Penzoil is recommending Rotella for flat tappet lifters.
- Thread starter FishFry
- Start date
FishFry
Active Member
Well, it's the same company - Penzoil is owned by Shell since 2002.
HandOverFist
Rich
This is actually laughable that they would recommend a diesel oil for a gas engine. That alone steers me away from any recommendation they might ever make.
I DOUBT THE BEARINGS ,VALVE train, or other lubed components have any idea that they ARE BEING COOLED AND LUBRICATED,
while they are in a diesel ,
vs a gas engine, only the heat levels, ash and
fuel contamination, and pressure levels vary a bit as far as the lube specs are concerned'
obviously roller vs flat tappet valve trains will require marginally different formulations
thus the additive packages may vary, but I've used SHELL oil for decades ,
along with MARVEL MYSTERY OIL, VALVOLINE, KENDAL, and MOBILE ONE, all without lube issues,
the key seems to be in maintaining oil temps in the 190Fmin -230F max temp range,
having regular oil / filter changes at about 7K intervals, and having a 6-8 quart capacity oil pan that you check regularly.
while they are in a diesel ,
vs a gas engine, only the heat levels, ash and
fuel contamination, and pressure levels vary a bit as far as the lube specs are concerned'
obviously roller vs flat tappet valve trains will require marginally different formulations
thus the additive packages may vary, but I've used SHELL oil for decades ,
along with MARVEL MYSTERY OIL, VALVOLINE, KENDAL, and MOBILE ONE, all without lube issues,
the key seems to be in maintaining oil temps in the 190Fmin -230F max temp range,
having regular oil / filter changes at about 7K intervals, and having a 6-8 quart capacity oil pan that you check regularly.
which oil , what viscosity
now the short answer is that almost any name brand of automotive 10w30 oil can be used in most modern auto engines,but obviously some are going to be better quality than others,THINNER VISCOSITY'S WILL TEND TO FLOW FASTER , ESPECIALLY AT LOWER TEMPS. ID strongly suggest you read thru the...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
bearings and oil flow
Bearings and oil flow, some of the most important processes in engine assembly are related to getting the bearing clearances and oil flow and pressure rates set up to provide the correct oil flow rates and pressure for cooling and preventing direct surface to surface contact on the rotating...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
whats a windage tray do?
"OK GRUMPYVETTE< I have dumb question? What is a windage tray and whats it for?" windage trays don,t provide a huge boost in horse power, the purpose is mostly in providing much improved oil control, thus they can, if properly designed provide a much more consistent oil supply, and enhanced...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
oil system mods that help
heres a short list REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers ,valves etc. your most important tool, is your ability to think about how things are supposed to...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
basic info on your v8 lube system
now think it thru, HERES SOME USEFUL INFO, that might help in this thread and the sub links http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/crank-case-blow-bye-and-related-info.16790/ the first thing Id be doing here, if your not getting a strong oil flow at each rocker while your turn...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Last edited:
HandOverFist
Rich
the ideal oil for a flat tappet lifter valve train would be marginally different from a roller valve train engines requirements, but from what Ive seen most of the premium synthetic oils seem to work ok on both, now obviously adding a use specific additive might help.
HandOverFist
Rich
There is one glaring problem with that scenario. It has been proven with scientific methods that those additives (specifically ZDDP) will degrade any established oil's additive package. Even the oil manufacturers know this and is the reason they strongly state not to do so. Most of us have no clue what the outcome will be and have no means to test said concoctions. Hard to fathom why some are willing to experiment knowing these facts.
degradation of most oils ability to maintain proper lubrication, property's is degraded more rapidly by excessive heat over sustained time frames,
having a oil temp gage and having some idea as to the heat your oil is being submitted too, helps
try hard to have the oil spend most of its time in the 190F-220F range and rarely if ever exceed 240F if you want top performance.
simply adding an effective oil cooler and a 7-8 quart baffled oil pan, and doing frequent oil/filter changes tends to avoid most oil degradation problems
having a oil temp gage and having some idea as to the heat your oil is being submitted too, helps
try hard to have the oil spend most of its time in the 190F-220F range and rarely if ever exceed 240F if you want top performance.
