Reasonably Decent Bear Protection In A Handgun

while its a personal preference, and we all have a LIMIT OR TOLERANCE TO HOW LARGE AND HEAVY AND UNWIELDY A "HANDGUN" CAN BE, how much recoil and muzzle blast we can tolerate and how rapidly we can get off repeated shots accurately.
there are certainly many current "HANDGUNS" that are borderline, or obviously over sized, heavy to large and absurdly large!
if its to difficult to carry easily its almost certain you'll eventually leave it rather than carry it, especially if its a back-up to a rifle

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now personally I find anything larger and heavier than the 7.5" barrel x frame SMITH AND WESSON 500 MAG,
to have exceeded that size and weight level, that's easily carried in a shoulder holster or chest holster rig.
my 445 dan wesson super mag has a longer 10" barrel but its a marginally smaller frame and lighter weight,
my N frame 10" S&W 44 mag is much easier to carry in a convenient shoulder holster.
(most people feel all those revolvers are to large for daily carry)(even when hunting)
and in my case I freely admit a 7.5"-8.375" barrel makes the revolver far easier to handle and carry.
I've handled and shot the ruger single action 480 revolvers, with a 6.5" barrel and find those rather easy to carry in a shoulder holster, but anything larger or heavier is a P.I.T.A. in my opinion to carry in a shoulder or chest holster and once you exceed about 6" in barrel length a belt holster rather rapidly becomes difficult to access with a back-pack or while seated in many cases.(besides yes its again just my opinion, )
those long cylinder rifle cartridge chambered handguns / single actions ( look like they belong in a cartoon) any cartridge longer than the 460 S&W requires a cylinder length that looks ODD in a handgun in my opinion
keep in mind you'll be carrying any handgun while hunting either in your hand or holstered and rapid easy access under all conditions is mandatory in a firearm you must depend on for defensive use.
yes I'm very well aware that some handguns like the 10" and longer barrel 460 S&W and 500 mag can be fitted with what is really a rifle sling, but at that size and weight your much better equipped if you carry a carbine of some type in my opinion, my sako 375 H&H or my BROWNING BLR in 450 marlin instantly comes to mind.
yes its personal preference but those long 10" or even a 7" barrel on those BFR single actions leave me cold!
now there's nothing walking in NORTH AMERICA a good shot with a 480 ruger 454 casull or similar 460-500 S&W revolver thats properly loaded and in skilled hands can't be easily killed with good shot placement.(in fact all of the large bears, elk, moose have all be repeatedly killed with 44 mag revolvers (yes marginal in some cases, but undeniable, that its been done repeatedly with heavy hard cast bullets, )
as they are effective at breaking, and penetrating large bone, like shoulders, spines and skulles and still reaching and lethally destroying the vitals organs, behind the mass of bone and hide and muscle!
 
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Grumpy

Thread 'custom sheath or holster for your handgun or blade'






nothing you carry in a holster will look to be nearly big and as powerful, as you require,
if your forced to fight for your life but there are much better than average options

that's why most guides , who take the threat seriously ,carry a 12 ga with slugs or a rifle NOT A HANDGUN
keep in mind that realistically your chances of being attacked by any animal in the wild is rather low,
but it's certainly not something that can reasonably be totally be ignored
while you might go decades without issues it's just a fact it happens to someone someplace on a regular basis
and there's dozens-to maybe hundreds of SERIOUS LIFE THREATENING emergency room visits and a few deaths every year,
even if just limited to north AMERICA
en.wikipedia.org

List of fatal bear attacks in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

List of fatal cougar attacks in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
blog.batchgeo.com

Wolf Attack Statistics of North America - BatchGeo Blog

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look at the limited time frame and distance in these charges,
between the time you first see the bear and when it would easily reach you, if it had not backed off!
could you draw and accurately fire a handgun in that brief time?
ID bet the answer in most cases is NOT A CHANCE if your telling the truth!
the bear sees the hunter and shotgun and seems to sense its in some danger and backs off,
I doubt that would be the case, in the bears mind if the hunter held any handgun!
 
