45/70 and other .458 caliber rifle Reloading

rlphvac

solid fixture here in the forum
Grumpy I have another question on reloading for my 45/70 its a new Henry that I have run .458 bullets through both cast and plated some Hornaday 350g interlock #4503 and some Hornaday FTX 325g #45015 both .458 diameter and I've run some 450g cast bullets through it all shot good but the 325 FTX have a pointy tip that didn't like to cycle because of the tip so I need to make them a little shorter but I might just feed them 1 at a time to be safe from the pressure change of shortening them below book length anyway my question is I have cast a bunch of 45/70 bullets 405g its a Lee mold # 90374 that I used the bullets as cast are coming out from .456 to.459 the Lyman sizer die I have is .457 do you think that they will work this is just for shooting fun if I decide to hunt with it I will get better molds to fit the gun but you know right now is not the time to buy anything
 
I never got any cast bullet in a 45/70 that was sized smaller than .459 to shoot consistently accurate groups
personally ID find a .459 sizer,
most rifles chambered for 45/70, 450 marlin and 458 win, have rifling twist rates that seem to favor gas check bullet designs in cast bullet weights in the 330-405 grain bullet weights, cast bullets in .458 caliber rifles usually provide both accurate loads and lethality comparable to the better jacketed bullets available, when used on most of American big game. like elk and deer hogs etc. which is something sub .375 caliber cast bullets don't always provide.
keep in mind heavy cast bullets were used over almost all of the westward expansion in AMERICA,
and decimated millions of bison in the 1700-1900 time frame. cheap and easily available,

mil surplus 45/70 ammo was commonly used in the 1875-1900 time frame,
on most of Americas big game and for homestead defensive use by pioneers and market hunters for decades.

marlin_444_rifle.jpg

generally best accuracy is found in the 1600fps-2000 fps ranges
as velocities much faster , using cast bullets at times tends to cause bore leading issues in a few guns and slower reduces the spin stabilization, but of course rifling depth, number of lands, and twist rate VARIES
you really can't go wrong with a marlin, marlin/ruger, chambered in 45/70 or browning BLR 450 marlin caliber rifle.
the vast majority of the big game I hunt has been in rolling hill, and aspen or conifer filled canyon country where shots over 150 yards are very rare!
I've used both cartridges and rifles on and off for several decades, I purchased my first marlin 45 /70 in the late 70s and my BROWNING BLR chambered in 450 marlin in 2000,
I've found the hard cast gas check 350-400 grain bullets, or jacketed bullets of similar weight, work very well in either rifle.
the BLR has consistently had marginally better accuracy, but nothing you hunt or you will ever know any difference , I just sight in to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards and go hunting, its proven to be devastating on ELK and hogs and a few deer.
mid range powders like IMR 3031, H4895 and WW 748, and imr 4064 have all proven to produce good accurate loads,
I might be in the minority but I prefer the BLR, over the marlin as its a tiny bit more accurate and to me just feels better in my hands.
thickt8.jpg



https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=46-405B

btw
50 grains of IMR3031 under a 405 gas check bullet (linked)and a 215 fed primer in my 450 marlin chambered BLR has proven to be exceptionally consistent and accurate in my BLR


almost ideal in 45/70 and 450 marlin


btw most rifles chambered for bore sizes like 358, 375, .416, .430, and 458 caliber cartridges respond well to properly cast bullet use.
obviously rifle twist rates and bullet designs must match fairly well, to get the best results and velocity's kept under 2000 fps tend to produce decent accuracy
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-458-caliber-rifles.4672/page-2#post-96422
if your punching paper targets the bullet design and weight matters little.
deer-anatomya.jpg

bloodc.jpg


keep in mind more than 80% of all big game is shot and killed at well UNDER 200 yards and
a 330 grain-405 grain cast bullet from a 45/70 or a 450 marlin or reduced loads in a 458 win in the 1600fps-2000 fps velocity range are very lethal out to 300 plus yards on any big game in the hands of a consistent shot that understands the games anatomy and bullet trajectory
and many rifles like the Ruger, and Browning single shots ,
and many bolt actions,
(keep in mind they make both 45/70 and 458 win chamberings)
have twist rates will also stabilize the 420-530 grain cast bullets that can be pushed to similar velocities,
that will still be lethal with a precise shot placement on game,
out well past 1200 yards.
keep in mind the game you hunt with a 45/70 and cast bullets, effects the selection of bullet weight, velocity and range ,
you'll use it at, all mater, deer are easy to kill,
and a 330-350 grain bullet is ok, used on deer,
especially at the typical 70-120 yard range's ,
and it will work out at 150-250 yards in skilled hands,
even at lower 1600fps-1800 fps velocity if you place shots well,
but range estimation and drop, become an issue for most hunters past 250 yards.

