oil pump bye-pass test issues

[Grumpy]

{quote]Carl Hinkson​

ptsSnordoe8Jgu155e21 i la5h93:u8mPac4cu2tM0nt t4 ·
The 383 I dynoed with high oil pressure using the 10552 ST oil pump was exactly what I thought was the problem. The bypass valve was to long and not exposing the complete bypass hole. I also have another engine with the same pump same problem.
I don't understand why I have to there home work for them. They told me not to take the pump apart it would void the warranty. I said really.
I have used probably 35 10552 pumps with zero problems. Now they said the 10552 ST they did change the cover HMMMMM
Here is a link to the dyno run
https://www.facebook.com/cncblocks.northeast/posts/pfbid0CWMCC5tUE7H6txU83MSpjAoU8FzbTU3S2kHjCUGtFtAoZSEQEPaEeG165yXwCig7l
[/quote]


ANY time you don't get the expected results from a part you install,
ID suggest you stop and take the time and effort to inspect and find out WHY?
Id have to point out that if your oil pump spring stacks or binds,
you should either replace it with a shorter spring, that allows more clearance, one that fits inside that oil pump slide valve or remove a few coils to gain the required clearance to allow the oil pressure bye-pass passage to fully open and be exposed to allow full oil flow, the linked picture shows the relief valve piston is not moving enough to fully open the bye-pass oil passage, IF you have that issue be sure the oil pump spring and spacers allow the full clearance, SPRING SPACERS are not generally required.
keep in mind that spring only regulates the max pressure , shortening it will have a minimal effect.
some oil pumps have an adjustable depth, threaded plug or roll pin, retaining the spring on the back end, of the oil pressure relief pistons passage, and spring passage.
its the attention to details and checking clearance etc. and time and care taken,
that makes the difference between a barely or average functional ,
and a rather exceptional engine build, yes the urge to get it running is strong,
but getting it done correctly is the goal

there are oil pump testers available commercially or if your mechanically inclined you can fabricate one with reasonable care, after a bit of measuring and purchasing a pressure gauge,
I mounted the gauge and plate I fabricated from a plate of scrap 5/8" thick aluminum plate thats 3" wide and 5" long I mount the pump to and use an air ratchet to/under the lid of a 50 cal ammo can and use that as a oil reservoir the oil pump sits in while testing
a drive shaft with a socket welded to it extends above the lid of the oil and pump tested in the 50 cal ammo can.
http://cvrproducts.com/oil-pressure-test-kit/

Testing High Volume Vs Standard Chevy Oil Pumps

after reading all the posted info , you would more than likely avoid or skip the related links, so I posted them at the beginning so you at least realize, theres much more and useful info available https://www.cpperformance.com/products/Engine_Parts/valve-spring-oiler.htm btw if you don,t want...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

how your oil pumps pressure bye-pass circuit works,

theres seems to be a lot of mis-information about , how the oil pump regulates its pressure curve, and the related subject of shimming oil pump springs and how your oil pumps pressure bye-pass circuit works. PRESSURE, that you see displayed on the oil pressure gauge is a measure of the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Oil pump priming

I have attempted to prime and pre oil the system in my 355 build using the tool shown on Grumpy's stickys but am not sure if all is as it should be. The filter was filled pre installation and the balance of the 5 quarts of oil poured into the lifter valley. The tool in inserted and run with a...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

YEAH YOU WILL OCASIONALLY SEE OIL PUMPS SHIPPED WITH SPACERS THAT SHOULD NOT BE INSTALLED

I REMEMBER RICK HAD THAT HAPPEN TO HIM!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-77070/overview/
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-7760m/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/stf-35250/overview/

the small end of the spring seats inside the slide valve the larger diam. end seats against the retaining pin in the outer pump passage, so you only cut the link/coils from the smaller diameter end of the spring

Melling 55070
70 psi, Steel, Pink, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 77070
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit
Melling 55058
Oil Pump Springs, 58 psi, Steel, Yellow, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 55078
Oil Pump Springs, 78 psi, Steel, Green, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 77060
Oil Pump Springs, 60 psi, Steel, Black, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit
Melling 55049
Oil Pump Springs, 49 psi, Steel, Green, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 77052
Oil Pump Springs, 52 psi, Steel, Purple, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit
Melling 7770M
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Chevy, Big Block, Set of 5
Melling 5556F
Oil Pump Springs, 55 psi of Force, Steel, Chevy, Small Block, Set of 5
Melling 5570F
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Chevy, Small Block, Set of 5
Melling 7760M
Oil Pump Springs, 60 psi, Steel, Black, Chevy, Big Block, Set of 5
Melling 7752M
Oil Pump Springs, 52 psi, Steel, Purple, Chevy, Big Block, Set of 5

(1)

 

[Indycars]

I remember finding these spacers inside the pressure relief piston on my new 10552 Melling pump. I called Melling, they said they don't put spacers in the relief valve. After testing I installed the pump without any spacers.



