why do so few use semi auto elk rifles?

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
why do so few use semi auto elk rifles?
niceelkq1.jpg

HERES A NICE ELK (no not one I shot but still nice) just one picture I thought was damn impressive

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/
bullelkp1.jpg

BIG%20BULLh.jpg


Bullelkp.jpg

when I first started elk hunting all my mentors used Remington slide action 30/06 or bolt action 30/06 rifles, I soon swapped to a 340 wby, but a few years later I was offered a great deal on a BAR in 338 win, it proved to be both accurate and 100% dependable if used with the correct hand loads and the semi auto action obviously soaked up recoil, to a huge degree, a few years later I was given a 270 win BAR and it has also been one of the most accurate and dependable deer rifles Ive ever used, so why do you see so few semi autos used out in the field for elk and deer, Ive seen more guys with single shot falling blocks in the field, and bolt and lever actions and slide actions are much more common.
Ive used a 338 win loaded with 225 hornady bullets on a couple elk with ZERO problems
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/146325 ... box-of-100
66 grains of H414 in that 338 win load, worked best in my BAR
http://www.nosler.com/Reloading-Data/33 ... rains.aspx
Ive loaned out my 338 win BAR and every one who has used it remarked on both its accuracy and low recoil,most guys got elk, or deer using it,I got lots of complements on the rifle, yet they don,t seem to go out and buy one, when I purchased a 35 whelen slide action, and when I bought a 358 win BLR half the guys in my elk hunters club had also purchased one within a few years?
Ive never had that 270 bar,or 338 BAR jam or malfunction, both are easily able to deliver 1"-1.2" groups at 100 yards off a bench rest,with most ammo, better with some loads, both will allow almost instant second and third shots if they were ever required so why are they not more popular?
yeah! the only thing I can think of is its most likely the high price, easily 1/3rd more too twice what some of the other rifles cost in some cases? but I see SAKO, colt and weatherby rifles that cost even more in the field, SO I don,t think thats it?
Ive seen a few guys show up with Remington 7400 and 742 rifles but at least among my group they have a reputation for less than impressive accuracy and occasional malfunctions unlike the similar 7600 or 760 remingtons which are highly regarded
a properly cared for and maintained semi auto will function in almost any conditions a bolt action will, in my experience , the problem is that so few people correctly maintain EITHER type of action under field conditions, most assume wiping the outside of the rifle with an oily rag and running a bore brush thru the bore is all thats required. a few may partly disassemble the rifle and spray a bit of oil but careful cleaning , degreasing and use of the proper lubricants is mandatory,
our troops used the garand,M14, browning BAR and MI carbine under horrible conditions and when properly maintained they continue to function
Ive used a 340 wby and 375 H&H on most ELK HUNTS
markv_fibermark.jpg

if you hand load, most auto loaders operate best with powder burn rates that are NOT on the overly slow end of the charts, Ive rarely found anything slower burning than about h4831 can be hard on the actions.
( in many calibers, but especially 7mm rem mag and 300 win mag)
EXAMPLE
THE BUFFER PAD IN A TYPICAL BROWNING BAR
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacture ... -38573.htm
takes a beating with slower burning powders , in some cases even with zero other pressure signs on the cases

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ss/how ... -rifle.htm
browning-bar-09.jpg


http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/re ... wning__BAR

slower powders tend to be rougher on the buffer, my 338 BAR works fine with H414, and WW760 but H4831 will over time beat the buffer up

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

I got asked why I had not suggested a Browning BAR in caliber 300 win mag ?
theres not a damn thing wrong with the Browning BAR, and I have used one in caliber 338 win on a couple hunts
I have too point out the rifle type action and caliber you use, is and always has been in my experience,
far less important than having the skill and knowledge to find and get close to elk/deer,
and use your knowledge of terrain and foliage ,to get very close to game
I can,t think of a single valid reason to not have selected the BAR other than ,
I have almost constantly and consistently walked out the door in the past with a browning 78 falling block in 300 wby
or the BLR in 358 win.
I guess its something like some guys like blondes, or red-heads and I like long legged brunettes with big boobs
theres no logic used in accounting for personal preference.


