LONG RANGE CALIBERS FOR ELK ARE NOT MANDATORY

[grumpyvette]

if your into rifles and ballistics these links are rather interesting
notice a 30/06 and a 338 win could be selected and used on just about all game for reasonable effect
if I use a 30/06,Ive generally selected a 165 grain bullet at about 2800 fps for deer and a 200 grain bullet at near 2500fps for elk,
and while using the heavier 338 win loads, I use of a 250 grain bullet at near 2600fps have near 70% more recoil its still likely to be under 35 ft lbs in an average 8.5 lb rifle,(rifle with ,sling,scope,scope mount, recoil pad, and possibly a bi-pod usually weights more) which is easily manageable with the correct accessories, and a sling and proper technique

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

http://www.chuckhawks.com/myth_busting_calibers.htm

 

[grumpyvette]

I'm doing an elk hunt this year here in Colorado. I've spent my life hunting elk on public land. Used 30-06, 270 wsm and even 30-30 to kill elk.

This year I've got the opportunity to hunt a small patch of private land near Aspen. When I say small, I mean small - less than 200 acres. I'm confident enough about shot placement, but depending on where they are they could run 50-75 yards and cross a property line. I need something that will more likely drop an elk in his tracks.

I'm guessing most shots will be 250 yards or less. I'm thinking about 444 Marlin with 265 gr, Lever Revolution. Thoughts?

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I've dropped several elk and a bunch of mule deer with a 340 wby loaded with 250 Hornady's and both of my 375 H&H rifles loaded with 270 grain hornady bullets , even a 270 win, loaded with 150 grain speers works well, and does the job, but a 405 grain remington from my 450 marlin loaded over 50 grains of IMR 3031 is what Id grab in the stated conditions, and I'd take the time to place the shot well.
Ive never used a 444 marlin on elk, but I know several guys who have using the 265 grain hornady bullets and they seem to be happy with the results, (as always shot placement is critical to getting good results)
WHY? well Im 100% confident in that rifles ability to dump elk on their nose with one good hit,
and while my 340 wby and 375 h&h are a close second, and have a well proven track record
,I like lever actions if I'm hunting thicker conifer or ASPEN.

don,t get hung up on velocity just get the most accurate load, and place the shot where it will do the most damage, and yeah, a 450 marlin using a 405 grain bullet is at its best at under 225 yards, but in thick timber where the elk hang out most of the time 100 yards is a very long range shot.

but theres zero reason to think that a well placed shot from a 30/06 loaded with a decent 180 grain soft point won,t do the job just as well if you shoot well

For those of you who elk hunt and actually still do some walking; what is your go to setup? I'd like to know the make, model, caliber and optic you rely on and please tell me how many miles you cover a day on average.

Pretty good question I think.
I suppose that if your carry was uncomfortable it really could turn to misery after a few miles.

I've hunted in a new unit each year for the past few years due to being displaced from my traditional unit. Most everywhere I've gone I've had to get a few miles back in before I felt I had any chance of an elk encounter. All-in-all I've hunted elk in 11 units in Colorado. Long hikes and short shots seems to hold true anywhere I've gone

My rig is nothing special - far from it.
It's a levergun, 7mag, 4x fixed power scope that has lost some of it's brightness, plenty of scratches, not very much blueing left. I vaguely recall it weighing ~8.5 lbs.
I like it because when I hike with it I hardly know that it is there and because it comes on-target quickly.

Seems like once I hike 90 minutes or so and pay my dues to get there then if the elk are around it is obvious. If not, more walking.

with the possible exception of the 7mag caliber,in that lever action, damn near everything else you mentioned sounds all too familiar among all the guys I hunt elk with, and I doubt the caliber selected, has much effect on the results, theres several BLR and marlin lever actions in calibers from 308 win , and 358 win,thru 45/70 and 450 marlin on the shoulders of many of my experienced friend when we hunt Colorado.
in fact I purchased a BLR in 450 marlin a few years ago just because I think it will be very useful in the thick aspen slopes, and brush in the canyon floor areas

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... 34&tid=006
most of the guys I hunt with use a rather simplistic method of making a wild ass guess at the games range before squeezing off a shot, keep in mind where I hunt and the conditions and ranges,this works remarkably well,remember shots are generally taken with a bi-pod sitting or leaning over as tree limb and about 80% plus are well under 250 yards, but set up time is generally only seconds as game moving thru trees tends to be out of site quickly

if you sight in your rifle 3.5 inches high at 100 yards and use a scope that has a 4x setting, tape a laminated trajectory chart the size of a business card to your stock
my late hunting partner thought the 358 win in his BLR was the ultimate ELK combo, he sighted in at 3.5" high at 100 yards, , the methods very fast and simple to use,and if you can easily count the antler tines without the scope you aim for the RED (X), if you can't easily count the tines in the scope set at 4x you aim at the green (X) you'll find that at 4X even big antler tines are not instantly easy to count out past 230 yards or so in timber so the method works just fine

heres my late hunting partners 358 win with a 250 speer that gave this trajectory
Range Velocity Impact Drop
0 2300 -1.5 0
50 2206 1.91 0
100 2118 3.53
150 2031 3.21
200 1947 0.76
250 1865 -3.98 RED (X) easily allows good hits to about 270 yards
300 1785 -11.24
shifting to the green (X) easily allows good hits to about 330 yards which is far further than he ever need too shoot
350 1708 -21.23
400 1634 -34.2
450 1563 -50.42
500 1494 -70.21

