mini, maxi or round ball for ELK?

[grumpyvette]

mini, maxi or round ball for ELK
between my friends and myself we have used all three projectiles on ELK in several states over the years,
ON most hunts I use mostly 54 and 58 caliber hawken style rifles,
hunting with a muzzle loading rifle is generally a fairly close range sport compared to modern rifles,
the rifles are most effective under 150 yards.

https://cdn.trackofthewolf.com/Pdfs/catalog/page_420.pdf

not one of my elk ,but one dropped with a muzzle loader at close range

loads have varied as each rifle likes a different charge weight and type of powder.
my custom built 58 caliber hawken style rifle has a 42 inch 1" barrel and prefers round patched balls,
over either 95 or 110 grains of 1f , powder charges,
its a heavy but very accurate rifle.
my friend jack prefers a tc renegade 54 cal with mini balls over 80 grains of 3f
AL likes a 58 mini in his 1861 Springfield replica loaded with 76 grains of 2f
the main thing we found is that like most hunts its shot placement more than caliber or the projectile that counts,
even a soft lead mini doesn't always exit and the soft lead round balls seldom do, but they all kill very effectively.
but when selecting an ELK hunting muzzle loader your limited to 50 cal or larger in some states so keep that in mind
they may not have nearly the energy of a modern rifle or velocity, they depend on accurate shot placement and projectile mass/inertia to get the job done,
so the larger 50-54-and 58 -69 calibers have a distinct advantage, especially in states that limit you to a round ball projectile keep in mind you need to match the rifle's twist rate, to the projectile used, most rifle's will shoot a patched round ball very accurately, once you find the individual rifles preferred powder charge and patch combo,
mini and maxi balls can be noticeably harder to find an accurate load for if the rifling is not designed to use them.
round balls don't retain energy, or accuracy as well as the better mini/maxi ball designs do at longer ranges

https://cdn.trackofthewolf.com/Pdfs/catalog/page_420.pdf

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/catalog/page_205.pdf

what do you guys use on ELK HUNTS ??
ITS NOT ENERGY BUT PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT, YOULL NEED TOO ACCURATELY PLACE SHOTS WHERE YOU WANT THEM TO IMPACT THAT COUNTS.
A GOOD KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAMES ANATOMY AND YOUR ABILITY for PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT IS CRITICAL
a good knowledge of a deer's or elks anatomy is also mandatory ,
remember an arrow muzzle loader mini or round ball, or revolver bullet kills by rapid blood loss and critical organ failure,
so accurate hits are mandatory for rapid results
you can't just slice, or punch holes in random parts of the games anatomy and get rapid kills.
some of the faster velocity rifle bullets , and larger diameter pistol bullets add an additional factor, of hydro-static shock , especially when a bullet impacts at about 2200 fps- or higher velocity and it has either a flat melplat (nose or it expands on impact)

, theres an energy shock wave that travels through the internals and this crushes and rips tissue the bullet itself never touched.

Ive always been into the older traditional muzzle loaders of the mountain man hawken type , mostly in 58-62 caliber

I recently was asked if I thought a 50 caliber front loader,
would be adequate for elk hunting, and if you look around you'll very quickly see that 50 caliber is becoming a favorite calibe,
in many newer muzzle loaders.
I'll freely admit Ive never used a 50 cal front loader on elk, I've always used my 58 cal or 62 cal,
but a maxi ball over 100 grains of 2F seemed to work well every time so far,
and in my two hawken style rifles groups under 2.5" at 100 yards are common off a good rest,

READ THIS

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-bore-clean-and-accuracy-consistant.4638/

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/supporto/9SUGGESTED BLACK POWDER LOADS.pdf

BTW for DEER AND HOGS but not ELK, you can load a .58 cal Hawken rifle using a 20 ga. shot cup with two .535 round balls stacked in line. Loaded over 85 grs. 2f black powder, a cotton ball, then a bore diameter ball of the soap lube., then the shot cup with the two round lead balls, be damn sure the column is firmly seated on the powder charger,
the two lead balls penetrate more than deeply enough for deer and almost always impact within 3"-5" , usually vertically from each other near the point of aim.