but ELK are a tougher proposition,
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/
and a 400-460 grain bullet at 1800 fps-2200 fps is a better match, and a 45/70 450 marlin or reduced loads in a 458 win,
are best used at closer ranges, like under 120-150 yards if possible,
(keep in mind in thick conifer and aspen, shots at elk are generally under 100 yards in my experience),
and a 400-430 grain bullet in a 45/70-or-450 marlin ,
or a similar load in a 458 win single shot or bolt action,
at closer to 1900 fps-2200 fps)
are a better choice than a 350 grain, bullet at lower velocity,
in my opinion, on elk, power is less of an issue than precise shot placement
especially at ranges exceeding 200 yards,
where proper shot placement and a knowledge of the games anatomy and your rifles trajectory are more critical.

btw if your using a 458 win:rolleyes:
5107.jpg

a good reduced load is a 400 grain gas check ,cast bullet over
about 67 grains of rl7 or 69 grains of imr 3031,
seat out to longest length that easily chambers and feeds, fed or win mag primers preferred this tends to get you in the 1950-2000 fps range with a 400 grain bullet
this provides a very noticeable reduction in recoil and ammo cost compared to factory 500 grain cartridges, without any loss in lethality on ELK in the dense thickets at typical under 150 yard ranges


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bore-size-and-rifling.15674/#post-95843

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-with-bullets-you-made.6802/page-2#post-85697

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

https://thebarreloutlet.com/twist-calculator/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...el-twist-rate/

want a plinking load, a 350 grain bullet in a 45/70 over 12 grains of blue-dots devastating on tin cans at 50-75 yards
load 45 grains of RL7 under that bullet and no hog or deer is safe!
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=46-350B

want to eat elk, load a 400 grain cast bullet in that 45/70, 450 marlin or 458 win , at 1800 fps
youll be well equipped
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=46-400C

your lead bullet casting heat and alloy both effect the cast bullet diameter
I prefer a 4%-5% tin and 95% ww alloy and ,
use gas check bullets cast so they look a bit frosted for consistency,

btw when I cast bullets, I try to run the lead temps up where I get a bit of a frosted,
006-Copydg.jpg

but Ive used lots of scrap lead from various sources that contained some antimony
some marinas sell scrap ballast lead reasonably

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?192192-How-does-alloy-mix-affect-casting-size

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/10297-composition-of-alloy-to-diameter-relationship/

 
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In our area the EPA is making the water company replace old lead water lines so I've been buying a lot of lead pipe off the scrap yard and he saves it for me I melt it down and pour into cupcake pans for future use I bet I have 300 pounds put away but the water pipe is more pure lead you can tell when melting it down its a lot cleaner that WW
 
Do you think that I can shoot these just to shoot until I can get another sizer die at .459
 
sure you can!
but consistent accuracy might be a bit less than ideal,
1"-2" 100 yard bench rest groups are possible with many rifles, especially if using gas check, cast bullets, in a 45/70, 450 marlin or 458 win using gas check cast bullets in the 330 grain-405 grain weight range
but smaller diameters generally result in a bit larger groups
but with the marginally smaller bullet diameter, the pressure will also be marginally lower

btw buy as much scrap lead as you can easily afford, it may become much harder to get in a few years as OBAMA closed all U.S.A. lead mines
I buy All the scrap lead and tin , I can find at a decent price

with commercial ammo being hard to locate and insanely expensive, its
one reason I find the 458 caliber rifles , chambered in cartridges like 45/70, 450 marlin, and 458 win ,
loaded with CAST GAS CHECK BULLETS, in the 350 grain to 500 grain weight ranges,
loaded at moderate 1600fps-2200 fps so damn attractive.