I built this tester to verify their needs.

 

[Grumpy]

thank you RICK I didn,t see your following post pop up until I finished posting

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

You guys are awesome! I've got my 10553ST sitting on my engine on the stand right now; I have a buddy on standby to help me get it installed on July 2nd, but now I feel like I need to pull the pan and the oil pump and get it checked out...

-I saw Carl's FB post but I was missing much of the context that this thread adds.

To clarify: shortening the spring reduces the maximum pressure output from the pump, vs. shortening the pin, right?


I'm unclear what the ideal solution would be, but I don't trust my ability to do ultra tiny precision work, so I'd work with my local machine shop who I really do trust after previously working with an awful machine shop that I wouldn't trust to even wash and wax my car.


Adam

 

[Grumpy]

Carl Hinkson

Unless you can spin the pump shaft 3000 RPM Or more your test is invalid, When I primed the engine I was at 58 PSI at 300 RPM

You have to compare apples to apples here !!!!

no actually you don't, simply because you can test that theory, to a large extent, yeah, you can't duplicate the total oil flow loss of an engine,
but past engine build data show the results mirror what Ive seen here. and I have tested with a milling machine, spinning the oil pump, once the oil bye-pass fully opens , your re-routing a significant percentage of the oil flow back to the intake side of the pump, and the fact is that as pressure increases the volume of oil escaping through the various bearing clearances , lifter bores etc also increases dramatically.
yeah I though the same thing, that oil flow and as a result pressure increases lineally with rpm increases, but it really doesn't .
keep in mind the oil pump spins at 1/2 engine rpm.


OIL PRESSURE read on the oil pressure gauge is a MEASURE of RESISTANCE to oil flow, you can REDUCE the pressure the gauge reads by either increasing the engine bearing clearances or REDUCING the oil viscosity (thickness) so it flows thru the clearances faster with less resistance.(OR INSTALLING A SLIGHTLY WEAKER OIL PUMP BYE_PASS SPRING, that limits the pump pressure before it allows some oil to re-circulate back through the bye-pass valve ,from the high pressure back to the low pressure side of the pump impellers, but only the max pressure you reach is limited by the bye-pass spring, in your oil pressure bye pass circuit and its that spring resistance determines the point where the bye-pass circuit, opens and limits max oil pressure, but the bye-pass circuit has zero to do with anything else, if its functioning correctly,
there are many oil leakage points(100) in a standard Chevy engine.
16 lifter to push rod points
16 push rod to rocker arm points
32 lifter bores 16 x 2 ends
10 main bearing edges
9 cam bearing edges
16 rod bearing edges
2 distributor shaft leaks
1 distributor shaft to shim above the cam gear(some engines that have an oil pressure feed distributor shaft bearing.)
once oil exits the bearings or valve train it flows mostly by gravity back to the oil pan sump, but a properly designed windage screen and crank scraper correctly clearanced allows the spinning crank/rotating assembly to act like a directional pump that drags the vast majority of the oil flow back to the sump, by design.
high oil psi at idle serves no purpose as 15psi-25psi is all thats expected in a new engine with tight clearances using a good 10W30 oil, if your using a higher viscosity than 10w30 its reducing oil flow rates and reducing heat transfer rates, Id suggest using a good 10W30 oil. and use of a 7-8 quart, baffled oil pan and windage tray

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

This newest post triggers a question that I've had for a while, but just haven't bothered to ever ask:

Is increased oil pressure a replacement for decreased oil viscosity (does it provide a safe level of wear protection)?

So if you run an engine with a pump that's putting out extra pressure and you step down in oil viscosity a step to decrease the running pressure does that provide you the same level of engine protection against wear, as running the same oil pressure but with a higher viscosity oil?

