won,t spin or start

[grumpyvette]

My 1989 vette won't start, i have a new battery
When i turn the key everything lights up fine, fuel pump runs and i can hear a relay inside the car but nothing happens. It just won't crank. No clicks or anything from the starter.
found this behind the battery, the cables look bad and the one with the red arrow has a small bulge on it.
What are these cables? Anything to do with the starter?

With ignition on the security light doesnt flash but when you turn the key to start it flashes

have you checked that 5 amp fuse holder fuse?
it could be a VATS related failure but its could also be a bad ignition switch
for that mater have you verified ALL THE FUSES?
have you tried to jump the starter without using the ignition key?
are you getting voltage at the starter? what voltage does the battery show on a multi meter ? whats it change too if you jump the starter
youve got several independent but linked systems and sensors to deal with start by getting the starter to spin the engine,if you have the 12 volt plus current at the starter jump the solinenoid, if the starter won,t spin disassemble it and repair or replace it. then get fuel pressure in the fuel rails, ignition spark and injector pulses and maintain 39-41 psi fuel pressure and at least 10 psi oil pressure and at least 13.5 volts from the alternator and properly timed ignition spark

Id suggest giving both the starter and solenoid a good close inspection the starter or solenoid could be locked up, a couple hits with a plastic mallet and bye passing the ignition with the manual starter switch should tell you if the starter spins and engages the fly wheel if its getting the battery current?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/anm-cp7853?seid=srese1&gclid=CMvm6Pjcl8UCFYk7aQod_DcAvA

a logical step by step approach will lead you to the problem, youll be amazed at what youll learn reading links.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ters-and-started-related-info.458/#post-23081

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-anti-theft-system-vats-making-you-crazy.520/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/remote-solenoid-schematic.4846/
every mechanic needs an ANALOG multi meter for testing capacitors with a micro farad scale, AND a DIGITAL MULTI METER

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=63&p=3403&hilit=vats#p3403

use of a shop manual and multi meter can be very helpful

every step can be broken down into sub steps that can be tested and isolated, when you find some component won,t function its almost all ways because of a bad connection, faulty sensor or a broken component that can be isolated and tested then replaced if found to be defective once your sure that its getting the correct voltage , engine vacuum or oil, fuel, pressure sensor input , resistance or mechanical connections etc.
yeah as a whole its some times a bit confusing and over whelming, but broken down into simple steps and tests its not nearly as difficult to trouble shoot or correct once the defective components isolated
VIDEO TO WATCH

your battery should be a 630-750 amp rated battery at a MINIMUM and the volts should read 12-12.8 MINIMUM even when cranking the car
clean the connection area carefully
use of a battery post cleaning brush tool is usually helpful

use of this common anti-seize paste on the connecting thread surfaces noticeably reduces corrosion and helps electrical conductivity

http://www.harborfreight.com/battery...ner-94450.html

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...940_0212865359

coat the cable connections with the proper anti corrosive paste

http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/GenuinePartsCompany/NWMDC?$Product=GenuinePartsCompany/55709
READ THRU THESE
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...86-vette-running-really-rich.9677/#post-46102

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/c4-corvettes-fuel-system-info.67/#post-37351

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...arters-and-started-related-info.458/#post-562

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/odd-starter-related-problem.5926/#post-18758

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/168-or-153-flywheels.3951/#post-10551

 

[DorianL]

Welp - I have been having problems with the TT. When it's hot it cranks very slowly. Sometimes way too slow to start.

Anyway, time to get a look at that...

Up she goes...

I did a voltage drop test and found that there was a 2-volt drop when hot between the solenoid and the starter.

Out she goes

Hmmm, that looks toasty... Brushes looked fine tho'

Let's replace that...

Let's prevent any further cooking...

And RATS!!!! The problem is still there. Grmbl. It is such a pain to get that starter in and out - on my back on cobblestones. It barely clears the headers on the way out and on the way in I have to remove the solenoid. Grrrr!

 

[Indycars]

It barely clears the headers on the way out and on the way in I have to remove the solenoid. Grrrr!

