valve springs loads and installed height

[grumpyvette]

Soon I'll be doing a mostly stock rebuild of the original 327/300 from my '65 Impala, using a mild (216/228 @ .050" dur., .454"/.480" lift) hydraulic Crane cam. I've been advised that Crane springs tend to be too strong for street use and will probably wear the cam prematurely. Is this true, and if so what would be a good choice in quality springs for this engine? This will be basically a street cruiser, w/ power peak of about 5500 rpm. Thanks!

ASSUMING ALL VALVE SPRINGS FROM ANY SOURCE are too strong, too weak or anything else is absurd ! keep in mind the LAST THING any manufacture wants is customers having problems with their products , so they go to great lengths to insure durability and trouble free operation, thus they try to suggest the best possible matching components.
most suppliers have dozens if not hundreds of different valve springs to choose from and most valve spring load rates change to some degree depending on the installed height and cam lift used.
from your limited description of the cam I think your referring to this cam I'll link too, as you can see it listed the proper springs , as PART # 99848 and installed height at 1.70 inches and load rate is certainly not excessively high as listed at 114 lb seat and 318lb open btw Ive run that cam and the slightly milder crane 114132 in my corvettes 383 in the past and I think youll find the slightly milder crane cam #114132 a better match
(especially if you use 1.6:1 ratio rockers as it has better low and mid rpm torque and gives up very little peak power)
in your particular application so I'll post a link at the bottom
THE CRANE HYDRAULIC FLAT TAPPET CAM THAT I THINK YOU ARE REFERRING TOO

AND TAKE THE TIME TOO
,read this link
http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ215_18-38.pdf

OBVIOUSLY YOULL WANT THE CORRECT VALVE SPRINGS

the reduced diameter of beehive valve springs usually eliminates the rocker too retainer clearance issue

BEEHIVE SPRINGS GIVE A GOOD DEAL MORE ROCKER TO RETAINER CLEARANCE
https://goodson.com/collections/cylinder-head-rebuilding-tools
http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/kl8540.html

http://www.kmotion.biz/instht.htm
http://www.competitionproducts.com/1500-1585-OD-Valve-Springs/products/2631/1/0

https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/valve-springs

https://www.iskycams.com/cart/valve-springs-c-99.html

http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/file/334-343.pdf

https://www.racingsprings.com/Valve-Spring/Store/13

http://www.lunatipower.com/Category.aspx?id=23

http://www.pspring.com/products/engine-valve-springs/

http://www.competitionproducts.com/Valve-Springs/departments/49/

http://psisprings.com/products/

http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Valve Springs By Usage'-0.aspx

http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive-Valve-Springs

https://www.supertechperformance.com/valve-springs-p109

http://www.cvproducts.com/index.php/psi-springs/

http://www.crower.com/media/pdf/2008b/153-155.pdf

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetrain/HowToVerifyValvetrainGeometry.aspx
keep in mind all roller rockers do not have identical dimensions, crower offers .050 off set trunion designs ans the designs dimensions do differ slightly between manufacturers

it only takes a few seconds running a new engine for an improperly installed cam , lifters and valve train, during the break-in process to generate teaspoons of metallic trash that ,once in the engine oil flow ,rapidly destroys bearings if the clearances ,spring load rates or valve train geometry is wrong
even roller cams can wipe out lobes if the valve train components, are not matched correctly, or the spring load rates are not correct, or valve train lubrication, geometry is not set up correctly

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d-high-spring-pressures-don-t-work-well.1489/

CRANE, ISKY,ERSON, CROWER, or most any other cam manufacturer will supply you with the correct MATCHING valve springs and the IDEAL height installed specs, if you ask and pay for them
The following recommendations are from Erson Cams. If you have questions, you can reach their tech department at 800-641-7920.
ALL MAJOR CAM MANUFACTURERS TECH DEPARTMENTS WILL SUPPLY THIS INFO IF ASKED

Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft: 110 lbs Seat pressure/250-280 lbs open pressure

Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft: 130 lbs Seat Pressure/300-325 lbs open pressure

