do you cast and hunt with bullets you made

[grumpyvette]

how many guys use personally cast bullets from the custom bullet mold companys?
back in the day, we could get LINOTYPE ingots fairly cheap, now that is not commonly available
now I use cast bullets almost exclusively in my hunting revolvers and several 458 caliber rifles , because it both significantly reduces cost and once your throwing a .357, 40, .416, 44,45,58,.62 caliber projectiles, its simple physics and a documented fact that,the larger the bore diameter, your dealing with,given a well designed projectile , the less critical small casting flaws will be to accuracy.
bullets with a sectional density of between .230-.310 are generally preferred, in most cases .260--.310 are closer to ideal, and of course you,ll need to match the rifle twist rate too the projectile design and velocity , and use the correct projectile design for the velocity and metal alloy used.
remember precise shot placement and a knowledge of the opponents anatomy is critical to its effective use,
a 158-170 grain hard cast bullet , loaded to higher velocity in a 357 mag is very effective ,
in skilled hands as either a defensive tool or hunting weapon.
I've had zero issues using an 8" S&W revolver on hogs and deer out to 50-70 yards ,
with those loads, and its the combo my B.I.L. preferers to hunt with
RIFLE TWIST
http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi
sectional density
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/density.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm

Chapter 3 - Alloy Selection and Metallurgy, Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners - Glen E. Fryxell

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp?year=all

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/

theres a good many applications where cast bullets even at reduced velocities will do excellent work, I don,t know why but I just get a bit more satisfaction in using a revolver or rifle with bullets and hand loads I personally fabricated. I don,t remember using my 357,44 or 445 revolvers with anything else in years, and my 45/70 was used almost exclusively with hard cast gas check bullets.
and the elk and deer it killed died just as fast as with any jacketed projectiles Ive used.
and yeah! Ive spent a small fortune on custom molds and yes there are some really good ones out there!

if your going to learn too hunt with a hand-gun or rifle, learning too hand load and in the case of hand guns especially learning too cast and size and lube lead alloy projectiles is going to help you both gain skills and add to your practice time and ammo availability,by potentially reducing costs
If you find your not getting good groups with cast bullets look into changing the bullet, design your using , sizing, lube powder,load, velocity range, etc before assuming your gun just won,t shoot cast bullets. I had a rather similar experience, the first time I tried cast bullets, but my mentor had enough experience to change components until I found what worked,,use of gas checks,or lube or powder charge etc. can easily change the group size
I tried 300 gain gas check bullets in my 44 marlin carbine and get amazingly tight groups in the 1"-1.5" range off a good bench rest at 100 yards, with several powders, but the same bullet used without gas checks produced groups in the 7" range
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... pe=Handgun

if you handgun hunt Like I DO you need to watch this video

I was out behind my sons home in texas killing a few coke cans at 30-40 yards with my 357 mag revolver, one of my sons friends suggested I might need a pistol scope even though my hit ratio was easily 80%-90% and yeah I might need more practice , but if you easily punch holes in a 2.2" wide coke...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

just a question, why not cast and lube and size your own projectiles?
Ive tried a few dozen different brands and types of commercial cast bullets ,
over the decades and Ive yet to find any available that are really cast with a hard yet not brittle alloy
thus I cast my own, in my experience you want a projectile that expands slowly ,
but not one that is so hard its likely to fracture or break-up if it hits bone.
95% wheel weights plus 5% pure tin is in my experience close to ideal
it rivets out on impact marginally well, but won,t lead bores and the projectile penetrates very well on game,
bullets I've recovered that consistently chronograph-ed in the 1400-1800 fps range,
from various rifles and a few pistols rarely showed that much expansion,
(most exit and are not recovered) I,ve shot diagonally through dozens of deer and hogs ,
and a couple elk with out recovering a projectile as most exit.

in most cases you get exits, and excellent accuracy once you've developed proper loads matching the fire arms characteristics and preferences
yeah commercial alloys are expensive and finding a source of lead and tin is becoming much harder lately, but its still an option,
yes it requires extra and semi expensive molds lube/sizer and a furnace, yeah it can be a P.I.T.A. at times,
but its also far cheaper in the long term, and you get to fabricate projectiles that exactly match your firearms requirements,
not ideal but it works
https://www.rotometals.com/1-to-20-bullet-alloy-alloy-95-lead-5-tin/
this tends to be decent
https://www.rotometals.com/linotype-alloy-alloy-5-pounds-4-tin-12-antimony-and-84-lead/

https://www.rotometals.com/bullet-casting-alloys/
I provided the links for those few members who may not have other sources
I've over decades,fortunately ,I had the contacts and foresight,
too purchased hundreds of lbs of sail boat ballast ingots,
telephone cable lead sheath , used wheel weights, etc.
back when a lb sold for 10 cents a lb or less.
yes theres zero doubt commercial alloy is expensive,
but there are other sourced for suitable alloy components,
it just takes research and work to acquire
but thats not always the case
on my 45/70 gas check slugs produced 2" 100 yard groups and non-gas checked bullets of the same 405 grain weight over 45 grains of RL7 and very similar design produce,
nearly the same groups, but a bit more bore leading ,at least in that rifle with those loads,
the difference is you can shoot the gas check design all day, the non-gas check require you clean the bore about every 50 shots or accuracy suffers
btw most rifles chambered for bore sizes like 358, 375, .416, .430, and 458 caliber cartridges respond well to properly cast bullet use.
obviously rifle twist rates and bullet designs must match fairly well, to get the best results and velocity's kept under 2000 fps tend to produce decent accuracy
http://www.gunweek.com/2004/feature1201.html

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... le&Source=

theres a ton of useful info in the sub links

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/bullethardness/

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/tinhighgradebar.htm

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMo ... tation.pdf

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/645810 ... e-110-volt

basic cheap melter

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/698819 ... llet-molds
mold handles

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

THESE 260-270 grain bullet molds produce a great compromise providing good accuracy and penetration but a bit lower recoil than the 300-310 grain bullet designs that provide a bit deeper penetration in the 44 mag and 445 DWSM revolver

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-165MG

357 mag cast hunting bullet (link above)

http://www.justbulletmolds.com/lee-bullet-molds/

IF YOUR LOADING FOR A 44 MAG REVOLVER ,properly sized to about 1 thousandth over your bore size , cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin and well lubed, with hornady gas checks crimped in place,these NEI bullets are very accurate loaded over 21 grains of H110 in my revolvers
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/506726 ... -gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/122093 ... -gas-check

Ive got at least 15 44 caliber molds but the more I cast and hunt the more I find the 300 grain bullets are most effective, and while its nice to have the fancier molds like NEI and LBT,HOCH,SEAKO etc. the rcbs and lyman designs work remarkably well and don,t cost nearly as much and theres been dozens of rather dead deer and hogs pass thru our kitchen to verify that they work, in both my 44 mag revolvers and marlin carbine

heres a partial list of potential mold suppliers

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html

http://www.hochmoulds.com/

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bulletDesign.php

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/main/

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/

http://www.noebulletmolds.com/

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/

http://www.pauljonesmolds.com/

http://accuratemolds.com/bulletDesign.php

http://www.magmaengineering.com/bullet-molds/

http://www.mp-molds.com/index.php?pr=Molds

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.p ... ath=1_5_12

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=2286&p=6103#p6103


MOLDS CAN BE MODIFIED TO HOLLOW POINT DESIGN
http://www.hollowpointmold.com/inset-ba ... re=650#650

youll ocasionally run into some one who tells you a 44 mags not powerful enough to hunt with, thats total B.S.!

I went thru a very similar scene with an obviously new too revolver hunting guy, and watching a clueless sales guy trying to sell a 500 S&W to this guy who admitted he had never shot anything larger than a 357 mag, who was looking to purchase a hunting revolver for hunting hogs here in Florida.
I suggested he buy a good 44 mag with at least a 6" and preferably a 7.5" barrel.
(something Ive done for well over 43 years now with a 44 mag, revolver)
44 mag ammos a great deal less expensive and theres no hog that will shrug off a well placed hit from a properly loaded 44 revolver.
the clerk tried to say that the 500 S&W hits a lot harder (which while true) is hardly the same thing as saying the 44 mag won,t easily do the job.
these guys behind the counter at my local bass pro, are obviously are either clueless in real world experience,or get a cut on the sales total.
Ill make your search for a good hunting load in 44 mag simple!, I tried dozens of combos and the two best I found use the same LEE 310 grain cast gas check bullet
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0000690858
over either 21 grains of H110 or 11.5 grains of blue dot, the H110 is slightly faster the blue dot powders slower velocity is still useful and a bit more accurate, the difference is very minor in either case, but keep in mind theres 7000 grains in a pound of powder, so use BLUE DOT for target loads as theres 600 cartridges worth per pound while the larger charge of h110 REDUCES A POUND TO JUST OVER 1/2 THAT OR 300 SHOTS PER POUND, BOTH POWDERS COST ABOUT THE SAME
just pick a load pushed to over 1300 fps with at least a 240 grain bullet
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

heres the LEE 310 grain bullet I use in my 44 mag (ABOVE)
here below is a couple common 240-250 grain lyman and RCBS cast bullet designs that work reasonably well but I finf the LEE 310 more accurate and more effective on game

if you handload, 44 caliber for hunting a good cast /gas check bullet with a wide melplat that weights close to 270-300 grains, and cast from 96% wheel weights and 5% tin is what I,ve used for decades, I seldom fail to get exit wounds and rarely have game run far
both blue dot and H110 seem to provide good results in the 44 mag, blue dot gives up a bit of velocity but not much, and I seem to get better accuracy and many more cartridges per pound
just a tip from experience learned, size cast bullets at least .001 larger than bore diameter,
most pistol caliber carbines are reasonably accurate with typical copper jacketed 225-260 grain bullets,
but I vastly prefer the increased penetration, and far lower cost of heavy cast bullets,
in the 290-310 grain weight range.(but they (310 grain in 44 mag) (300 grain in 45 colt)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690359/double-cavity-mold-c452-300-rf
must be sized, lubed and loaded to near top velocity)
before you purchase a 45 colt or 44 mag lever action ,check the rifles twist rate
I've hunted with a marlin 44 mag 1894 for 4 decades, in every case I tested the faster twist rates seem to work better with cast bullet designs
my rifles very accurate with heavy cast bullets but only at near max velocity,
and the twist rate is barely adequate to keep the preferred 310 grain hard cast bullets stable
you need a full 21 grain charge of H110 powder
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690858/double-cavity-mold-c430-310-rf
twist rates near 1/20 are much preferred , for better stability,
over slower twist rates in the 1/36 range and the rifles came with both/either,
twist rates at various times over the last few decades

 

[grumpyvette]