this is the same soap base grease in a larger container and cheaper per pound and easier to locate than the smaller container below

the soap paste is similar to peanut butter or axle grease as it comes out of the can, wet a patch with water and rub a bit into both surfaces to get a well greased patch that makes loading a patched ball fairly easy
http://www.colpalcommercial.com/brands.aspx?id=1730

just a bit of info, on hunting loads for larger bore hawkens


now a bit of math might be useful here , the max listed loads I commonly see posted for a 50 caliber throw a 370-410 grain bullet of several designs loaded over 100-110 grains of powder in the neighborhood of 1500-1550 fps giving you about 1850 ft lbs at the muzzle for energy
the 54 caliber steps up to about 430 grains of bullet weight and 130 grains of powder to give near 1900-2100 ft lbs of muzzle energy
the better hawken replicas in 58 caliber can use a 500-600 grain bullet over 100-130 grains of powder to give near 1400-1500fps thats close to 2700-2900ft lbs of energy

TRUST ME WHEN I SAY A 120-140 grains of powder under a 600 grain maxi ball will kill anything that walks if you can hit where you aim, it blows a golf ball size hole thru an elks chest and exits even at 200 yards, but I'd also point out the recoil on those rifles WILL GET YOUR FULL ATTENTION

[/quote]

SENECA, 36 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.350", 65 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1894 FPS - 518 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 2034 FPS - 597 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2150 FPS - 667 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (128 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1761 FPS - 882 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 1843 FPS - 965 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2001 FPS - 1138 ft.lbs

SENECA, 45 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1584 FPS - 707 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1701 FPS - 816 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1800 FPS - 914 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1904 FPS - 1022 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1980 FPS - 1106 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1369 FPS - 915 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1456 FPS - 1036 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1541 FPS - 1160 ft.lbs

HAWKEN, 45 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1605 FPS - 732 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1720 FPS - 841 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1825 FPS - 947 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1929 FPS - 1054 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 2003 FPS - 1140 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2081 FPS - 1231 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2158 FPS - 1324 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1564 FPS - 1195 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1659 FPS - 1345 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1743 FPS - 1485 ft.lbs

RENEGADE & HAWKEN, 50 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.490", 175 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1357 FPS - 761 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1434 FPS - 850 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1643 FPS - 1115 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1838 FPS - 1396 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1950 FPS - 1571 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2052 FPS - 1739 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2135 FPS - 1883 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (370 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1271 FPS - 1328 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1344 FPS - 1484 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1418 FPS - 1652 ft.lb

RENEGADE & HAWKEN, 54 CALIBER
Round ball loads (.530", 230 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 815 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1469 FPS - 1102 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1654 FPS - 1397 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1761 FPS - 1584 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1855 FPS - 1758 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1931 FPS - 1905 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1983 FPS - 2009 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (430 grains):
90 grains FFg - 1263 FPS - 1523 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1345 FPS - 1728 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 1428 FPS - 1948 ft.lbs
120 grains FFg - 1499 FPS - 2146 ft.lbs

RENEGADE, 56 CALIBER SMOOTHBORE
Round ball loads (.550", 265 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1195 FPS - 840 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1285 FPS - 972 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1300 FPS - 992 ft.lbs

Source: "Shooting Black Powder Guns," Thompson/Center Arms Company, publication designation "CR October, 1980.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_hype.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/long_range_mu ... unting.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/58_muzzleloaders.htm

 

[rbl2]

I don't hunt Elk. But I would think a mini ball would be more accurate and give more distance than a round ball.

Medical records from the war state that mini balls had a tendency to go through the body and stop at the far side just under the flesh. That may have been because the projectile spent itself in the body and upon reaching the flesh on the far side did not have the energy to exit due to the fact the skin would stretch before ripping. I dunno, I wasn't there.

 

[grumpyvette]

mini balls in 54-58 caliber usually expand to about 75-80 caliber on impact, round balls penetrate less as they usually impact at a higher speed expanding to about 90-110 caliber but with less mass they don,t penetrate as deeply, but that's not generally a huge problem because the heart/lungs are destroyed in the first 10" of travel, if the shots placed precisely,or generally from the side at about 1/3rd up from the lower chest line behind the front legs, back edge as the ELK stands

http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/Dun ... cement.pdf

http://www.chuckhawks.com/conical_bulle ... rmance.htm
READ THIS LINK

 

[rbl2]

I'd go with the mini ball but that's just me. I prefer the range and accuracy. Then again, range and accuracy are not what black powder hunting is all about. If it were, we'd all be using modern weapons only. Black powder hunting is more about the sport and skill than anything else. At least as far as I'm concerned.

I hope someone with more experience with elk jumps in here soon.

Oh, I found some lead the other day. I need to start another thread and show a picture of it.