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IVE preferred to use my 340 wby resulting in this trajectory
Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2900 -1.5 0
50 2790 1.53
100 2688 3.46
150 2588 4.16
200 2491 3.57
250 2396 1.56
300 2303 -1.96RED (X) easily allows good hits to about 340 yards
350 2213 -7.12
400 2124 -14.07shifting to the green (X) easily allows good hits to about 420 yards which is far further than Ive ever need too shoot
450 2037 -22.96
500 1953 -33.93
yes I have an accurate range finder in my day pack, but the time available too use it is rarely available

340 mag I appreciate your Whelen posts and understand your usage of the 250 Speer. A few questions, 1. were the 250 Hornady bullets the SP or the RN? 2. I always use the 225 NPT in the Whelen ,have you tried them? Again I appreciate your sharing your collective Whelen experience. Magnum man

Ive never used or found a reason to try the Nosler Partitions in my whelen or my 358 win BLR, as the 250 grain speers seem to work almost ideally at the impact velocity they get used at, I have used the 250 grain hornady spire points, which I would use again if the 250 grain SPEERS were hard to get.
like I stated earlier the jackets seem to be a bit more rigid or impact resistant, on the hornady design, and the result is a bit slower expansion, but certainly not a problem. now I have used the nosler 250 grain .338, in my 340 wby and while I can hear the screams now from saying this, I found no real advantage over the 250 grain hornady spire points.
Ive shot a couple elk in the chest that were facing me with that hornady 250 grain in my 340 wby,and found the bullets in the gut or ham, certainly providing adequate penetration.here the 340 wby pushes the 250 grain to near 2900 fps and the hornadys more rigid copper jacket is an advantage, but remember the velocity at the muzzle is nearly 500 fps greater , the whelen pushes a 250 grain to about 2450 fps the wby 340 pushes the same weight to 2950 fps
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... -100-Count

NOSLER 250 grains cost twice as much and in my opinion don,t provide twice the performance ,or even any useful advantage over the hornady that has worked out fine for ME. yes you might feel differently and if you feel theres an advantage then by all means make the choice than you feel matches your needs the best.
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... n-50-Count

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... -100-Count

http://www.35cal.com/loading.html

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/amm ... en_200804/

ID also point out
I still use my 35 whelen 7600 pump action,and 358 win blr in far different and much more timbered areas where ranges seldom exceed 100 yards and in 45 plus years I can't remember taking a single shot with the 358 BLR or 35 whelen pump that exceeded 250 yards

remember I tend to hunt, and favor hunting in timbered canyons almost exclusively which may not look anything like where you hunt, so my experiences might be different,look at these pictures to get a idea, a couple years back we had a club meeting and we took a brief survey and in 30 plus years not a single member had even had the opportunity to see or shoot at any elk out at 300 yards, most were shot at an average ranges closer to 120 yards which means a good amount were shot at 30-60 yards in the thick timber

 

[Grumpy]

Hi guys,

I’m 38, and I occasionally hunt deer with my uncle in NH (near VT) and with my cousin in VA (Southwest, near the national forest). I always borrow their rifles because my job keeps me moving, and I don’t actually own my own hunting rifle. I’m currently working in a country which ranks a full tier below the “sh**hole” level of Haiti. It sucks, but I’m making some money. I want to get a deer rifle and scope as my little gift to myself, and the more I research and think about it, the harder it gets to narrow down the choices.

I’ve already figured out what I basically want, but still, the choices are overwhelming. Thanks to danger/hazard pay, the realm of custom rifles and high-end scopes isn’t off limits to me. I know many deer are taken with a Ruger American and a $100 scope, but I’m not spending a year of my life in this place to worry about money for my first rifle. So I’m leaning toward “high end” rather than “low end.”

About the type of rifle I am looking for, the NH and VA woods I hunt in are generally thick (not impenetrable swamp brush, but relatively dense woods) and somewhat hilly. I don’t recall being in a position we ever hunted in where I could have made more than a 75 yard shot (maybe 100 yards max). One thing that has influenced me is the time I shot a button buck with my cousin’s .270 at about 20 yards and gut-shot the heck out of him (thankfully the bullet went off a rib and hit his lung). The rifle was sighted in, so we figured the relatively-light .270 bullet deflected off of a twig or branch. So I’m wanting a “woods gun” with a heavy bullet and enough oomph to drop deer in their tracks. The way we hunt, I’ve never had to carry a rifle more than half a mile or so, so it doesn’t have to be a light “mountain gun.” It can be a bit heavier (9 pounds altogether or so), especially to tame a thumper caliber. On the subject of “thumper,” I don’t live in Michigan or Indiana, but I’ve been reading about the .450 Bushmaster and how much it has grown on folks there.