bar5788.jpg

you can't really have many issues with H4831 or IMR 4831 but I prefer the 150 grain speer bullets in a 270 win.
I have a BAR in both 270 win and 300 win mag,
btw Ive also used a speer 200 grain bullet over a stiff load of H4831 in a browning BAR, for mule deer,
with a 215 federal primer, used on mule deer, it no more or less lethal, and it kicks a bit harder but , I'll point out its also been a consistently accurate combo!
the one attribute it does seem to have is its use
(200 grain bullet/300 win mag/ BAR) irks my hunting buddies,
if I use it on mule deer, but not so much on elk,
I find it amusing, and a bit confusing, in that I don't really understand why my choice in rifle or handload combos,
can in any way effect them. but if you lack a reason to start a heated and pointless conversation, tell the guy next to you you have a 300 win mag in a bar you intend to use on mule deer hunts..... its always resulted in a pointless and sometimes mildly heated discussion... I don't really know why, it works well, and if you place shots in the lower,. heart/lungs its been very consistent/lethal and does not destroy any more meat than the 270 150 grain combo does in my experience.
u0959-4.jpg

now that being stated I can,t think of a single reason that you would not be perfectly armed with a 300 win mag or 338 win mag BAR
or with a browning 78 falling block in 300 wby or the BLR in 358 win.
the only thing I will point out is that the BAR and B78 are both exceptionally well made rifles,
that have both metal and wood finished to a glass like mirror finish,
so to both protect the Finish and to keep that mirror like shine,
from letting every person or animal within several thousand yards seeing that flash, from that gorgeous, high quality,surface,
and reflected sun light like if you were carrying a couple large mirrors I have always purchased a couple girls/womens support hose.
I tie/dye them in light grey and tan and sage green and that slipped over the stock front and back provides some protection and allows you to hunt with no flashy surface
(BTW I also do the same thing with all my hunting rifles, but its MANDATORY with the BAR and B78 as those are always exceptionally shiny)

https://www.amazon.com/Rit-Dye-Liqu...rd_wg=XWJGL&psc=1&refRID=76B07JG0351Q51W95D4E

and a dozen large rubber bands
205-215-black-OT-w-3-large.jpg

Womens%20Affordable%20Tie%20Dye%20Leggings-Camouflage-Brown-Yellow-Green-Multi-UK%20JC696O82H.jpg

THESE PICTURE's POSTED BELOW ARE OF THE TYPE OF AREA I HUNT FREQUENTLY FOR ELK,
to successfully hunt similar areas you need to be very observant,
of the extreme edges of your visual reach over the full 360 degrees surrounding you, while you move through the terrain,
into the areas that elk prefer to travel through and bed in,
and yes you need too move slowly enough to not be easily noticed by the game as you travel through their home and secure areas.
once your familiar with hunting elk in the timber you'll rather quickly realize
you'll rarely get shots over 70-90 yards , but you'll also find you need to make rapid accurate shots from quickly acquired field positions, from the time you see an elk to the time you need to take an accurate shot , may and most likely will be under 10-15 seconds, thats not much time to assess the games horns and the body shot angles to place a lethal shot, thats also why rifles like a 358 win or 450 marlin BLR make a damn effective choice
Browning_BLR.jpg

PRODUCTIVE ELK HUNTING COUNTRY IN MY EXPERIENCE, HAS BEEN MOSTLY SIMILAR TO THESE PICTURES POSTED BELOW

Id remind anyone looking to purchase an accurate dependable hunting rifle that youll want high quality optics and rock solid scope mounts, the best rifle available will be seriously hampered if its not matched to clear and solidly consistent optics!
one of the most common failures I've seen over the decades was not related to the basic rifle function (although that did on occasion happen) but much more commonly loose scope mounts or cheap optics that failed to retain zero or fogged.
for most hunting you don,t need some huge high magnification scope , what you need is decent quality and rock solid dependability.
the newer LEOPOLD and NIKON 30mm tube size scopes are mostly an excellent value for the price.
yes theres hundreds of options, but if your looking for a good value Id suggest you want to select one with top quality optics for the price, a 30mm tube and 50mm front lens in a well known respected brand is a good start point for good low light transmission and clear target,vision. something similar to these linked below would provide an excellent match to a deer or elk rifle to be used for precise shot placement with most reasonable caliber elk/deer rifles, set on the lowest setting they allow you to make very rapid and accurate shots, if you have the time to get a solid field position, jack the magnification up as required.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1362146064/leupold-vx-r-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-3-9x-50mm-matte