(Ex: With my bearing clearances and weather, my engine should run 10w30, if I run an increased pressure oil pump and the oil pressure ends up rising more than 10 psi per 1,000 rpm (say 15 PSI), do I have the same level of engine protection if I just drop the oil viscosity to 10w30 so that I'm back closer to 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM vs. if I pull the oil pan and oil pump and put a lower pressure spring in it and continue to run 10w30?)

-Something makes me think that it's better to run the lower pressure spring with the oil weight that's appropriate for the bearing clearance and temperatures, but I honestly just don't know....


Adam

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

Well !@$##@$. I realize now that although I was ORIGINALLY looking at the standard flow and pressure 10552ST, I ordered my oil pan and a pickup for it that was 1 5/8" instead of 1 3/4". -I then went and tried to find an equivalent Melling SharkTooth oil pump that was 1 5/8" and ordered the 10553ST, which I think has the 70# spring in it, so regardless of whether the pump has a manufacturing flaw driving high oil pressure, I get to pull the pan and pump and swap the spring over...

Glad I realized it now, but still annoyed at myself.


Adam

 

[Grumpy]

there are almost always a few exceptions, and both under and over performing oil formulation options but,
generally thinner, modern oil viscosity, matched to higher flow rates provides better cooling,
and yeah the improved modern oil formulations do generally provide better wear protection.
Id have zero hesitation dropping viscosity from lets say a 10w30 to a 5w20 in the same quality oil.
provided the engine maintains decent oil pressure at idle once it warms up.
keep in mind you can hedge your bets and run 3 quarts of 10w30 and 4 quarts of 5w20 if you want to try a marginally thinner oil viscosity
peak oil pressure over 65 psi has not shown any increase in bearing protection or increased engine durability, in any test Ive ever read
every choice you make is a compromise, you generally want to select an oil viscosity that allows the engine to operate at idle, rpm
(generally 750 rpm-900rpm) and holds a consistent 20-25 psi after the engines reached operational temps, if its 30 psi or higher at idle you generally benefit from a thinner oil, if your gauge shows 10psi-25 psi at idle and the oil temps at least 200 F your ok, if its 200F and you have less than about 10 psi ID strongly consider a thicker viscosity oil.
the old advice was,
you select an oil viscosity to provide your engine with decent oil pressure once the engines up to operational temps,
you need 10 psi for every 1000 rpm MINIMUM, with the newer oils thats still a reasonable assumption.
having a bit more at idle certainly won't hurt, but there's no benefit having oil pressure exceed 65 psi


related links

The thicker the oil the better the hydrodynamic film that is formed.

Oil Viscosity Chart: Grades, Weights & FAQs | Castrol® USA | WELCOME | CASTROL USA

What is oil viscosity, & how do weights like 5W-20 & 5W-30 impact your car? Find examples comparing oil weights including a helpful oil viscosity chart.

www.castrol.com

Oil Viscosity Comparison Chart - ISO VG, AGMA, SAE Gear, SAE Auto

Use our oil viscosity comparison chart to identify and reference thickness at different temperatures for engines and machinery for ISO VG, AGMA, SAE Auto, and SAE Gear lubricants.

petroleumservicecompany.com

bearing clearances

Understanding Today’s Bearing Clearance Recipe ■Tech Center by Engine Builder Staff - Feb 6, 2015 0 3928 Print Email What’s needed to keep the rotating assembly rotating? It’s a recipe that includes three key ingredients: the bearing, the crankshaft and the oil. But understanding the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Testing High Volume Vs Standard Chevy Oil Pumps

after reading all the posted info , you would more than likely avoid or skip the related links, so I posted them at the beginning so you at least realize, theres much more and useful info available https://www.cpperformance.com/products/Engine_Parts/valve-spring-oiler.htm btw if you don,t want...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

don,t guess on clearances and journal surface

So I decided to buy a couple of worthless old 283s to learn how to build engines. If I acquire the appropriate skills, I'm going to build a torquey 383 out of the anemic '77 350 in my C30. It tows cars, but it doesn't exactly set the road on fire, if you know what I mean. Anyway, I bought two...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

What is Oil Viscosity? | Comparative Oil Viscosity Chart

Learn more about oil thickness with our comparative oil viscosity chart. This includes finding the equivalent between ISO VG, AGMA, SAE Auto, and SAE Gear lubricants.