Ive had far better, and more consistent results with the 35 caliber and larger bullets sized and lubed to.001 over bore size, than smaller sizes, I have a few 30 cal molds and loads that work really well at low plinking velocities, but once you start exceeding about 1600fps accuracy gets rather inconsistent.
regardless of bore size , bullets sized to only bore diam. don,t tend to be as accurate, and gas check bullets with lots of lube grooves do tend to be more accurate on average
I generally cast 95% wheel weights ,5% pure tin , and cast hot enough to look slightly frosted and dropped into a 7 gallon bucket full of water from the mold
http://handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=38

example the mold above is very accurate in my 358 win at 1500fps

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=1d1fff8f1cbf7d1f32c97104f242ca86fef3983f

http://www.justbulletmolds.com/lee-bullet-molds/
not as accurate

very accurate, as long as sized and lubed correctly and not pushed past 1800fps

just a bit of info, for those who don,t hunt much with hard cast bullets and think the factory jacketed hollow points are the perfect answer.
when I started out hunting with a hand gun in the late 1960s and early 1970s casting your own projectiles was almost a BLACK ART in many peoples opinion, I had mostly used speer 3/4 jacket 240 grain 44 cal bullets as they were dirt cheap and accurate with full loads , but had several large hogs where the bullets impacted and expanded very rapidly, and shed jackets , so I swapped to hornady 240 grain 44 cal but those were at the time about 30% more expensive and when I was making about $2.10 cents an hour that was rather expensive as I shot a great deal, a old guy I knew introduced me to casting 260-280 grain hard cast 44 caliber bullets from wheel weights and Linotype mixed about 70%/30% both of which were easy to get cheaply back then ,it resulted an a very hard alloy that barely expanded, but penetrated very well, Id had a few hogs drop and get back-up using jacketed, but those hard cast zip thru and proved to be far more dependable perpetrators and even more accurate, and I had better average results.
deer were tending to run a bit further occasionally hit with hard cast bullets shot thru the heart/lungs but I never got long trail jobs which I had occasionally gotten with jacketed
over the last 40 plus years I found theres no big game a good 270-310 grain hard cast from a 7.5"-10" barrel 44 mag loaded over a stiff load of H110 won,t kill.
while I got several DRT kills with jacketed I also got some trailing jobs, but with lead hard cast , I got rather consistent short death runs then game dropping
as a result, I have not bothered loading jacketed hand gun hunting projectiles in several years.
a 44 loaded correctly will shoot nearly end to end on most hogs or deer.
yeah my accuracy has improved also, but I can,t remember getting many complete pass through shots with jacketed but they are almost standard with hard cast

http://www.neihandtools.com/ (decent quality but slow)

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/bullmol1.html (dirt cheap but fair/good quality)

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/ (decent quality iron molds . moderately priced)

http://www.mountainmolds.com/ (very good quality, reasonably fast delivery,
custom designs easily available )

http://www.huntingtons.com/bulletmoulds.html (decent quality iron molds . moderately priced slow to deliver and not everything advertised is available)

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMo ... tation.pdf

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0152660650

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/new-reloading-manuals.2379/#post-56752

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
since shoot a great deal with revolvers I tend to like cast bullets, as they are both far cheaper and I find more accurate,Ive used the NEI 171 hard cast for decades in my 357 mag and its a sure deer killer, my b.i.l uses 158 grain soft nose mostly
if you don,t want gas check cast bullets, the lyman versions good
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/635507 ... -wadcutter

If your loading a 357 mag for hunting you might want to keep in mind that the longer body cast bullet of 160-170-180 grain bullet weight and sized about .001 over bore diam. cast from a fairly hard alloy like the 95%wheel weights and 5% pure tin I use if well lubed are both very good perpetrators,very accurate in most revolvers and produce low wear on rifling and forcing cones, plus they are cheaper than jacketed bullets.
medium burn powders like blue dot tend to get more shots per pound and reduce flame cutting on the revolver yet still produce high velocity

If you check around youll find hand loading is a basic necessity with some calibers like the 35 Remington where the demand for ammo is fairly low and availability is rather hit or miss at times, I've seen times where you flat can,t locate factory ammo, this is one more in a nearly endless list of good reasons to HAND LOAD for the 35 remington.
you might consider a 200 grain hard cast as it makes bullet availability far easier, and yes you can very effectively kill deer with a 180-220 grain cast bullet from a 35 Remington

you might want to keep in mind that the 35 remington loaded with a good hard cast gas check 200 grain bullet pushed to about 2000 fps shoots considerably flatter and would be rather comparable in some ways to a marlin 44 mag loaded with the common 280-300 grain hard cast bullet in that either caliber would allow very inexpensive reloading and hunting and an easy 150 yard effective range and ammo you could fabricate rather cheaply

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... type=Rifle

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... -204-Grain

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160114 ... uctFinding
If you look around you'll quickly see that the 35 Remington factory ammo is as described, rather hard to locate, but this reminded me of one of the guys in our hunt club that purchased a marlin lever gun at a pawn shop decades ago , who really wanted a 357 mag version so he could shoot cast bullets dirt cheap, I told him at the time that the 35 rem was the better idea as the hand loaded cast bullets could be loaded to be just as accurate at the same velocity as the 357 mag carbine IF that's what he wanted to do, but he had the significant advantage with the larger case capacity to push heavier cast bullets to noticeable higher velocities should he choose to later. it should be obvious that some cartridges case capacity's and bore sizes, rifling twist rates and basic rifle designs are much more compatible with the use of cast bullets and the 35-45 caliber marlin lever actions just generally fall into that range.
Using 35. grains of IMR 3031, I get about 2000 fps with quite acceptable accuracy, simply cast from 95% WW alloy and 5% pure tin, size .359 and lube , seat the bullet out to the longest length that functions smoothly, if done correctly its proven to be very effective on white tail deer out well past 150 yards

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... -Flat-Nose

I hunt with a S&W 44 mag revolver rather frequently,
what a lot of guys don,t seem to grasp is that the bullet selected does ALL the work, and SHOT PLACEMENT and a KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAMES ANATOMY is critical
if you select a hollow point it will violently expand and cause a great deal of internal damage in the first 12"-14" in most cases but its not AS LIKELY to penetrate through bone or exit a larger animal as a hard cast bullet design,
if your hunting you need to select a projectile that will perform on impact as you intend it too, a 310 grain-340 grain, hard cast from a 44 mag will penetrate in most cases more that enough to exit an elk from most angles at ranges up too about 100 yards, even after breaking ribs , a typical hollow point
stops in a deers chest, both are lethal if correctly placed " a KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAMES ANATOMY is critical"
notice in the video the hollow point stopped inside of 18"-to- 24" of ballistic gel, a proper hard cast will drive through 30"-36" plus of the same ballistic gel, easily

skip to 11.20

just a comparison here of
commonly used revolver cast bullet hand loads
for hunting,Id point out that operator skill and experience matters a great deal.
even the properly hand loaded 357 mag will prove lethal to deer and hogs and even elk in skilled hands,
but its generally considered marginal on the larger game at ranges over 50 yards


357 mag .357 diam......170 grain projectile at 1400 fps 750 ft lbs
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

41 mag....410 diam.....210 grain projectile at 1400 fps 914 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=41 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
44 mag....430 diam.....310 grain projectile at 1300 fps 1160 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=300&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

these last five will take a great deal more practice as muzzle blast,and recoil levels are noticeable, the 480 rugers a great compromise between power and recoil

445 DWSM mag....430 diam.....310 grain projectile at 1570fps 1690 ft lbs

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun

454 cassul....454 diam.....335 grain projectile at 1500 fps 1675 ft lbs

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=454 Casull&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source

460 S&W......454 diam. 360 grain projectile at 1600 fps 2046 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=460 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

480 ruger.....476 diam......325 grain projectile at 1375 fps 1365 ft lbs

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

500 S&W.....500 diam. 400 grain projectile at 1600 fps 2274 ft lbs

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/

 

[grumpyvette]

http://www.rotometals.com/Bullet-Castin ... 7Qodcxopkg

http://www.texas-mac.com/Evaluations_an ... sters.html

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/ ... tester.pdf

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_4_Fluxing.htm

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/CRL/conservati ... File14.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#alloyrecipes

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm#chart

http://www.pnjresources.com/Hardness%20 ... Alloys.htm


most bullet lube acts like flux when melted, so re-melting previously lubed bullets is a good way to recycle and improve bullet alloy, yeah it smokes a great deal, but it also causes impurities in the led ally to surface where they are easily skimmed off as dross, thus improving the alloy that's left


READ THE LINKS
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

saw dust, with a bit of bees wax is a very effective flux, bees wax and paraffin both work, but bees wax in small amounts mixed with saw dust preferred, it can remove unwanted calcium,zink etc. flux and stir the alloy frequently to reduce contaminate content

casting alloy related

more than several weeks of good reading a great deal of bore leading results from UNDERSIZE bullets and IMPROPER lubes while I seldom exceed 2000fps with cast loads, most are under 1600fps) I can use wheel weight scrap alloyed with 5% pure tin by weight and decent lube and shoot hundreds of...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

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if you get the alloy correct and if your using wheel weights as your main source of lead,youll want to add about 5%-6% tin to 95% -94% wheel weights by weight youll avoid that brittle issue even casting so hot they look frosted and dropped strait into a 5 gallon bucket of water, strait wheel weights without tin tend to be brittle, the resulting bullet may be fairly hard but if you take and whack one with a 3 lb hammer that has the tin added to the alloy, on the concrete floor it rivets out and doesn,t shatter, most guys just don,t add enough tin.
as mentioned above adding the 5% tin to the alloy helps vastly reduce wrinkles in the cast bullets ,
it reduces bore lead fouling, a bit and helps with the bullet mass retention, in a single projectile,
and promotes riveting vs fracturing on impact with bone,
strait WW alloy works ok, in many guns below about 1400 fps ,
if your bullet design has lots of lube grooves and you use a quality lube
try to cast at abut 750-800 degrees, or just a bit below the temp they look totally frosted on the surface.
Ive killed dozens of hogs with my 44 mag using those 300 grain, bullets and almost all exit, but the few I find are riveted out a bit on the nose
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/s ... 22&GO.y=13

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm#tin

 

[grumpyvette]

"BUT GRUMPY? TIN costs $17 a pound is it really worth the extra expense"

IN MY OPINION, YES

http://www.rotometals.com/Tin-Ingot-s/27.htm

while I agree that adding 5% tin adds too the cost,
lets look at the cost vs benefits a bit before dismissing the option.
at the current listed $17 a pound its expensive, but keep in mind your using a 4%-5% mix , lets say you load your lyman 20 lb melter

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/162692 ... e-110-volt

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/s ... 22&GO.y=13

with 19 lbs of wheel weights and 1- lb of pure tin, to get your mix ratio, and your casting 300 grain 44 cal bullets, you cast till the pots 1/2 empty, youll make about 230 bullets at a rough cost of $8, or about $4.00 dollars per hundred before lube and gas checks are added, lets say $7-$9 per hundred ready to shoot, and if you did the job correctly these are very accurate hard gas check bullets that perform very well on game, I shot enough that casting bullets is well worth the savings as long as they perform as well or better than commercial designs and in my experience the lyman 300 grain cast with the correct alloy and gas checks that cost about 25%-50% of what commercial designs cost even with the tin added is well worth the effort

bullets with a slightly frosted appearance are the result of the mold being on the hotter side of ideal while your casting ,they tend to be both accurate and a bit smaller in diameter, if your bullets are shiny but flawed and wrinkled the mold needs to be hoter, its a balance that must be found, and going a bit hotter generally helps,but you don,t want heavily frosted bullets
the ones pictured below are close to ideal

btw if your going to cast bullets wait till the molds clean and hot then lightly spray the mold interior surface with moly spray, as it helps the cast bullets fall easily from the mold and makes casting process faster and more consistent.