I know some might think I’m crazy for even considering a .450 Bushmaster bolt gun (not the AR variant) since I hunt in NH and VA and have the choice of any rifle caliber I want, but it’s on the list of calibers I am considering. I’m not dead-set on it. I’m just thinking about it. Seems the market has responded well to the new rules out there, and there appear to be some custom rifle smiths in Michigan making some really nice .450 Bushmaster bolt guns that people are loving. Lever actions are also on the list of possibilities. 30-30 is a possibility, although I’d probably lean toward .44 magnum or 45-70.

Let me say that my cousin and friends usually hunt with high power rifle calibers (30-06, 300 WM, etc.). Unfortunately, I’ve seen them turn enough deer meat into deer jelly. I see a lot of value in a heavy, slower caliber that drops a deer quickly, but in a different way… Now they say they can hit stuff at 600 yards, and I believe them, but I’ve never seen them hunt at those distances.

Regarding scopes, I’m debating between topping my “woods gun” with a fixed-power 2.5x or 4x scope or a “tactical” 1-4x or 1-6x scopes. You can pay whatever you want for one of those, but I’m willing to go up to $1,500. Of course, a fixed 4x Weaver costs $200, and the fixed 4x Leupold costs $300. I’m looking hard at the Weaver tactical 1-5x at $700. Nikon also makes a good one in that price range. I would like my “woods gun” to be an absolutely reliable tack-driver at 100 yards that can drop Bambi (or his dad) dead in his tracks. It doesn't matter to me if things drops off precipitously at 200 yards, so I don’t need a caliber or scope capable of 200+ yard accuracy -- but within 150 yards or so, the performance of the equipment (assuming I’m doing my part) must be perfect, and I’m willing to pay for it. If it helps, my budget is probably $3,000 to $4,000 at the high end for the entire thing (rifle, scope, mount, rings). I’m not hell-bent on spending that much, but I am willing to spend that much, if that makes sense.

Even having a pretty good idea of what I want, when I start looking at calibers and builds and custom makers and options, it gets overwhelming. I’m thinking I should just pick something up my alley, order the darned thing, and enjoy it. Any thoughts or suggestions? Am I way off in my thinking about calibers? About scopes? Any testimonials or suggestions?

I figured I could come here and get some guidance and suggestions before just pulling the trigger. Any feedback or advice

given the info stated above ,Id be looking for a
browning blr in caliber 358 win you might not be impressed with the paper balistics ,but if you load a speer 250 grain bullet over 44 grains of imr 4064 and use a federal 215 primer like I and several of the guys I hunt with do, and if you shoot well, youll be impressed with the result.
sight in 3.5" high at 100 yards and youll be near dead on at 200 and about 10" low at 300 yards
and a Nikon scope, you could pay more but that combo would allow you to kill anything you could reasonably hunt out to 300 plus yards, my late hunting partner used one for decades with zero problems too, and killed over a dozen elk in 30 plus years using the 250 grain speer bullet, (that is a health chunk of lead,) and a load of 44 grains oh IMR 4064 and a fed 215 primer.

I received a brief e-mail asking why I seem to be promoting the 450 marlin BLR
Im not promoting any caliber or action type, simply pointing out what I see rather frequently, used.

one of my close hunting partners for 3 decades carried almost nothing but a pre 1981 BLR in caliber 358 win, he was quite successful,
enough so that I purchased a post 1981 BLR, in caliber 358 win and later one in caliber 450 marlin,
both are very dependable hunting rifles, that Id carry with zero reservations,
as both consistently are fully able to shoot 1.5" 100 yard three shot groups off the bench rest.
and yes the function and triggers improve as they get a bit of wear and you become more familiar with their use.
having TOTAL confidence in the rifle and cartridge you use is a HUGE factor in making you both enjoy and not worry about your potential success.
I have guys bring up questions , concerning the suitability , range limitations and other factors,that many guys bring up concerning the rifles they select to hunt with,
its been my experience that most of the guys who might stay up nights worrying about their rifle or cartridges potential ability to kill at extended ranges ,
or might worry about the rifle they use, suitability, lack of rapid repeat fire potential, range limitations, or potential lack of lethality,
well, many of the same guys both lack extensive field experience and hands on practice, once you've made a few dozen hunts,
and got in some actual experience,,the concerns over your personal choice in equipment selected seems to fade, or changes get made.
my late hunting partner came to love and depend on a browning BLR in caliber 358 win, for both ELK and mule deer,on several occasions we had new guys in the club ,
ask him if he felt he was at a distinct disadvantage, after all if he sighted the rifle in using the load he came to depend on (44 grains of imr 4064 under a 250 speer bullet)
it was, 3.5" high at 100 yards, dead on at 200 yards and about 10 inches low at 300 yards (certainly a 270 win or 30/06 Springfield, shoots flatter,)
at first that question bothered him a bit, but after hunting for 30 plus years he would just smile,
and point out that he had never once even seen any elk out past about 250 yards, thus the concern over flat trajectory was a non-issue in his experience.
and the lethality of that BLR in his hands was well documented.
decent quality optics are mandatory
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....x42mm-30mm-tube-nikoplex-reticle-matte-finish

match that BLR to a high quality optic and you have a very lethal combo
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....5-2half-10x40mm-nikoplex-reticle-matte-finish
I've used a similar BLR 358 win for a few years and there's not a thing I can find wrong with it for hunting thick timber
learn to hand-load that 358 win ammo and the cost of ammo drops by at least 50% or more
look at this chart, a center chest hold works out to nearly 270 yards, place the horizontal cross hair on the bucks back , and the vertical just on the rear edge of the front leg, if you think its over 270 yards and your good to 350 yards with that 250 speer load in that 358 blr

you certainly not going too need a 458 lott or 458 win to hunt elk, but both rifles hand-loaded
to hot 45/70 power levels make excellent thick timber elk rifles where range under 200 yards are the rule and a 400 grain bullet at perhaps 1800 fps-2200 fps make a very effective elk hunting rifle

https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/Peep_Sights.asp#Weaver