 

[grumpyvette]

I have a replica 1861 springfield

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_in ... cts_id=893

if your having trouble with the mini- balls in many cases I see your either not using nearly pure lead with lots of lube or your charge weight is rather excessive,if the charge weights excessively large the mini-ball skirt flares like a bad-mitten birdy on exiting the muzzle and accuracy goes to hell instantly . if the bullet alloys to hard (like wheel weights)the skirt won,t expand into the shallow rifling properly. to mild a powder charge fails to expand the skirt into the rifling, its a balance that must be met

the original design, weight forward, thin skirt, mini-ball doesn,t require a really fast spin to remain stable, the more modern projectile designs with thicker skirts and far shallower base hollow designs ,do!

you should easily be able to deform the mini-ball skirt with your thumb if its pure lead, load about 60 grains of powder , then lube the crap out of the mini-ball,all over and inside the base fill with lube, Ive always gotten better accuracy with a cosmetic cotton ball firmly compressed between the powder charge and the well lubed mini,as it prevents lube from wetting the powder and it acts like a bore wipe, loads over 80 grains in a 58 cal will almost always deform a mini ball skirt, but most rifles like a 60-70 grain charge weight, and yes thats a very deadly load with the traditional mini, its both more accurate and far more deadly than a typical iron sight 30/30 carbine in skilled hands out to well over 150 yards from my experience, well yes you are limited to a single shot, but thats all you need

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/589474 ... -old-style

many guys don,t realize that the original mini ball partly stabilizes by being distinctly nose heavy / weight forward , just like a styro-foam coffee cup with a couple table spoons of sand in the bottom, if you throw it will always travel bottom forward, and wide open mouth to the rear in the arc it travels, the rifling imparts some spin increasing accuracy, but unlike the newer bullet designs the original mini does not totally depend on that spin to remain point forward, many newer designs are longer and not as nose heavy so they require spin to maintain gyroscopic stability, but if the skirt is deformed as it exits the muzzle, or the mini is not spun by the rifling, any chance of a consistent shot to shot impact point is destroyed

 

[grumpyvette]

while I see the advantages in lower recoil and slightly flatter trajectory, I,ll point out that a sub caliber pistol bullet in some ways reduces the effectiveness of the rifle,because it lighter in weight , has less mass and has a jacket, (yeah! I hear the screaming already) but before you assume Im insane try a few penetration tests , I have, and while the difference is unlikely to cost you an elk or deer, it could, and Ive found its hard to fault the results youll get IF your rifle shoots the heavier maxi balls accurately.
theres little doubt that if your hunting deer, or even elk, it makes little or no difference, even a patched round ball penetrates far enough to prove effective,if you just use heart/lung shots
but its been my experience that a maxi ball will out penetrate, and sometimes out expand a sabot pistol bullet when both are properly loaded

GOT A 54 CAL?
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_in ... ts_id=8025

if you really want to see what a maxi ball can do step up to a 58 caliber and select the 600 grain maxi,and use a long barrel hawken or similar rifle that allows you to pack a decent charge weight of propellant that allows you to push it 1200 plus fps

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categorie ... /KIT-JB-18

If your wondering how to carry loads for the rifle easily in the field,

your better quality cigar shops sell plastic slip top cigar tubes for under $2 each, I bought a couple dozen, they easily hold my standard 58 caliber loads of a well greased maxi ball a cotton cosmetic ball as a separator, in the tube and patch and a charge of propellant, you can place a second cotton ball under the cap with a couple percussion caps.
carry the tubes in a belt loop or pocket and they are highly water resistant

 

[grumpyvette]

Most of my friends and Ive used those plastic cigar tubes for carrying individually loads for our muzzle loaders for DECADES and no one I know has had problems, I think a good deal of the scare tactics , where people talk about static electricity might ignite powder, if you use plastic, were originally just related to increasing sales to a specific vendors products, but eventually got repeated enough over the years so they were taken as fact with zero proof and thought to be related to anything similar.
besides I don,t see how anyone can build up much static electricity ,90% of the time were walking in damp ground or grass , and last time I looked I was not shuffling my feet across a nylon carpet in a dry cold area so I could sneak up on a friend and zap him just before I reload my rifle, or wearing much synthetic clothing while hunting with a front loader. Id be more likely to look like this, (my coats made from a couple old olive military blankets and I wear dark green dye levis and leather boots while hunting with a front loader

obviously if the idea keeps you up nights use a brass powder horn, with a built in measure

 

[rbl2]

I have an 1841 Mississippi and an 1861 Cook & Bros., both reproduction .58's. I make my own bullets from pure lead. The lubrication I use is from the 1861 Army manual. It's a mixture of tallow, bees wax, and kerosene. I roll the cartridges exactly as it was done back in the day. I have never had a problem.