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while I consider a quality semi auto handgun in 10mm, or 45 acp a very good self defense option when its a potential human aggressor
I consider the advantages of a properly loaded with heavy hard cast bullets in a magnum revolver in 44 mag, 445 DWSM, 480 ruger or 460 or 500 S&W to be FAR better than any semi auto if your trying to prevent an attack at short ranges by aggressive bears!
if my primary goal was hunting bears...
personally I'd prefer a rifle chambered in, 45/70, 450 marlin, 458 WIN , or 375 H&H
or a 12 or 10 ga semi auto shotgun as a primary defensive & hunting tool option,
every choice will be a compromise in several areas,
personally I want a weapon that can reach the vitals from almost any angle
there's no comparing the results you get with a shotgun slug or heavy caliber rifle.
I've shot enough large hogs with a 45 acp and 10mm pistol to recognize the obvious,
lack of power that the same size hogs shot with those handguns, 10mm & 45acp
show compared to the noticeably better results I see with my magnum revolvers.

you calculate projectile energy with the following formula

projectile mass in grains X velocity X velocity divided by 450240= energy

run any of your options through the formula to see the potential differences
your better 10mm and hot 45acp options rarely approach 700 ft lbs
most of the larger magnum handguns can easily exceed 1400-2000 ft lbs
most shotguns and rifles can easily exceed 2500-4500 ft lbs
 
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doing penetration testing on stacked layers of scrap plywood
the 10 mm is not nearly as impressive as the bigger bore revolvers with hard cast bullets
(yeah proves nothing except that deeper penetration in a similar medium proves ,
if a cartridge penetrates deeper,
it's more likely to reach the vitals from odd angles or vitals located behind bone)
I've found the hard cast lee 310 grain 44 caliber in my 445 DWSM (30 grains of h110)
and the lee 440 grain 500 S&W (22 grains of blue dot)
are the winners to getting max penetration.
now the 10mm and 357 mag both if properly loaded do penetrate deeply and ,
most likely deep enough to get the job done, but certainly not in the same class as the big bore revolvers,
or something like a 340 wby or 375 H&H or 450 marlin.
now admittedly its a personal option/choice
but I'd rather trust a 5-6 shot capacity mag revolver , as a back-up defense, than a 12-16 shot semi auto, for several reasons.
(and Id rather have my browning 450 marlin blr, or my sako 375 H&H if confronted at close range by an angry bear than a handgun.
I don't own a 460 S&W, or a 480 ruger,
but I'm certain with proper loads those would also work well!.
 
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calculate your bullet sectional density
larger diameter in this case (44-50 caliber handguns)with weights that allow a .24 or greater sectional density
as it has a huge effect on the potential penetration,
with hard cast bullet designs you get approximately similar penetration with most bullets,
fired at similar velocity that have similar sectional density, while a heavier bullet mass tends to help,
penetration, its the combo of mass, cross sectional area and impact velocity, if the bullet alloy is the same.
example
a 310 grain 44 caliber LEE, cast bullet fired from my 10" S&W revolver an easily be pushed to about 1400 fps
that bullets .431 in diameter SD .23838 energy = 1349 ft lbs

a 440 grain 50 caliber LEE, cast bullet fired from my 7.5" S&W revolver an easily be pushed to about 1400 fps
that bullets .501 in diameter SD .25042 energy = 1915 ft lbs

thus both revolvers so loaded have remarkably similar penetration, yet the energy on impact is distinctly different

energy is calculated a bullet weight in grains times velocity squared , divided by 450240=energy

Sectional Density (SD) is calculated by dividing a bullet's weight in grains by 7000 and then dividing that number by the bullet's diameter squared, essentially representing the mass packed behind a bullet's cross-sectional area.
either handgun so loaded has more than enough punch to be lethal,and punch completely through a bear skull or shoulder to the vitals,
provided the shot placements correct and the shooter knows bear anatomy...
your very unlikely to have time for more than one or two shots in a direct attack so make them count!
spray and PRAY rarely works
 
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yeah, I don't see a large magazine capacity in a hand gun, doing you ANY GOOD ,
unless the first 2-3 shots are REALLY effective!
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Louise and clark were among the first to see what a pissed off grizzly could do!
 most early mountain men used 45-50 caliber rifles
latter mountain men used and PREFERED 50-to-62 caliber rifles
and remember lead and powder were expensive, running out might be lethal.
so the NEED for much better lethality must have been CRITICAL
as you'll get only about 1/2 as many 58-62 caliber lead balls per lb ,
or shots per lb of powder,
as you will from using a 45-50 caliber muzzle loader

grumpyvette

Thread 'you approach muzzle loading a bit differently'

if your used to using a 7mm rem mag pushing 3000fps, and having a second shot by simply working a bolt action. the swap to the muzzle loader a bit of a change!
one of my buddies just got his first muzzle loader, a 50 cal, he bought used
he had zero idea on how to load it or shoot it and clean it, so I spent several hours showing him, he was amazed and disappointed to find that the rifle shot 6" groups at 100 yards with the suggested loads ,I suggested dropping back 10 grains on the powder charge from the 90 grains ,the book suggested as max, to 80 grains, which resulted in 3" groups but...
btw, I find a 95% wheel weights plus 5% pure tin by weight, as a prefered casting bullet alloy,
provides for deep penteration and slow but consistent expansion at near those velocity levels.