 

[Grumpy]

I got asked why I had not suggested a Browning BAR in caliber 300 win mag ?
theres not a damn thing wrong with the Browning BAR, and I have used one in caliber 338 win on a couple hunts
I have too point out the rifle type action and caliber you use, is and always has been in my experience,
far less important than having the skill and knowledge to find and get close to elk/deer,
and use your knowledge of terrain and foliage ,to get very close to game
I can,t think of a single valid reason to not have selected the BAR other than ,
I have almost constantly and consistently walked out the door in the past with a browning 78 falling block in 300 wby or the BLR in 358 win.

I guess its something like some guys like blondes, or red-heads and I like long legged brunettes with big boobs
theres no logic used in accounting for personal preference.

In my opinion, if you have years of success, using some favorite rifle and cartridge,
it makes no logical sense in my opinion to run out and purchase the latest firearm or cartridge being promoted.
if you've seen as much game dropped very effectively with a wide variety of rifles and calibers as I have over decades,
it becomes obvious that anything from a 257 roberts up to a 458 win gets the job done in experienced hands,
its just not that hard to kill deer and elk, if you know the games anatomy,
your rifles trajectory and if you can hit exactly where you want too.
theres little doubt that some choices have more power and longer range advantages over others ,
but that does not make a skilled and experienced rifleman less effective with his choice of rifle and cartridge if hes willing to work within the limitations his rifle/cartridge choice has.
personally I prefer a 340 wby with a 250 grain bullet or a 375 h&h with a 270 grain bullet,(decades of success, and no failures, make those personal favorites)
but I would grab a 270 win with a premium 150 grain and have zero worries.
if that was my only option, and adapt how and where I hunted as a result!
but I would not try shots with a 270 in my hands that I would without any hesitation feel 100 % confidence in making with a 375 H&H or 340 wby.
theres always been a trade off in the rifles weight,
(ease of carrying )
velocity, (flat trajectory , or reach,)
its impact power,(weight and diameter of the projectile )
and as a result of the choices made , its recoil.
theres plenty of evidence that a small properly placed projectile can produce a lethal wound,
theres also a good deal of physics that say a larger mass projectile moving at reasonable velocity ,
can produce a deeper and larger diameter wound, the trade off is increased recoil.
you can,t dispute simple physics, a larger mass at a similar velocity hits a harder blow on impact.
(and generally induces more recoil on the shooters shoulder.)
and once the projectile from your rifle of choice,
can from any reasonable range or angle produce a lethal wound, on the game hunted,
and the trajectory over the vast majority of the ranges your likely to be confronted with allows easy shot placement,
theres no reason to select something with more velocity or a heavier projectile.
the projectile does all the work on impact and,
the technology, of bullet design, has improved in recent decades
https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi
your ability to tolerate recoil generally will vary with the rifles stock design,
use of a sling and recoil pad, muzzle brake ,and it varies with your position you shoot from, your body size,
total experience and training to some extent.
having confidence in your choice is a significant factor in your ability to successfully hunt.
Ive seen a 257 Roberts drop elk rather quickly at about 150-to-180 yards a couple times, moved less than 30-40 yards
Ive seen an elk act like a shot from a 7mm mag was marginal, as it ran over 80 yards with a lung/liver destroyed,
yet the next two shot with the same rifle dropped inside a few steps.
being a bit pragmatic I watch what other people used and see the results they have gotten.
Ive consistently seen good results from a 358 win with a 250 grain bullet and a 340 wby with a 250 grain bullet,
Ive seen a 270 win with a 150 grain bullet and a 30/06 with a 200 grain bullet year after year produce one shot kills,
it eventually became obvious to me that there was some advantage in the heavier projectiles,
(consistent deep penetration )and that impact velocity's over about 3000 fps,
and use of bullets with less than a .240 sectional density,
can cause rather unpredictable bullet performance
the game, well hit in the vitals, was much more likely to drop in a few steps
but damn near any rifle in skilled hands would work.
Id also point out, to be fair, that in over 50 years of hunting,
I've rarely shot game or seen game shot at ranges exceeding about 250 yards.
my late hunting partner RON,used a browning BLR in 358 win, and though I was insane, he referred to my rifles as "CANNONS" the odd thing was we both were regularly successful , beating the state 20% average hunter success in our group regularly.
one other rather successful member AL,has a 6.5mm Swedish mauser , its got a long successful record also and FRANK prefers a 308 win with 200 grain speer bullets
its not the rifle,
its the experience and the skill and tenacity of the guy holding that rifle that maters more.
the first year I brought my marlin 45/70 to elk camp I had it loaded with a 400 grain hard cast gas check bullet design, I had intended to use it to hunt the thick timber where shots seldom exceed 100 yards
after the first few days when elk tended to spend the day in heavy timber. I brought my sako 375 H&H carbine,that year for my main rifle.
as things worked out one of the guys I hunted with that year slipped and broke his rifles scope and mounts,on opening day, his rifle had no iron sights
he borrowed my marlin 45/70 and was very much concerned it would not have the reach of his busted,300 win mag.
about 3-4 days into the hunt, he got a shot at a legal bull partly facing him at about 80 yards, he squeezed off a shot and though he missed, as he could not see the elk run, the bullet impacted center chest and exited behind the mid ribs on the right side after punching through over 2 feet of elk, the elk had dropped so fast he never saw it drop as he recovered from recoil, (2.5X scope) what made it even more memorable was he was the only one to fill his elk tag that trip!
he became a 45/70 convert and purchased a marlin 45/70 the next year and Ive loaded for him ever since.
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...70&Weight=405&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
he likes hand loads with 45 grains of RL7 under this bullet
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/63...nose-gas-check