VS paying about $40 PLUS per hundred for similar commercial bullets

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/953089 ... ck-box-of-50

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/198871 ... -gas-check

or about $25-$50 per hundred in jacketed designs

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/511437 ... -box-of-50

10mm Reloading Advice

Grumpy I just decided to try out a 10mm I picked up a Ruger SR1911 in 10mm. I have never shot a 10mm but I like what I've heard and read about them it feels good and the trigger is good I haven't shot it yet I picked a couple of factory ammo so I can shoot right away and I've ordered the dies...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

notice the much improved penetration of the lead alloy hard cast projectiles,
over the rapidly fragmenting hollow point jacketed bullet designs
this is something I see frequently, hollow points have more shock but usually fail to penetrate to even 1/2 the depth of a good hard cast projectile.
a pistol cartridge like a 357 mag or even a 44 mag may not have near the energy of a rifle but it has the ability ,
to shoot clear through large game like elk very easily and destroy vital anatomy if hard cast bullets are used

 

[grumpyvette]

If your having trouble casting clean edge bullets the lead and the mold may not be hot enough, its very common to have to cast 10-12 bullets that are rejects before the mold temp gets up to useful levels, and you need to develop a rhythm to keep the temp consistent, I generally find you pour excess lead into the mold quickly and let the excess form sprue, or slag on the cut plate,watch for it to change to solid before opening the cut plate then dump the bullets out, I usually use an old hammer handle to whack the cut plate then turn the mold and a mild tap releases the bullets to fall into a 7 gallon bucket full of water, with a towel in the bottom so all bullets cool as they descend then are cushioned as they hit bottom.
if you coat the mold with oil between uses it must be cleaned before its used, many guys use spray brake cleaner, but not all brake clean solvents work equally well,some leave a slight residue,dipping the mold in really hot soapy dish water with dawn soap and a good brushing with a soft tooth brush followed by some alcohol seems to clean fairly well then immediately heat the molds to remove moisture and coat the surface with mold release spray.
the guys are correct that the mold won,t cast well until its fairly hot , I generally want my bullets to look a bit frosted, and adding 5% tin to the mix of wheel weights helps both bullet strength and the mold fill out more uniformly.
lead melts at about 630F but won,t generally cast well until your up near or slightly above 680F, and in some alloys youll need about 700F degrees or a bit more

obviously the amount and type of contaminant in any scrap lead will effect the answer, as to what preps required before it can be used to cast bullets
and fluxing the molten alloy can remove some of the contaminants, a mix of hickory wood chips and paraffin used as a flux helps remove unwanted contaminants, but obviously flux where your getting a good breeze of constant fresh outside air because the flux will smoke
youll want to add chips and paraffin occasionally as the chips turn to charcoal, but much of the zink oxides will be trapped in the black crud floating on the lead , that you scoop off and replace with fresh flux
http://www.sixguns.com/crew/simplefluxing.htm

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/ ... 0alloy.pdf

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... olten-lead

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/763758 ... oz-aerosol
l
a build up of smoke soot from a wax candle on the surface until the molds surface is coated in fine black soot, will work but its not going to last nearly as long or work as well.
you can make acceptable projectiles with little practice, but it will take most guys a while before you can produce consistently accurate bullets

RELATED INFO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... YpSw95R5s0

http://castbullets.gunloads.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Bullet-Castin ... et+casting

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_3-4_HowToCastBullets.htm

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article ... -on-cheap/

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/

http://www.zjstech.net/gunstuff/casting.html

http://www.n-ssa.org/NORTHWEST/Casting Bullets.htm
just fill the 20 lb pot with 19 lbs or nearly full,

of ingots and the first time its melted add 1 lb of pure tin, flux and stir it in, cast till its 1/2 used then add wheel weight metal ingots and about 1/4 -1/3rd lb of tin and let the pot re heat each succeeding melt time, really its not going to matter if you get it absolutely exactly correct, just try hard to keep it in the 3.5%-5% tin range and youll be fine, obviously you try to be as consistent as you can.
I generally melt wheel weight metal, flux it, and cast ingots in a muffin pan using a large iron pot (DUTCH OVEN POT FROM HARBOR FREIGHT) on a turkey deep fry heater

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-inch-ca ... 44705.html

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/pro...tary-surplus-steel-coal-bucket-used?a=2130411

 

[grumpyvette]

btw Ive done a fair amount of testing bullets shooting them into various back stop mediums.
Id point out that its been my experience that a 44 mag has has limitations with bullets heavier than the 300-310 grain range simply because the cylinder length limits loaded cartridges over all length, and barrel twist rates in some guns that limit how heavy you can go on bullets.
the 300 grain lee and lyman bullets are about the max length that you can load before the bullet volume crimped below the case mouth begins to restrict useable powder space with the slower pistol powders.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417 ... -gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/506726 ... -gas-check

EXAMPLE
ive purchased and tested both these NEI designs and while they have proven to be effective in the longer case 445 dan wesson super mag, they can,t be loaded to enough velocity to markedly out perform the slightly lighter designs in penetration or accuracy ,I linked to above in a 44 mag in my experience.
they do work rather well in the larger 445 dwsm, but not to the extent I feel they pose any huge advantage, in any way over the lee 310 grain, or lyman 300 grain bullet design's

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html


Top Punch # Mold # (s) Nominal Diameter Nominal Weight Bullet Type

#8 311041 .309" 173grs FNGC
311008 .312" 115grs FN
319247 .322" 165grs FN

#43 401043 .401" 175grs FN
403169 .408" 240grs FN
427098 .428" 205grs FN
401654 .401" 150grs SWCBB
401638 .401" 175grs TCBB
410610 .410" 215grs SWCGC

#93 ?????

#132 457132 .459" 535grs Semi-pointed

#141 515141 .512" 425grs FN

#190 454190 .454" 250grs FN

#191 457191 .459" 292grs FNBB
457122 .459" 330grs FNHP
457643 .459" 400grs FN
457193 .459" 405grs FN

#203 245496 .244" 84grs RNGC

#226 313249 .314" 85grs RN

#251 439186 .439" 370grs RN
446110 .446" 340grs RNFP
429383 .430" 245grs RN

#284 311284 .309" 210grs RNGC

#303 ?????

#311 356242 .356" 90grs RN
356242* .356" 120grs RN
358311 .358" 160grs RN

#346 287346 .285" 135grs RNGC

#348 ?????

#359 311359 .312" 115grs PTGC

#360 ?????

#374 457124 .459" 385grs RN
457671 .459" 475grs RNGC
457125 .459" 500grs RN
452374 .452" 225grs RN
452374 .452" 180grs DEV HP

#402 356402 .356" 120grs TC

#413 311332 .309" 180grs PTGC

#415 225415 .225" 55grs FNGC

#420 25742 .258" 65grs FNGC

#421 429215 .430" 210grs SWCGC
429421 .430" 245grs SWC
429244 .430" 255grs SWCGC
429650 .430" 300rs SWCGC

#424 452424 .452" 255grs SWC
452490 .452" 255grs SWCGC

#429 358477 .358" 150grs SWC
358156 .358" 155grs SWCGC
358429 .358" 170grs SWC

#430 358430 .358" 195grs RN

#438 225438 .225" 44grs RNGC

#449 375248 .379" 249grs FN
375449 .379" 264grs FNGC
410655 .410" 400grs FN

#460 452460 .452" 200grs SWC
452630 .452" 200grs FNBB

#463 266469 .264" 140grs RNGC

#465 311291 .309" 170grs RNGC
311252 .311" 75grs RN

#467 311410 .312" 130grs Pointed tip
311299 .309" 200grs RNGC
314299 .314" 200grs RNGC

#470 323470 .325" 165grs RNGC

#495 358665 .358" 158grs RNFP

#637 356637 .356" 147grs FNBB
356637 .356" 124grs Dev HPBB

#641 266673 .264" 150grs Semi-pointed GC SIL
280642 .278" 150grs FNGC
287641 .285" 160grs SIL

#644 311672 .309" 160grs FTGC SIL
311644 .309" 190grs Semi-pointed GC SIL

#646 225646 .225" 55grs Semi-pointed GC

#649 429667 .430" 240grs RNFPBB
429640 .430" 250grs DEV HPGC
452664 .452" 250grs RNFP
452651 .452" 325grs FNGC
501680 .501" 360grs SWC

#658 410660 .410" 385grs Semi-pointed
457658 .459" 480grs Semi-pointed

#663 378674 .379" 335grs RN
410663 .410" 40grs RN

#677 457677 .459" 490grs Pointed-tip

#678 ?????

RN= Round Nose
FP= Flat Point
FN= Flat Nose
SWC= Semi-wadcutter
BB= Bevel Base
GC= Gascheck
HP= Hollow Point
DEV= Devastator
SIL= Silhouette

