why would you swap to ethanol?

[Grumpy]

why are people, specifically in the hot rod world swapping to e85 gas. I see the slight cost difference but the energy released is not as much. so i see it as you need more fuel to do what gas does.. just wanna know why. i do get the lines ( gas is more corrosive for regular fuel lines ) and such and a few things have to be changed and adjusted .. I just don't see why swapping to it when you need more fuel to do what gas does ..

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/e85-vs-114-octane-race-gas-on-the-dyno-with-a-boosted-small-block/

if you super charge or use turbos read this
https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stori...00-hp-street-engine-big-power-means-big-fuel/

14.7:1-15:1 static compression and 12.5:1 dynamic compression,
is generally considered about ideal for ethanol powered e85 engines
if you run e85 in an engine with low enough compression that the engine can be run on pump gas you'll see very little benefit from e85 fuel use.
ethanol or E85 is very corrosive to many plastics, synthetics and even aluminum over time.
boost the mechanical compression to about 15:1 and get the cam timing
to produce about a 12.5:1 dynamic compression and the engines characteristics and power potential increases remarkably

if you use a low compression engine ethanol fuel provides less mileage per gallon and less power,
but ethanol and METHANOL both potentially can provide a significant boost in power if the engines built with a high enough compression ratio to take full advantage of the higher octane,or knock resistance the alcohol provides, yes it will require about 25%-30% more fuel , but the power potential is certainly available if the engines built with high mechanical compression, gains of 5%-10% or more in peak torque and horse power are rather easily made if the proper components and compression ratio are used to take advantage of the alcohols different burn characteristics and potential.
the problem is that most engines are not exclusively designed to run ethanol.
any engine designed to use both race octane gas and alcohol interchangeably is not designed to maximize the alcohol characteristics,

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...octane-for-compression-ratio.2718/#post-86754

heres a good example of an engine designed to run both e85 and race octane gas, in my opinion the potential corrosion issues make the use of the slightly cheaper e85 , just not worth the hassle.
https://petroclear.com/resources/dont-be-phased.php

The Big Fuel Test Part 5: E85 Versus All—The Winner is Crowned!

In the final installation of our Big Fuel Test series, a winner is chosen—and the results may surprise you! Bob Morreale runs down all of the specifics.

www.enginelabs.com

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ne-running-a-turbo-s-on-e85.10990/#post-73557

 

[Unforgiven]

Well... I was paying $108 for 5 gallons of Q16 race fuel.
E-85 is Under $3 gallon here.
For a regular DD i'm not convinced that there is a savings.. but for a motor (in the hotrod world)
who has built a motor with high compression...YES there is power to be had.
The latency effect of the fuel will lower the intake temps which will allow more timing to make more power.
As for the added fuel..it is still cheaper than running race gas.

 

[Grumpy]

theres certainly advantages to using alcohol ,
significantly cooler engine temps and a bit better power without any doubts.
but one thing I learned using alcohol in any race engine was to be damn sure you remembered,
to run the engine on straight 100% gas,with a dash of MMO,
for a couple minutes before you turn it off and park the car
if you don,t youll have an amazing amount of corrosion related issues in a car thats parked for a week or more between usages

my 1968 corvette with a big block 496, running METHANOL and crower injection, it looked vaguely like this picture,when I tried alcohol for a short time,
mine was Burgundy and a chrome bumper corvette of course
that required a quick disconnect fuel cell, so I could quickly swap fuel tanks,
I had a 15 gallon fuel cell in the corvette, filed with METHANOL, and a quart of MMO, and a jury rigged 5 gallon fuel can, filled with 115 octane gas and a pint of MMO, we carried separately , too the track,
with the proper quick connect connectors to run the car from for a few minutes ,
before we parked it for any length of time to reduce the chances of corrosion.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/build-a-496-stroker-bbc.101/#post-15067

 

[Unforgiven]

I learned that the HARD way when I was using Q16. It corroded my carb and ate all the seals!
I seen where you recommended adding some MMO to the fuel to aid in preventing this problem.

I am adding a one gallon gas tank next to my fuel cell , and both tanks will have a fuel valve to switch
back and forth before the fuel pump. This will also aid in cold starts as E85 is hard to light off.
Not sure if I'm going to use a electric switch or manual valves yet.

 

[Grumpy]

THE MMO, won,t prevent the issue but it,s consistent use,
will commonly and significantly and noticeably reduce the problem

https://www.bellperformance.com/blog/4-things-you-need-to-know-about-ethanol-fuel

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...etering_block_conversion_kits/parts/34-106QFT


https://www.holley.com/products/fue...ering_block_conversion_kits/parts/34-45E85QFT

 

[Maniacmechanic1]

I learned that the HARD way when I was using Q16. It corroded my carb and ate all the seals!
I seen where you recommended adding some MMO to the fuel to aid in preventing this problem.