petroleumservicecompany.com

which oil , what viscosity

now the short answer is that almost any name brand of automotive 10w30 oil can be used in most modern auto engines,but obviously some are going to be better quality than others,THINNER VISCOSITY'S WILL TEND TO FLOW FASTER , ESPECIALLY AT LOWER TEMPS. ID strongly suggest you read thru the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

basic info on your v8 lube system

now think it thru, HERES SOME USEFUL INFO, that might help in this thread and the sub links http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/crank-case-blow-bye-and-related-info.16790/ the first thing Id be doing here, if your not getting a strong oil flow at each rocker while your turn...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

yes the oil filter you sellect does make a differance

READ THRU THESE SUB LINKS CAREFULLY theres a great deal of info here to look thru. pay attention to filter construction and the filter materials and total filter medium area, when discussing oil filters keep in mind their intended function, which is mostly too efficiently trap and remove...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Standard Oil Vs Synthetic?

Grumpy, I have already run my engine and used standard oil with Zinc additive. My question is this: I was wondering if it is unwise to change over to synthetic since the break in is already done. I drained the oil after I ran the engine for about an hour, cut the filter apart and it was clean...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/

oil system mods that help

WELL DESIGNED AND PROPERLY INSTALLED BAFFLED OIL PANS,WINDAGE TRAYS AND CRANK SCRAPERS GO A LONG WAY TO INCREASING ENGINE DURABILITY THRU BETTER MORE CONSISTENT OIL FLOW RATES yes you can (and probably should) take the time to fabricate a windage screen similar too the one shown in the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Keep Your Engine Alive: The Importance of Oil Temperature | Tuner University

What Is The Optimum Engine Oil Temperature? - Hot Rod Magazine​

For a dual-purpose car, engine oil temperature needs to be at least 220 degrees F to burn off all the deposits and accumulated water vapor. If engine sump temperatures rarely exceed 212 degrees, the water will mix with sulfur and create acids that can eventually damage bearings.
www.motortrend.com

metallic debris in filter​

Did oil an change over the weekend, Drained and the oil and nothing looked out of the ordinary then I decided to cut open the oil filter and right away saw metal shavings, The engine has about 343 miles on since rebuild but it has had numerous oil & filter changes because of issues with fuel...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

Elephant Racing • Oil Temperature and Engine Life: Why is proper temperature so important?​

Why is proper temperature so important?

www.elephantracing.com

the safe zone for oil temperature is 190-220F.
Anything lower and you risk not getting all the moisture out.
Anything consistently run higher and you're oil is going to degrade faster.

Last edited: Feb 25, 2022
Quote Reply
Select for moderation Report Edit History Delete IP

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

Wow. That's the kind of news I was hoping for, but didn't think I'd get! I have big mpg goals for my engine and the ability to drop to 5w20, is very tempting...
I've got a good cooling system and generally pretty cool Seattle summers.

Now my question is just whether to leave the stock 70# spring in the oil pump, or pull it and switch to the yellow 58# spring. (I think I'm going to keep the high pressure spring in; I've got short travel hyd lifters, but an aggressive cam lobe so 350# open pressure beehive springs on it (Pac 1219X) so I start to worry about the lifters bleeding down as I approach 6,000 RPM if I don't keep a decent amount of oil pressure refilling those lifters.)

I've got the Driven 10w30 break-in oil in it now, but after beating on it and getting the rings well broken in, (I'm trying the Quick Seat powder from Total Seal on the bores to hopefully speed up ring break-in- I was honestly really glad I tried the Quick Seat as it changed colors to green when I originally applied it, which let me know that I was NOT done cleaning the bores so I was able to keep running the nylon brushes and wiping out the bore more before reapplying the Quick Seat powder.) I was planning on switching to Penzoil Platinum 10w30 full synthetic or Castrol Edge 10w30 full synthetic after break-in. -They're both similarly priced, full synthetic ILSAC GF-6 oils and equivalents as far I'm concerned.

I've got a good set of Total Seal 1.2mm rings with spacers (gapless steel top), Napier 2nd; but a high expansion alloy piston.

I think I'll see what the oil pressure looks like on the Driven dinosaur break-in oil, and if it's at 70# or higher by 6,000, I'll switch to 5w20 for the first oil change.

My main bearing clearances were:
1. .002"
2. .002"
3. .002- .0025
4. .002"
5. (rear mains): .003"


Adam

 

[NewbVetteGuy]

Ok all: I drained my oil pan (engine is still on the stand).