Hydraulic Roller Camshaft: 130-140 lbs Seat Pressure/300- 355 lbs open pressure

Solid Roller Camshaft: (Minimum Safe Pressures DEPEND ON SEVERAL FACTORS)

Up to .600 valve lift: 200-235 lbs Seat Pressure/600 lbs open pressure

Over .600 valve lift: 250-280 lbs Seat pressure /100 lbs pressure for every .100 of valve lift
theres also direct sources

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...d-length-checkers?autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5
Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66789 SBC 3/8" rocker studs

Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66790 SBC 7/16" rocker studs

Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66806 BBC 7/16" rocker studs

heres a bit of useful related push rod length info (POSTED HERE) youll want to select the correct set or SETS for your shop

Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Intake 3/8" / .080" 8.275"
295-7941-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Exhaust 3/8" / .080" 9.250"
295-7969-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Big Block +.100" Long Intake 3/8" / .080" 8.375"
295-7979-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Big Block +.100" Long Exhaust 3/8" / .080" 9.350"
295-7951-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Tall Deck Intake 3/8" / .080" 8.675"
295-7961-8 Big Block Chevy, Standard Length Big Block Tall Deck Exhaust 3/8" / .080" 9.650"
295-7800 V8 396-454 Retro Fit Pushrod Set, Intake & Exhaust, 1965-Present
3/8" / .080"
3/8" / .080" 7.725 Int.
8.675 Exh
295-7913-16 Small Block Chevy, Standard Length Small Block Chevy 3/8" / .080" 7.800"
295-7984-16 Small Block Chevy, +.100" Long 3/8" / .080" 7.900"
295-7934-16 Big Block Ford, Standard Length Ford `72-'78 429-460 3/8" / .080" 8.550"
295-7951-16 Big Block Ford, Standard Length Ford `69-'71 429-460 3/8" / .080" 8.675"
295-7582-16 Oldsmobile, Std Length 455 5/16" 9.550"


http://www.psisprings.com/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=34

http://www.ferrea.com/Valve-Springs/c7535

http://www.racingsprings.com/

http://www.racingsprings.com/Valve-Springs/Store/13

http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_list ... catagory=4

http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-%27 ... %27-0.aspx

https://www.lunatipower.com/Category.aspx?id=23

RELATED INFO YOU SHOULD READ THRU



http://www.kmotion.biz/instht.htm

]THE CRANE HYDRAULIC FLAT TAPPET CAM THAT I THINK IS A MUCH BETTER MATCH TOO THE APPLICATION GIVEN THE LIMITED INFO AVAILABLE
Id also point out that youll want to lubricate any valve you install in a valve guide and verify the valve train clearances very carefully, and use the correct valve springs and add the correct valve seals installed

 

[philly]

taken from here http://www.compcams.com/Pages/415/truth ... rings.aspx

but incase the link dies ill copy paste

The Truth About Valve Springs

Valve springs are one of the most critical and most overlooked components in your engine. Proper selection of the valve spring begins with identifying the application and selecting all of the valve train components to achieve the engine builders’ goals.

The spring is selected to complement the system and must be matched with the entire valve train in order for the engine to reach its full potential. It does absolutely no good to install a cam that will rpm to 8000 if you do not have the correct springs. Improper selection of the wrong valve spring is one of the most common causes of engine failure. Other common causes are the incorrect installation and improper handling of the valve springs.

Selecting a Spring

1. Use only the valve springs that will give the correct spring pressure with the valve both on the seat and at maximum lift.

2. The outside diameter of the recommended valve spring may require that the spring pocket of the head be machined to a bigger size.

3. One of the easiest and sometimes most costly mistakes made in racing engines is not positively locating the spring. A valve spring that “dances” around on the cylinder head or retainer causes harmful harmonics and excessive wear. A spring that is forced onto a retainer is likely to fail at that coil. That is why we have such a large selection of steel and titanium retainers, hardened steel spring seat cups and I.D. locators to better match our springs. A spring that is contained properly at the retainer and the cylinder head will offer the longest possible service life.
Proper Spring Handling
1. Handle springs with care. Never place in a vise, grab with pliers or hit them with a hammer. This will damage the surface of the spring, which will cause a spring to fail.