 

[grumpyvette]

twist rates on many common muzzle loaders

http://tmtpages.com/twistrate.htm

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

http://kwk.us/twist.html

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

https://thebarreloutlet.com/twist-calculator/

RIFLE MODEL CAL. TWIST RIFLE
CVA Apollo Carbelite 50/54 1:32
CVA Apollo Shadow 50/54 1:32
CVA Apollo Shadow SS 50/54 1:32
CVA Apollo Sporter 50 1:32
CVA Bobcat Rifle 50/54 1:48
CVA Bushwacker 50 1:48
CVA Colorado MusketMag 50 1:32
CVA Eclipse 209 Mag 45/50 1:28
CVA Elipse 50 1:32
CVA Firebolt 209 UltraMag 45/50 1:32
CVA Frontier Carbine 50 1:48
CVA Frontier Hunter 50 1:32
CVA Hunterbolt 209 UltrMag 45/50 1:28
CVA Mountain Hunter 50 1:48
CVA Optima Pro 209 45/50 1:28
CVA Panther Carbine 50/54 1:32
CVA Plainsman 50 1:48
CVA St. Louis Hawken 50/54 1:48
CVA Stag Horn 209 Mag 50 1:32
CVA Stalker Carbine 50/54 1:32
CVA Stalker Rifle 50 1:32
CVA Tracker Carbine 50 1:32
CVA Trophy Carbine 50/54 1:32
CVA Woodsman 50 1:48
CVA Youth Hunter 50 1:48
Traditions Buck Hunter 50 1:32
Traditions Buck Hunter 54 1:48
Traditions Buck Hunter Pro 50 1:32
Traditions Buckskinner Carbine 50 1:48
Traditions Crockett Rifle 50 1:48
Traditions Deer Hunter 50/54 1:48
Traditions E-Bolt 209 45 1:20
Traditions E-Bolt 209 45 1:20
Traditions E-Bolt 209 50 1:28
Traditions Evolution 50 1:28
Traditions Evolution 54 1:48
Traditions Evolution LD 45 1:20
Traditions Evolution LD 50 1:28
Traditions Evolution Premier 50 1:28
Traditions Hawken Mag Rifle 50 1:48
Traditions Hawken Rifle 50 1:48
Traditions Hawken Woodsman 50/54 1:48
Traditions Lighting Lightweight 50 1:28
Traditions Lightning 45 LD 45 1:20
Traditions Lightning Bolt Action 50 1:28
Traditions Lightning Bolt Action 54 1:48
Traditions Lightning Fire Sidelock 50 1:32
Traditions Magnum Plains 50 1:32
Traditions Panther Rifle 50/54 1:48
Traditions Pioneer 50 1:32
Traditions Pursuit (All Models) 50 1:28
Traditions Thunder Bolt-Action 45 1:20
Traditions Thunder Bolt-Action 50 1:28
Traditions Thunder Magnum 50 1:32
Traditions Tracker 209 45 1:20
Traditions Tracker 209 50 1:28
Knight American Knight 50 1:28
Knight Big Horn 50 1:28
Knight DISC Elite 45 1:30
Knight DISC Elite 50 1:28
Knight DISC Extreme 45 1:30
Knight DISC Extreme 50 1:28
Knight MHS DISC Extreme 45 1:30
Knight MHS DISC Extreme 50 1:28
Knight MK85 50/54 1:28
Knight Revolution 50 1:28
Knight T-Bolt 50 1:28
Knight Wolverine 50/54 1:28
Knight Wolverine 209 50 1:28
Knight Wolverine II 50/54 1:28
Lyman Cougar Rifle 50/54 1:24
Lyman Deerstalker Rifle 50/54 1:48
Lyman Great Plains Hunter 50/54 1:32
Lyman Great Plains Rifle 50/54 1:60
Lyman Trade Rifle 50/54 1:48
Ruger 77/50 Rifle 50 1:28
T/C Woods 50 1:28
T/C Big Boar 58 1:48
T/C Black Diamond 50 1:28
T/C Black Diamond XR 45/50 1:28
T/C Black Mountain Magnum 50 1:28
T/C Encore 290x45 Magnum 45 1:20
T/C Encore 290x45 Magnum 45 1:28
T/C Encore 290x50 Magnum 50 1:28
T/C Fire Storm 50 1:48
T/C G2 (.45 cal only) Contender 209x45ML 45 1:28
T/C Hawken 50/54 1:48
T/C Impact 1:28
T/C New Englander 50/54 1:48
T/C Omega 45/50 1:28
T/C Renegade 50 1:48
T/C Scout Carbine 50/54 1:20
T/C Thunderhawk 50/54 1:38
T/C White Mountain 50/54 1:20
Savage 10ML (All Models) 50 1:24
Winchester X-150 Magnum 209 45 1:28
Winchester X-150 Magnum 209 50 1:28
Remington 700 ML/MLS Rifle 45/50/54 1:28
Winchester Apex Magnum 45/50 1:28
White .451 1:20 .504 1:24


Here are the usual twist rates for most of the popular rifle calibers. (For a more comprehensive list, see the expanded "Rifle Barrel Twist List" on the Tables, Charts and Lists page.)