RCBS TOP PUNCH CHART

RCBS Top Punches
Pistol
Sizer Die Top Punch Top Punch
Mold Part Number Bullet Type Part Number Part Number Number
82021 32-077-RN 82214 82536 465
82060 32-098-WC 82216 82543 445
82061 32-098-SWC 82216 82542 444
82057 38-090-RN 82221 82513 311
82026 09-115-RN 82221 82504 115
82062 9mm-124-RN 82221 82521 401
82063 09-124-RN-TG 82221 82504 115
82027 09-124-CN 82221 82522 402
82077 9mm-147-FN 82221 85556 556
82084 9mm-100-RN 82248 82551 551
82030 38-148-WC-DE 82223 82515 344
82031 38-148-WC 82223 82529 429
82032 38-150-SWC 82223 82529 429
82064 38-158-RN 82223 82513 311
82065 38-158-SWC 82223 82529 429
82066 40-180-FN 82245 85558 558
82067 10mm-170-SWC 82243 85518 518
82068 100-200-SWC 82243 85518 518
82039 41-210-SWC 82226 82541 420
82041 44-225-SWC 82229 82527 421
82042 44-240-SWC 82229 82527 421
82043 44-245-SWC 82229 82527 421
82080 44-250-K 82229 82527 421
82044 44-250-SWC 82229 82527 421
82079 44-300-SWC 82229 82527 421
82052 45-185-SWC-BB 82233 82545 680
82046 45-200-SWC 82233 82534 460
82047 45-201-SWC 82233 82545 680
82081 45-225-CAV 82234 85552 552
82048 45-230-RN 82233 82519 374
82049 45-250-FN 82234 82506 190
82050 45-255-SWC 82234 82528 424
82092 45-270-SAA 82234 82528 424
82083 45-300-SWC 82233 82528 424
82087 50-340-SWC+ 82254 85611 611
Cowboy Molds
82301 25-85-CM 82204 85630 630
82302 30-150-CM 82212 85631 631
82303 32-90-CM 82216 85632 632
82304 38-140-CM 82223 85633 633
82305 38-158-CM 82223 85633 633
82306 40-180-CM 82245 85635 635
82307 44-200-CM 82244/82229 85636 636
82308 45-230-CM 82233/82234 85637 637
Rifle
Sizer Die Top Punch Top Punch
Mold Part Number Bullet Type Part Number Part Number Number
82007 22-055-SP 82240 85506 506
82015 243-095-SP 82202 85509 509
82016 257-120-SP 82204 85515 515
82017 270-150-SP 82206 85529 529
82018 7mm--168-SP 82209 85531 531
82009 30-115-SP 82212 85535 535
82019 30-150-FN 82212 85546 546
82020 30-180-SP 82212 85541 541
82014 30-180-FN 82212 85546 546
82022 7.62-130SPL 82212 85554 546
82023 310-120-RN 82213 85543 543
82024 32-170-FN 82217 85550 550
82028 35-200-FN 82223 85565 565
82029 37-250-FN 82275 85570 570
82090 378-312-BPS 82252 85608 608
82070 40-300-SP-CSA 82226 82520 378
82074 40-350-SP-CSA+ 82226 82520 378
82074 40-400-SP-CSA+ 82212 85520 378
82086 40-400-BPS+ 82226 85609 609
82075 416-350-FN+ 82246 85562 562
82036 44-200-FN 82244 85595 595
82093 44-370-FN 82253 85585 585
82051 45-300-FN 82236 85600 600
82045 45-325-FN-U 82236 85583 383
82053 45-405-FN+ 82236 85600 600
82054 45-500-FN+ 82236 85600 600
82085 45-500-BPS+ 82236 85607 607

Top Punches

If you know of any other combinations of top punches that work with lee molds,
please forward them to webmaster@castpics.net for inclusion in this list.
Thanks.


Lee Mold Lyman RCBS
22 Bator 646
311-093-1R 465
311-100-2R 226
TL314-90-SWC
358-105-SWC 467,402
358-125-RF 429 429
358-140-SWC 554 554
TL358-148-WC 495
358-148-WC 495
358-150-1R 311
358-150-SWC 554 554
TL358-158-SWC 429 550
C358-158-SWC 429 429
TL358-158-2R 311
358-158-RF 43
356-102-1R 311
356-120-TC 402 550
TL356-124-2R 311
TL356-124-TC 402
356-125-2R 311
365-95-1R
401-145-SWC
TL401-175-SWC 43
401-175-TC 460, 43
410-195-SWC 43
TL410-210-SWC
429-214-SWC 421
C429-240-SWC 421
429-200-RF 649
429-240-2R 251
429-255-SWC
TL430-240-SWC 241
C430-310-RF 649 600
452-160-RF 649
452-200-SWC 460
452-200-RF 649
TL452-200-SWC 344, 43
452-228-1R 374 374
TL452-230-2R 374
TL452-230-TC 460 191
452-230-TC 460
452-252-SWC 421
452-255-RF 190, 649
C452-300-RF 649
C476-325-RF
476-400-RF
C501-440-RF
C285-130-R 413
C309-113-F 8
C309-120-R
C309-130-R 465
C309-150-F 8
C309-160-R
C309-170-F
C309-180-R
C309-200-R 467
C312-155-2R 467
CTL312-160-2R
C312-185-1R
C324-175-1R 470, 467, NEI 59
C329-205-1R
C338-220-1R
379-250-RF
457-340-F
457-405-F
459-405-HB 374 374
457-450-F
C457-500-F
459-500-3R
515-450-F
515-500-F

Top Punches



Lee Mold Lyman RCBS
22 Bator 646
311-093-1R 465
311-100-2R 226
TL314-90-SWC
358-105-SWC 467,402
358-125-RF 429 429
358-140-SWC 554 554
TL358-148-WC 495
358-148-WC 495
358-150-1R 311
358-150-SWC 554 554
TL358-158-SWC 429 550
C358-158-SWC 429 429
TL358-158-2R 311
358-158-RF 43
356-102-1R 311
356-120-TC 402 550
TL356-124-2R 311
TL356-124-TC 402
356-125-2R 311
365-95-1R
401-145-SWC
TL401-175-SWC 43
401-175-TC 460, 43
410-195-SWC 43
TL410-210-SWC
429-214-SWC 421
C429-240-SWC 421
429-200-RF 649
429-240-2R 251
429-255-SWC
TL430-240-SWC 241
C430-310-RF 649 600
452-160-RF 649
452-200-SWC 460
452-200-RF 649
TL452-200-SWC 344, 43
452-228-1R 374 374
TL452-230-2R 374
TL452-230-TC 460 191
452-230-TC 460
452-252-SWC 421
452-255-RF 190, 649
C452-300-RF 649
C476-325-RF
476-400-RF
C501-440-RF
C285-130-R 413
C309-113-F 8
C309-120-R
C309-130-R 465
C309-150-F 8
C309-160-R
C309-170-F
C309-180-R
C309-200-R 467
C312-155-2R 467
CTL312-160-2R
C312-185-1R
C324-175-1R 470, 467, NEI 59
C329-205-1R
C338-220-1R
379-250-RF
457-340-F
457-405-F
459-405-HB 374 374
457-450-F
C457-500-F
459-500-3R
515-450-F
515-500-F

 

[grumpyvette]

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/here-we-go-again.16003/#post-96495

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/126912 ... -flat-nose (non-gas check)

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0152670215 (gas check)

bullet stability and twist rates
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

ballistic calculator
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

these calculators can be really handy
If you own a 44 mag revolver and want a mildly hot target load thats still milder than full power 44 mag loads and one you can load up fairly cheaply to save on ammo cost, if your only going to shoot mid range target loads in that 44 mag get a 200 grain mold and cast your own bullets it won,t take very long to pay for itself , 15 grains of blue dot under a bullet cast from 95%-97% wheel weights and 3%-5% tin sized to just over bore diam. and well lubed will give you a load suitable for hunting deer and target shooting, easily pushing that 200 grain slug to about 1450fps with less recoil than full power loads
gas check bullet take longer to make and cost more but tend to lead bores less and be a bit more accurate in some revolvers.
Now from experience I know the 200 grain 44 caliber cast bullets work fairly well on deer but the more heavily built hogs are best tackled with the 240-300 grain hard cast as they give deeper penetration.
remember deer are just not that tough to kill, and while hogs generally are not all that difficult to kill ,either theres far more chance of getting a complete pass through shot on a deer than a decent size hog in my experience.

 

[grumpyvette]

the ideal cast bullet rifle in most cases is the 45 caliber rifles like 45/70, 450 marlin or 458 win, simply because they are designed to function well with the 350-500 grain bullets that can easily be cast and bullets that in most cases are designed to be used at less than 2200 fps where properly sized and lubed gas check cast bullets perform really well.

heres an example of factory ammo for a 45/70 which is about as low cost at $35 for 20 that factory larger caliber ammo gets currently, but if you have once fired brass and reload, cast bullets, cases can be re-used at least 7-8 times and in many cases even more, and if velocity is kept fairly reasonable (below about 1800fps its common to get more reloads and to have the cost less than 30-45 cents a shot.) and $12-$15 a box for good accurate reloads,beats the hell out of factory at $35-$60 for 20.
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/hornady ... 79375.html

if your not hand loading..
but to me the big benefit to owning a large bore lever action is it easy use of 350grain-420 grain cast bullets that still gives you excellent accuracy and power levels from cheaply assembled hand loads.
both RL7 and IMR 4198 usually give very good results, and if you cast your own bullets cost is reduced to pennies a shot, vs over a $1.50 each for most factory ammo. in many cases youll find the 350-370 grain weights more accurate at lower velocities, yet these still punch hard enough even at fairly low 1300fps-1800fps to kill deer and hogs very effectively

If your shooting a decent quality 45/70 like a marlin lever action, your really missing the boat,
in my opinion, and I have several people I hand load for that would certainly agree.
if you don,t cast your own bullets and hand load, this allows you to reduce the cost and duplicate or even increase,
the rifles accuracy over factory ammo accuracy and if you choose too, push the power levels a bit and still remain at safe pressure levels
maximizing accuracy is far more important than pushing the velocity to get the last potential FPS
and the 350 grain to 420 grain gas check,design, bullets provide the best balance between retained down range energy,accuracy and safe pressures
powders like RL7,IMR 4198 and IMR 3031 with a standard large rifle primer
(in some rare cases mag primers have a very minor detrimental effect on accuracy)
(but in most cases I've seen and tested mag primers provide excellent accuracy)
cast gas check bullets cast from 95% WW alloy and 5% pure tin by weight provide excellent accuracy,
if properly sized .001 over bore (generally .459)and a quality lube is used,
bore leading is almost non-existent if ammo is properly loaded and bore wear is nearly non-existent in a properly maintained 45/70
or most similar calibers like 450 marlin,444 marlin, 375 win, with cast bullets being much softer and producing much less friction than a copper jacket

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...er-458-diameter-405-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... fle&Source

http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... er&Source=

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/176487 ... -gas-check

 

[grumpyvette]

btw your choice in rifles and loads need not try to push the limits in speed or bullet weight to be effective or accurate,
I've got a 458 win built by Remington's custom shop, that is a real grin to use with super mild cast loads I won't post all the details because you might not believe me, and the risk of someone not paying attention and making a double powder charge is fairly high, and I'm not sure the loads safe in all guns, but a properly sized lubed 355 grain cast bullet properly hand loaded can be pushed to about 1100 fps and if shot off a bench rest, can shoot under 1/2" hundred yard 3 shot groups on a very calm windless day.
and yes I've used that load on a few hogs and while its not going to make spectacular instant kills its deadly, and punches to the vitals
yes that loads producing less than 20% of the factory load energy levels but its still fun to shoot

if your into handgun hunting, using cast bullets,
consider the fact that hard cast gas check bullets have been available for hundreds of years, they are comparatively cheap to make, tend to be exceptionally accurate if properly made and loaded, and they were used to eliminate 60 million buffalo (mostly with rifles), all the bad guys in the old west, attacking Indians and still they tend to work exceptionally well on big game if the proper design and caliber is used correctly, while some more modern jacked designs are marginally superior for self defensive work,
I've used a 357 mag with an 8" barrel, a 10mm with a 6" barrel and a 44mag and 500 mag with 8"-10.5/8" barrels all work well.
in the 357 mag the 158-170 grain bullets work far better than the lighter weights, in the 10mm 170-200 grain seem to be the most accurate, lighter and heavier tend to have accurate issues in guns I tested, in the 44 mag, rifles and revolvers, I used the 270-310 grain excel on game
and the 500mag seems to really like the lee 440 grain cast/gas check design
Id really suggest the REVOLVERS used with 6"-10" barrels with proper hand loads as they tend to be marginally more accurate on average and much more powerful

