when is your car fast ENOUGHT?

grumpyvette

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
we all seem to be on a constant quest to make our cars faster,
now having been this route over and over for fifty plus years,
and with many cars, and dozens of engines ETC.
and having spent a small fortune on cars and engines over the years,
it EVENTUALLY sinks in that YOU'LL NEVER have the fastest car around,
mostly because none of us has an unlimited bank balance , we can constantly draw from,
and the time required to build and maintain the car.
and you only get to ENJOY your car when its running correctly.
this is based on the obvious fact you can,t afford ,
to buy and test every idea and part available,
a team of top engineers and mechanics ,
and all the best exotic parts and machine work.
So, whats a realistic goal,
whats IMPRESSIVE to you?
and what will make YOU happy?
you can build a damn nice 10 or 11 second car,
that can be driven on the street.
now I sat down and spent some time thinking this thru, thinking about what it takes,
to have a good car, and for ME its not all about speed or E.T.,
Ive owned a very low 10 second corvette,and a low 10 second camaro,
Ive had several 11 second cars,
but the cars Ive enjoyed the most were the ones I got to drive on the street,
with both performance and DARN FEW PROBLEMS,
The CARS I really enjoyed were those that while faster than average,
and had few problems.. were also cars that appeared to be nearly stock,
and didn,t attract a good bit of attention,
its just a P.I.T.A. to drive a car when your constantly needing to think about keeping the plugs from fouling or the local cops hearing it running,
or when every idiot teenager that sees the car wants you to race their 14 second Junker
or one thats about to get stolen if you park it, without constant supervision, ETC.
and when the local track requires a certified roll cage, trans blanket,
blow proof bell housings, and battery disconnects,
ETC. and you can't drive to the track, it fast becomes a P.I.T.A.
most of the cars I've really enjoyed driving were big block cars that would run in the low 12s or high 11 second range on street tires,
they could be driven on trips to the store, or on vacation,
, DEPENDABILITY was a HUGE PLUS,
what made them so great was that they were both dependable,
and faster than ALMOST all the cars they got to play with on the street,
you could EMBARRASS the local street screech ricers and mustang crowd, and there was little worry about breakage or problems, and you could park them without needing to watch them every second.
I just thought ID point that out for the newer guys here!
don't get so worried about running fast!
build your car so you can ENJOY it and DRIVE IT.
having 600-700 hp is nice, but nearly useless if you can,t go anywhere with the car............think it thru......you may really want 400-550 hp and a dependable car rather than a 600hp-900hp garage queen!
having a larger displacement engine generally means you can run with the engine slightly out of perfect tune and still have impressive performance,
as WITH most things a compromise needs to be struck,
but having a car you can enjoy on the street beats having a toy you can rarely get to drive,
and only at the track, in most cases.
WHEN YOU CAN,T DEPEND ON THE CAR TO JUMP INTO IT ANY TIME AND DRIVE IT ON A local 2-3 hour TRIP ITS BASICALLY NOT A STREET CAR

