vertex ignitions

grumpyvette

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http://www.taylorvertex.com/faqs/

http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/

http://www.donzig.com/vertex.html

http://www.taylorvertex.com/catalog/pdf ... ctions.pdf

http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/pdfs ... Vertex.pdf

http://www.ankn.uaf.edu/publications/vs/magneto.html

http://www.huntmagnetos.com/distributor.html

http://www.taylorvertex.com/Store/

http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/pdfs ... Vertex.pdf

http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/pdfs ... ctions.pdf
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Chevy V8 12 Degree PART #701000

Ive always used the 12 degree built in advance versions

no simpler, or easier to use ignition exists in my opinion,
you lube the distributor gear, drop the distributor into the engine, set the distributor clamp so its movement or rotation is restricted and takes some effort to turn, connect a toggle switch to a wire from the kill switch knob( "P" terminal )on the side of the magneto thru , an insulated toggle switch to an excellent common engine and frame ground, , throw the switch too the open position, and with your timing light ,set the timing, so the ignition timings at full advance at about 3200rpm, and lock it in place. throw the switch to the closed position, connecting the (P) connector to engine ground and the ignition dies.
to start the engine simply through the switch to the open position so the grounds not electrically connected and hit the starter button, on the floor or use the ignition to start the starter, the vertex needs no further electrical connection, no battery and the car will run with a nearly dead battery if its just strong enough to spin it over.

you don,t need to control a vertex style MAGNETO, with a CPU or need vacuum, once its set up and installed correctly, it is easy to tune and it advances exactly as you set it up depending only on the engine rpms for its advance curve, your single connection goes to a single switch that opens and closes a connection to the engine ground, if its grounded its not providing spark, if the connections open you get spark at the plugs
The "P" terminal on the Vertex is for
the ground wire to cut off ignition.
NEVER ATTACH A LIVE WIRE TO
THIS TERMINAL

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http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/pdfs ... ctions.pdf

you can frequently find good deals on these in good USED condition, but VERIFY it works before buying a USED ONE, if you can

READ THESE THREADS

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=1295

viewtopic.php?f=88&t=1294
 
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If you have never used a magneto before; READ THIS
Magneto Users Biggest Mistakes...
Never do any of the following!

Never connect battery volts to a magneto.
Never use suppression wires or resistor spark plugs.
Set the plug gaps at .018 - .020 for either internal or external coil magnetos.
Magnetos do not require and are not more efficient with large large spark plug gaps.

Never weld on the car with the magneto in the motor. The generating unit may be discharged.
Never rely totally on your timing light as your sole source for timing your motor. Timing lights are typically D.C. and magnetos generate A.C. They also emit E.M.I. (Electro Magnetic Interference). In general, timing lights with mags are one (1) degree late for every 1000 RPM of engine speed. For best results, use a timing buzzer. We sell them and you can see one at the bottom of our products page.
Never operate a magneto without all of the plug wires connected to the spark plugs.
Never run a cast magneto drive gear against a steel billet camshaft. If there is any doubt which gear to use, contact the cam grinder.
Never force a drive gear on the shaft when changing or installing the gear. It may change internal clearances in the mag.
On a single mag warm up with a duel mag drive system and Mallory mags; DO NOT disconnect the second mag from the transformer. Severe damage to the mag generator will occur if you do.


yes, the vertex mags work very well, no question there,decades of use in serious racing applications prove that,
but the new crank triggered individual coil per cylinder ignitions are very effective.
and should not be ignored.

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the vertex magneto is in my experience a very reliable, and very dependable ignition and on the plus side is going to fit and work with a great many injection systems and tunnel ram intakes that will never allow a HEI distributor to fit

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http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/pdfs ... ctions.pdf
http://www.taylorvertex.com/Products/in ... id=4783129

http://www.taylorvertex.com/Vertex/pdfs ... Vertex.pdf

youll generally want to install an oil pressure switch similar to this one pictured below that is a closed circuit if oil pressure falls below about 5-7 psi, one lead goes to engine ground and one to the magneto kill switch,lug insuring the magneto grounds out if the oil pressure drops, you'll also run a separate wire from the ground lug on the side too a toggle switch and a toggle switch,lead to ground allowing you to flip the switch and manually kill ignition voltage.