now that being stated I can't think of a single reason that you would not be perfectly armed with a 35 whelen, 300 win mag or 338 win mag BAR
or with a browning 78 falling block in 300 wby or the BLR in 358 win.
the only thing I will point out is that the BAR and B78 are both exceptionally well made rifles,
that have both metal and wood finished to a glass like mirror finish,
so to both protect the Finish and to keep that mirror like shine,
from letting every person or animal within several thousand yards seeing that flash, from that gorgeous, high quality,surface,
and reflected sun light like if you were carrying a couple large mirrors I have always purchased a couple girls/womens support hose.
I tie/dye them in light grey and tan and sage green and that slipped over the stock front and back provides some protection and allows you to hunt with no flashy surface
(BTW I also do the same thing with all my hunting rifles, but its MANDATORY with the BAR and B78 as those are always exceptionally shiny)

https://www.amazon.com/Rit-Dye-Liqu...rd_wg=XWJGL&psc=1&refRID=76B07JG0351Q51W95D4E

and a dozen large rubber bands

THESE PICTURE's POSTED BELOW ARE OF THE TYPE OF AREA I HUNT FREQUENTLY FOR ELK,
to successfully hunt similar areas you need to be very observant,
of the extreme edges of your visual reach over the full 360 degrees surrounding you, while you move through the terrain,
into the areas that elk prefer to travel through and bed in,
and yes you need too move slowly enough to not be easily noticed by the game as you travel through their home and secure areas.
once your familiar with hunting elk in the timber you'll rather quickly realize
you'll rarely get shots over 70-90 yards , but you'll also find you need to make rapid accurate shots from quickly acquired field positions, from the time you see an elk to the time you need to take an accurate shot , may and most likely will be under 10-15 seconds, thats not much time to assess the games horns and the body shot angles to place a lethal shot, thats also why rifles like a 358 win or 450 marlin BLR make a damn effective choice.

the 450 marlin BLR is a very good quality rifle,
with good ammo 1.5" 3 shot, 100 yard groups are very common of a solid bench rest,
I think you grow to really appreciate over time, especially if matched to decent optics
find a load your rifle likes.
it will hammer any deer or elk inside 250 yards with good ammo and decent shot placement,
obviously youll want to practice shooting from field positions

you simply sight in, off the bench at 100 yards, put the scope cross hair centered ,
(at 100 yards off the bench) on the yellow dot,
and have all the shots print over the smaller red dot,
SO THAT when you get out in the field,put the scope cross hair centered where the light green dot is on the deer or elk, diagram above,
it will produce a fatal wound out a bit past 250 yards,(well past any range youll need so no range calc required if you can see clearly at low optic power, )
you sure don,t have to use this method or even agree but I can assure you its resulted in a bunch of dead, deer or elk
the vital organs or most effective shot placement is about an 8"-to-10" up, from lower chest, line, just behind the front leg and about mid chest ideally in a circle in the chest where the projectile will destroy the heart and lungs, that .458 caliber slug is already as big as several smaller caliber rifle bullets typically expand too before it expands so it devastates deer and its very lethal on elk with good shot placement.

https://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

it should not take a genius too understand that in a repeater like a marlin or BLR the over all cartridge length must be close to a standard designed length to function reliably regardless of the projectile weight, selected, thus longer projectiles will extend a great deal deeper into the case taking up valuable propellant space, the trade-off tends to make it very difficult in the limited case capacity of the 45/70 and 450 marlin. too efficiently push bullets much over about 430 grains to velocities, at the safe limits in pressure, that provide both reasonably flat trajectory and high retained energy

 

[T-Test]

I've always used an old lever action 30-30 for game in places like that, which is most areas of N.C. Shot placement with most any rifle regardless of caliber will give the results needed.
Have killed deer and hogs with a 22 cal. rifle just by being on target for the kill shot area. Not legal in all states but still effective when used. JMHO

 

[Grumpy]

heres a few pictures some lucky hunter took on his elk hunt,
look hard at the country , ....rather typical in my experience ,
and youll see why, my late hunting partner never felt at any disadvantage .,
using a browning BLR in caliber 358 win,
that was sighted dead on at 200 yards.
his load was a charge of 44 grains of IMR4064 and a 215 fed primer
https://www.speer-ammo.com/products/bullets/rifle-bullets/hot-cor-rifle-bullet/2453
I doubt he ever had a shot that got close to 200 yards in over 35 years we hunted.
that 250 grain speer bullet did a rather remarkable and consistent job on elk when well placed.