simply adding an effective oil cooler and a 7-8 quart baffled oil pan, and doing frequent oil/filter changes tends to avoid most oil degradation problems
Choosing An Engine Oil Cooler Or Transmission Fluid Cooler
Hi there, So I'm looking for guidance regarding how to choose an engine oil cooler. I don't want to get one too small or I guess too large. I looked through the threads in part of the forum but did not find anything that popped out at me that I could use to help me. Any guidance or references...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
yes the oil filter you sellect does make a differance
READ THRU THESE SUB LINKS CAREFULLY theres a great deal of info here to look thru. pay attention to filter construction and the filter materials and total filter medium area, when discussing oil filters keep in mind their intended function, which is mostly too efficiently trap and remove...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
building a custom wet sump oil pan
The question comes up rather frequently when I suggest buying or modifying oil pans as to "WHY BOTHER?" well its simply the fact that most stock oil pans were designed simply to be the cheapest to manufacture component that would function on an engine that would rarely be spinning over 3500rpm...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Oil accumulator
an oil accumulator is basically an aux pressurized oil tank , that in most cases holds 1.5-4 quarts of oil in reserve, the engine oil pump pumps it full once the oil pressures in the engines oil passages is high enough, and feeds it back into the passages under pressure if the oil pump sucks air...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
oil system mods that help
heres a short list REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers ,valves etc. your most important tool, is your ability to think about how things are supposed to...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
bearings and oil flow
Bearings and oil flow, some of the most important processes in engine assembly are related to getting the bearing clearances and oil flow and pressure rates set up to provide the correct oil flow rates and pressure for cooling and preventing direct surface to surface contact on the rotating...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Testing High Volume Vs Standard Chevy Oil Pumps
after reading all the posted info , you would more than likely avoid or skip the related links, so I posted them at the beginning so you at least realize, theres much more and useful info available https://www.cpperformance.com/products/Engine_Parts/valve-spring-oiler.htm btw if you don,t want...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
remote oil filters
Hi fellas, Glad to be here. I have a 96 LT1 with and Eaton m112 blower and an all custom installation. For pacaking reasons My blower sits on it's side. So I can not keep the recommended amount of oil in the blower drive and still keep it just below the seal when static. I have devised a away to...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
lining up oil feed holes in bearings shells
I just got an e-mail asking what to do if you find that the blocks oil feed passage holes don,t line up exactly right with the holes in the oil feed holes in bearings shells? http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/viscosity-centistoke.15612/ paint, marker etc. tends to...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Bearing Clearances-Engine Builders Magazine
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2016/04/high-performance-engine-bearings/ http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/testing-high-volume-vs-standard-chevy-oil-pumps.15902/#post-95621
garage.grumpysperformance.com
Last edited:
FishFry
Active Member
"Those additives" is a bit broad - it's more complicated than that.
And yeah, I wouldn't add a ZDDP additive to my oil - or a product with chlorinated paraffins - for several reasons, but if you are looking for better TBN or better EP performance, there are additives with modified overbased calcium petroleum sulfonates like OilExtreme that you can use, without the fear of messing up or interfering with your original package.
Frank
HandOverFist
Rich
While the additive OilExtreme has been proven to aid "some" oils it is not always the case. One has to test and verify every oil it has been added to...there are instances where it has tested going the other way. David Vizard made a business decision many years ago to invest in that company and has likely made a profit, but it will never be mainstream because of the difficulties noted above. None of the tests with current oils nor OilExtreme's own oil line brings the protection levels up to the top tier oils current levels...not even close. Reason enough to abandon the experimenting and go with the proven top tier oils already available. One should have fear...you have no means of testing or verifying any of these alterations yourself.
HandOverFist
Rich
If any oil's film strength is enhanced or degraded by the introduction of any additive it is reasonable to assume you have upset the original oil additive package. The additive package is what gives any oil protective qualities...the base oil is nothing more than a medium.
FishFry
Active Member
I can find nothing but parise for OilExtreme in that link:
He only found that some oils with already high PSI capabilities didn't really improve with it - not exactly the "it has tested going the other way" you mentioned, and absolutely not that "those additives will degrade any established oil's additive package" as you said..
He only found that some oils with already high PSI capabilities didn't really improve with it - not exactly the "it has tested going the other way" you mentioned, and absolutely not that "those additives will degrade any established oil's additive package" as you said..
HandOverFist
Rich
"There were however, limits to its improvement potential. When the testing was complete, the conclusion was that oils with “around” 80,000 psi capability or less, "should" (which means "might") experience a SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT from using the “Oil Extreme Concentrate Additive”, in terms of improved wear protection capability. But, oils with a higher capability psi, did not see a benefit."
You will notice that I said in that same above post "specifically ZDDP"...in the case of ZDDP EVERY oil tested with those additives failed big time. There has not been one instance where it was beneficial in any way. Also note he only tested a limited number of oils using OilExtreme...results are known "only" for oils tested.
"It is always best to simply choose a highly ranked motor oil from my Wear Protection Ranking List in the first place, which will NOT need any help. Then use it just as it comes, right out of the bottle with NO aftermarket additives, and your engine will be well protected."