Get a TBucket...... problem solved!!! hehehehe

 

[DorianL]

That may well be next on my list... I truly enjoy your build and am considering something similar as my next...

 

[Indycars]

The TT engine in a TBucket ...... too too much fun, not sure if you could handle that much fun!!!

 

[grumpyvette]

MarkusZF found that the older starter, that had previously been rebuilt, was locked up and the car started after the started was hit a few times with a hammer to jar it loose.....theres a valid chance to have this problem be instructive in nature,most experienced mechanics would have easily isolated the issue to the starter function if they had logically tested and followed the test and isolate procedures, if anyone is being amazed the engine started after jarring the stuck or worn starter loose, that simply indicates the hit or miss guessing vs a logical progression and testing, yes you lucked out finding it that way, but in the future , tracking down problems is likely too find the random parts swapping approach rather expensive, in this case replacing the starter would be a smart idea as its obviously worn
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-8173nep/applications/year/1996
YOU NEED A MULTI METER AND FSM

https://newrockiesinc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/231743688-1992-1996-Chevrolet-Corvette

 

[DorianL]

Soooo. I checked out the quality of my ground and it was: underwhelming.

Right. Not good.

Sanded it down. And it's a bit better. In fact overall the car seems to run a bit smoother.

Now it seems to hang a bit, crank slowly, then quickly.

Tomorrow I'll get another look with the DMM.

 

[DorianL]

Right! Well, I suppose I did my previous voltage drop reading wrong. I am reading at this point about .8 volt drop on the way into the starter and 1.o on the way out. This is cold or hot. If the starter hesitates, I get respectively 1.5 and 1.8.

I hooked up the DMM as follows
On the way in: positive to batt + and negative to starter's main stud.
On the way out: positive to batt - and negative to the starter's rear stud on the body. (A ground stud, right?)

Not sure how to proceed from here...

Is the problem inside the starter? The positive cable? The ground seems fine...

I can check the feed cable... but not sure why there's a drop in the ground.

And how does one know if the starter is toast?

 

[mathd]

Camaro did the exact same thing just before storage.
I did not get to look at it, Am just going to wait until you find the problem, then i know what to look for .

Hopefully its the wiring and not the starter.

 

[DorianL]

Well, at this point, I am beginning to suspect the starter. I have had several issues with it in the past.

If I recall correctly some years back I heard a loud crack coming from the starter. I inspected the flexplate, fearing the worst, but found nothing. I think that's when problems may have started.

Later, in the summer of 2013, one of the long thin bolts holding the back of the case had come loose causing the case to come slightly off and cock. (The loud crack dislodged it?) Of course like this, there was no starting. I managed to sung it up and drive the Chevy 700 miles home without ever shutting down the engine.

After that experience, I pulled the starter out for repair and inspection. This was still a couple of years ago. All that I could find was a shattered plastic washer inside the starter. I could never find any reference to that washer in any of the exploded diagrams of the starter... and it seemed to spin up fast without it. I suppose it was there to set the end play. The washer was brittle and seemed to have suffered from excessive heat cycles.

I'd say there is mounting evidence that the starter is beyond salvage.

My feeling now is that it's on its last leg... or bolt.

This weekend I'll swap in a new starter. Plus heat shield it.

(Not to highjack this thread on spinning starters, but the last two things remain to be done with the Tangerine Tornado are:
a. Replace the radiator. I found a small leak. However, I am quite sure there is no one in Belgium that can fix that reliably. That would explain my coolant levels that keep going down.
b. Seal those XXXX-ing valve covers. I am going to get MEVDIEVAL on those things. I keep losing oil leaks despite having meticulously prepped the gaskets and install as detailed elsewhere here in this forum. I hate SBC valve covers.
Once that's done - one last look at the ignition. I suspect there might be a better way to wire the MSD.)

 

[DorianL]

In fact, I might yank the starter tonight and inspect it. Dropping these things seems to be so much easier than installing.

 

[mathd]

I suspected the wiring because my starter is pretty new. hope its not dying on me already... Let me know if the new starter cure it.
I use cork valve cover gasket, i took them apart 2-3 time(checking valve lash after break-in, changing the guidplate for adjustable..) with the same gasket and it never leak on me.