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Ive worked on hundreds of cars over the years and the trend seems to be that a skilled driver in a good ,well thought thru combo can have a relieable car in the high 11 second range,to the low 12s, but once you get into a much faster car the problems opperating it on the street multiply to the point where you don,t enjoy driving it and spend an enormous amount of time and money just maintaining it.
and a guy who knows how to tune/adjust,a large displacement big block or car with a power assist like a turbo, nitrous,or in some cases a supercharger makes the goal far easier because your engines not putting all its potential power out all the time at a given rpm range.
now I'm certainly not saying you can,t build a good 9-10 second combo, but its going to take a good deal of thought and an enormous amount of money if you want it reliable, and your driving & mechanical skills better be good:D
the one factor I didn,t touch on was power to weight ratio while its very unlikely you can do it starting with a nearly stock corvette due to the weight, the LIGHTER the WEIGHT the easier it is to ACCELERATE AND SLOW a car and the LESS STRESS the suspension and drive train will be under, so there ARE OPTIONS if you want a fast street car, but they may NOT be a corvette, there are some kit cars, t-buckets, etc. that can be built that weight easily a full 1000-1500 lbs less than a stock corvette, that will allow a 500hp engine to produce astounding performance.
maybe I'm just getting older and hopefully smarter, but after owning several cars that run low 10 second 1/4 mile times
Ive come to realize performance is mostly about how much money your willing to spend, how carefully you plan and carefully selecting the car and components, you can beat 90% of the street cars if your car can run true 12 second flat times in the 1/4 mile, once you get into the mid to low 11 second range you'll find the prices keep increasing rapidly and its a never ending bottomless money pit, with more and more regulation, track required equipment and less fun driving the car in most cases.
while its true that if you've got a large enough checking balance that you could build a street-able 11 or even a 10 second car, its, not really common to see one, because it is so expensive to do it correctly and it takes far more than a few bolt on mods from some catalog and a few weekends to build one!
If you can,t jump in, start it up and drive it or you require a car trailer to move it to where you can drive it ,chances are good that your spending far more money and having less fun as a result of your modifications, so think thru your goals

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/

http://robrobinette.com/et.htm
 
is power addictive?
yes it seems to be! if your still playing with 400hp sbc combos,just wait untill you eventually get a 477-540-572 BBC with decent compression and a roller valve train, once you start playing with 600-700 plus hp your wallet just cringes and wimpers and sobs but you smile at the total insanity of trying to go faster than 140mph plus in the 1/4 mile

NO! I don,t know whos car it is, but it sure brings back memories of my 1968 race vette....I only ran very low 10s at 135-137mph but it launched and sounded similar


http://challengevideos.com/video2.php?v ... Blue+Coupe

just click on the (download video)

many of you guys spend far to much time worrying more about paper hp and torque numbers vs the cars ability to be fun to drive and reasonably fast, if the car will run mid-low 12s at about 110mph and stop on a dime your far faster than most cars on the road, in a 3500 lb vette that takes about 380 rear wheel hp
heres some calculator links

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1814

I get guys in the shop all the time that think they want and need 550-600hp, what they really want is the ability to destroy rear tires at the flick of the throttle and to run mid 12s or slightly faster because that's all that's required to amaze and impress their friends 90% of the time.
any decently researched and built 383sbc or 396 BBC car produce those power numbers and performance matched to a 3000rpm stall converter and 3.73 rear gears
WHEN YOU CAN,T DEPEND ON THE CAR TO JUMP INTO IT ANY TIME AND DRIVE IT ON A COAST TO COAST TRIP ITS BASICALLY NOT A STREET CAR, so keep that in mind during the parts selection process if you depend on the car for transportation
 
grumpy, i can so appreciate your point.

my old 87 firebird ran 12.35s in PHX, could have been 11.99 with a little more tuning, but was docile and a total sleeper on the street ( oops, forgot the lope of the cam and the monster rear tire width)

i cannot tell you how many surprised and hurt wannabes were taken to school by that car. i only lost once on the street, to a 72 cougar that had procured a used roundy round motor , 351 cleveland, along with some 5 something rear gears.

also, i loved your linked blue corvette video . that thing sounded awesome and was really fun to watch launch!
 
IF your absolutely convinced you can,t live without owning a car that will both be street-able and still have it run in the 10 or 11 second range Id strongly suggest making life far easier on yourself and select a basically light weight car with a suspension built to be raced and stick the largest displacement engine you can afford in it from a major brand name (MOPAR,FORD,CHEVY,) so you don,t also need to go crazy sourcing engine and drive train components.

now obviously youve got dozens of options ,
but a COBRA KIT CAR or T-BUCKET with 470-540 cubic inches of high compression big block or a super charger or turbo assisted small block comes instantly to my mind,
because its a whole lot easier to get 2500-2800lbs of kit car into the 10 second range,
and make it handle well and stop effectively with a solid aftermarket frame, suspension and light weight body components,
than trying to push a 3600-3900lb street car that fast.
BTW NEWS FLASH! the vast majority of cars you see driven on the street will never run in the 10 second , 140 MPH or faster, range no mater what the owners ,in the local fast food parking lot might quote or brag about or what the dyno sheet, they have stuffed in the glove compartment says