 

[grumpyvette]

just got back from the range after a pleasant trip, for several reason, I was shooting my marlin 44 mag carbine, I went because one of my neighbors kept insisting that there was "no way in hell" that I was getting the group size I claimed I was getting using the Lee 300 grain cast bullets and 21 grains of H110 powder
Id consistently claimed 1"-1.5" groups off a solid bench rest, he felt that way because his bolt action Remington 44 carbine was shooting 3" groups, the first 3 shot 100 yard group I shot, with my marlin measured just under 2.5",with two touching and the first shot hitting a bit high.
he was smirking like a Cheshire cat!
but the next three , 3 shot groups all measured between 1.1" and 1.3" which tended to validate my claim's, so as far as Im concerned I proved that the little carbines more than accurate enough, for most of the florida deer and hog hunting I do.
and what really pissed my neighbor off is that the 44 marlin carbine now has a 4x Leopold scope that he stated he can barely make out a 1" orange dot at 100 yards looking thru.
and he knows Id changed the scope to that 4x scope from the former 2x7x because I wanted that scope on my 450 marlin caliber BLR and felt the 4x better suited the 44 caliber carbine anyway.

bullets were cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% pure tin, sized .430 and hornady gas checks and my bullet lube.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bullet-mold-manufacturers.2287/

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/ ... 0000690227



BTW Ive tried easily a dozen different combos of bullets and powder and both jacketed and cast, yet thats the most accurate and consistent load yet found1 , in fact Ive used it for over 12 years with zero reason to change a thing, and its been very effective where I hunt deer and hogs

 

[grumpyvette]

keep in mind you can flux metal alloys and remove most zink content from bullet ingot alloys

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/here-we-go-again.16003/#post-96495



http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...k-to-interesting-big-bore-revolver-info.7811/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ns-power-accuracy-effective-range-cost.13280/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ectively-handle-a-larger-bore-revolver.12784/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/44-mag.7500/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/445-dan-wesson-revolvers.1992/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-hunting-revolver-should-concentrate-on.3744/

If you doubt a cast bullet can be used to effectively kill game, try a 458 caliber bullet of about 535 grains cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin, out of a 458 LOTT

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0152640132
youll be amazed at what it does to that plate you probably use to site in at the range ,even pushed to only 1800fps...lack of penetration on game doesn,t seem to be a big issue

most 45/70 lever actions work rather well using hard cast gas check bullets in the 350-405 grain weight range, and
hard cast bullets significantly reduce wear on the rifling.
bullets heavier than about 420 grains use too much case capacity as the bullet must be seated to the stock cartridge length to function, smoothly, unlike single shot rifles, bullets lighter than about 330 grains don,t have the bearing surface to properly engage the rifling for the 45/70 upper velocity ranges possible nor do they carry energy out to longer ranges effectively
something like this should prove very accurate and effective for hunting and reduce the cost of ammo significantly.
the 350-405 weight range in the 45/70 has proven to be very effective on game

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-350S-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-360R-D.png

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-395BG-D.png

powders like imr 4198, RL7 and IMR 3031 generally work best

https://www.sagesoutdoors.com/458-rifle-caliber-gator-gas-checks/

 

[Grumpy]

 

[Grumpy]

btw, if you do rather extensive research and pay attention,
youll find a few factors that youll need to pay serious attention too,
if you intend to have accurate cast bullet hand loads.

TWIST RATE
youll be beating a dead horse if you select a bullet thats too long for the barrels twist rate ,
so it helps to calculate that and check that your not wasting your time!

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

https://www.buffaloarms.com/bullet-moulds/buffalo-arms-bullet-moulds

BULLET diameter
this varies but youll rarely find that a bullet sized to .oo1-.002 over bore size won.t shoot fairly well,
in most bores if its properly lubricated and sized if your using the correct alloy, and ideally a gas check bullet design.

CASTING ALLOY
this also varies but a 95% wheel weights and 5% pure tin by weight,
alloy generally provides a great start point

http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm

http://www.lasc.us/castbulletalloy.htm

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/3/21/bullet-casting-bullets-on-the-cheap/

bullet velocity
youll find a good deal of accuracy is going to be dependent, on matching the bullet size
bullet,lube and bullet casting alloy hardness to the velocity and rifling twist rate, while there are exceptions ,
most cast bullets produce their best potential accuracy in the,
1300 fps-1800 fps range with the non-gas check designs
and the bullets size, bearing surface and other factors will effect results ,
gas check bullet designs extend that velocity up to about 2200 fps in some rifle combos.
yes the velocity's can be pushed faster, but generally you'll be dealing in rather specialized combos, and its rare to get the same level of accuracy with a cast bullet's at the higher or maximum velocities that are potentially possiable, that can be obtained at a slightly lower velocity

 

[Grumpy]

I was recently at a local pistol range with a neighbor that had purchased his first magnum caliber revolver ,
for use as a hunting hand gun.
(one that I personally think is a bit too powerful for a first time hand gunner,
but with hand loads, this can actually make good sense,
as you can start out learning and do so if you load mild ammo to start,
and work up as you gain experience)
going this route you'll only buy a single revolver and limit the equipment needed to reload and cast bullets,
to a single revolver, set of dies and maybe two bullet molds, and simply starting with significantly lower powder charges ,
and lighter bullet designs allows lower recoil, until your totally familiar with the pistol,
and want to step up the power level and can easily handle the increased recoil that results,
after extensive practice and familiarity, with the pistol.
now Bill is rather new to hand loading revolver ammo and he did not adequately crimp the case,
and as a result he had his handgun lock-up,
he was not loading hot ammo, he was using 20 grains of H110 under a 355 grain bullet,
he simply used less crimp than was required.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...-355-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-50

until I showed him how to clear the blockage, caused by the bullets moving forward in the cylinder, and how to prevent it in the future ammo he loaded.
reloading ammo is 90% science and about 10% art form, and it helps to have an experienced mentor
hand loaded ammo can provide a very wide range of very effective ammo , allowing you to have both pleasant, to shoot, accurate but lower recoil, practice ammo or full velocity hunting ammo, and a wide selection of projectiles
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source
and he used purchased commercial cast bullets that are comparatively soft alloy lead bullets .
(the bullets can and in my opinion should be personally cast from 95% WW allow and 5% pure tin, a well proven and fairly hard alloy)
his revolver is very good quality but he still needs experience too provide top quality ammo.
there was nothing wrong with the revolver
(I would like to own a similar Ruger revolver)
its certainly lighter and smaller and easier to carry than the 500 S&W and yet still has more than enough power to take on any animal you might hunt with the correct handloads.
and just a minor adjustment to the loading dies would correct the ammo concerns.
the bullets he ordered were decent quality, it was simply badly adjusted dies and under crimped cases that caused the issue.
but it was a problem that could get you killed if you hunted dangerous game with defective ammo
(obviously if your going to put your safety on the line,
you'll want too have carefully tested the equipment,
you'll use very extensively,
for reliable function and durability and accuracy, before hand.)

https://gundigest.com/reviews/ruger-super-blackhawk-revolvers

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...-ruger-and-454-casull-ruger-super-blackhawks/

every time you fire a revolver the bullet mass (the projectile loaded over the powder in the cartridge case)
in the cartridges loaded in the cylinders wants to remain where it is,
but on firing the pistol, the pistol moves rapidly, it wants too recoil, this puts a significant inertial load on the loaded cartridges, in the cylinders.
bullet length and the length the bullet extends forward of the cartridge case mouth obviously varies as does the length of the revolver cylinders, but you should be aware that as bullet weight and recoil levels increase the need to have a firm case crimp becomes MANDATORY to allow the revolver to function
softer bullet alloys and marginal crimps make the bullet moving forward in the case more likely and common.
a 480 ruger caliber handgun, with proper hand loads, can easily provide both a larger diameter and noticeably heavier projectile at similar velocities too what a 300 grain 44 mag can provide, in a similar barrel length revolver,
thus its potential more lethal in skilled hands, by about a 15%-20% more energy and noticeably harder impact.
the 480 Ruger is one of several exceptionally effective cartridges for hand gun hunting from what I've seen in the field.
its not popular and cases are hard to find, thats a damn shame as its a very well designed and effective cartridge.
its hard to find and handgun that can push 300-450 grains of lead too over 1200 fps that won,t get good results
In my opinion the 480 ruger is a very under rated and very effective cartridge

heres a picture (below) of a small double action S&W revolver where improperly crimped case ammo,
has allowed the bullets to move forward out of the cartridge case, due to not being crimped correctly.
at the range this is a P.I.T.A, as it ties up the cylinder preventing the revolver from firing or even opening the cylinder,
but if you were in a personal toe-to-toe discussion with a large pissed off bear the result of under crimped bullets would be FATAL, as it would render the revolver useless

the mild frosted appearance has ZERO negative effect on performance and in fact its tends to indicate a more consistent mold fill
the alloy change allowed the tin and antimony crystallizes content to more effectively fill the voids but results in a slightly more frosted appearance
heavy frosting generally tends to result in a slightly under sized bullet, shiney, has no benefit, other than aesthetics,
want to prove it?
get your best looking ten of each shiney and mildly or even completely frosted bullets , load each group exactly the same, now shoot both in separated groups
chances are very good little difference or the frosted group is marginally tighter,
set the first shiney bullets you cast aside and then weigh and measure them for comparison to the frosted ones.
740F-760F is generally fine, obviously cast at a rate that does not over heat the mold, if you get finning your generally casting too fast or theres debris in the mold

heres a picture I found someplace of mildly frosted and perfectly cast bullets

btw if your going to cast bullets wait till the molds clean and hot then lightly spray the mold interior surface with moly spray, as it helps the cast bullets fall easily from the mold and makes casting process faster and more consistent. (yes the first couple will suck, but after a couple fills the micro moly on the mold surface helps noticeably)

Last edited by hardcastonly; Today at 08:22 AM.
heres a picture (below) of what happened to a cylinder full of 454 cassul ammo,
notice each time a revolver was fired the bullet in the remaining loaded cylinders moved out of the case a bit further,

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/309958/lee-carbide-3-die-set

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...75-linebaugh-476-diameter-400-grain-flat-nose
(these 400 grain bullets pushed to about 1000-1250 fps
(easily done with a 480 ruger or 500 S&W revolver)
make this a very potent close range big game revolver easily able to kill anything in north America with proper shot placement) out to at least 80 yards... consider millions of bison were killed in the 1870s-1880s with a 45/70 with similar ballistics from a rifle

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...-355-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check-box-of-50

https://www.fieldandstream.com/some-kind-words-for-480-ruger

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/513567/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-single-stage-press


the big three, in proper cast bullet performance, shot placement ,projectile mass, velocity
On a recent trip to the local range I brought my favorite hunting handguns, I use for hunting locally,
at least to my way of thinking a handgun is an easy to transport, and holster compatible firearm,
that is not expected to be used at anything over about 150 yards.
these are very effective in dense cover where a rifle tends to be more difficult to use.
once your hand loaded ammo is easily able to penetrate big game easily from all reasonable angles and reasonable ranges,
with at least some consistent expansion and easily exit power increases give marginal improvement from what I've seen.
many people who are unfamiliar with handguns may be amazed at the effective lethality in skilled hands.
its been my experience, that if you hunt with a mag revolver, at closer ranges its a bit like archery hunting,
you can expect game to run when hit, but unlike archery, the distances are generally not great.
larger and heavier bullets may not be more lethal but you tend to get a faster reaction and less distance traveled.
and a friend brought his S&W 500 mag , all were loaded with gas check hard cast ammo I hand loaded
all the loads are well tested on game over the last few years and accurate in those revolvers
we generally sight in at about 2" high at 75 yards as thats about the max range we see in the thick brush in this area.
for the few guys that hunt with a 357 mag, revolver,
Ive very successfully, used a 357 mag with lyman 170 grain bullets over 13 grains of H110 powder.

