200-4r Rebuild Questions

[jelco]

I’m planning on doing a mild upgrade of the 200-4R. I now have it completely gutted.

How much wear on the pump is tolerable? As you can see there’s a slight groove around 70% of the stator shaft where the pump meets the pump rotor. Does the pump need to be replaced?

 

[Grumpy]

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-200-4r-transmission-project.7230/

you may want to read through this above linked ,
thread and its sub links a few times

btw INDYCARS/RICKS rebuilt several

 

[jelco]

Yes, that’s a great thread with tons of great photos.

 

[Indycars]

I don't think that would make or break your transmission rebuild, but on the other hand it's
not something that I would put back in a nice car. If it was an everyday driver, it would be OK.

I had my pump machined flat because both of mine were much worse than yours. So you might
check into the cost for that and decide accordingly.

You will want to make sure that the new pump rings (212) are of the harden type. If you purchase
thru Dave Husek or CK Performance, then I bet that's all they would sell.

 

[jelco]

The scoring is deep enough to catch my fingernail but I’ll leave it if it’s not too big of a deal for a daily driver. I spent $200 for the ‘89 transmission from the salvage yard. I’d rather spend another $200 to get another core than to buy another pump. I got the transgo hardened pump rings for $15.

Regarding the pump, I have a Haynes manual that states prior to ‘83 700R4’s you need to enlarge the oil drain-back passage with a 1/4” drill bit, is that also true for the 200-4Rs prior to 1983? If it is then I lucked out and don’t have to do that modification.

 

[jelco]

Images of the direct drum (604) before and after light sanding with 400 grit wet/dry sand paper. And a little wear where it meets the input drum (640). I understand the direct drum is supposed to shine and be perfectly straight, no warps. I thought I could sand it again with 1000 grit.
Also pictured is the 4th clutch spring assembly (533) found it missing 2 springs. I’m guessing it’s ok for my application.

 

[Grumpy]

thank you for posting the pictures as it makes understanding what your dealing with and doing far easier to understand.

 

[Indycars]

The scoring is deep enough to catch my fingernail but I’ll leave it if it’s not too big of a deal for a daily driver. I spent $200 for the ‘89 transmission from the salvage yard. I’d rather spend another $200 to get another core than to buy another pump. I got the transgo hardened pump rings for $15.

I would go for the 2nd trans and maybe an even better pump half. The hardened pump rings
may be all they sell anymore, they were a common failure.

Regarding the pump, I have a Haynes manual that states prior to ‘83 700R4’s you need to enlarge the oil drain-back passage with a 1/4” drill bit, is that also true for the 200-4Rs prior to 1983? If it is then I lucked out and don’t have to do that modification.

Yes that is also recommended for the 200-4R. Sometimes one does get lucky, just don't get use
to it !

Images of the direct drum (604) before and after light sanding with 400 grit wet/dry sand paper. And a little wear where it meets the input drum (640). I understand the direct drum is supposed to shine and be perfectly straight, no warps. I thought I could sand it again with 1000 grit.

Check the Direct Drum for roundness. Unless you have a better way to check, roll it on a table
or spin it on the shaft and watch the outer surface.

I like the looks of the 400 grit surface, CK recommends a fine grit emery cloth. I wouldn't use the
1000 grit. You don't want it to shine like chrome if that's your meaning of "shine".

Use a straight edge like the arrows show below, it should be flat within a .005". Check it in several
places around the circumference. I think this is what you meant by straight, but wanted to make sure.

Inspect and smooth the drive tangs where the Direct Drum fits into the Sun Gear Shell.

Also pictured is the 4th clutch spring assembly (533) found it missing 2 springs. I’m guessing it’s ok for my application.

Go ahead and add those two springs from the 2nd trans.

 

[jelco]

Last time I was at the salvage yard every car had the transmission taken out but the one from the Oldsmobile I got. Ill go back and see if they have anymore I may have missed.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/article/gm-th200-4r-transmission-conversions/

 

[Grumpy]

 

[jelco]

I’ve watched that one

 

[jelco]

The overrun clutch assembly housing, aka overrun drum, #510 of the ATSG manual, is worn and has a rough surface as pictured. I found a replacement from Cobra transmissions for $6 but the welding doesn’t seem as good as I expected it to be.
In these images 211 (thrust washer) is against 551.
My thrust washer wasn’t broken or significantly worn so maybe in the rebuild before mine they didn’t replace the overrun drum.