both my friends and I, have used this 405 grain gas check bullet mold and several almost identical molds in the marlin 45/70 for decades with excellent results, its accurate and very lethal if pushed to 1600fps-1800 fps in the marlin lever guns, IMR 3031, RL7 WW748 and IMR 4064 all work, but recoil is noticeable with heavy loads so several guys are looking for a 350-375 grain option. (thus potentially gaining a bit more velocity and a bit less recoil)

you can use bullets you cast, yourself, a wide range of powders and both have a very effective hunting rifle,
you can load ammo for for less than 50-65 cents a cartridge in most cases,
that can be used on damn near anything out to at least 200 yards.
this eliminate your dependence on commercial bullets and allows a far greater selection of powders
trust me when I tell you , from decades of experience,
that a hard cast bullet in the 350-405 grain weight range out of a 45/70 or 458 win,
is devastating on deer & elk if you know the anatomy and can place shots consistently!
5107.jpg

458win2.jpg

a bolt action or falling block single shot using cast bullets chambered in 458 win or 458 LOTT,
might look out of place in the elk woods, but a hard cast gas check bullet is very
effective, and ranges in the aspen thickets rarely exceed 200 yards, making them a useful option
thickt8.jpg
 
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you certainly don't need this amount of power, that the 458 caliber rifles allow ,
but several guys I hunt with use 458 win ruger single shots
300px-450Marlin.JPG

my browning BLR in caliber 450 marlin is a very accurate rifle and has rapidly become a favorite dark timber hunt companion
cropped-img_1840.jpg



Browning-BLR-LT-WT-Stainless-450-Marlin_100963183_329_507C9FFC6E8AB211.jpg

100761871_323_35D026FDF0D82A02.jpg

my BLR looks very similar to this blue steel version above
and marlin 45/70 and browning BLR rifles with consistent success!
there's a trade -off being made in most cases, in lower velocity, less expansion and deeper penetration,
as you increase the bullet mass/weight, and hand load to near max velocity in a 45/70 or 450 marlin.
I've read of several accounts and personally seen the softer core jacketed bullets fail to exit on deer and elk
and while devastatingly lethal, the speer 350-400 grain bullets have in some cases,
fragmented after impact when shot at close range,
loaded to max velocity, the 350 grain hornady round nose bullet has a better reputation,
for not fragmenting, but its no more lethal. than the speer bullets they both work well.
jacketed bullets tend to have softer lead cures than the cast and gas check bullets do.
Ive generally found a well made cast bullet easily out penetrates most soft point jacketed bullet designs,
but with less expansion so less shock and potentially less internal damage done to the game,
at least for the first few inches of the anatomy hit!

keep in mind 60 million bison, and millions of deer and elk were eliminated over a very short time span,
in the mid to late 1800s mostly with cartridges using cast bullets,
before game management laws limited market hunters
and both lethality and accuracy was very good.
you don,t need high velocity to have devastating lethality with heavy bullets.
(just some related info,
cast bullets from a 45/70 (much lower black powder velocity)
(were tested by the
military back in the late 1800s) and
(would easily penetrate 6" plus of pine boards at 1000 yards)

(thats more than enough to shoot through one man and the man behind him also)
keep in mind the 450 marlin chambered BLR is significantly stronger, action.than the marlin lever guns and far stronger than the military trap door rifles in the 1800s)
a load of 50 grains of IMR 3031 under a 400 grain bullet in the 450 marlin BLR has proven to be a very good elk hunt load,
the same 400 grain bullet in the marlin 45/70 maxes out at a marginally slower 45 grains of IMR 3031
the 350 grain bullets are better on deer as they can be pushed faster and shoot flatter but expand noticeably faster on impact
this is ideal on lighter muscle/bone deer.(it works on elk lung shots but its not ideal on shoulder shots or bears)
I've generally used the hard cast gas check bullets in 350-405 grain,
and 405 grain jacketed remington bullets that are very hard to locate, remington may have stopped selling those.
the hard cast generally exit but don't expand as nicely as the 405 remington jacketed bullets do consistently,
(keep in mind I have used both the BROWNING BLR 450 marlin chambered rifle and marlin 45/70 lever actions
and game I shot at/and took, mostly at ranged over 60-70 yards and under 180-210 yards)
If you select a 458 win or 458 lott, be aware the higher velocity will cause the jacketed bullets to expand faster yet, thus a 400-450 grain hard cast gas check bullet might be well advised.
most of us sight these rifles to hit 3" high at 100 yards, and shoulder & lung shots are preferred.