"
48. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM synthetic = 111,570 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 115,612 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 3.5%”.
zinc = TBD
phosphorus = TBD.
moly = TBD
calcium = TBD
TBN = TBD"
"
79. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic = 102,059 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 105,875 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 3.6%”.
zinc = TBD
phosphorus = TBD.
moly = TBD
calcium = TBD
TBN = TBD"
"
95. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Oil Extreme Motor Oil, API SM synthetic = 98,396 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 110,286 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 11%”.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD"
"
120. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Chevron Supreme, API SN conventional = 94,864 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 100,011 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 5.1%”.
zinc = TBD
phosphorus = TBD.
moly = TBD"
Odd that you glossed over these and I could go on, but back to my original point. You, the end user have no idea of the outcome when introducing another ingredient into an established oil's additive package...you also are not likely to have the means to test said concoctions.
Why go to the bother and added expense to attempt to improve any given or lesser oil when it has already been done for you...for less money? We have the tools available to make intelligent decisions about oil...let's begin using them instead of all this guess work.
Top of the heap currently...
The “WEAR PROTECTION RANKING LIST” itself, begins here:
1. 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API SP = 152,674 psi
And that psi value sets a WHOPPING NEW ALL-TIME RECORD for motor oils that I have put through my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil. It was tested in Spring 2021.
This new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” motor oil replaces the previous 5W30 Quaker State “Ultimate Durability” (abbreviated QSUD) synthetic.
zinc = 905
phos = 764
moly = 176
The psi value of this new oil, which came from testing it at the normal operating test temperature of 230*F, put it in the SPECTACULAR Wear Protection Category. However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, most hotter and thinner oils typically experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. But, even at that elevated temperature, this oil produced an extremely impressive 148,133 psi, which was only a small 3% drop in capability. And that value put this much hotter and thinner oil in the AMAZING Wear Protection Category.
I also tested this oil to find out its onset of thermal breakdown, which was 290*F.
This new oil was purchased at Walmart. And its truly amazing performance is further proof that Walmart is selling legitimate motor oil, even though their prices are extremely low compared to typical Auto Parts Stores.
Many of us who have been devoted users of the previous Quaker State “Ultimate Durability” motor oil, were concerned that Quaker State’s Corporate bean counters might get their hands on this new Quaker State “Full Synthetic” oil, and cut costs that would ruin the oil. Fortunately, as it turned out, that did not happen. And in fact, now this latest new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” motor oil, is BY FAR, the BEST PERFORMING motor oil that I have ever tested. This is absolute proof that Quaker State REALLY knows how to formulate motor oil.
This new “Full Synthetic” motor oil has set the bar so high, that it is the oil I will be using in my own vehicles from stock to High Performance, from now on. And it is the motor oil that I will recommend to my Blog readers for most water cooled, gasoline powered engines, that can use 5W30. This is especially THE “go to” motor oil for traditional flat tappet engines to provide the utmost in protection against wiped cam lobes.
Never say never, but it is hard to imagine another motor oil ever producing numbers this amazing.
Here is a back to back comparison of the new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” and the old 5W30 Quaker State “Ultimate Durability”.
NOTE: The Higher the psi value, the Better the wear protection capability. And the Higher the onset of thermal breakdown value, the Higher the oil temperature can reach before the oil begins to deteriorate due to heat.
QSFS at 230*F = 152,674 psi
QSFS at 275*F = 148,133 psi
QSFS onset of thermal breakdown = 290*F
*****
QSUD at 230*F = 133,125 psi
QSUD at 275*F = 115,764 psi
QSUD onset of thermal breakdown = 275*F
The only possible concern about this amazing new 5W30 Quaker State Full Synthetic motor oil, was that it might be “too good” for use in wet clutch motorcycles. But, motorcycle Owner feedback in July 2021, proved that this amazing new motor oil works just fine in wet clutch motorcycles, meaning there was no clutch slipping at all. Of course that applies to wet clutch motorcycles with clutches that are in good condition.
You will notice that I said in that same above post "specifically ZDDP"...in the case of ZDDP EVERY oil tested with those additives failed big time. There has not been one instance where it was beneficial in any way. Also note he only tested a limited number of oils using OilExtreme...results are known "only" for oils tested.
"It is always best to simply choose a highly ranked motor oil from my Wear Protection Ranking List in the first place, which will NOT need any help. Then use it just as it comes, right out of the bottle with NO aftermarket additives, and your engine will be well protected."