Bullet Design Details | Accurate Molds

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Bullet Design Details | Accurate Molds

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Bullet Design Details | Accurate Molds

accuratemolds.com accuratemolds.com

Bullet Design Details | Accurate Molds

accuratemolds.com accuratemolds.com
 
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the secret here is you need to make that first shot very rapidly, reasonably consistent, and
having it accurately placed, with a knowledge of game anatomy,
even when your under extreme stress, and it must be lethal, random shot placement rarely works.
keep in mind,it's extremely doubtful if you'll have the time to get off more than two shots,
so you are forced to make that first shot count!
as with most, physical motor skills, if your to become proficient and fast,
frequent and consistent practice will be mandatory!
think long and carefully about where, and how you'll wear the holster ,
your decision, and practiced skill, or lack of skill, could cost you your life

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R

Thread '.44 mag'

grumpy whats the difference between .44 magnum & .44 special also I was looking at a .357 kit for my glock model 27 to have 2 guns in one but understand it is a different round than my S&W .357 mag?

Grumpy

Thread 'a few guys opinions on the S&W 500 mag'






I have to point out that if you HANDLOAD you can easily taylor the loads to any power level you select.
(and at the cost of factory ammo I can't imagine owning and shooting a 500 mag without handloading)
if you cast your own bullets and handload your options are much further increased, and ammo prices are much reduced
and like with most skills extensive and consistently repeated practice,
can easily result in very impressive skill levels being...

Grumpy

Thread 'what rifle or other weapon would you prefer to carry in remote bear county?'

now this assumes you're NOT hunting, just taking a several days on a 4-6 day long backcountry backpacking trip,
(something I've done dozens of times)
into some remote areas, in colorado, idaho, northern california, even the fla glades, that are well known to have predators like bears or maybe fla, panthers, maybe even mountain lions in rare cases.
if your like most guys you'll pack a handgun, under the idea it takes up less space and weights less,
and probable not take any rifle figuring the risk is low, and a rifles heavy and unlikely to be used.
that's a bit like you not buying...

Gibbles

Thread '1/2in holes!'

I always heard anything worth putting a hole into, is worth putting a big hole in!

Local gun store had this XIX brushed chrome Desert Eagle in .50AE for a price i could not pass up.

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grumpyvette

Thread '445 dan wesson revolvers'

YOULL NEED TO SHOOT A GREAT DEAL TO GET THE NECESSARY PRACTICE,
its that frequent practice and hand loading that significantly reduces ammo cost,
THAT MAKES THE 445 REALLY EFFECTIVE IN YOUR HANDS,
CASTING YOUR OWN BULLETS SIZED EXACTLY TO THE THROAT/BORE SIZE HELPS,
AS DOES THE COST SAVINGS CASTING YOUR OWN BULLETS SAVES YOU.

keep in mind, accurate shot placement, a knowledge of your opponents anatomy,
or the games anatomy, and proper bullet selection are critical to getting good results
the heavier cast bullet's will generally exit game leaving a clear blood trail

new brass is...
 
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one more reason , in an endless list,
to never go out hiking in the rural landscape, without a serious side arm.
 
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https://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/44-mag-reload-info.3409/
grumpyvette

Thread '445 dan wesson revolvers'

YOULL NEED TO SHOOT A GREAT DEAL TO GET THE NECESSARY PRACTICE,
its that frequent practice and hand loading that significantly reduces ammo cost,
THAT MAKES THE 445 REALLY EFFECTIVE IN YOUR HANDS,
CASTING YOUR OWN BULLETS SIZED EXACTLY TO THE THROAT/BORE SIZE HELPS,
AS DOES THE COST SAVINGS CASTING YOUR OWN BULLETS SAVES YOU.

keep in mind, accurate shot placement, a knowledge of your opponents anatomy,
or the games anatomy, and proper bullet selection are critical to getting good results
the heavier cast bullet's will generally exit game leaving a clear blood trail

new brass is...
 