350 grain jacketed soft core

350 grain jacketed soft core harder jacket

400 grain jacketed soft jacket

the SWEET SPOT for cast bullets weight in a 45/70 and 450 marlin, in my experience, thats matching both the rifling twist stabilization and powder capacity falls into the 330-430 grain weight range and a gas check design is strongly suggested.

350 grain cast gas check



400 grain cast gas check

450 grain hard cast gas check, ideal for 458 win/458 LOTT
but I would keep velocity in the 1800-2000 fps range for elk


 
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this mold appears to be close to ideal
46-365B-D.png


one of the guys Ive hunted with for decades ordered an accurate cast bullet mold to use with his BROWNING BLR in caliber 450 marlin
he wanted to cast bullets for this years up-coming elk hunt and felt this design had a great deal of potential.
this is the same BLR, model, in caliber 450 marlin, Ive used the last few years on hog and deer hunts with very consistent results.
we have both found that the cost of jacketed bullets has gotten noticeably higher and the cast bullets tend to be every bit as accurate even at similar velocity, its rapidly becoming a favorite hunting rifle.
Id bet I can crack 2000 fps with this projectile and still get groups you can brag about!
every choice you make is a compromise in some area of its use!
he, said he felt the 365 grain gas check , hard cast bullet would provide the slightly flatter trajectory and deep penetration he wanted, I ask him to cast a few hundred extra so I could test a few loads in my BLR/ 450 marlin, as I also looked over the design and feel hes on the correct path to finding what might be a very good option.
a properly cast and lubed hard cast gas check bullet has no jacket to peal back and the alloy being harder than a jacketed projectiles core tends to penetrate very well and consistently and the lubed cast & gas check bullets have lower friction, and produce much less bore/rifling wear, its common for rifles using cast bullets to have the bores last 3-4 times as long as those shooting jacketed bullets, even at times with the same or a bit higher muzzle velocity.
Its been my experience when using hard cast gas check 405 grain bullets in a 45/70 that bullets zip through and exit, even if larger bones or extensive muscle are penetrated, even on an elk having minimal expansion, but still having expanded enough to have a very noticeable effect on the game hit, but still providing excellent lethality on big game.
off a steady bench rest my BLR can consistently keep under a 1.5" hundred yard 3 shot group, easily accurate enough to hunt with confidence.
I mentioned this to several other guys I know who hunt with 458 win, 45/70 and 450 marlin chambered rifles and ID bet accurate arms is going to get some duplicate orders in the immediate future, as most of us would rather cast our own bullets than have issues ordering cast bullets.
keep in mind shots over 250 yards are very rare, and shots taken at well under 100 yards are far more common.
this is where the 458 caliber rifles provide and continue too provide excellent and consistent results, THICK TIMBER IN THE REMOTE CANYONS ELK LOVE!
and for some reason there's a bit of extra satisfaction using cast bullets you personally made!
( I know I've rarely used a jacketed bullet in any magnum revolver , I hunt with in several decades)
 