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...aff-7-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-25-10x-50mm-matte


https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/12325-browning-blr-scout-style-mount.html

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/519551/weaver-6-hole-weaver-style-rings-matte?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Optics - Scope Rings, Bases, Mounting & Accessories&utm_content=519551&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Optics - Scope Rings, Bases, Mounting & Accessories-_-Weaver-_-519551&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq6X4zMqA2QIV2brACh0otQ2aEAQYAiABEgIgfPD_BwE

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/917995/weaver-surethread-adhesive-10-ml

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...25-10x-50mm-illuminated-mil-dot-reticle-matte
most modern quality scopes are far better than they used to be, but there are some advantages to buying the larger objective lens and 30mm tube designs.
if you've ever taken a scope like one these out at dusk too actually compare how clear the details are you can see, you might be amazed at the difference between the scopes similar to these compared to the older 1" tube and smaller lens size scopes, the newer scopes are a quantum leap in quality over the scopes available even 10-15 years ago.
If you get the chance take out several rifles with different optics , out at dusk and look at fine details on something like a fence at even 150 yards, the difference in the finer detail you can see in less than ideal lighting will astound you!
(this may not seem that important as most scopes look crystal clear in some well lighted store, but if your still hunting the thick timber at dawn or dusk it makes a world of difference if your trying to figure out if your looking at antlers or branches in the lodge pole timber

in my experience youll get about 90% of your shots looking like these, at under 200 yards rather than game standing out in a well lighted field
P1000158.JPG

buckr1.jpg

buckr3.png

buckr2.webp


https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1362146064/leupold-vx-r-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-3-9x-50mm-matte

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...aff-7-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-25-10x-50mm-matte

elkcon1.JPG

elkcon2.jpg

elkcon3.jpg

elkcon4.jpg


elkcoun1.png

col1.jpg


deepcreek.JPG

LOWER CANYON
Full-362-Deep-Creek-Canyon.jpg

upper canyon

picture yourself slowly walking, in a walk 20-40 yards ,stop and glass,for 10-12 minutes, along the slope on one side of the canyon about 200 yards up from the bottom while your hunting companion walks the opposite slope , you'll find this method quite effective, especially if a second pair of hunters start hunting from the opposite end of the canyon, elk spotting one hunter will generally move making them more easily seen from the opposite slope.

have you ever had a ridiculous discussion over which rifle caliber or bullet config was the universal or ideal rifle ?
now there is really no way too logically and rationally debate what particular rifle or cartridge is ideal, or reason with some guy who wants to promote a certain projectile, or action type is the ideal combo?

the fact is that the guy using that rifle and his confidence in it and familiarity using it has a huge effect on his proficiency, or likely success.
most of the discussions are all but useless without detailed context on the conditions you'll be hunting in and the game and ranges, involved an that constantly changes as you can,t reasonably predict what you'll encounter.
simply because the skill and physical conditioning and experience of the guy with the rifle, the factors of the ranges game is shot from,the rifles weight, and barrel length, bullet impact angles, terrain altitudes, the projectile trajectory, the need to rapidly compensate too match the games movement and size of the game your hunting constantly change.
smiling and agreeing is probably the best route out of the discussion, especially if your experience and views on that subject tend too differ a great deal!.
what might be ideal on one particular hunt might be far less useful on the next hunt.

if I hunt mule deer in the thick timber in the warner wilderness in norther California,

warner1.jpg
warner2.jpg

Id have dozens of options, but damn few would be ideal for mule deer in Wyoming on sage brush flats.
warner3.jpg

warner4.jpg


now obviously you could get a 270 win or a 300 win mag or 7mm mag , a good bolt action, too work reasonably well in both types of terrain,
but that does not make those rifles or cartridges the only viable or ,the best possible choice in either area, and a single shot falling block or a semi auto in a different cartridge might be equally useful.