2. When separating double or triple springs, use only a durable plastic object that cannot harm the shot-peened surface of the spring. Never use a tool or hard metal object like a screwdriver.


3. Valve springs are shipped with a rust preventative coating that should remain on the spring throughout engine assembly. Do not clean springs with acidic or evaporative cleaners. This causes rapid drying and promotes the formation of rust on the surface, which can cause catastrophic failures. Even a slight amount of corrosion can grow to be a problem.

4. When installing springs, use COMP Cams® Valve Train Assembly Spray (Part #106) to ease assembly and improve the life of the spring.
Checking Loads
1. COMP Cams® has matched each set of springs for load consistency. A variance of + or -10% is acceptable for new springs.

2. When checking the spring loads on a load tester (Part #5313) measure and note the thickness of the retainer where the outer spring sits. Assemble the retainer on the spring and place on the base of the spring checker.

3. Compress the spring to the desired installed height. This is the measurement between the top of the spring (on the bottom side of the retainer where the outer spring sits) and the bottom of the spring on the base.
* NOTE *
Since the retainer is installed in the spring when checking the spring loads, make certain that the thickness of the retainer is not included when calculating the installed height and is accounted for when compressing the spring. The spring load checker will show to be higher with the spring installed at the correct height.



Installation
1. Before installing the spring on the cylinder heads, check the installed spring height (Diagram A). This is the distance from the bottom of the retainer to the surface where the spring rests on the head. The valves, retainers and valve locks will be used in this step. First, install the valve in the guide, then install the retainer and valve locks. Pull the retainer tightly against the valve locks while holding the valve assembly steady.
Measure the distance between the spring seat and the outside step of the retainer using your height micrometer (Part #4928 or #4929) or a snap gauge and a pair of calipers. Repeat this procedure for all the valves and record your Information. After you have measured all the valves, find the shortest height. This will become the spring’s installed height on your heads. If your combination includes a dual or triple spring assembly, it will be necessary to allow for the inner steps of the retainer.

2. Once you have determined the shortest installed height, it will be necessary to use shims to obtain this height (±.020” is acceptable) on the remaining valves. These are available through our catalog or at any of
your local COMP Cams® dealers.

3. Before removing the retainers, measure the distance from the bottom of the retainer to the top of the valve seal (Diagram A). This distance must be greater than the lift of the valve. If not, the guide must be machined. This is a very common cause of early camshaft failure.

4. Once the valve springs have been installed, it is important to check for coil bind. This means that when the valve is fully open, there must be a minimum of .060” clearance between the coils of both the inner and outer springs. If this clearance does not exist, you must change either the retainer or the valve to gain more installed height, or change to a spring that will handle more lift or machine the spring seat for extra depth.

5. Always check for clearance between the retainer and the inside face of the rocker arm. This will be most evident while the valve is on the seat. Rocker arms are designed to clear specific spring diameters, so you should check to see that you have the proper rocker arm/retainer combination. This situation can also be the result of improper rocker geometry and may be corrected with different length pushrods or a different length valve.

6. To aid in the engine breaking process, spray the springs, rocker arms and pushrods with COMP Cams® Valve Train Assembly Spray (Part #106).


Breaking In a Spring

1. It is important for new springs to take a heat-set. Never abuse or run the engine at high rpm when the springs are new. Upon initial start-up, limit rpm to 1500 to 2000 until the temperature has reached operating levels. Shut off the engine and allow the springs to cool to room temperature. This usually will eliminate early breakage and prolong spring life. After the spring has been “broken-in”, it is common for it to lose a slight amount of pressure. Once this initial pressure loss occurs, the spring pressure should remain constant unless the engine is abused and the spring becomes overstressed. Then the springs must either be replaced or shimmed to the correct pressure.

