30/06 Springfield, shoots flatter,)
at first that question bothered him a bit, but after hunting for 30 plus years he would just smile,
and point out that he had never once even seen any elk out past about 250 yards, thus the concern over flat trajectory was a non-issue in his experience.
and the lethality of that BLR in his hands was well documented.
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A 35 whelen slide action Remington with peep sights or a 2x/7x Leopold compact scope is a very popular choice with my friends
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\
while this is NOT my 375 H&H sako carbine, in the picture posted above, My SAKO CARBINE is almost an exact clone except, that my stocks about 5 shades darker, so its about as dark as walnut gets.
I found this picture posted on the internet, it could be a clone of the sako carbine Ive used for decades, if the stock color was about 6 shades darker walnut ,
mines about the color of a semi sweet dark chocolate
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MY 375 H&H sakos claimed its share of ELK
heres a basic fact...I get asked frequently why I prefer the 33-45 caliber rifles
Ive had a lot more guys in camp using .338-.375 bullets in the 250-300 grain range leave exit wounds on ELK than the .257-.308 cals in the 100-150 grain range and while good hits from either result in dead ELK, I can,t believe anyone thinks the larger calibers don,t hit harder and do more damage with similar bullet designs.
I sure noticed a difference in how fast ELK dropped when swapping from a 30/06 to a 340 wby!(notice I didn,t say it killed better, but it sure tends to get a more noticeable reaction on bullet impact)
I think we are discussing this ONLY because ELK don,t generally get VINDICTIVE, and immediately seak out and KILL hunters when wounded, if they tended to react like cape buffalo or lion do at times I doubt we would be even thinking about using the lighter calibers. ITS only because ELK tend to run off and drop dead rather than charge IMPALE and shred their tormentors with those large pointed racks, when wounded that makes this even a subject too discuss!

one of my friends refers to this as the bucket theory" you can shoot a 5 gallon steel bucket full of water with a 22 hornet or a 458 win and the water(life) will still all drain out, the difference is only in the exit wound and time it takes for the water to drain, either gets the job done if draining the water is the only goal."
Id also point out, that in the real world I see, a good deal of the effectiveness of a firearm ,in any hunters hands will be related too the familiarity he has with it,and the amount of previous practice and confidence he has with that firearm.
As Ive stated in other threads I started my elk hunting experience using a 30/06 760 slide action, it killed every elk I shot ,lethality was never an issue, but I had little confidence in that rifle because the first few elk I shot ran after being hit (and hit well at fairly short distances BTW) being young I just KNEW I needed a bigger caliber and bought a 340 wby, I practiced extensively and hand load, and while the recoil had increased it was never a personal issue I considered objectionable.
Your obviously going to ask?
Did things improve?
well it depended on what your looking at,the next couple Elk I hit with the 340wby loaded with a 250 hornady sure reacted differently, most acted stunned, or staggered then fell, rather than running and falling like they did with the 30/06, but from a pragmatic view, a single shot from either rifle resulted in a dead elk rather rapidly.
I tend to TRUST the 33-45 caliber rifles loaded with 250 or heavier projectile,so thats what I carry my late hunting partner rarely carried anything but a 358 win BLR, and he killed 16 elk over 37 years we hunted together before he passed, so power is secondary to the CONFIDENCE YOU HAVE IN YOUR EQUIPMENT, and I could no more select the correct rifle for you than a wife or truck you want!
ATTITUDE AND PERSISTENCE TEND TO PAY OFF.
getting in better shape is damn near mandatory,I try, but at 67 its not easy, like it used to be from 18 years-50 years old or so, but like I stated I must have a bit of a masochistic streak, because I almost always spend the first day in the hunt area with a my-grain headache induced by both altitude and my marginal high blood pressure. yet I refuse to let that get me down, Ive learned to lie around while my body compensates and acclimates, to the altitude change, drink lots of warm tea, gator-aid and take a few aspirin every 4-5 hours , checking into a motel, a few thousand feet lower altitude, or just setting up camp and sleeping after getting into camp a couple days prior to opening day helps.
learning to read a topo map and anticipate elk movement away from easy access helps
keep in mind while hunting your on your own time schedule, making it too some intended remote canyon on your topo map,may take you 1-3 hours, just take the trip into and especially out if you have a heavy pack, at your own steady pace.
you might be amazed at how often youll find you see game while your doing the slow, stop and scan 360 degrees, while your resting while covering ground.(btw try too lean on a tree and stay in the shade while you can, and carry enough water..)
 
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Hey Grumpy not about Elk hunting but I was invited to go black bear hunting in the Pa. mountains I never hunted bear & was wondering what gun to use I was going to buy a new Tikka .338 or a Tikka 300 WSM but I won't be able to buy a more powerful gun until after X-Mas & I don't want a wounded pissed off bear on the loose I have a few choices the 2 main ones & the better ones with the better scopes are a 30.06 & a 308 Win. I also have a 300 Savage & a 30-30 to choose from both are scoped but are cheaper scopes what gun would you use for bear hunting PS I like the 308 because it is a compact model & would be easier to carry through the woods if I am walking around
 
the 308 with a good 180 grain soft point is all thats required for ANY black bear I would be looking for a decent 2x7x scope rather than a new rifle

high quality scopes, (Leopold, Nikon, Zeiss, Steiner ) proper install procedures and the better quality scope mounts goes a long way toward reducing problems
you don,t need to buy the most expensive mounts or rings but a decent quality mount is critical.
IVE never yet had a properly installed weaver style base and rings fail, loc-tite on clean de-greased, and properly tightened, screw threads helps
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https://shop.brownells.com/optics/r...MI-fyIgLi12QIVmbXACh3gcQOeEAQYASABEgJTs_D_BwE
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https://shop.brownells.com/optics-m...MI-fyIgLi12QIVmbXACh3gcQOeEAQYASABEgJTs_D_BwE
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...head-scope-ring-base-screw-kit-prod41830.aspx
torx head screws tend to be better strength and quality,
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Ive seen lots of cheap mounts fail
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/237915/leupold-vx-ii-rifle-scope-2-7x-33mm-duplex-reticle-matte
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http://www.midwayusa.com/product/17...308-winchester-180-grain-soft-point-box-of-20

http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-Power-Shok-308-150-Grain-Soft-Point-bulk-p/fed308b.htm
 