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http://www.wiringproducts.com/contents/ ... tches.html
73244

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http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Replaceme ... 28511.html

http://www.greatplainsas.com/ivertex.html

http://www.greatplainsas.com/ivertex2.html
 
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when is it appropriate to use a magneto instead of a jacobs style ignition or a distributorless setup? is this an alcohol burning race car type of thing or do people use this on daily driven cars?
 
If I have time tonight Grumpy I will take a few photos of my 425 Olds Vertex Mag spinning on my SUN distributor machine at high speeds.
Spark gap Rack.
They are Kool.
I have used them on the street & track. Doing it again.
No electronics to fail.
 
1964- 1990 Olds V8 Vertex OAC Magneto of mine Grumpy.
1965-1966 vintage. Original Brown Cap & Brown Ignition Rotor Unit.
For my Olds 425 A engine. I rebuilt it. fires perfect at all speeds.
My SUN MT 400 distributor machine(1963 Vintage) shown & other Hotrod goodies, a few of them.
I am Old School at Heart.

WILL A MSD Capacitive Discharge work 40- 60 years from now ????

Answer is NO.

:mrgreen:
 
5.38 Gears Rick & Dana Factory Posi Unit.
Help get the '63 GP Moving Fast off the Line....
 
87vette81big said:
5.38 Gears Rick & Dana Factory Posi Unit.
Help get the '63 GP Moving Fast off the Line....


thats a very cool collection of vintage rodding goodies! im sure thats only a sample of the stuff you have stashed away. cool to see that thing light off. i think the fine tuneability of newer computer controlled ignitions and even newer distributorless one coil per cylinder setups have alot of merits in the case of milking every last horsepoewr out of a ccombination, but i ha ve to admit that brian has a point, 50 years from now my msd 6al will be in a landfill and his magneto setup will likely still be firing off every time on time.
 

That spark looks like it would knock you across the driveway if you got a hold of it!!!

 
Indycars said:

That spark looks like it would knock you across the driveway if you got a hold of it!!!



[sean connery voice] SHOCKING [/sean connery voice]
 
Indycars said:
That spark looks like it would knock you across the driveway if you got a hold of it!!!

http://magsarus.com/vertexmags.htm

It will Rick. Piss your pants pain if shocked by a Vertex Magneto I rebuilt & super tuned.

MSD feels like a Bee Sting. Not much Secondary Current present. Short duration spark in crankshaft dwell time. 20 degrees max.

Magnetos all have lots of secondary current & double the spark duration in crank dwell time. 40 degrees +.
Top Fuel magnetos put out over 2 amps high KV Current at spark plugs 40,000 - 100,000 volts.
No capacitive discharge can do that.

Mags are not for all.
They do require tuneup maintenance time to time.
Setup knowledge & experience required.

Super turbo boost like Phil & guys use require timing retard systems. Relegated to some form of electronic control.
 
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(while I don,t agree with every detail the vast majority of the info in these three quotes is valid)

from physics forum


grumpy?Im trying to find out the difference. It seems that an ignition coil converts the cars battery voltage from 12V to several thousand volts; whereas, a magneto creates several thousand volts without any input from the aircrafts battery.