 

[grumpyvette]

THESE LINKS MAY ALSO PROVE TO BE USEFUL

replacing worn valve guides
https://goodson.com/collections/cylinder-head-rebuilding-tools
http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/kl8540.html

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2003/12 ... ditioning/

http://www.calgaryfieros.com/OSGdocs/va ... seals.html

http://www.buxtonengineering.com/on_head_valve_spring_tester.php

watch the video, its amazing how often mistakes made during the assembly process ...

watch the video, its amazing how often mistakes made during the assembly process that should have been routinely checked and verified come back to bite you in the ass, and ruin the engines power potential, or reduce that engines durability...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://www.hthoward.co.uk/engine-machin ... -sleeving/

http://www.hotrodlane.cc/New%20LS%20Lin ... inding.htm

Take the effort to read through ALL the related threads, with info you might need, as it will without any doubt be time very well spent and save you hours of wasted effort and a couple wheel-barrows full of cash over time!

If the valve springs are to be removed with the heads still on the car,
the last thing you want is too remove a valve spring and have the valve to drop into the cylinder,
if you use air the crank tends to want to spin the crank to BDC, youll want to verify TDC ,
and make sure the flywheels temporarily prevented from turning from that the TDC position,
Ive used both methods both work,you can put 6 ft of rope in the cylinder while its in BDC then turn it to TDC, Ive used both with zero issues,
If you use the compressor youll want to keep it at 120 psi and constantly feeding pressurized air to keep the valves held in place,
and theres a small chance the compressor pushes enough moisture to allow water to accumulate in the cylinders,
so be sure you spin the engine with the starter with the spark plugs removed several times before you re-install plugs.
if you use the rope, theres a very low chance that the rope will tangle and form a knot that makes removal difficult,
in either case be sure the pistons locked at tdc,
before removing the valve springs, on each cylinder.

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/valve-guide-tools-guide-top-cutters.html
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=7716&p=29813#p29813

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...w-cam-now-engines-burning-a-bit-of-oil.14569/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528&p=46440&hilit=shims#p46440

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=903&p=12435&hilit=valve+spring+compressor#p12435

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2787&p=7220&hilit=valve+spring+compressor#p7220
valve spring compressors
the valve spring compressor design you use and the use of a large strong magnet can significantly reduce the tendency of those little S.O.B,s from poping off to parts unknown

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DCA
$12 or so spent on a decent magnet placed next to the valve keepers during the removal process tends to significantly reduce the chances of lost valve keepers

valve spring compressors

http://www.buxtonengineering.com/on_head_valve_spring_tester.php

http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/62371/10002/-1

once installed the valve spring max length is the installed height,

valve springs must be installed at a specific semi compressed and listed installed height,
to provide the listed load rates and clearances,
example

the cam you select will generally come with a suggested listed valve spring load rate and installed height,
(NOTICE THE SUGGESTED INSTALLED HEIGHT WITH THIS CAM IS 1.800"
and the loads are listed)
you must maintain minimum coil bind and retainer to valve seal clearance and proper push-rod and rocker geometry
the distance between the lower edge of the valve spring retainer and the cylinder head is adjustable to achieve the desired valve spring height through the use of valve spring seat cups and shims placed under the valve spring which can be purchased to lock into a stock height, or plus or minus about .050, and valve locks that cam move the retainer (stock or aftermarket) an additional .050 either tighter or longer allowing the valve spring to expand taller, shims can be placed under the valve seat hardened cups that are almost always mandatory on aluminum head but may be optional on iron heads,(O.E.M. cast iron and lower valve spring load rates)

max lift is installed height minus .060 minus coil bind

related info you really need to read
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ring-installation-questions.12833/#post-66460

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-loads-and-installed-height.10709/#post-46658

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ve-spring-iinstalled-height.12791/#post-66038

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-57678

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-springs.9613/#post-50556

max lift is installed height minus .060 minus coil bind

if the cam and lifter break-in failed during the cams break-in,
theres a very good chance you have a clearance or valve train binding issue some place like spring bind or rocker to rocker stud or the wrong valve train geometry
reading the links and sub links will save you a great deal of problems
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-wear-articles-you-need-to-read.282/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...k-after-a-cam-lobe-rod-or-bearings-fail.2919/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...s-and-improved-oil-flow-mods.3834/#post-10199
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-in-vs-threaded-rocker-studs.2746/#post-90509
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-79273
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/using-rare-earth-magnets.15981/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rocker-push-rod-wear-issues.9815/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-pushrods-and-check-info-you-might-need.5931/