427cobrakit.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/chalhome.html
gtm.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=3404&p=8992&hilit=making+your+fast#p8992
 
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I get asked all the time is certain mods are worth the expense?
will the changes make the car faster?
will the car be a P.I.T.A. to drive in traffic?
will the car tend to over-heat? etc. or if the changes are likely to reduce the cars dependability.
any experienced hot rodder will tell you that at some point the quest for more horse power is most likely going to effect the cars durability, and then at that point it becomes a weekend toy.
the truth here that's frequently ignored is that each modification will usually require matching modifications to maintain the cars drive-ability and dependability.
add that big lopey cam, and it won,t work correctly without matching mods like increased compression and larger port heads and a low restriction exhaust, and it tends to raise the effective rpm band.
raise the effective power band and you increase the need for a stiffer rear gear ratio, higher stall converter, to match that power and rpm band increase.
but that without question, increases the heat the drive train produces,and usually will require a better oil cooler, and larger radiator,and its the radiator and transmission cooler,thats frequently over-looked until the problem becomes more obvious,or dependability usually suffers.
in most case guys get so focused on increasing the horse power they forget or ignore the additional matching components that help cool and keep the engine and transmission cool and lubricated.
once you've got the extra power you'll usually need suspension mods to use the power, better/larger more efficient, brakes and a frame and body will generally require frame stiffeners, better engine mounts, better shocks,maybe a roll cage.

when do you reach that point, when you need to start thinking of the car as a complete package vs just adding minor mods???
Ive always said theres a darn simple test!
if you can jump into the car in question,with a couple suit cases, turn on the radio and air conditioning, and drive from lets say Miami to lets say phoenix ,(2400 miles) using standard pump octane fuel, with a couple rain storms along the way,without worrying much about getting there, without having to make repairs "its a street car" if you would be certifiable thinking you could make the trip, its no longer , at least in my opinion a "STREET CAR in the true sense"
but keep in mind a well though thru combo with matching components can easily have double or even triple the stock horse power or even more and still maintain that street car durability and ability to make those long trips, its just a matter of thinking things thru and choosing and correctly installing ALL the required components, and realizing that an engine that has the potential to make really impressive horse power at high rpms may rarely be required to run up into its max power band when used in a street car, so a good deal of thought as to the daily use and true average rpm levels should be considered

components like 8 quart oil pans, transmission fluid coolers,large efficient aluminum radiators,extra electric cooling fans, high volume water pumps, deep oil pans on the transmission, rear differential coolers, low restriction exhausts, frame stiffeners, roll cages, huge brakes,engine mounts,scatter shields, brake booster, bigger fuel lines and more effective fuel pressure regulators bigger fuel lines and fuel filters, comfortable seats, heat barriers in the firewall, dependable ignitions, mufflers that reduce the noise to a tolerable level, on long trips, and a few dozen other mods that may NOT SEEM SEXY,LIKE BIG PORT HEADS,RADICAL CAMS,SUPERCHARGERS,TURBOS,NITROUS,ETC. or any parts that don,t really INCREASE POWER, may not seem all that important,at first but in the long run those are the components that tend to MAKE OR BREAK the car, as a successful hot rod, or engine swap.