it takes 25000 volts to jump .025 inch spark plug gap unless you go to iridium spark plugs..$ 8 each the ignition coil converts 12 volts to 25000 volts thur differential series of wire coils internally and a n iron bar core the battery ignition requires a constant 12 volt source and ifin the battery drops below 9 volts the car will quit running magnetos were an early means to start the Internal combustion engine out on the farm in the middle of no where you had to hand crank the engine and set the ig advance to retard position to light the fire the magneto would really put out the sparks 60000 volts and up ifin the engine was twisted to 7000 rpm most race car sanctioning bodies don't allow magnetos as a cost savings?? plus the battery is required to run other electrical things like gauges, tachometers cooling fans for brake ducts etc.. Cd ignitions are the hot setup ( capacity discharge) they generate multiple sparks be engine revolution at idle that help to burn gasoline/air mixture more thoroughly at hi rpm the CD has a real long spark time , up to 10 crankshaft degrees that helps burn the mix better but these CD ignitions are real voltage hogs and can run down a good battery a lot quicker than the old breaker point ignitions] some classes of racing let you remove the alternator ( less parasitic HP drag and weight) and run a battery only..will run for 20 minutes until volts drop below 9 volts and requires recharge between races in drag racing it is not a problem but in round track and road racing could be
magnetos use same type coil as battery ignitions magnetos generate 12 volt primary and this gies the the coil ignition coils are iron bar core, in a sealed oil filled case to carry away heat primary coil winding of about 150-200 secondary winding's located near the iron core on order of 10,000 wingdings this is std coil of 25000 volt out put when 12 volt is applied to the + side of the coil no action takes place until the - or ground side is tripped by the breaker points, photo cell or what ever device the voltage can not go to ground so it seeks the next path which is to " jump" from the primary winding's to the secondary winding's to seek a ground and bingo..you got 25000 volts you can buy a super coil that goes to 60,000 volts out put but super battery drain reason no one uses magnetos is the sophistication of battery ignitions and the CD systems perform almost as good as mags these days a good vertex magneto is over $ 1000 as opposed to a good aftermarket CD distributor system for a few hundred dollars also the gel cell battery's are " bullet proof' these days vs the old wet cell batteries of days gone by
The new Hi Amperage Rare Earth Magnet is available for 8 cyl. internal and external coil Vertex Magnetos that will increase the current by 50% to 90% on the primary and secondary sides of the mag. These mags are excellent for any gas or methanol engines, naturally aspirated or blown. FOR SPRINT CARS, DRAG CARS, TRACTOR PULLING, BOAT RACING, ECT.the rare earth mags will perform perfectly in engines from 400 H.P. TO 2700 H.P.. This Rare Earth mag will perform as good or better than the M.S.D. electronic mag at any R.P.M. our mags will fire off at 20 rpms to 9500 rpms. there is engine shop in Ohio that dynoed our #102x-0-28 mag against a m.s.d. mag on a 1500 hp blown big block methanol engine and found that our 102x-0-28 mag started the engine instantly better than the MSD magneto and made an average of 3 more h.p. and quicker acceleration from 4000 rpms to 8000 rpms.and we have been notified with about the same results with 410 and 360 sprint engines.

Our standard version external coil Magneto was recently tested at an independent dyno shop and proved that our Magsarus Vertex Magneto made 4 more H.P. than the M.S.D. 6al on a 640 H.P. 358 cu. engine. And you don't have to worry about some mystery electronic failure happening! If you are using a starter our Vertex Mag will start the engine quick. You won't burn your starter up! Our Vertex Mag has excellent low speed voltage for starting and produces high output power over 9500 rpms. The internal coil Vertex mag is lighter than all the other mags out there, it only weighs 6.3 lbs. That is complete ignition no extra coils or boxes. The Vertex mag uses copper core wires for 100% maximum transfer of electrical energy to the spark plugs, there is no loss from the mag to the spark plug. M.S.D. mags use suppression spark plug wires so it doesn't interfere with the operation of the M.S.D. box. On the dyno we have found that a spiral wound coil wire that was only 8in long dropped our average H.P. by 3. Only one wire to the mag and that is a ground wire! There isn't any electronic components to fail. All of the new and reworked Vertex mags have a 30 day warranty. We can take an old Vertex and make it perform like the latest trick of the month! The Vertex Mag has won more races than any other ignition in high performance racing in the world!

Brian said:
A magneto ignition system works best at speeds above 4,000 Crankshaft RPM's. And Keep Firing to speeds above 10,000 RPM's if Setup Properly/ Custom Built.

Most of our Corvettes seldom see non stop continues speeds above 4,000 RPMs on the street. Makes little sense to run a magneto ignition system.

There is also the problem of RFI interference. A Magneto puts out a lot of RFI Noise that can affect the Engines Computer System or shut it down suddenly.

From Personal Experience, Vertex Magneto Ignition Systems shine above speeds 4,000RPM's and nothing else works like it at 7,000-10,000RPM's.

A Vertex Magneto has no electronics to fail either. Vertex magnetos have been used in Piston Powered Airplanes. MSD Ignitions havent, at least not legally by the FFA.

I have seen dozens of MSD spark box failures in the last 5 years. Guys want me to fix them. No thank you. Just worn out junk. lol

A Properly setup magneto wont let you down. But it has to maintained properly on occasion by an expert like myself.

A Vertex Magneto properly Maintained will provide over 50 Years of Service. NO MSD box will survive that long.



Feature Article from Hemmings Motor News
May, 2011 - Jim O'Clair
The common magneto ignition system has been around for over 100 years and is still used today on many stationary and portable engines where size restrictions limit the use of an external battery. It is also used on many performance, aircraft and racing engines where a very reliable, super-hot spark is a necessity.