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the 45acp plus p, and 10mm are pathetically underpowered,
compared to the magnum revolvers tested below,
that's not saying they won't work under ideal conditions
but the big magnum revolvers have 2-3 times the energy and penetration potential

both the 460 and 500 mag revolvers
,so loaded have remarkably similar penetration,
yet the energy on impact is distinctly different
he used jacketed hollow point bullets,
if hard cast gas check bullets were used,
penetration would be noticeably deeper,
and velocity would be marginally higher
and pressures with similar powder charges
would be marginally LOWER

energy is calculated a bullet weight in grains times velocity squared , divided by 450240=energy

Sectional Density (SD) is calculated by dividing a bullet's weight in grains by 7000 and then dividing that number by the bullet's diameter squared, essentially representing the mass packed behind a bullet's cross-sectional area.


leeprecision.com

44 Special / 44 Magnum / 44/40 Molds

44 Special / 44 Magnum / 44/40 Molds
leeprecision.com leeprecision.com
a 44 mag can easily throw a 310 grain, approximately a .240 SD hard cast bullet at 1250 fps= 1076 ft lbs

leeprecision.com

454 Casull / 45 Colt Molds

45 Colt / 454 Casull Molds
leeprecision.com leeprecision.com
the 460 in the video was a 300 grain, approximately a .208 SD , 1472 fps=1443 ft lbs

leeprecision.com

500 S&W Mold

500 S&W Molds
leeprecision.com leeprecision.com
the 500 in the video was a 350 grain, approximately a .200 SD 1618 fps=2035 ft lbs

leeprecision.com

500 S&W Mold

500 S&W Molds
leeprecision.com leeprecision.com
weights 470 with gas check
the 500 mag should be using a 470 grain , approximately a .268 SD at about 1450 fps, =2195 ft lbs
would easily penetrate much more than 2 gel blocks
 
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most people, even those who spend a considerable amount of time in the outdoor environment,
will never be faced with a charging, bear or similar threat from wild life (perhaps a moose, or cougar,)
but prudence requires a smart person to carry a handgun , a cigarette lighter, poncho, a cell phone and a knife.
there's always a compromise to be made between raw power,in ft lbs of energy,
ease of comfortable carry, potential speed of use, the handguns effect on the intended target,
speed of rapid repeated use and of course cost , and easy availability of finding the ammo.
just as a point of interest, you must consider that the skill of the person using the firearm,
his experience and his ability to accurately and repeatedly place his shots, and his knowledge,
of the games anatomy all matter as does the ammo selected, and the firearm used, itself.
from a purely physics standpoint something as small in caliber and of moderate power ,
such as a 357 mag revolver has , on many occasions proved very lethal on an aggressive bear!
in fact one of the larger brown bears ever taken, was killed with a 22lr rifle, but it's certainly not ,
a recommended defensive side arm. with proper hard cast bullets a 357 mag of a 10mm semi auto,
do physically have the power to prove lethal, if shot placements close to ideal.
the problem is that the very limited time frame and the ability of most people under extreme stress,
are not prone to make repeated accurate shots. thus having a significant edge in power ,
that allows you to punch through and break bones and punch through a significant mass of hide muscle and bone,
from less than ideal angles under far less than ideal conditions almost mandates you carry a magnum handgun,
your both skilled in using and one that has at least a 41mag-44mag power level at a minimum.
once you exceed that power level your compromise is trading deeper penetration and increased power delivered,
on target, for a minor, or perhaps major reduction, in speed of repeated fire, and ease of use, and maybe accuracy,
most people don't spend enough time in practice to be effective, and consistently accurate with the bigger magnum handguns.

Grumpy

Thread 'I was asked why I don't own a ruger 480 handgun?'

I was asked why I don't own a ruger 480 handgun?
there's always a balance to be found between how much recoil and muzzle blast you easily handle and your ability to hit a target easily, and consistently at ranges where your likely to use the handgun, for hunting it's been my experience that you should limit shots you make with a handgun to the the range where you can place all shots in a 5"-6" circle CONSISTENTLY!
obviously the more you practice the longer that range may potentially get! and since handloading may reduce ammo cost by 79%-80% it pays to cast and handload...

grumpyvette

Thread '445 dan wesson revolvers'

YOULL NEED TO SHOOT A GREAT DEAL TO GET THE NECESSARY PRACTICE,
its that frequent practice and hand loading that significantly reduces ammo cost,
THAT MAKES THE 445 REALLY EFFECTIVE IN YOUR HANDS,
CASTING YOUR OWN BULLETS SIZED EXACTLY TO THE THROAT/BORE SIZE HELPS,
AS DOES THE COST SAVINGS CASTING YOUR OWN BULLETS SAVES YOU.

keep in mind, accurate shot placement, a knowledge of your opponents anatomy,
or the games anatomy, and proper bullet selection are critical to getting good results
the heavier cast bullet's will generally exit game leaving a clear blood trail

new brass is...