ID keep in mind that for most people you want to think through your choices,
Most of us don,t have nearly the cash flow to jump into projects without thinking through the options.
the lighter the car, weight, the LESS cash it will take to make the car perform,
the larger the displacement the engine is the less exotic and expensive the parts needed tend to be.
If you want the car too handle and brake efficiently, and your on a budget,
the lighter the car ,the less cash will be required to built an engine and suspension , brakes, cooling system etc.
a T-bucket or cobra replica , are good examples of light car projects,
you can easily have blistering fast acceleration ,great handling,
impressive braking with a 2400 lb car far cheaper,
than with a 4200 lb car...keep that in mind.
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=8379&p=29224&hilit=take+fast+ratio#p29224

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ocess-of-building-a-kit-car.15188/#post-86915

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/think-thru-your-goals.10606/#post-78961

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-engine-project-dart-shp.3814/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-custom-car-body-suppliers.11629/#post-70001

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-to-run-reasonably-fast-in-street-trim.3404/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/fabbing-custom-parts.11241/#post-50761

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-road-race-corvette-builds.12440/#post-62271
 
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Doodad said:
My car will be fast enough when I can pass the Space Shuttle.... :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Ummm, I think you are now faster than the space shuttle. ;)

Hmmmmm, I think I reached the point where my car is fast enough. It'll shred street tires at 60 mph... ;) Leaving me laughing like a mad man and wondering if my drawers are still clean.

Seriuosly, I realize that to go faster than this -low twelves- I'll need cubic dollars (or euros). Also, that would mean a rollcage and more if I want to continue participating in races. Right now, my pride is the fact that I have over 600 streetable HP... The idle has a slight lope and power comes on quickly and smoothly. I'm sure I could easily squeeze out closer to 700. When I go to a race, I throw a tent on the back seat, pack some hardware and drive... Currently, at the races I go to, I have the fastest street legal car. My immediate competitors have no tags and/or have been trailered over. I can take my ride anywhere and that's the way I want to keep it. As for ultra exotics on the street, even if they were faster, all the ones I have challenged had zero experience getting power to the ground and going. They never truly had to be competitive. I've never seen one dare show up at a race and risk put his money where his mouth and ego are.

Last week, I decided to go to France... I just hopped in the car and drove. Smooth ride. Soon I intend to participate in amateur rallies. Put the fear of chevy in those little lancias and MGs.

To conclude, I want to keep the car roughly the way it is (power-wise) and make it: a. Deadnuts reliable, b. Detailed and c. A corner carver. THAT would be a nice ride!!!!!!

D.
 
Fast enough is now at a whole different level than it was 10-20 years ago. Having said that, I never met a car that wouldn't improve with 50 more h.p. :mrgreen:
 
I think low 12's from a real street car is far more impressive than, some guy whose got a race car that can,t be used for daily transportation or trips that just happens to have license plates.
 
I find that fast enough is when my " hand and eye coordination" Can't communicate fast enough to keep up with the vehicle!
 
9- second car power for me.
On the streets actual times will be around 11.5 ET Street Outlaws.

Top End with highway gears 180-200 mph.
After that it gets scary fast.
Need 1 Super Race Rollcage & Full Drivers Halo bars around you !
 
Drag Radials tires and Racing slicks don't have speed ratings.

Just have to look at the Top racers have done.
It's 200+ mph now on 275 Mickey Thompson.
 
Interesting thread.
I believe the running point here is there is no simple point where it is fast enough.
We each need to make that assessment although I feel you need to remain true to your original goal... modifying your goal is often stupid expensive.$$$$.
Start with a modified factory car and suddenly try to push for the 10s is likely going to be a complete rework of a good car.
 
I don't think such an animal exists, we get to one point and we will want more! I call it work in process>
 
more and more I find the cars I miss the most were the big block cars ,that I built that were dependable and easy to drive,
my old 1968 corvette was darn fast but a P.I.T.A. due to several factors
(full roll cage, only two seats, 4.88:1 rear gears, no trunk, fuel injection stacks sticking out of the hood etc,)
MY corvette was dark maroon but it looked similar to this corvette with the crower injection sticking through the hood
wol_error.gif
This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.
78CrowerFI1.jpg

my 1965 lemans was a much more pleasant to drive and maintain car even if it was about a second slower

1965gtoside.jpg

this car looks vaguely similar, but lacks some of the rear fender opening and dana 60 rear differential mods

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-resulting-from-an-engine-swap.898/#post-3239

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-regret-selling-whats-yours.15912/#post-95697
 
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