IF I was using a 357 mag revolver for hunting,
ID select a hard cast gas check bullet, made with the linked bullet mold,
a 5% tin and 95% ww alloy similar to this link
over a stiff load of H110, use a firm crimp, mag primers at least an 8" barrel,
and use the revolver at reasonably close (under 50 yards when I could)

Bullet Design Details | Accurate Molds

www.accuratemolds.com

a 357 mag is not in the same power level as the larger mags but never underestimate its lethality potential in skilled hands
but there's been an obvious difference not in lethality,
a good hits almost certainly lethal,
but in many cases in how far a well hit deer or hog ran ,
hit a hog in the neck or head and it drops, heart/lung shots are lethal but you get a death run,
deer shot in the heart/lung area, generally, run but go nose first in mid flight, after a few seconds
after bullet impact, results vary with range angle and game,
but seemed to marginally favor the heavier bullet weights
you rarely get instant kills, but most well hit game I've shot rarely makes it 20-30 yards
all these revolvers have the bullet mass and velocity (heavier bullets for caliber,
in the 1350fps-1550 fps)
to push a hard cast gas check bullet fast enough,
to be very effective PROVIDED you place your shots well and know the anatomy of the game.
once you get good with a 44 mag or larger revolver I don,t see a big advantage in going much larger,
the 44 mag and 445 DWSM easily shoot clear through most game and exit,
and while theres zero doubt a 454 cassul or 460 mag or 480 ruger or 500 mag hit harder,
I don,t see a big difference in lethality they all work .



for anyone who cares
in my 44 mag
I used a 21 grain charge of H110 under a LEE 310 grain hard cast 44 cal. bullet seated out to the lower crimp groove

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...cf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
MOLD DC C 430-310-RF

the 44 mag silhouette with the adjustable front site and 10 5/8" barrel

YES IT REQUIRES a shoulder holster to use comfortably

Ive also used and own a 10" dan wesson 445 super mag

the same 310 grain lee bullet over 30 grains of h110 powder works rather well.

we found that a 20 grain charge of BLUE DOT powder under a lee 440 grain gas check bullet,
to give very accurate results in his 7.5" 500 mag and it certainly devastates hogs
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010200848?pid=266944

 

[Grumpy]

WTB: Hornady .44 200gr JSHP bullets #4410
Hello guys....looking for these reloading components.
Hornady .44 200gr JSHP bullets, Box #4410

Thanks

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...er-200-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

https://www.brownells.com/reloading...48114c&gdfms=FB49AB4F83B94CD0B69112F55F68905C

you obviously reload, so I've always thought casting your own projectiles was at least an option, yes it costs some money to get set up correctly but in the long term it makes providing a long term source for quality projectiles a great deal less expensive, and in my experience a properly made 44 caliber hard cast bullet, if the correct molds are used, provides you with excellent target accuracy, with the proper design of lighter weights at reduced velocity
(your only punching paper or tin cans) or the heavier bullet designs that provide noticeably better penetration, for better hunting performance, if the proper 240-310 gas check bullets are pushed to anywhere close to the cartridges potential.
Id also point out that hard cast lead alloy bullets significantly reduce wear on the rifling and you'll most likely never wear out a revolver barrel used on a 44 mag thats mostly used with lighter target loads used /loaded with cast bullets
even confirmed hunters will fire a 100 target cartridges on paper or tin cans, for every bullet shot at game


these hard cast gas check 200 grain bullets, (NEI below)
go to .429 diam. then bullet weight
429-196-GC
make great target bullets loaded over about any decent powder like
10 grains of unique,
9 grains of red dot,
or
13 grains of blue dot,
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

the 310 grain lee bullet over 20 grains of H110 has been very extensively proven, to be lethal and accurate, on deer and hogs and even several elk, from the 44 mag
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...cf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

lyman 300 grain
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...0-diameter-300-grain-semi-wadcutter-gas-check
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun
many of the the 416- 44-458 caliber rifles are well designed to use gas check cast bullets

Ive been looking for, and really wanted, a stainless/laminated ruger #1 in 458 lott at a decent price for about 10 years, ever since one of my buddies bought one at a local gun show for $900, he loves his, I reload for him, and no he refuses to sell his.
every time I have the cash I either can't locate one, or theres a family crisis that used all the saved cash
given a choice that would be my next rifle

https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

it should not take a genius too understand that in a repeater like a marlin or BLR the over all cartridge length must be close to a standard designed length to function reliably regardless of the projectile weight, selected, thus longer projectiles will extend a great deal deeper into the case taking up valuable propellant space, the trade-off tends to make it very difficult in the limited case capacity of the 45/70 and 450 marlin. too efficiently push bullets much over about 430 grains to velocities, at the safe limits in pressure, that provide both reasonably flat trajectory and high retained energy

 

[Grumpy]

Common Cartridge/Rifle Twist Rate Reference

Registered Users do not see the above ad.

.



17 CCM - 1 in 10" . . .Cooper
17 Remington - 1 in 9" . .Rem 700, 7
17 Remington - 1 in 10" . .Cooper; Sako; T/C Rifle & Carbine
17 Ackley Hornet - 1 in 10" . .Cooper
17 Mach IV - 1 in 10" . .Cooper

221 Fireball - 1 in 12"...T/C Carbine
221 Fireball - 1 in 14"...Cooper; Rem 700C, XP-100

22 CCM - 1 in 14"...Cooper
22 Hornet - 1 in 12"....T/C Rifle & Carbine, NEA Handi
22 Hornet - 1 in 14"....Kimber 82; Savage 24 - V + F, 219, 340;Cooper; Ruger 77
22 Hornet - 1 in 16"....Win 70; Ruger #3; Browning A-Bolt II, 1885; Kimber; Anschutz 1432
22 K-Hornet - 1 in 12"....T/C Rifle & Carbine
22 K-Hornet - 1 in 14"...Cooper
218 Bee - 1 in 12"....T/C Carbine
218 Bee - 1 in 14"....Cooper
218 Bee - 1 in 16".....Marlin; Winchester
219 Zipper - 1 in 14"....Marlin; Winchester
222 Remington - 1 in 12"....T/C Carbine & Rifle
222 Remington - 1 in 14"...Browning; Rem 722, 725, 700, 600, 40-XB, 760, 788, 660; Savage 24-V, 340, 112, 2400; Sako; Win 70, 770; Wichita; Colt; HVA; Cooper
222 Remington - 1 in 16"... J.C. Higgins 52, early Sako
22 PPC - 1 in 12"...T/C Rifle
22 PPC - 1 in 14".....Sako Benchrest-Varmint / PPC; Cooper
222 Rem. Magnum - 1 in 12"... Sako
222 Rem. Magnum - 1 in 14"....Browning; Rem 722, 700, 40-XB, HVA, Sako
222 Rem. Magnum – 1 in 15-1/2"....Sako/1972
223 Remington - 1 in 7"....Colt; Ruger Precision; Eagle Arms Eagle Eye; H&K SL-8
223 Remington - 1 in 8" ....Eagle Arms Golden Eagle, Armalite
223 Remington - 1 in 9" ....Colt; Win 70 HBV; Savage 110, 112, 116; Steyr/Aug-SA; Eagle Arms std models; Savage; Win 70
223 Remington - 1 in 10"....Ruger Mini-14 & #1
223 Remington - 1 in 12"....Colt Bolt Action, AR-15; Rem 760, 700, 788, 7; H&R; Sako; Savage 340; Win 70; T/C Contender, Encore & Rifle; Ruger # 1, 77; NEF/H&R Handi-Rifle, Howa; CZ
223 Remington - 1 in 14" ...... .Rem 40-XB; HVA; Savage 24F, 24V, 340; Wichita; Weatherby Vanguard; Cooper
224 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 14"...Weatherby
225 Winchester - 1 in 14".....Win 70, 670; Savage 340, 24-F
22-250 Remington - 1 in 12".....Sako; Savage 110, 112; T/C Rifle
22-250 Remington - 1 in 14".....Browning; Rem 700,788, 40-XB; Savage 99, 110, 112-V; H&R; HVA; Ruger; Win 70, 770; Mossberg; Weatherby; Sako current models
220 Swift - 1 in 12"....Savage 112; T/C Rifle
220 Swift - 1 in 14"....Win 70; Rem 700; Ruger 77; FN; Savage 112-V
220 Weatherby Rocket - 1 in 14"....Weatherby

22 Savage Hi-Power - 1 in 12"......Savage 99

6 TCU - 1 in 10"....T/C Carbine & Rifle
6x45 - 1 in 12"...Cooper
6 PPC - 1 in 10".....T/C Rifle
6 PPC - 1 in 14"....Sako, Ruger VT
243 Winchester - 1 in 9"....Rem 660, 700, 788 (1969);
243 Winchester - 1 in 9-1/8"....Rem 700, 7400, 7600, 7;
243 Winchester - 1 in 9-1/4".....Savage (present)
243 Winchester - 1 in 10"......Browning; Colt; FN; H&R 300, 308, 360; HVA; Mannlicher-Schoenauer; Interarms Musketeer; Mossberg 800; Rem 700, 40-XB; Savage 99, 110, 111, 112-V, 116 (old); Sako Bolt & Lever Actions; Schultz & Larsen; Stevens 110; Win 70, 88,100,670,770; J.C. Higgins 51-L; Ruger #1, 77; Wichita; Weatherby Vanguard; T/C Rifle
243 Winchester - 1 in 12"...Steyr SSG-PII
244 Remington - 1 in 10"....Rem 700
244 Remington - 1 in 12"....Rem 722, 760, 740, 725, 40-XB; Sako
6mm Remington - 1 in 9".... .Rem 600, 700, 4, 6, 7, 7400,7600, 742, 760, 788, 660; Browning B-78; Ruger 77.
6mm Remington - 1 in 10"....Rem 40-XB; Schultz and Larsen; Ruger #1, 77; Browning
6mm International - 1 in 12"....Rem 40-XB
6mm Remington BR - 1 in 14"....Rem 40-XBBR
6x47mm - 1 in 12" ....Cooper; Rem 40-XB
6x47mm - 1 in 14"..... .Rem 40-XBBR
240 Weatherby - 1 in 9-1/2"... .Weatherby Mark V