Grumpy

Thread 'I was asked why I don't own a ruger 480 handgun?'

I was asked why I don't own a ruger 480 handgun?
there's always a balance to be found between how much recoil and muzzle blast you easily handle and your ability to hit a target easily, and consistently at ranges where your likely to use the handgun, for hunting it's been my experience that you should limit shots you make with a handgun to the the range where you can place all shots in a 5"-6" circle CONSISTENTLY!
obviously the more you practice the longer that range may potentially get! and since handloading may reduce ammo cost by 79%-80% it pays to cast and handload...

Grumpy

Thread 'a few guys opinions on the S&W 500 mag'






I have to point out that if you HANDLOAD you can easily taylor the loads to any power level you select.
(and at the cost of factory ammo I can't imagine owning and shooting a 500 mag without handloading)
if you cast your own bullets and handload your options are much further increased, and ammo prices are much reduced
and like with most skills extensive and consistently repeated practice,
can easily result in very impressive skill levels being...

R

Thread '.44 mag'

grumpy whats the difference between .44 magnum & .44 special also I was looking at a .357 kit for my glock model 27 to have 2 guns in one but understand it is a different round than my S&W .357 mag?
 
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if this poor guy had the common sense to have a shoulder holster and a magnum revolver,
under that parka,

because he had to be aware he is in bear country,
he would have had a chance of not becoming snack food!
a 44 mag, 480 ruger, a 454 casull or 460 or 500 S&W would change the dynamics of the confrontation.
just like having a bumper jack and spare tire... you may not need it for decades,
but every driver has to be aware you will eventually get a flat tire!
not having the tools to fix the situation just proves your totally un-prepared for reality,
a situation that your 100% sure will eventually happen, if you spend considerable time under the circumstances.
yeah I know the more liberal crowds horrified at the idea, that might be a reason for anyone to be carrying a concealed handgun,
especially a dreaded "MAGNUM ", in a concealed holster, makes them want to vomit,
maybe that is just natures way of insuring insanity, or those weak in self preservation skills have a lower chance of reproducing.
 
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rather interesting video, showing how difficult it can be to stop an attacking bear,
not a handgun but still interesting story
I don't like videos like this as they obviously got many of the facts wrong,
the picture shows archery equipment then, a lever action,then shows a bolt action,
he used a bolt action,according to the narrative
they named a caliber that does not exist, (365 winchester) etc.
(maybe they meant a 356 winchester or 375 winchester
(neither cartridge is available in an off the shelf remington bolt action)
or maybe they meant a 375 H&H in the remington bolt action...
(I own one it's a very effective choice in skilled hands)
which makes sense but would indicate very bad shot placement
as 5-7 shots would not be required with decent shot placement,
I sight all my large game rifles in to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards

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grumpyvette

Thread 'printable targets and sighting in'

http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf.html

http://www.targetz.com/targets01.htm

http://mytargets.com/

http://www.ruggedbuddy.com/Rugged-Buddy-Sawhorse.html

http://www.targetprinter.com/

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=2370

http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10064.pdf

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Don't fall for the B.S. that you don't need to practice constantly
it takes extensive repeated...

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Nosler Premium 375 H&H Mag Brass Box of 25

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if you own one (375 H&H)get several reloading manuals, and read carefully
this is an excellent big game cartridge option if properly loaded

grumpyvette

Thread 'new reloading manuals'

I've got reloading manuals that date back to the late 1960s, all the way up to the newer ones,
the older ones have far less detailed info and they may have older cartridges and powders listed new manuals don't
,but there's a bunch of newer cartridges not listed in older manuals,
and there's a bunch of new powders available and older discontinued powders in the older manuals.
its always a good idea to cross check several manuals load data, they should all be fairly close..
within a grain or so on the max loads, if ones not it may be a miss-print
and yes rare but I've...
 
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