I lot of the time if I go to the local 200 yard rifle range I'll have some guy come over and start up a conversation and discussing what rifle I've chosen to take out to the range , vs what they may have or think is the best option, this subject seems to interest a good percentage of the gentlemen I meet, but I generally just smile and nod, as at times I think they are simply trying hard to justify a previous purchase... especially when I see they have no real skill with or even a good grasp on the rifle they owns trajectory, or potential accuracy, of the rifle they own.
(many can,t sight in a rifle and think a 3" 25 yard group is OK, and once thats accomplished the rifles now correctly set up for hunting.)
I learned long ago to not voice any on some other guys rifle choice or voice my opinion unless I was asked and that 99% of the time vit was just a conversation starter they wanted.
as ive stated several times its much more important that you have a good deal of experience with what ever rifle you own than what is stamped on the case


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...y-you-don-t-sight-dead-on-at-100-yards.14018/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/printable-targets-and-sighting-in.4560/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...looking-for-a-good-7mm-rem-mag-elk-load.6270/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ive had more experience using a semi auto rifle on deer than elk hunts but I can assure you, that 56 grains H4831sc under a 150 speer hot core in my 270 BAR shoots consistent .75"-1"- 5 shot 100 yard groups and at least 5 mule deer one hit kills at fairly long ranges in a few cases, (out to 554 yards, measured with a laser range finder in one case, before I fired ) using that 270 win and 150 grain speer bullet,_ in my experience with that rifle have proven its darn effective
(BTW I normally tape a laminated, ballistic drop chart to my hunting rifle butt stocks for quick reference , it helps,
as does sighting in all my big game rifles at 3.5" high at 100 yard zero)


270bal.jpg



Ive seen a whole lot of different rifles used in our elk hunting club over the last 45 years and theres been fads come and go,in what was considered the ideal elk rifle type and caliber,the 300 mags and 7mm mags were hot in the 70s the 338 win and 35 whelen still have guys who believe they are the best choices,
the fact is that your 30/06 will do the job just fine! especially if YOUR familiar with how to use it and use good ammunition, and the BAR is a bit heavy but its certainly a good accurate and dependable choice that Id have no issue using.
IVE LOADED AND USED THIS FOR THE GUYS IN CAMP WHO USE A 30/06 for DECADES
30/06............200grn speer....215 fed primer......48-49 grains win 760
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212211

If your worried about a 30/06 BAR you use for deer hunting ,not being the best elk rifle, Id suggest forgetting about changing rifles and concentrate on rather extensive practice shooting from field position's, learning to use a sling and bi-pod and use of a good 180-200 grain bullet.
what your armed with will have far less effect on your results that how good you are at using it, knowing your games anatomy and how effective you are at finding and getting well into range of a decent elk, and believe me when I say on most hunts its that finding and getting into range thats difficult, not killing an elk, especially with a 30/06, its just not that difficult once your in reasonable close, and with a 30/06 , a good bi-pod and sling even 350 yards or more is do-able

I was asked how critical it is to have a second fast shot available, short answer ! as I got more experience I learned to not shoot as often and pick my shots better, so the number made tended to get lower until recently I rarely make a second shot!
Before I went On my first elk hunt I listened intently to the advice the guys that invited me to join them on my first out of state elk hunt told me to follow.
I practiced extensively shooting from field positions, off hand, and sitting, to become both fast and accurate enough to rapidly place several shots on a 6" paper plate at 100 yards using my first elk rifle (a 760 Remington slide action in 30/06 )which is what most of my mentors had strongly suggested I purchase as that was what they had found worked the best.
the first two elk I shot ran on bullet impact but dropped after 20-40 yards.
I was convinced I needed a bigger caliber, but as I gained experience I realized it was mostly shot placement not power that matered.
I tried both times but was not able to hit a vital spot on the second shot.
I swapped to a bolt action 340 wby, the first couple elk I shot with it either dropped or staggered around obviously mortally hit, then fell.
So while Ive occasionally taken a second shot I found its both seldom required or as well placed as a carefully placed first shot. Ive occasionally shot twice at a elk that appeared to run after bullet impact , and with practice and experience I got rather good at rapid second shots with that 340 wby bolt actions 60 degree bolt lift and have made a very few second shots, but over the last 20 plus years I can,t remember shooting at over 250 yards or needing a second shot to anchor an elk, but Id also say the average range was about 130 yards, most shots were closer and made frequently using a bi-pod and sling precise shots were not difficult
 