-In less than an hour, I'm planning on dropping the pan and then tackling swapping to the Yellow standard pressure Melling Shark Tooth oil pump spring...

I've never done this before and I can't find any videos or even good pictures or descriptions on how to actually do this.
Can I / should I do this with the oil pump still installed, or should I unbolt the pump and do it all on the bench?

-I've got an engine hoist and a helper showing up Thursday so by next week I'll finally have my engine back in my car and this is the last thing I need to do to get ready.

Adam

 

[Grumpy]

DO IT ON THE BENCH, Ive done this dozens of times, check clearances
just remember the oil pump drive , in the block,
that goes to the distributor must be installed before the oil pump on reassembly,
and the bye-pass spring only goes in with the larger diameter end not inside the internal oil pump pressure relief piston

Shimming An Oil Pump Relief Spring

I was recently asked HOW to shim an oil pump relief spring to gain added oil pressure!:rolleyes: SHORT ANSWER NEVER SHIM THE OIL PUMP SPRING!! many pumps come with two springs , one standard and one high pressure you should NEVER shim an oil pumps pressure relief spring back in the...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Testing High Volume Vs Standard Chevy Oil Pumps

after reading all the posted info , you would more than likely avoid or skip the related links, so I posted them at the beginning so you at least realize, theres much more and useful info available https://www.cpperformance.com/products/Engine_Parts/valve-spring-oiler.htm btw if you don,t want...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

installing an oil pump pick-up tube

there's two ways ,...... you can use the correct tool, which is ADVISABLE! use this oil pump(link below) in most stock SBC builds, as it produces a 10% increase in oil volume and standard pressure which is just fine , but obviously check your bearing clearances and oil pump to oil pan floor...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

oil pump drive shaft is loose

I put in a new Melling m-55 oil pump with amoroso steel collar shaft #22070 in my 350 crate motor. With the distributor installed and fully seated, the shaft can move up and down 1/4 of an inch and this shaft doesn’t snap on to the pump as it does with the plastic sleeve.Is this normal? Thanks...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

installing an oil pump pick-up tube

there's two ways ,...... you can use the correct tool, which is ADVISABLE! use this oil pump(link below) in most stock SBC builds, as it produces a 10% increase in oil volume and standard pressure which is just fine , but obviously check your bearing clearances and oil pump to oil pan floor...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

whats a windage tray do?

"OK GRUMPYVETTE< I have dumb question? What is a windage tray and whats it for?" windage trays don,t provide a huge boost in horse power, the purpose is mostly in providing much improved oil control, thus they can, if properly designed provide a much more consistent oil supply, and enhanced...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Canton Racing Oil Pump Spring For Big Block Chevy High Pressure 50-75 PSI - 22-180

Canton Racing Oil Pump Spring For Big Block Chevy High Pressure 50-75 PSI - 22-180 A higher pressure bypass spring in an oil pump forces more oil through the engine while a lower pressure spring allows for more oil to be recycled within the pump. This sp

www.lethalperformance.com

Oil Pump Spring - JEGS High Performance

1 million+ parts, 800+ brands-all in-stock at guaranteed best prices. Buy by 11pm & your order ships same-day. Trust JEGS to get it right. Shop now!

www.jegs.com

big block chevy oil pump mods - Google Search

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-77070/overview/
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-7760m/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/stf-35250/overview/

Melling 55070
70 psi, Steel, Pink, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 77070
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit
Melling 55058
Oil Pump Springs, 58 psi, Steel, Yellow, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 55078
Oil Pump Springs, 78 psi, Steel, Green, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 77060
Oil Pump Springs, 60 psi, Steel, Black, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit
Melling 55049
Oil Pump Springs, 49 psi, Steel, Green, Pins, Chevy, Small Block, Kit
Melling 77052
Oil Pump Springs, 52 psi, Steel, Purple, Pins, Chevy, Big Block, Kit
Melling 7770M
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Chevy, Big Block, Set of 5
Melling 5556F
Oil Pump Springs, 55 psi of Force, Steel, Chevy, Small Block, Set of 5
Melling 5570F
Oil Pump Springs, 70 psi, Steel, Pink, Chevy, Small Block, Set of 5
Melling 7760M
Oil Pump Springs, 60 psi, Steel, Black, Chevy, Big Block, Set of 5
Melling 7752M
Oil Pump Springs, 52 psi, Steel, Purple, Chevy, Big Block, Set of 5