"
48. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM synthetic = 111,570 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 115,612 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 3.5%”.
zinc = TBD
phosphorus = TBD.
moly = TBD
calcium = TBD
TBN = TBD"
"
79. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic = 102,059 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 105,875 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 3.6%”.
zinc = TBD
phosphorus = TBD.
moly = TBD
calcium = TBD
TBN = TBD"
"
95. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Oil Extreme Motor Oil, API SM synthetic = 98,396 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 110,286 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 11%”.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD"
"
120. “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to 5W30 Chevron Supreme, API SN conventional = 94,864 psi
This oil on its own WITHOUT the “Oil Extreme concentrate” added to it, has a wear protection capability of 100,011 psi. But, with 2.0 OZ of concentrate added per qt, which is the amount intended for racing, its wear protection capability “WENT DOWN 5.1%”.
zinc = TBD
phosphorus = TBD.
moly = TBD"
Odd that you glossed over these and I could go on, but back to my original point. You, the end user have no idea of the outcome when introducing another ingredient into an established oil's additive package...you also are not likely to have the means to test said concoctions.
Why go to the bother and added expense to attempt to improve any given or lesser oil when it has already been done for you...for less money? We have the tools available to make intelligent decisions about oil...let's begin using them instead of all this guess work.
Top of the heap currently...
The “WEAR PROTECTION RANKING LIST” itself, begins here:
1. 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” (abbreviated QSFS), dexos 1 Gen 2, ILSAC GF-6A, API SP = 152,674 psi
And that psi value sets a WHOPPING NEW ALL-TIME RECORD for motor oils that I have put through my Engineering Torture Test on motor oil. It was tested in Spring 2021.
This new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” motor oil replaces the previous 5W30 Quaker State “Ultimate Durability” (abbreviated QSUD) synthetic.
zinc = 905
phos = 764
moly = 176
The psi value of this new oil, which came from testing it at the normal operating test temperature of 230*F, put it in the SPECTACULAR Wear Protection Category. However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, most hotter and thinner oils typically experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. But, even at that elevated temperature, this oil produced an extremely impressive 148,133 psi, which was only a small 3% drop in capability. And that value put this much hotter and thinner oil in the AMAZING Wear Protection Category.
I also tested this oil to find out its onset of thermal breakdown, which was 290*F.
This new oil was purchased at Walmart. And its truly amazing performance is further proof that Walmart is selling legitimate motor oil, even though their prices are extremely low compared to typical Auto Parts Stores.
Many of us who have been devoted users of the previous Quaker State “Ultimate Durability” motor oil, were concerned that Quaker State’s Corporate bean counters might get their hands on this new Quaker State “Full Synthetic” oil, and cut costs that would ruin the oil. Fortunately, as it turned out, that did not happen. And in fact, now this latest new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” motor oil, is BY FAR, the BEST PERFORMING motor oil that I have ever tested. This is absolute proof that Quaker State REALLY knows how to formulate motor oil.
This new “Full Synthetic” motor oil has set the bar so high, that it is the oil I will be using in my own vehicles from stock to High Performance, from now on. And it is the motor oil that I will recommend to my Blog readers for most water cooled, gasoline powered engines, that can use 5W30. This is especially THE “go to” motor oil for traditional flat tappet engines to provide the utmost in protection against wiped cam lobes.
Never say never, but it is hard to imagine another motor oil ever producing numbers this amazing.
Here is a back to back comparison of the new 5W30 Quaker State “Full Synthetic” and the old 5W30 Quaker State “Ultimate Durability”.
NOTE: The Higher the psi value, the Better the wear protection capability. And the Higher the onset of thermal breakdown value, the Higher the oil temperature can reach before the oil begins to deteriorate due to heat.
QSFS at 230*F = 152,674 psi
QSFS at 275*F = 148,133 psi
QSFS onset of thermal breakdown = 290*F
*****
QSUD at 230*F = 133,125 psi
QSUD at 275*F = 115,764 psi
QSUD onset of thermal breakdown = 275*F
The only possible concern about this amazing new 5W30 Quaker State Full Synthetic motor oil, was that it might be “too good” for use in wet clutch motorcycles. But, motorcycle Owner feedback in July 2021, proved that this amazing new motor oil works just fine in wet clutch motorcycles, meaning there was no clutch slipping at all. Of course that applies to wet clutch motorcycles with clutches that are in good condition.
Last edited:
HandOverFist
Rich
I can't comment on this without knowing the meaning/definition of "EP" and "TPN".
HandOverFist
Rich
I suspected it was terminology used by tribologist's/oil sample sites. Do understand the psi ratings of oil film strength have nothing in common with psi readings/loads measured in mechanical parts. The psi ratings of oil only compare to test methodology of different oil's abilities/film strength. What loads any mechanical parts see would be difficult for one to measure at any given moment or circumstance. Why not choose a oil for it's superior film strength capabilities and pocket the surplus (whatever that percentage might be) for those moments when it may be called upon?