I am adding a one gallon tank next to my fuel cell , and both tanks will have a fuel valve to switch
back and forth before the fuel pump. This will also aid in cold starts as E85 is hard to light off.
Not sure if I'm going to use a electric switch or manual valves yet.

VP Q16 has Nitromethane in it.
Not advertised at all.
Have experience with Q16.
Post a vid at lunchtime.

 

[Maniacmechanic1]

E85 is Corrosive because it absorbs water out of air.
Good cheep race fuel.

Like my High Lead Race 110 gasoline.
Longevity.
Power.
It's expensive too.
Street Race its worth it.

 

[Grumpy]

I was recently asked to help design an E85 fuel system,
to help feed a 540 cubic inch, 13:1 compression ratio,
, BBC big block engine that should rather easily produce 700hp-740hp
obviously the O.E.M. fuel system,
is not going to keep up with the requirements of the engine
but a fuel injection system operates at higher pressures so an AN #8 fuel line and a 400 lph-450 lph pump (minimum) is about right for most street performance applications
the days of easy access too $.34 cents a gallon SUNOCO 260 are unfortunately now just a distant,
but pleasant memory
but E85 has some significantly increased octane potential if your willing to deal with some issues

https://www.amazon.com/EVIL-ENERGY-...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Energy content

The energy content of ethanol is lower than that of gasoline. The heating value of ethanol is around 27 MJ/kg, in volumetric terms around 21 MJ/l, which is only 65% of the volumetric energy content of gasoline. This leads to higher volumetric fuel consumption with ethanol compared to gasoline. Theoretically, increase in volumetric fuel consumption is about 3.5% when a 10% ethanol blend is compared with nonoxygenated gasoline. If the advantage of alcohols’ high octane numbers is exploited by increasing the compression ratio of the engine, energy efficiency as kilometers per energy unit of fuel (km/MJ) can be higher for alcohols than for gasoline.

Density of ethanol is 0.79 kg/l, which is slightly higher than that of gasoline. Higher density improves volumetric fuel economy to some extent.

Oxygen content

The oxygen content of ethanol is 35%. The oxygen content of fuel determines the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio, which is 9 kg air/kg fuel for ethanol, whereas it is 14.6 kg/kg for gasoline. Closed-loop fuel control system can compensate the leaning effect of fuel, but even the modern cars can tolerate oxygenates only up to certain concentrations. This is reflected in legislation and standards of gasoline.



if your running ethanol/E85 fuel you'll need 40% or more increased fuel volume over gas,
THERES NO WAY THE STOCK AN6 or 3/8" line size would work
so you're very likely to need a different fuel pump and ethanol compatible fuel lines and fittings.
Id be looking at an electric fuel pump that has a bit more capacity at the calculated pressure than the calculations show is required.

the fittings come in a dozen types, in that AN8,
any good hydraulic supply can fabricate these hoses if you measure accurately,
explain exactly what your intended use is,
and if you don,t feel comfortable doing it yourself,
just be aware , if you have hoses made a little bit longer than required is far better than a bit too short, and longer hoses can be shortened, hoses too short need to be replaced (far more expensive)

related links
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/fuel-pressure-regulators.635/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-big-a-fuel-pump-do-you-need.1939/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculate-fuel-injector-size.1200/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/installing-a-fuel-cell.733/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ed-in-a-fuel-system-upgrade.13345/#post-69487

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/setting-up-your-fuel-system.211/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/input-on-electric-fuel-pump-selection.10664/

remember the charts are for GAS, youll need a 40% increase in flow for E85

 

[Grumpy]

Typically people will run 12.5 - 13.5:1 comp in a NA E85 fueled engine.
you can expect a 10% increase in torque over gas with a correctly tuned e85 fueled engine
The turbo guys live on this stuff at high boost.
In theory you could go to 15:1, but that is high risk territory.
The apparent FAR (FUEL AIR RATIO) is different, say 7:1 with ethanol instead or 13:1 with gas because the alcohol adds a lot of oxygen.

AMF

Information on advanced motor fuels and powertrains. Details about the IEA´s Advanced Motor Fuels Implementing Agreement.

www.iea-amf.org

thus the ignition advance will be less, where you might run 32-37 degrees with gas, you'll be likely to run about 17-20 degrees total advance with ethanol/e85

AMF

Information on advanced motor fuels and powertrains. Details about the IEA´s Advanced Motor Fuels Implementing Agreement.

www.iea-amf.org

Id point out that you should never fill your tank with E85 (or even the common E10) and let the car sit parked, for weeks .
as ethanol absorbs moisture from the air and that will eventually result in significant amounts of water.
sitting in the bottom of the fuel tank (rust and fuel pump damage issues)if the car is not driven regularly

 

[Grumpy]