A magneto is a combination of a distributor and generator built into one unit. It is unlike a conventional distributor in that it creates its own spark energy without external voltage. A series of rotating magnets break an electrical field, this causes an electrical current in the coil's primary windings. This current charge is multiplied when it transfers to the coil's secondary windings. Because there are as many more times the number of windings in the secondary circuit as there were in the primary circuit. This multiplied charge causes the magneto to produce a spark at a much higher voltage than was created by the primary windings. In some cases, the voltage can be as high as 20,000 volts -- resulting in a much hotter spark than a conventional distributor can produce. A set of contact breaker-points, traveling over a cam lobe and serving much the same function as the contacts in a conventional distributor, regulates the electrical impulse to set the timing. The points act as an interrupter to the magnetic circuit, which allows a fixed charge to enter the secondary coil circuit, and a condenser acts as a ground to disperse the primary's magnetic charge until the next armature rotation. The quality of the spark voltage will improve as engine speeds increase because the magnets are spinning faster and firing the primary windings more often. On a single-cylinder engine such as a lawnmower or chain saw, the spark plug wire is attached directly to the coil. On multiple-cylinder engines such as tractors, motorcycles or cars, the magneto assembly is placed in a camshaft-driven housing and a rotor and magneto cover disperse the voltage to the appropriate cylinder via metallic spark plug wires. Use of non-resistor spark plugs will result in the hottest spark. The voltage generated by these magnetos makes them ideal for drag racers and cars running on altered fuels such as alcohol or nitrous. Use of a self-contained magneto ignition system on a race car can eliminate the need for a battery, coil, alternator, regulator, starter and all the necessary wiring for each, which gives the racer a big weight savings. There are two basic types of magneto ignition; a self-contained unit that has the coil mounted inside the housing is the earliest version, perfected in the early 1900s. A second type of magneto uses a battery-powered external coil. The most common external coil magneto on early cars was in the Ford Model T. Newer versions of both types of magneto are available from companies such as Taylor-Vertex, Harman-Collins, Mallory and MSD. Rare earth magnet units are the most popular today for their reliability. As with a conventional point distributor, timing is critical when using a magneto, because the advance timing that allows the engine to start easily is not the same as the advance timing necessary to make the magneto work at its peak at higher rpm. For this reason, many modern aftermarket magnetos incorporate a 12-degree mechanical advance, allowing the magneto to work during start-up and when the engine is under extreme conditions. More than 100 years after the magneto was first designed, they are still made for motorcycles, performance and classic car applications.
 
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Hey there. I moved in to a place and found a Joe Hunt Magneto distributor in the garage. Tag on it says that it was set up for a Chevy. I know the previous owner of the house was a Chevy guy through and through. He owned a mid 60's Camaro and Nova. He even left an Apache and a Longhorn in the back yard. Anyway, I am looking to sell it and would want to know what a good asking price would be. Appreciate the help. Some links to the pictures below

considering you have no idea what the internal or functional condition is and, that they are very expensive to repair or replace parts and the external condition indicates it was not extremely well cared for , Its a huge gamble that may or may not pay off for the purchaser, that being said I've purchased several over the years for $100-$125 and invariably they cost more than that to get refurbished but even with the cost to get then fixed it still cost less than getting a new one.
but be aware thats old school tech, and more modern coil on plug with a crank trigger ignitions have replaced those, for most serious racers.
(just because its old school does not mean it won,t work)
WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED? WHAT CITY?
if your close enough to have someone I trust inspect it I may know someone whos interested if your reasonably priced

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hey grump,
I want to set up my vertex ignition on my vintage race car and need to verify what others have told me + what I am reading here. the set up is a 671 blown/injected 355 chevy with and early hilborn gear drive (like a summers brothers gear drive) the vertex has 12 deg advance built into it (like you stated), this is a "crackle" show car so it's not going to race. I am looking to run around 32 deg total when running (even though it will mostly be idling accept for the occasional "whack of the throttle" to clean off the pistons). with the engine at TDC do I just drop the mag in on #1 as stated or do I manually back off the crank 12 deg's then drop the mag in. Most of my buddies think I should back off the crank manaul ( CCW) then put the mag in others say no drop it in at TDC.



grumpy said:
like every normal distributor, drop it in and use a TIMING LIGHT AND A TIMING TAPE ON THE DAMPER to set full advance where you intend it to be, at the rpms you intend, while verifying its not going to further advance the ignition timing as rpms increase
 
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