One of those nagging questions I've pondered for decades is why the 338 win mag and 340 wby mag are not a great deal more popular than they are?
and why the BROWNING BAR semi auto,
in 338 win mag and 300 win mag, are not all that popular,
now the rather obvious answer I get when I ask other people about that is either they are reluctant to deal with the recoil,or they don,t see spending the cash for a damn nice quality rifle is worth it.
and yes the rifles cost easily twice what you can get dozens of other rifles for,
or they think that a 300 mag or 7 mm mag have considerably flatter trajectory

yes if you want to get down to doing the math both are semi valid points ,
but once again your forced to deal in reality and logically ask
..how much flatter does it shoot or how much more recoil are you dealing with,
and is that minor increased drop or recoil a trade off,
and are you getting a good value for the increased cost of the rifle vs,
something significantly cheaper, that provides compensating benefits?

you can play with the linked calculators all you want too , but the truth won,t change, a 225-250 grain bullet out of a 338 mag BAR will only drop a bit more,
than a similar rifle chambered in 7 mm mag or 300 mag with a commonly used 160-200 grain bullet over the most likely range you'll use the rifle.
despite almost every magazine article you'll ever read the reality is that you can spend decades hunting elk and never take a shot at a bull,
out past 350 yards and if your , like most successful elk hunters you know that most elk are found in thicker timber or brush,
and you could hunt your whole life and rarely have the opportunity to shoot a bull at over 350 yards.
I've owned and still own several BROWNING rifles in several models and ,
I'VE never had a single browning rifle in any model or caliber that was not well above average in quality and accuracy,
if you were to compare the QUALITY AND ACCURACY of a well maintained BAR,too the common average Remington semi-auto 7400,you see used in the field,
the difference in quality is so obvious as to make the comparison insane!

of course the remington 7400 costs less, its intended to fill a different market share,
and its not available in the belted magnums like the BAR is,
but comparing the two rifles is in my opinion like comparing ,
the quality and value of a t-bone steak dinner with a glass of good red wine,
and a baked potato, (BAR)
...
too a hot dog, chips and a pepsi, from 7/11 for dinner(7400)
BTW in my experience if you hand load most BARS, Youll find the medium ,
burn rate,powders like ww748 and H414,
are generally the most consistent in a BAR or any semi auto rifle,
using a reasonably heavy projectile for the caliber.



example, if we take a ballistically efficient hornady 230 grain bullet , with its .616 ballistic coeficient
you could easily push to 2700 fps and compare the drop out to 350 yards you might be amazed at how flat it shoots,
below are two ballistic trajectory charts, no hunter would be able to tell the effective difference in the trajectory or lethality but I can assure you from my field experience the impact of the marginally larger diameter and heavier bullet has had a noticeable effect on how elk I've shot reacted, both are 100% lethal but personally I trust the 338 win more.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/338-cal-.338-230-gr-eld-x#!/
HERES THE 338 WIN MAG
338win230.png
338-230.png


300 WIN MAG
300-200.png

youll almost never see an opportunity for a similar shot out in the open, like these pictures, which were probably taken in a national park or some non-hunting area
bullelkp1.jpg

Bullelkp.jpg

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-win-mag-200-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/


https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php

http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

related info
http://www.chuckhawks.com/338WinMag.htm

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/-338-winchester-magnum.html


http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=338 Winchester Magnum&Weight=All&type=rifle&Source=

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.338+Winchester+Magnum.html

http://www.bergerbullets.com/reloading-data/338-winchester-magnum/
 
Last edited:
I was asked why I never mention or used a remington auto loader, well, I have,
I've used several semi-auto rifles over the decades
I purchased one (742 remington,) back in the early 1970s, a 30/06 ,
the one I had never shot better than a 2" 3 shot hundred yard group,even after rather extensive hand load tweaking,
and the group center of impact at 100 yards would start drifting once the barrel got hotter,
a few years later a friend noticed it in my gun safe and ask if Id sell it!
well, when one of my friends offered me what I paid for it I jumped at the offer,
keep in mind prices for a new 7400 remington, were then years later costing,
three times what Id paid for the 742,
he loves the rifle but hunts hogs in SOUTH FLA,
I doubt he's ever needed to take over a 50 yard shot.
by that time it was discontinued, and the 7400 rem was out.
and used the cash to buy a browning lever action ,in 358 win,
it was one of the best , and most consistently, accurate,
carbines I ever owned and I still use that BLR.
Id point out I own and use a remington 7600 in caliber 35 whelen and that is very accurate ,
so I guess the 742 was just the odd lemon,
as to the best semi auto elk rifle,
I'll stick with the 338 win chambered browning BAR, its simply proven to be accurate and very dependable
 
Last edited:
Back
Top