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I just put a Leupold VX2 3x9 on it for deer hunting & I have Remington Core Loct 180 grain shells I got for deer season the bear hunting came up all of a sudden & I won't pass up a chance to go hunting
 
looks like your all set to go, did you read through this thread?

If I was in the market for a dedicated black bear rifle I know from my old hunting partners experience that the 250 gain speer bullet in a browning BLR in caliber 358 win with 44 grains of imr 4064 dos a spectacularly effective job, and my uncle spent his entire hunting career using a marlin 45/70 lever action, he used a 405 grain remington bullet over 45 grains of imr 4895
Ron used the 358 win
most black bear are shot at reasonably close range and accuracy and dependable deep penetration are required traits in a useful caliber , you don,t need, excessive velocity, the standard plain old 308 win and 30/06 and 8mm and 7mm mauser still work just fine

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=358 Winchester&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...-70&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source

http://www.chuckhawks.com/358Win_mystery.htm

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-practice-shooting-from-field-positions.9380/

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I have been looking at Tikka rifles lately I don't know why I'm so fixed on a Tikka I do know they are good rifles I did shoot a buck a few years back with a Tikka 7MM-08 it dropped on the spot at around 150 yards. I was thinking of a 300 WSM or a .338. I will see how bear hunting works out & what the area is like before I decide A couple years ago I was looking at a .458 until I saw the price on ammo for it $141.00 for a 20 round box that changed my opinion quick because I like to shoot too much I'd go broke. But I would prefer a bigger caliber rifle to go bear hunting & I'm sure the guns I have now will do the trick but its a damn good excuse to buy a new rifle & one that even the woman fell for
 
first ID point out that hand loading the 458 caliber rifles is not only easy but you don,t need a 458 win, with cast hand loads a very effective hand load cartridge can be loaded for under a dollar a shot. bullets can be cast from wheel weights, brass cost just over a dollar a case but can be reused a dozen times, the 45/70 450 marlin and 458 win can all push a 350-400 grain hard cast bullt fast enough to punch through a large elk or bear at 100 plus yards very easily
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...-Winchester-Mag-Unprimed-Rifle-Brass-50-Count
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
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the browning BLR is available in caliber 450 marlin
Ive shot completely through elk that easily weighted 50%-100% more than most black bear, several times in the past using hard cast 45/70 loads that were weaker than the 450 marlin loads
brass just under a dollar a case
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000038693/450-Marlin-Unprimed-Rifle-Brass-50-Count
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http://www.realguns.com/loads/450marlin.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.450+Marlin.html

http://speer-bullets.com/pdf/ReloadingSupplementalDATA/450MARLN.PDF
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?fid=003B&cid=034&tid=006

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-458-caliber-rifles.4672/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...i-hunt-the-more-i-like-the-33-38-45-cal.2846/
 
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Grumpy I just went out & bought a Tikka 300 Win Mag I am looking at scopes. You recommended a 2x 7 for a 308 a couple posts ago do you think this is a good power to go with? Most of my guns have 3 x 9 on them. Where I deer hunt I can't see getting a shot over 100 yds. & more than likely less than that if I'm in my stand. But there is always a possibility of a very long shot pretty much as far as you can see in the low area if I'm walking. I was looking at a Redfield 2.5 x 10 x40 what scope would you go for I want to keep the price around $300.00
 
the QUALITY of the optics is far more important that the magnification, when I first started out I had a 4x 12 redfield I picked up cheap at a gunshop sale on a 30/o6 remington, I quickly realized it was a mistake, as it was longer and heavier than needed and the optics were far from ideal.
as I gained experience I found leopold, burris and a few others in a 2x - 7x like this fully adequate
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...man-2-7x33mm-Wide-Duplex-Reticle-Matte-Finish
theres a strong tendency to confuse target shooting with hunting accuracy requirements and they are totally different conditions, while at the range your probably trying to see a 1" dot at 100 yards or a sub 30 caliber hole in paper at 100 yards, in good light at mid day, this is not needed or realistic in a hunting rifle, while its great at the range , a hunting rifle should be far more concerned with easily finding the cross hairs in dim light on a moving animal and allowing you to place your shots consistently, and that takes practice, and a bright & clear consistent sight picture.
yeah, you probably don,t know the difference yet,
wait untill it starts to get dark, look out to the west , where the suns setting, some evening, put a scope on 2x on your rifle and step out on the back porch and try to keep the cross hairs of your current scope centered on a flying bird at 200 yards, now spin the dial up to 7x and try the same deal over again, probably not a huge difference, now repeat the process at 50 yards, and youll find out why you don,t want to jump an elk using a high power magnification scope, in dim light.
and yeah! your more likely to jump some deer or elk at first or last light or in a drizzling rain , or in heavy shade, snow, heavy wind, than under a ,calm bright mid day sun

closely related
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-practice-shooting-from-field-positions.9380/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...nt-perspective-on-ideal-hunting-rifles.11928/
 
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