 

[Grumpy]

I got asked if I ever tried long range riflery,
most deer and elk Ive shot were at under 80 yards, many were well under 50 yards,
but I had and regularly use a 340 wby , and I do, practice regularly at a range that has a 500 yard gong,
I don;t recommend most people shooting over 300 yards , but I was in my mid 40s at the time and felt confident,
and had an opportunity to shoot a nice 4x4 mule deer back in the 1990s
at what I estimated was 550 yards,
I can,t remember shooting at over 350 yards more than two other times,
but yeah Ive done it and every time I did it was prone with a bi-pod and I was successful!
even in the scope at the time that deer looked rather small, but impressive,
my average walking pace distance is about 28 "
it was 702 paces from where I took my shot , lying with my bi-pod equipped rifle over a back pack and behind it in the snow,
shooting prone ,to make that shot on the deer , and the buck dropped on bullet impact
I was using the hornady 225 grain bullet pushed to 3000 fps
I was sighted in 3.5" high at 100 yards and held the horizontal cross hair about 3 feet over the deers spine,
or just a bit higher than the 500 yard gong at the range,
at the shot my buddy started laughing, he said, damn, what luck,
that deer had a heart attack laughing at you trying to hit it at that range,
now your probably going to insist you actually hit it"
I stayed where I was and guided my buddy to the deers location with hand signals
he pretended he could not find the buck!
when I got frustrated I walked over to him in a direct strait line,
counting paces to where I found him sitting on my buck.
and yes I have always had a laminated drop chart taped to my rifles butt stock, I probably should not have even tried that shot but I felt sure I could hit the targeted area on the deers chest and I did so.

 

[Grumpy]

 

[Grumpy]

One of the guys I've made several elk hunts in the past with that Id not even talked to in over a year,
he had along with his son, un-expectedly stopped by with his 30 something year old son,
they wanted to talk about a few hunts we made, and the son,
wanted some reassurance that what his dad had suggested in selecting a rifle and cartridge was correct.
the son , was looking at some newer 6.5mm bolt action, and that would certainly work, with the correct ammo
Howa HCR

,but moneys tight and RAYMON had suggested he use his old elk rifle, to save money.
Id be the last guy to suggest buying a new rifles a waste of money,
but Im not a big fan of tactical rifles for elk hunts either.
and by the time he purchased a rifle and scope,
he wanted, he would be investing over $2300
I put on a pot of coffee for myself,
and he and his son, had a couple cold beers while we waited for it to brew,
While I waited ,I looked around and found some old photos, Among other things ,
I showed him some of the pictures we took over 20 years ago of his dad and an elk he had shot.
the guys dad, RAYMON, had used a Winchester lever action loaded with the same ammo that RON and I had both used in our 358 BLR carbines.
he had peep sights on his rifle, this resulted in a lighter and handier carbine,
for use in the aspens and steep slopes that adding a big scope added would not have
a great deal of elk habitat I've hunted looks like these pictures.

on that hunt and his elk was shot at about 110 yards while it trotted through aspens.

a speer 250 grain bullet over 44 grains of imr 4064 powder and a 215 federal primer
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_bullets/hot-cor_rifle_bullet/19-2453.html
sight in at 3.5" high at 100 yards your about dead on at 200 yards and about 10" low at 300 yards
his dad, had zero issues using that load in a 358 win carbine ,
and neither did RON or I with that load in our 358 caliber BLR carbines,

the reassurance and pictures, of several dead elk seemed to help RAYMONS son, a great deal.
honestly elk are not bullet proof and Id say more than 90% of the elk I shot over 45 plus years were killed at under 250 yards.
its NOT the rifle or cartridge you select, its more your skill and consistent ability under field conditions,
to place that first shot where it belongs and a good knowledge of ELK anatomy!
Id have zero issues using anything from a 270 or 308 win or larger,

and while were discussing his dads 358 winchester, use on a past hunt,
damn near any 270-30/06, or 7mm or larger cartridge should work.
as a general rule, in selecting a decent rifle,
I personally would want, a minimum of 150 grains of bullet weight,
and at least 2500 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle
more bullet mass or velocity or muzzle energy certainly won,t hurt,
but its shot placement not power thats critical.