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Powder​

Charge​

Max. Pressure​

Barrel 23.6''​

Barrel 18.9''​

WeightFRpsi% *V(0) fpszV(0) fpsz
Accurate 2015Min: *.**81.0%4351170%2228100%2146100%
Max: *.**90.1%5565189%2421100%2336100%
Accurate 2200Min: *.**82.0%4077065%220594%210692%
Max: *.**92.8%5610190%248497%237995%
Accurate 2230Min: *.**81.0%4438271%228798%219296%
Max: *.**88.4%5573889%247499%237998%
Accurate 2460Min: *.**81.0%4470172%230399%220598%
Max: *.**88.4%5595690%2490100%239599%
Accurate 2495Min: *.**81.0%3876962%2218100%2129100%
Max: *.**93.9%5610190%2516100%2425100%
Accurate 2520Min: *.**81.0%3836262%222898%213397%
Max: *.**93.6%5591290%2543100%244199%
Accurate 4064Min: *.**86.0%3769560%221599%211998%
Max: *.**98.0%5254784%2490100%2395100%
ADI AR 2206HMin: *.**81.0%3818861%219295%209693%
Max: *.**95.0%5608690%253098%242597%
ADI AR 2208Min: *.**86.0%3763760%216994%207092%
Max: *.**97.7%5157583%243897%233996%
ADI AR 2219Min: *.**81.0%4863178%2379100%2287100%
Max: *.**85.6%5569489%2487100%2398100%
Alliant AR-CompMin: *.**81.0%3856662%2218100%2133100%
Max: *.**93.7%5570989%2500100%2411100%
Alliant Reloder-10xMin: *.**81.0%4678975%2283100%2198100%
Max: *.**87.7%5608690%2431100%2346100%
Alliant Reloder-15Min: *.**84.0%3760860%220894%210392%
Max: *.**97.7%5425987%253398%242896%
Alliant Reloder-17Min: *.**92.0%3749260%228795%217292%
Max: *.**97.9%4474472%245497%233394%
Hodgdon BenchmarkMin: *.**81.0%4204667%219898%211397%
Max: *.**91.4%5584090%2444100%234999%
Hodgdon BL-C2Min: *.**81.0%3781161%223496%213394%
Max: *.**93.8%5578289%256999%246798%
Hodgdon CFE223Min: *.**90.0%4152467%233694%222892%
Max: *.**97.8%5302685%255697%244495%
Hodgdon H322Min: *.**81.0%4185867%2251100%216299%
Max: *.**91.2%5591290%2490100%2398100%
Hodgdon H335Min: *.**81.0%4754376%2372100%228099%
Max: *.**86.1%5573889%2507100%2411100%
Hodgdon H380Min: *.**91.0%4290269%231694%221592%
Max: *.**97.9%5233084%248796%238294%
Hodgdon H4198Min: *.**81.0%5106882%2300100%2218100%
Max: *.**84.2%5576789%2375100%2293100%
Hodgdon VARGETMin: *.**86.0%3753660%216294%206492%
Max: *.**97.9%5127182%243897%233395%
IMR 3031Min: *.**84.0%3752160%2228100%213399%
Max: *.**97.7%5441887%2530100%2434100%
IMR 4064Min: *.**87.0%3760860%215694%206492%
Max: *.**97.9%5079281%241897%231696%
IMR 4198Min: *.**81.0%4731176%2244100%2172100%
Max: *.**87.4%5592790%2379100%2300100%
IMR 4895Min: *.**84.0%3759460%222195%211993%
Max: *.**97.7%5554989%256298%245497%
IMR 8208 XBRMin: *.**81.0%3995864%220597%211096%
Max: *.**93.3%5611590%250099%240598%
Lovex D073.4Min: *.**81.0%4631174%231399%222198%
Max: *.**87.3%5589890%2470100%237999%
Lovex D073.5Min: *.**81.0%4430971%229399%219897%
Max: *.**88.7%5595690%2490100%239599%
Lovex D073.6Min: *.**82.0%3743460%220898%210697%
Max: *.**95.6%5575389%2536100%243899%
Lovex S060Min: *.**81.0%3910263%213996%204794%
Max: *.**94.4%5595690%244898%235697%
Lovex S062Min: *.**84.0%3763760%217597%207795%
Max: *.**97.8%5402787%248499%238898%
Norma 202Min: *.**81.0%3752160%217299%207798%
Max: *.**95.6%5608690%2510100%2411100%
Norma 203BMin: *.**85.0%3763760%221195%211393%
Max: *.**97.7%5337486%252098%241197%
Ramshot TACMin: *.**87.0%4651475%233694%223892%
Max: *.**92.7%5568089%249396%239294%
Ramshot TerminatorMin: *.**81.0%4293169%225196%215694%
Max: *.**90.1%5573889%247798%237997%
Ramshot Wild BoarMin: *.**81.0%3837762%221895%211993%
Max: *.**93.8%5582590%254398%244497%