 

[Indycars]

I've noticed that they all seem to have some defect, but the one from Cobra looks worse than
normal. I'm not sure what you are saying about 211 and 551, are those ID's different than the
ATSG manual?

Below is the only 510 I have other than in a complete trans. If you can't find a better one, I can
send you this one. But lets see what you need after you have inspected the complete trans and
try to do this in a couple of shipments.

I know I must be sounding reluctant to help with parts, but I don't want you to think that !
I'm not going to make enough to help my bank account and only really want to recover my costs.
I don't want you to need a part for your rebuild and can't find a decent replacement when I have
one. I want to make sure you have what you need. If it's easier to get it somewhere else then
please do, but don't hesitate to ask me when you can't find what you need.

I hope the paragraph above makes sense and I'm coming across like I intended.





.

 

[jelco]

211 and 551 are the thrust washer and overrun drum from the additional images I posted. I should have just posted screen shots of the ATSG manual.
It makes sense for me to do a thorough inspection before requesting parts. Your help and feedback is invaluable. I got an email today informing me a 1990 Cadillac deville showed up at the salvage yard so I may be able to get another core.

Do you replace the bushing in the overrun drum?

 

[Indycars]

Yeah I found other drawings with different ID's like the pic below when I was doing my research
in the beginning of my build, but I did not find 211 so I was not sure about your intentions. You can
disregard the 2 red arrows and the 126H, it has nothing to do with my comment.

It makes sense for me to do a thorough inspection before requesting parts. Your help and feedback is invaluable.

Yes we can try to minimize the number of shipments, but I do understand that it's not always possible to be
100% accurate. Thanks for your very nice comment, hope I can live up to your needs.

Do you replace the bushing in the overrun drum?

I replaced every bushing without even checking to see if it was needed. They came in my purchase from
CK Performance, so I just replaced them.
.

 

[jelco]

I’m still working on this but the 2000 Tundra I bought last week won’t start and I found out the starter is beneath the intake manifold. Weird and makes things more time consuming.

From here on out I’ll only use ATSG numbers. I’m having a hard time reassembling the overrun drum, getting the seals 512 onto 511 then getting the snap ring 520 onto 521.

I’ll reread and search through your posts. I wanted to make your thread into a book or one long continuous post (searchable by ATSG#) but I haven’t had time to continue that project. I wanted to organize it from pump to output shaft and add additional colored pictures and info I find along the way. Your detailed images are amazing like everyone has said.

 

[Indycars]

I captured the thread thru October 30, 2013 and made it into a PDF. If that will help, you can have the PDF file?

Got to get ready for work now, will check in tomorrow.

 

[jelco]

That would be great. Thanks!

I talked to a mechanic friend today and he said “oh, stay away from 200-4Rs, you’ll have a bunch of problems with them when you have more horsepower and they’ll never be as robust as the 700-R4s.” I’ve heard someone else say he’d never use a 700-r4 again. Just goes to show you people put a lot of weight on anecdotal evidence and personal mishaps. From what I’ve read both can be built to work well with a lot of horsepower. Knowledge is power.

 

[T-Test]

That would be great. Thanks!

I talked to a mechanic friend today and he said “oh, stay away from 200-4Rs, you’ll have a bunch of problems with them when you have more horsepower and they’ll never be as robust as the 700-R4s.” I’ve heard someone else say he’d never use a 700-r4 again. Just goes to show you people put a lot of weight on anecdotal evidence and personal mishaps. From what I’ve read both can be built to work well with a lot of horsepower. Knowledge is power.

Your last statement is very true.

Knowledge is power.

And NEVER trust another racer to tell you the truth about anything as they want to win at your expense. Mechanics are a bias ed bunch also. Some like this and some like that so they form opinions, we all know what that means.

 

[jelco]

Trying to put together the overrun clutch assembly #510 I tore the inner seal #512. I used too big of a wire with the tool I made and I didn’t use enough finesse.
Where do you suggest purchasing miscellaneous transmission parts like seals?

Also pictured is the transtar deluxe kit, their best kit, some price it at $250 but I got it for $100. It doesn’t have plastic washers, like what I think is #643 thrust washer, pictured. I didn’t want to replace all the bushings if they seemed good so I thought the $589 CK performance kit would be more than I needed but I don’t know if I should have gotten it anyway, strangely it doesn’t come with the extra wide band #601.