BTW
bullet weight in grains x velocity x velocity /450240= energy
a 358 win
250 grains x 2350 fps x 2350 fps /450240=3066 ft lbs

and its certainly a well documented and lethal elk hunting choice
its not the cartridge or rifle choice, nearly as much as the experience and skill of the guy holding the rifle,
precise shot placement is always critical to success,
and you can,t ignore physics,
a larger mass projectile traveling at similar or higher velocity imparts greater impact energy,
and damage and tends to penetrate deeper, given equal construction.

and his understanding of the games anatomy and his rifles limitations
my late hunting partner RON used a BLR lever action in caliber 358 win for decades,
while its not as flat shooting or high velocity as a 270 win,
it certainly worked rather effectively with its 250 grain bullet on every elk he shot.
His favorite load was a speer 250 grain bullet at about 2350 fps ,
loaded over 44 grains of imr 4064
neither guy failed to kill elk with a single well placed shot

 

[Grumpy]

no ones condemning anyone or anything,
his dad simply stopped by my home with his son, who wanted to have someone with experience point out that HIS DADS old elk rifle was more than adequate to the potential task at hand.
It would be great if we all had unlimited and bottomless checking accounts and could buy any damn thing that struck our fancy, thats not reality,
and RAMON'S (THE FATHER) is all ready forking out well over $5K on this next year's elk hunt. for him and his son.
yes, the kid might want and will most likely will , eventually buy a rifle he likes, rather than use his dad's rifle..
I don,t know many of my fellow hunters that have not used hand-me-down or borrowed equipment,
especially when we were just getting started and we were younger,
finances do dictate choices, and you really don,t NEED the newest option to hunt successfully!

 

[Grumpy]

MAYBE a new hunter or younger person won't want to use a perfectly fine rifle, NOT of the type THEY WANT to use!
be \it so called peer pressure like mind sets, or well, SPOILED KIDS are all over,
that want everything handed to them and far too many parents are willing to give in to those kids and young adults that WHINE loud enough or long enough!

OR cry to enough people(grand parents are WAY good at spoiling kids too these days)

SO< just cause a KID wants a new rifle, isn't a bad thing and today more than ever it might BE NEEDED, to get them to hunt!
sad but true IMO

common sense doesn't seem to be a strong value in many of the current generations,
looks and style/image/ matter more than things that WORK!
the world of marketing has truly warped the minds of many in today's world!

 

[Grumpy]

I GOT ASKED WHAT MY FAVORITE RIFLE WAS.... WELL THERES ACTUALLY SEVERAL I USED FOR DECADES.
yes I'm A CONFIRMED RIFLE LOONEY, AND I APPRECIATE A DARN GOOD QUALITY AND ACCURATE RIFLE!
IF YOU DON,T KNOW THE AREA YOULL HUNT,
YOU GENERALLY SELECT A RIFLE THAT HAS A FLAT TRAJECTORY AND THE POWER TO REACH OUT,
BUT A RIFLE LIKE MY 340 WBY IS FAR FROM IDEAL IN THICK TIMBER,
WHERE SHOTS OVER 100 YARDS ARE RARE,
SO I GENERALLY BROUGHT TWO RIFLES, ON OUT OF SATE HUNTS, AND MOST REARS I HAD BOTH ELK AND DEER LICENCES.
YOU CAN CERTAINLY USE A DEER RIFLE ON ELK OR AN ELK RIFLE FOR DEER, BUT
MOST ELK RIFLES DO A BETTER JOB IN MY OPINION.
I personally would want, a minimum of 150 grains of bullet weight,
and at least 2500 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle,
AND WHILE ITS CERTAINLY NOT REQUIREDI PERSONALLY HAVE MUCH MORE CONFIDENCE IN USE OF A RIFLE THAT THROWS A 200-270 GRAIN 34-38 CALIBER BULLET
btw Id point out that I've used several rather favorite guns on most deer and elk hunts
iD GENERALLY TAKE THE 340 WEATHERBY AS A PRIMARY RIFLE AND ONE OF THE OTHERS PICTURED BELOW AS MY BACK-UP CLOSE TIMBER RIFLE
GETTING OUT IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS AND LIVING OUT OF A TENT AND BACK-PACK,
JUST FELT NATURAL AND DID WONDERS FOR MAKING ME FEEL RELAXED.
FOR ABOUT 40 YEARS I MADE IT A POINT TO HUNT AT LEAST ONE AND SEVERAL YEARS TWO OR MORE STATES,
OVER AT LEAST A TWO WEEK VACATION.
AS AN ENGINEER FOR AT&T I HAD 4-5 WEEKS VACATION TIME EACH YEAR,
3 WEEKS I SPENT WITH THE WIFE AND KIDS
AND I RESERVED TWO WEEKS MINIMUM EVERY YEAR FOR HUNTING
I like trying new things occasionally, but I basically hunted with these four rifles.
now for western mule deer hunts I generally used rifles like a 270 win ruger single shot or a browning 78 single shot, in 300 wby mag,
and they ALL WORKED JUST FINE
while RON, who was almost my constant partner for decades used a 358 BLR and rarely a SAVAGE 338 win bolt action,
I used a 340 wby fibermark as my primary rifle on most ELK hunts,
but I purchased a BLR in caliber 358 win ,
basically a clone of Rons rifle,
358 win is 53,000 psi
with a 250 grain speer bullet
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....250-grain-hot-cor-spitzer-soft-point-50-count
sighted in at 3.5" high at 100 yards,
using 44 grains of imr 4064 AND A 215 FEDERAL PRIMER
(how everyone in our hunt club does it)
a 358 win will be about dead on at 200 yards and about 10 inchs low at 300 yards

btw
the speer 220 gain flat tip .358 bullet ,
loaded over 51 grains of 748 winchester powder
and a 215 federal primer has proven to be very effective on hogs and deer,
if used in a 358 win BLR

https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_bullets/
it would certainly kill elk but most if not all my friends vastly prefer the 250 grain speer bullet for elk.