ReloadSwiss RS 40Min: *.**81.0%4377270%227499%218298%
Max: *.**89.4%5588390%2484100%238899%
ReloadSwiss RS 52Min: *.**87.0%3750760%226097%215995%
Max: *.**97.8%5138782%253999%243198%
ReloadSwiss RS 60Min: *.**92.0%3744960%229395%217292%
Max: *.**97.7%4430971%245497%232995%
Rottweil R 901Min: *.**81.0%4181467%220899%211998%
Max: *.**92.1%5604390%2461100%2372100%
Rottweil R 902Min: *.**82.0%3753660%214297%204795%
Max: *.**97.2%5597090%248499%238898%
Rottweil R 903Min: *.**90.0%3773961%222896%212694%
Max: *.**97.7%4736976%242598%231696%
Shooters World Match RifleMin: *.**82.0%3743460%220898%210697%
Max: *.**95.6%5575389%2536100%243899%
Shooters World PrecisionMin: *.**84.0%3763760%217597%207795%
Max: *.**97.8%5402787%248499%238898%
Shooters World Tactical RifleMin: *.**81.0%4680475%230698%221197%
Max: *.**87.0%5598590%245499%235998%
SNPE Vectan SP 10Min: *.**81.0%4886378%2388100%229399%
Max: *.**85.3%5559389%2493100%2402100%
SNPE Vectan SP 11Min: *.**88.0%3753660%224194%213392%
Max: *.**97.8%4867578%247497%236595%
SNPE Vectan SP 7Min: *.**86.0%4372970%229794%219892%
Max: *.**94.0%5578289%250796%240595%
SNPE Vectan SP 9Min: *.**82.0%3752160%218295%208793%
Max: *.**96.2%5598590%253698%243497%
Somchem S321Min: *.**81.0%4296069%227098%217296%
Max: *.**89.7%5576789%249099%239598%
Somchem S335Min: *.**81.0%4713776%2310100%2221100%
Max: *.**87.1%5584090%2448100%2362100%
Somchem S341Min: *.**81.0%3744960%216595%206792%
Max: *.**94.3%5608690%250398%240297%
Somchem S355Min: *.**86.0%3760860%220896%211094%
Max: *.**98.0%5189583%249398%238897%
Somchem S365Min: *.**93.0%3746360%232697%221594%
Max: *.**97.7%4238068%244198%232096%
Vihtavuori N130Min: *.**81.0%4419371%2195100%2116100%
Max: *.**89.7%5598590%2382100%2303100%
Vihtavuori N133Min: *.**81.0%3916063%2126100%2047100%
Max: *.**94.0%5566589%2402100%2320100%
Vihtavuori N135Min: *.**87.0%3762360%2175100%208799%
Max: *.**97.8%5131482%2418100%2333100%
Vihtavuori N140Min: *.**86.0%3769560%215997%206495%
Max: *.**97.7%5217084%242899%233698%
Vihtavuori N150Min: *.**90.0%3771060%218897%209695%
Max: *.**97.7%4638374%236299%226497%
Vihtavuori N530Min: *.**81.0%3976964%219897%210696%
Max: *.**92.8%5605790%249099%239298%
Vihtavuori N540Min: *.**82.0%3766660%221199%211698%
Max: *.**95.3%5569489%2539100%2441100%
Winchester 6.5 StaBallMin: *.**94.0%3772460%219595%209092%
Max: *.**97.7%4226468%229396%219294%
Winchester 748Min: *.**81.0%4085766%229798%219597%
Max: *.**91.2%5563689%2562100%245799%


Reloading data for caliber .458 Lott with .458 | 400gr | Speer FN bullet.
 

 



many people who don't reload, don't understand how amazingly versatile the 458 LOTT cambered rifle,
can be made through hand loading, you could easily duplicate the power levels of everything from a 44 mag handgun
(300 grain bullets at 1250 fps)
to a 458 LOTT through careful loading of various projectiles and powder charges, and you can certainly lower recoil significantly yet still maintain hot 45/70 or 450 marlin power levels with ( cast gas check, bullets, 405 grain bullets at 1950 fps) making the 458 lot chambered rifle a great thick timber elk rifle, or down load so you use 350 grain hard cast bullets to about 1700 fps for deer and hogs
brass can be reloaded almost indefinitely , compared to full power loads at those lower power levels, yet accuracy can be maintained with careful hand loading
 
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