 

[87vette81big]

There were several variations of GM Delco 10MT Starter motors.
You want the Chevy High Torque series field wound unit Dorien.
They are actually getting hard to find.
Reman store quality is real Hit or Miss.
I am suspecting a Bad Field Electromagnet in the TT Starter. There are 4 of them.
Possible short in Armature when its Hot only.

 

[87vette81big]

Might be a needle in Haystack find for You in Belgium .
If you can find a 1966 -76 Pontiac V8 400- 428-455 Starter motor, used on GTO & Firebird Trans Am, all were High Torque 10 MT units.
Swap the aluminum Chevy nose on it.
Or from a 454 BBC Original .

 

[DorianL]

I use cork valve cover gasket, i took them apart 2-3 time(checking valve lash after break-in, changing the guidplate for adjustable..) with the same gasket and it never leak on me.

Funny - gee, I have a voodoo doll left over... looks just like you, Mathieu. I suspect that my T-hold downs are consistently coming loose. I think I am going to replace with lock nuts. Again, a pain to find over here. A hack job, I know, but I will put a thin film of RTV on there.

Might be a needle in Haystack find for You in Belgium .
If you can find a 1966 -76 Pontiac V8 400- 428-455 Starter motor, used on GTO & Firebird Trans Am, all were High Torque 10 MT units.
Swap the aluminum Chevy nose on it.
Or from a 454 BBC Original .

I think that boat has sailed. There used to be a junkyard here where you could pick your own parts but for environmental and safety reasons... it closed.

I go lazy yesterday - I could not bring myself to crawl under the car and pull the starter. I hope once I have it out I'll be able to visually see what is wrong with it once I have it apart. I like finding evidence of failures... not just replacing the part and have problem go away.

Point take, I'll also check the starter cable - possibly replace it with an even thicker gauge. I think the one on there right now is a 1. IIRC

 

[DorianL]

Right, so further digging:

Right - several things look wrong here

 

[grumpyvette]

it looks like replacement, of the red battery cable burn on the exhaust,and the replacement, starter time too me as that ones obviously got considerable wear issues, and starters are just not all that expensive compared to the time and labor required to replace one, Id suggest a NEW mini starter not rebuilt, as they are available for under $150 if you shop carefully

READ THE LINKS AND SUB LINKS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-altenators-work.355/

 

[87vette81big]

There a couple of ways to go Dorien....
Summit Racing and a Mini Starter.
China or USA Made.
Remember Rick's Issues with his 1st Mini Starter on the T-bucket ?
He was real Pissed off....Jokers everywhere.
TILTON IS THE VERY BEST NEW.
NEED $400 CASH TO BUY IT.

OR I CAN BUILD YOU A DELCO HIGH TORQUE 10 MT STARTER FOR THE T.T.
UP TO YOU.
CS144 1-WIRE ALTERNATOR I BUILT FOR THE TT MUST BE A-OK.
HAS BEEN 2 YEARS.

 

[DorianL]

Hi All,

Say - as you look at the innards of this starter... what, enlightening my untrained eye, would you say was wrong with it and what was acceptable?

What I think is wrong with it is the lands and troughs on the contacts... they look glazed together. I read that with a hacksaw you could clean that up

Clearly the windings smacked against the windings in the case and magnets, but is the damage significant?

And man that cable looks cooked! I am going to see if I can find a larger one.

I'd like to put a mini-starter in there (Made in USA) but that will have to be for a later date. I'd have to order from Summit and well... $$$ are a bit low A new radiator will be the next big expense. Then "plugging that damn leak".

I can tell you that as it is, I can barely squeeze this one in and out. Last time I had to remove the solenoid case to get it in. Strange, this came out without having to remove it. Soooo, there must be a way to get it back in as well.

And finally - Daredevil on Netflix is pretty good.

 

[87vette81big]

I cant build you a High Torque 10 MT Starter for the TT for $5 bucks Dorien.
What can you afford.
Your starter is SHOT.
Junk.

Let me know.
Have time to build a Brian 10MT starter for the TT.

Brian R.