256 Winchester - 1 in 10"... .T/C Carbine
256 Winchester - 1 in 14"... .Marlin 62, Ruger
25-20 WCF - 1 in 24"....Win 1892 (SN390000 to SN675000)
25-20 WCF - 1 in 30"...Win 1892 (under SN390000)
25-20 WCF - 1 in 36"….Win 1892 (SN675000 to end)
25-35 WCF - 1 in 8"....Savage 99
25-35 Winchester - 1 in 10"....T/C Carbine, Win 94
25 TCU (25 Ugalde) - 1 in 10" ..T/C Carbine & Rifle
250 Savage - 1 in 9-1/2"....Weatherby
250 Savage - 1 in 10".. .Savage 99 (late), 110; Rem 700; Ruger 77
250 Savage - 1 in 14"....Savage 99 (early)
257 Roberts - 1 in 9-1/2"....Browning A-Bolt II
257 Roberts - 1 in 10".... .Rem 722, 760, 700; Win 70;Ruger 77; T/C Rifle
25/06 Remington - 1 in 10". ..Rem 700, 40-XB; Ruger #1, 77; Browning; Sako; Win 70; Savage 110, 112; T/C Rifle
257 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 9-1/2"..Weatherby (current)
257 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 12"...Weatherby (old)
257 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 14"....Mannlicher-Schoenauer

260 Remington – 1 in 8"....Ruger 77
260 Remington - 1 in 9" ...Rem 700, Savage
260 Remington – 1 in 10"....Browning
6.5 Creedmoor - 1 in 8"..... Ruger American, Ruger Hawkeye, Savage
6.5 Creedmoor - 1 in 9.5"...Weatherby
6.5 Creedmoor - 1 in 10"... T/C
6.5 TCU - 1 in 8" ... .T/C Carbine & Rifle
6.5 M-S - 1 in 8 1/4"......Mannlicher-Schoenauer
6.5x55mm - 1 in 7.87"....Win 70
6.5x55mm - 1 in 8" .... .Husqvarna; Rem 700 (1994); T/C Rifle, Ruger 77
6.5x55mm - 1 in 8 1/4".....Schultz & Larsen
6.5x55mm - 1 in 9" ....Rem 40-XB
6.5x68mm - 1 in 11"....Mannlicher-Schoenauer
6.5/284 Norma - 1 in 8".... Savage
6.5 Remington Magnum - 1 in 9"...Rem 600, 660, 700; Ruger 77
264 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 8"...T/C Rifle
264 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 9"...Browning; FN; HVA; Interarms Musketeer; Rem 700; Savage 110; Sako; Schultz & Larsen; Win 70, 670, 770
264 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 10"..Colt; Mannlicher-Schoenauer

270 REN - 1 in 10"...T/C Carbine
270 Winchester - 1 in 9"...Mannlicher-Schoenauer
270 Winchester - 1 in 9-1/2"....HVA
270 Winchester - 1 in 10" ....Browning; FN; H&R 300; High-Standard; J.C. Higgins 50, 51, 51-L; HVA; Interarms Musketeer; Rem 700, 721,760, 725, 7400, 7600, 4, 6; Savage 110, 114, 116; Sako; Schultz & Larsen; Win 70, 670, 770; Ruger #1, 77; Mossberg; Marlin 455; Wichita; Weatherby Mk V, Vanguard; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle, (Sako/Krieger/Bell & Carson); T/C Rifle
270 WSM - 1 in 10"....Win 70, Browning
270 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 9-1/2"..Weatherby Mk V
270 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 10" ....Weatherby Vanguard; Browning BAR Mark II; Winchester
270 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 12" ...Weatherby (old)

7mm TCU - 1 in 9"...T/C Rifle & Carbine
7x30 Waters - 1 in 9"....T/C Carbine
7x30 Waters - 1 in 9-1/2"..... .Win 94
7mm-08 Remington - 1 in 9" ....T/C Rifle
7mm-08 Remington - 1 in 9-1/2" ....Browning BLR 81, A-Bolt II; Sako; Savage (present)
7mm-08 Remington - 1 in 10" .....Rem 7, 788, 700; Win 70; Savage 110
7x57mm - 1 in 8"......Ruger (present)
7x57mm - 1 in 8-1/2"......Win 70 (post 64)
7x57mm - 1 in 8.7" ... .FN
7x57mm - 1 in 8-3/4" ....Win 54, 70 (pre ‘64); Ruger 77
7x57mm - 1 in 9" .... .Mannlicher-Schoenauer; T/C Rifle
7x57mm - 1 in 9-1/4"....Remington 700
7x57mm - 1 in 9-1/2" .....Ruger #1, 77 (old); Savage 110
7x57mm - 1 in 10" ......Win70
7mm Express - 1 in 9-1/4".... Rem 700, 4, 7400.
280 Remington - 1 in 9"....Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; T/C Rifle
280 Remington - 1 in 9-1/4"....Rem 760, 740, 742, 700, 721, 725, 7400, 7600
280 Remington - 1 in 9-1/2".....Ruger 77 (old); Savage 110; Ruger (present)
280 Remington - 1 in 10" ....Win 70; Browning A-Bolt II; Sako
284 Winchester – 1 in 8-3/4". ..Ruger 77
284 Winchester - 1 in 10" .....Browning A-Bolt, BLR 81; Savage 99; Win 88, 100
7mm SAUM - 1 in 9-1/4" .....Rem Model Seven
7mm WSM - 1 in 9-1/2" ..... .Win 70, Browning
7mm RUM - 1 in 9-1/4"...Rem 700
7x61 Sharpe & Hart - 1 in 10"...Schultz & Larsen
7x64mm Brenneke - 1 in 9".....T/C Rifle
7mm Dakota - 1x10"....Dakota Arms
7mm Remington Magnum - 1 in 9"...HVA; Rem 40-XB, 700 (1969); Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; T/C Rifle
7mm Remington Mag. - 1 in 9-1/4".... Remington 700; Savage 110, 111, 112, 114, 116; Sako; Win 70, 770; Ruger #1, 77 (old); Mossberg; Browning A-Bolt II, BLR 81; Weatherby Mk V
7mm Remington Mag. - 1 in 9-1/2"... Ruger (present); Savage (present)
7mm Remington Mag. - 1 in 10" ....Browning; FN; H&R 300; Interarms Musketeer; Schultz & Larsen; Browning BAR Mk II; Weatherby Vanguard
7mm Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 9-1/4"..Rem 700
7mm Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 9-1/2"...Weatherby Mk V (present)
7mm Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 10"....Weatherby (1965)
7mm Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 12".... Weatherby (old)
7mm STW – 1 in 9".....Rem 700, Win 70
7mm STW – 1 in 9 1/2".....Ruger #1; Savage

30 M1 Carbine - 1 in 10"....T/C Carbine
30 M1 Carbine - 1 in 16" ...30 U.S. Govt. M1 Carbine; Universal Carbine
30 M1 Carbine - 1 in 20" ...Marlin 62; Ruger
7.62x39mm - 1 in 10"...T/C Rifle
7.62x39mm - 1 in 12"...Colt; Ruger
30 Herrett - 1 in 10"...T/C Carbine
30-30 Winchester - 1 in 10"...Marlin 336; Rem 788; T/C Carbine, Savage 99
30-30 Winchester - 1 in 12" ...Savage 24, 170, 340, 219; Win 64/94; Mossberg 479, 679
30 Remington - 1 in 12"...Rem 81, 141
300 Savage - 1 in 10"...Rem 81, 722, 760; Savage 110
300 Savage - 1 in 12" ...Savage 99
30-40 Krag - 1 in 10"...Ruger #3, Win 1895
307 Winchester - 1 in 12"...Win 94
308 Winchester - 1 in 10"...Colt; J.C. Higgins 51-L; Mannlicher-Schoenauer; Marlin 455; Interarms Musketeer; Rem 722, 740, 742, 760, 700, 40-XB, 788, 660, 600, 7400, 7600, Four, Six, Seven; Schultz & Larsen; Ruger 77; Wichita; Savage 99, 110, 112, 116 (present); Weatherby Vanguard; Steyr SSG-PIV; T/C Rifle
308 Winchester - 1 in 12"...Browning BLR 81, BAR Mark II, A-Bolt II; Colt; FN; High Standard; J.C. Higgins 50, 51, 51-L; H&R 300, 308; HVA; Mossberg 800; Savage 99, 100, 110, 2400; Sako Bolt Action and Lever Action; Win 70, 88, 670, 770; Steyr SSG-PI, PII, PIII; Stevens 110; 100, Rem 700, 40-XC.; Springfield Armory M1A
30-06 - 1 in 10"...Browning BLR 81, BAR Mark II, A-Bolt II; Colt, FN; High Standard; J.C. Higgins 50, 51, 51-L; H&R 300; Mannlicher-Schoenauer; Marlin; Interarms Musketeer; Rem 721, 760, 740, 742, 725, 700, 40-XB, 7400, 7600; Savage 110, 114, 116 (present); Sako; Schultz & Larsen; Stevens 110; Win 70, 670, 770; Weatherby Vanguard, Mark V; Ruger #1, 77: Wichita; Mossberg; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; T/C Rifle
30-06 - 1 in 12"...HVA; Rem 700V (old);Browning 78, Colt/Sauer
300 H&H Magnum - 1 in 10"...Browning; Rem 721; Sako; Win 70
300 WSM - 1 in 10" ....Win 70, Browning; Savage
300 SAUM -1 in 10" ...Rem Model Seven
308 Norma Magnum - 1 in 10"...Interarms Musketeer; Schultz & Larsen
308 Norma Magnum - 1 in 12" ...Browning; HVA
30-338 - 1 in 10" ...Rem 40-XB
300 Winchester Mag. - 1 in 10"....Browning BAR Mk II, A-Bolt II; FN; H&R 300; Interarms Musketeer; Rem 700, 40-XB; Savage 110, 112, 114, 116; Sako; Win 70, 670, 770; Ruger #1,77; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; Wichita; Weatherby Mk V, Vanguard (new); T/C Rifle
300 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 12"...HVA
300 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 9 1/2"...Weatherby Mk V (current)
300 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 10".....Weatherby Vanguard (current); Sako; Win 70; Rem 700
300 Weatherby Mag. - 1 in 12".....Weatherby (old); Rem 700 (current)
300 RUM - 1 in 10" .....Rem 700; Savage
30-378 Weatherby – 1 in 10"....Weatherby Mark V
300 Dakota - 1 in 10" ....Dakota Arms