and a remington 7600 slide action in caliber 35 whelen,
and I had a 4 decades long fling with a SAKO bolt action in caliber 375 H&H.
IF YOUR A FELLOW RIFLE AFICIONADO, YOULL RECOGNIZE THE FACT I LIKE HARD HITTING RIFLES
I've NEVER SEEN ANY REASON TO NOT USE A RIFLE THAT WILL PUNCH THROUGH TO THE GAMES VITALS FROM ANY SEMI PLAUSIBLE RANGE OR ANGLE.
ESPECIALLY AFER HELPING TRACK GAME OTHER PEOPLE SHOT THAT FAILED TO FALL RAPIDLY...
MOSTLY DUE TO BAD SHOT PLACEMENT NOT LACK OF RIFLE POWER
AND YES I CAN RECOMMEND ANY OF THE RIFLES PICTURED AS ALL WORKED FLAWLESSLY

BLR in 358 win

35 whelen

375 H&H

 

[Grumpy]

bits of advice that might prove helpful to most people
(personally I think he has far more faith in light calibers,)
than my experience has suggested work.
personally I look at the 270 win with the 150 grain PREMIUM bullet as a reasonable minimum
accurate shot placement always beats max power with less accuracy.
as I've stated else ware, get close, and where I've hunted ELK for decades 350 yards is a very long shot you'll seldom need to take,
simply because elk tend to stay in the timber, aspen, conifer, and canyons and oak brush.
in the more productive areas you just can't see past 120 yards in most cases.
obviously different terrain will tend to force you to make different choices, but a 30/06-35 whelen, 300 wby-0r -338 win will seldom be a bad option

 

[Grumpy]

there's always been a lively discussion among elk hunters concerning the best cartridge ,
but I watch what they carry, and use!(Id point out I've hunted ELK in deep wooded canyons for 5 decades)
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/july18/thickt1.jpg


http://www.grumpysperformance.com/july18/thickt2.jpg
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/july18/thickt3.jpg


http://www.grumpysperformance.com/july18/thickt4.jpg

the truth is and always has been its the skill of the hunter and his knowledge of the cartridges limitations,
and proper shot placement that far exceeds the cartridge you choose in making a successful hunt.
the hunter understanding the games anatomy and knowing where to shoot to have bullets destroying the vitals is critical
one of the older guys I hunted with for decades used a 257 roberts very successfully.
but he never shot elk at over 200 yards and only took shots that easily reached the vitals
after 5 decades of hunting elk Id suggest the 338 win or 35 whelen, with a premium 250 grain bullet.
as the most useful compromise's in an, elk cartridge if you wanted an effective compromise,
but truthfully, watching what other guys bring into elk camp,
I've used and most of the guys I hunted with use a BLR in 358 win
, a slide action remington 7600 in 35 whelen and a BLR in 30/06 for most hunts in timbered areas,
simply because most elk are shot at well under 200 yards.
once the elk retreat to the, conifer & aspen and oak brush, timber after the first few days.
and my 340 wby and 375 H&H on most opening few days where you might require a longer shot.
I've never regretted carrying a my 340 wby and 375 H&H,
but many people say you need to have masochistic tendencies' to hunt elk.
but I'm the only guy that still used a magnum bolt gun, on most hunts.
Im sure theres lots of guys screaming at the keyboard where's the 300 mags?
well there's zero question they are lethal and effective if the 180-200 grain and up premium bullets are used and the flat trajectories nice.
but after helping dress out several elk killed with the 300 mags the bullets seem to turn into glitter and a great deal of meats wasted,,,
your choice , but I and know most of the old geezers I hunt with, and after decades, most prefer to use the cartridges throwing the heavier larger diameter bullets at below 3000 fps,and they realize you will carry that rifle in rough country for many days ,
before you get a shot opportunity and have only seconds to make a shot at a walking elk, in most cases,
if that rifles on a sling over your shoulder vs in your hands you'll miss chances.
your not going to get a classic broadside shot,
your going to need deep penetration from less than ideal angles to reach the vitals.
and since most of my hunting partners use rifles chambered in 358 win, 35 whelen or 45/70 using heavier bullet weights!
( from experience Id suggest use of 180-200 grain in 30 caliber, 225-250 grain in 338 caliber, 250 grain 35 caliber and 400-405 grain in 45 caliber)
,most guys I hunt with like to carry a remington 7600 in 30/06 or 35 whelen or a lever action in 308, 45/70 , 450 marlin, or 358
I get the distinct feeling that most guys don't like magnum recoil, magnum muzzle blast
and carrying a longer heavier rifle is much less favored,
having a quick second shot available seems to be a strong consideration, but a well placed heavy bullets rapidly lethal
among the more experienced members and almost every guy owns but does not bring a 7 rem mag or 300 mag bolt action.
yes all the magazines say you need a 400 yard plus range, in 5 decades I had only two opportunities to even see an elk past 300 yards

 

[Grumpy]