.17 HMR = 1 in 9"
.22 Long Rifle = 1 in 16"
.222 Remington = 1 in 14"
.223 Remington = 1 in 12" (varmint rifle)
.223 Rem./5.56mm NATO = 1 in 7" (AR-15)
.22-250 Remington = 1 in 14"
.243 Winchester = 1 in 10"
6mm Remington = 1 in 9"
.240 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.25-06 Remington = 1 in 10"
.257 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
6.5x55 Swedish Mauser = 1 in 7.5"
.260 Remington = 1 in 9"
.264 Win. Mag. = 1 in 9"
.270 Winchester = 1 in 10"
.270 WSM = 1 in 10"
.270 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
7x57 Mauser = 1 in 9"
7mm-08 Remington = 1 in 9.25"
.280 Remington = 1 in 9.25"
7mm WSM = 1 in 9.5"
7mm Rem. Mag. = 1 in 9.25"
7mm Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.30 Carbine = 1 in 16"
.30-30 Winchester = 1 in 12"
.308 Winchester = 1 in 12"
.30-06 Springfield = 1 in 10"
.300 WSM = 1 in 10"
.300 Win. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.300 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
7.62x39 Soviet = 1 in 10" (Ruger)
.303 British = 1 in 10"
.32 Win. Spec. = 1 in 16"
8x57 JS Mauser = 1 in 9.25"
.338 Win. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.340 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 10"
.357 Mag. = 1 in 16"
.35 Remington = 1 in 16"
.35 Whelen = 1 in 16"
.350 Rem. Mag. = 1 in 16"
.375 H&H Mag. = 1 in 12"
.378 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 12"
.416 Rem. Mag. = 1 in 14"
.416 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 14"
.44 Rem. Mag. = 1 in 20"
.444 Marlin = 1 in 20"
.45-70 Govt. (Marlin and Ruger rifles) = 1 in 20"
.450 Marlin = 1 in 20"
.458 Win. Mag. = 1 in 14"
.460 Wby. Mag. = 1 in 16"


Not all rifle barrels of the same caliber have the same twist rate. A fellow ordering a custom rifle may have his own ideas about twist, as may the builder. For example, some .270 Win. barrels are rifled with a 1 in 12 inches twist, some .30-06 barrels are also rifled 1 turn in 12 inches and some .300 Magnum barrels are rifled 1 turn in 14 inches.

Usually these variations make no appreciable difference. Slower twists may give slightly lower pressure, as well as very slightly better accuracy with the lighter bullets in each caliber. They will still stabilize the heavy bullets over practical hunting ranges. However, they might not be the best choice, or quite as accurate, for shooting heavy bullets at extreme range (such as 600-1000 yards).

 

[grumpyvette]

I don,t know how many guys are into building custom , old school hawken style muzzle loading rifles but here's some links to find parts and ID strongly suggest a 58 caliber with at least a 30" barrel and use of a 1" or 1&1/16" across the flats as a very good choice in a hawken rifle barrel if your into serious hunting, as it allows you to build a rifle with serious punch, obviously youll want to select a rifling twist rate matching the intended projectile youll use, if you select a slow twist rifling like a turn rate of 66:1 or 72:1 youll be restricted to use of patched round ball or short maxi or mini ball projectiles while a fast twist like 24:1, or 32:1 will generally stabilize longer projectiles

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
best in 24:1-32:1 twist

http://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-58cal-440.html

MODERATE 32:1-48:1 twist


http://kwk.us/twist.html
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

SLOWER 66:1-72:1 twist like a round patched ball

http://www.ricebarrels.com/chart.html

THE PATCHED BALL MUST BE CENTERED IN THE LUBED PATCH AND RIFLES BORE WHEN LOADING FOR CONSISTENT ACCURACY!

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/http:

http://www.colerainbarrel.com/rifled_barrels.html

http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.c ... 4=Colerain

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/

http://www.jedediah-starr.com/thumbnail.asp?cid=47

http://www.whitacresmachineshop.com/