303 Savage - 1 in 10"...Savage 99

32 H&R Mag - 1 in 10"...T/C Carbine
32 H&R Mag - 1 in 16"...Ruger
32-20 WCF - 1 in 10"....T/C Carbine
32-40 WCF - 1 in 16"....Marlin, T/C Rifle, Winchester, Savage 99
32-20 WCF - 1 in 24"....Win 1892 (SN390000 to SN675000)
32-20 WCF - 1 in 30"....Win 1892 (under SN390000)
32-20 WCF - 1 in 36"....Win 1892 (SN675000 to end)
32 Winchester Special - 1 in 16"....Marlin 336; Win 64/94
8x57 Mauser - 1 in 9-1/2"......Euro rifles
8x68S - 1 in 11".....Mannlicher-Schoenauer
8mm Remington Magnum - 1 in 10"....Rem 700

330 Dakota - 1 in 10"....Dakota Arms
338 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 10"...Weatherby Mark V; Mannlicher-Schoenauer; Savage 110, 116; Win 70; Ruger 77; Sako (current), Mossberg; Rem 700; Weatherby; Vanguard; Browning A-Bolt II; Magnum Research Mountain Eagle; T/C Rifle
338 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 12"....Browning BAR Mark II; Sako (old)
338 Lapua Magnum – 1 x 10"....Sako TRGS
338 Lapua Magnum – 1 x 12"....Sako TRG42
338-378 Weatherby – 1 x 10"...Weatherby Mk V
338-06 A-Square – 1 x 10" ......Weatherby Mk V
338 RUM - 1 in 10" .....Rem 700
340 Weatherby Magnum - 1 in 10"...Weatherby Mk V

348 Winchester - 1 in 12"... Browning 71; Win 71

9mm Luger - 1 in 10".....Colt; Marlin 9; Uzi Carbine
9mm Luger - 1 in 14" .....T/C Carbine
9x57 Mauser - 1 in 14"....Most Euro rifles
9.3x62 - 1 in 10".... CZ
9.3x62 - 1 in 14".....Most Euro rifles
9.3x64 - 1 in 14".....Most Euro rifles
357 Magnum - 1 in 14".....T/C Carbine
357 Magnum - 1 in 16".....Marlin 1894; Navy Arms RB
357 Magnum - 1 in 19"....Chiappa M92
357 Magnum - 1 in 18-3/4"......Win 94
357 Magnum - 1 in 26".....Win 94 Trapper
357 Magnum - 1 in 30".....Rossi 92
357 Rem. Maximum - 1 in 14"....T/C Carbine
35 Herrett - 1 in 14"....T/C Carbine
35 Remington - 1 in 12"....Savage 170
35 Remington - 1 in 14".....T/C Carbine
35 Remington - 1 in 16"......Marlin 336; Rem 81, 141, 600, 760
356 Winchester - 1 in 12".....Win 94BB
358 Winchester - 1 in 10" .....Browning BLR, Mannlicher-Schoenauer
358 Winchester - 1 in 12" ....Savage 99; Schultz & Larsen; Win 70, 88, 100
358 Winchester - 1 in 16" .....Ruger
35 Whelen - 1 in 14".....T/C Rifle
35 Whelen - 1 in 16" .....Rem 700, 7400, 7600; Ruger
350 Remington Magnum - 1 in 12"....Ruger 77 Mk II
350 Remington Magnum - 1 in 16"...Rem 600, 660, 700; Ruger 77
358 Norma Magnum - 1 in 12"....HVA; Schultz & Larsen

38-40 WCF - 1 in 24"...Win 1892 (SN390000 to SN675000)
38-40 WCF - 1 in 30"...Win 1892 (under SN390000)
38-40 WCF - 1 in 36"...Winchester 73, 1892-92 (SN67500 to end)
38-40 WCF - 1 in 38"....Marlin 1894/94
38-55 Winchester - 1 in 12"...T/C Carbine and Rifle
38-55 Winchester - 1 in 18" ...Ruger; Marlin 336 Cowboy, Savage 99
375 Winchester - 1 in 12" ....Win 94; Marlin 375; Savage 99; Ruger; T/C Carbine and Rifle
375 Ruger - 1 in 14"....Ruger
375 H&H Magnum - 1 in 12"...Rem 700; Win 70; Ruger; Sako; Browning A-Bolt II; Weatherby Mk V; Rem 700C; T/C Rifle; Savage
375 H&H Magnum - 1 in 14" .....FN Browning
375 Weatherby Magnum - 1 in 12"....Weatherby
375 RUM - 1 in 12" .....Rem 700
375 Dakota - 1 in 12" .....Dakota Arms
378 Weatherby Magnum - 1 in 12"...Weatherby Mark V

40 Smith & Wesson - 1 in 16"...S&W, T/C Carbine
10mm Auto - 1 in 16"....Most handguns
404 Dakota - 1 in 14"...Dakota Arms
405 Winchester - 1 in 14"...Ruger; Winchester

41 AE - 1 in 13-3/4"......Taurus
41 AE - 1 in 18".......Magnum Research Baby Eagle
41 Magnum - 1 in 14".....RPM
41 Magnum - 1 in 18".....Magnum Research Desert Eagle
41 Magnum - 1 in 18-1/2".... Marlin 1894
41 Magnum - 1 in 18-3/4"......Dan Wesson; Merrill; S&W
41 Magnum - 1 in 20"......Ruger; T/C
416 Remington Magnum - 1 in 14"....Rem 700; Winchester 70; Sako; T/C Rifle
416 Remington Mag. - 1 in 16 1/2" ...Ruger
416 Dakota - 1- 14" .....Dakota Arms

425 Express - 1 in 10"...Savage 116 SE

44 Special - 1 in 16".....Colt DA
44 Special - 1 in 18"....Charter Arms
44 Special - 1 in 20"....Chiappa M92; Colt SAA; S&W
44 Magnum - 1 in 14"....MOA
44 Magnum - 1 in 16"....Win 94
44 Magnum - 1 in 18"....AutoMag; Magnum Research Desert Eagle; Merrill; RPM
44 Magnum - 1 in 20" ... Abiline; Cimmaron; Freedom Arms; Ruger 96; T/C Carbine
44 Magnum - 1 in 22"....T/C
44 Magnum - 1 in 30"...Rossi 92
44 Magnum - 1 in 38" ...Henry Big Boy; Ruger Carbine; Marlin 336, 1894; Rem 788; Win 94; Browning 92
444 Marlin - 1 in 12"...Win 94BB Black Shadow
444 marlin - 1 in 20"....Win 94BB Timber Carbine, post-1998 Marlin (Ballard rifling)
444 Marlin - 1 in 38"...Marlin 336, 444S; Win 94BB Std carbine
44-40 WCF - 1 in 20"....Colt SAA
44-40 WCF - 1 in 24"....Win 1892 (SN390000 to SN675000)
44-40 WCF - 1 in 30"....Win 1892 (under SN390000)
44-40 WCF - 1 in 36"....Win 73, 1892 (SN675000 to end)
44-40 WCF - 1 in 38"....Marlin; Win

45 ACP - 1 in 16" .....Marlin 45
45 Colt - 1 in 16" .....Chiappa M92; Ruger; T/C Carbine
45 Colt - 1 in 26"......Win 92
45 Colt - 1 in 38"....Henry Big Boy; Marlin; Ruger; Win 94
454 Casull - 1 in 24".....Freedom Arms; Ruger
45 Winchester Mag. - 1 in 16".....T/C Carbine
45-70 - 1 in 14"......T/C Carbine
45-70 - 1 in 20" ......Ruger #1, #3; Marlin 1895S; Browning B-78/1885; T/C Rifle
45-70 - 1 in 22" ......Navy Arms
450 Marlin – 1 in 20".....Marlin 1895M, Winchester 94BB Timber
450 Dakota - 1 in 14" ......Dakota Arms
458 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 14"....Rem 700; Win 70; Ruger #1; Savage
458 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 15" ...Mannlicher-Schoenauer
458 Winchester Mag. - 1 in 16 1/2" ...Browning; Savage 116SE
458 Winchester Magnum - 1 in 18" ...Sako
450 Rigby - 1 in 17".....Most Euro rifles
460 Weatherby Magnum - 1 in 16"...Weatherby Mark V

.

 

[Grumpy]

interesting video showing the increased penetration of a cast bullet

 

[Grumpy]

I was asked a question that Id bet most newer guys don,t know the answer too?

grumpy Ive seen you state several times that youve shot completely through large game with a revolver using hard cast bullets, at reasonably low velocity,
your 44 mag and 500 mag loads should both produce about 1370 fps according to my research?
how can a 310 grain 44 mag load of 21 grains of H110 produce anywhere close to the penetration of your 500 mag load of 20 grains of blue dot under a 440 grain bullet?

thats a good damn question, but the answers obviously not too obvious to new hand loaders.
sectional density is the ratio of frontal area vs mass
this is easily calculated.
the larger the frontal area the greater the resistance to penetration,
this is why hollow point and rapidly expanding bullets penetrate far lower distances in game flesh and bone.

first lets work out the differences, between the two handguns then the comparisons
the way energy is calculated is

bullet weight x vel x vel divided by 450240= energy
a 310 grain 44 mag bullet at 1350 fps= 1255 ft lbs
a 440 grain 500 mag bullet at 1350 fps= 1781 ft lbs
neither load is MAX, but the 44 mag load is much closer to max than the 500 mag load, listed ,
BOTH loads were selected for, providing reasonable power and,
excellent REPEATABLE accuracy

a 500 mag has a .500 bore diameter.
a 44 mag has about a .429 bore,
as stated both listed loads produce near 1350 fps
a 310 grain 44 mag bullet has a .241 sectional density
a 440 grain 500 mag bullet has a .251 sectional density
thats only about a 5% difference
theres no question a 500 mag revolver hits harder and delivers more energy,
at the cost of significantly more recoil.
but because the sectional density, velocity and hard cast bullet's used are similar
so is the expected and actual penetration.
keep in mind the video used expanding bullets at much higher velocity,
that tends to drastically reduce penetration,
vs what you would reasonably expect too see with hard cast bullets used in those revolvers
I've seen several ballistic tests on gelatin blocks,
where both caliber;s were compared and hard cast bullets
,used exceeded 40" of gelatin penetration.
theres no question that the 460 S&W and 500 S&W can provide significantly more energy on impact than the 44 mag can,
but that does not necessarily represent deeper penetration,
and all three with hard cast bullets are documented to provide the punch to kill game the size of elk.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp?year=all

https://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/density.htm

https://www.chuckhawks.com/sd_beginners.htm

 

[Grumpy]

heres a link to rather interesting info on the use of heavy cast bullets in the 444 marlin

personally I think both the 45/70 and 450 marlin a superior choice

http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

 

[Maniacmechanic1]