What have I done?? Good, OK, or Bad??

Turns out I had not done the great job I thought I had.

Thanks to Grumpy's Performance Garage (on line) they asked me a bunch of questions I could not answer and thanks to Adam Arndt who also asked a bunch of questions as well I could not answer.

I learned a lot more.

All of this lead me to really needed the engine gone over by pros...

Short Block has just been gone through by Kelly’s Performance Engine N. Phoenix AZ.

Rod Bearings were 1000 over sized clearance. This took a special performance oversized set of bearings as a slightly cheaper to machining the rods to refit to correct sizing which would also require rebalancing whole rotating assembly.

Mains were off and block needed line honing.

Mains are .0026 and rods are .002 Now.

Somehow I cracked a ring. This scratched the bore of one hole.

This took required a full set of new rings and all bores being honed and a final dash honing to create a "crosshatch" pattern

Rings are Hasting Moly performance.

Rings were file fited to .026 top and second rings.

Cam bearings were replaced.

A new Fel-Pro Performance rear seal was put in.

Crank was polished

Lost my Total Seal second rings, clamed due to damage by scratched bore, I checked all 8 with a sharp loop and found no damage, suspect rings damage by over stretching with ring removable tool and as part of a standard tear down.

Bill did not charge for rings. Nor cylinder honing and polishing crank.

Short block assumable by shop and has a once year warrantee.

Rich
 
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Adam wrote: Based on my reporting piston to deck is .022. So what head gasket do I want?? Old numbers are the same Heads are 64CC and pistons dish is +18.00cc Stock 400 stroke with 4.030 Bore.

Awesome! If I were you, I'd run the Felpro 1094 .015" thick shim gasket. That gives you an outstanding quench distance of .037", which despite the increase in static compression is supposed to help DECREASE detonation tendencies.

It also helps reduce ignition timing requirements / speeds up burn speed which helps your torque and MPG goals.

If you run into knock, you've got your water/meth injection. As you probably know the winter blue windshield wiper fluid is 30% meth and works well.

The gasket will LOOK LIKE it's uncoated, but it actually has a clear rubberized coating on it -don't open that package until you're ready to install as every spec of dust and dirt will stick to that rubber coating (I found out the hard way).

Felpro wants the block and heads' surface to be pretty fine and smooth (RA55 or finer) so it's good insurance to spray copper coat or permatex high-tack and let it partially setup per the instructions and THEN install the gasket if your block / head surface is in question. (Felpro actually recommends this if you can't ensure the smoothness of the block deck.)

One other thing to look at is whether your block includes the 7/16" hole between the two center exhaust valves as in this picture from Felpro:

FelPro explicitly recommends retorqueing the head bolts / studs after the first heat cycle in the instructions for the Felpro 1094 head gasket.

-I've been playing with some "Quench Velocity" calculators and it's obvious from doing that that TPI engines on the edge of detonation need all the quench velocity that they can get. -Dual plane and single plane intakes and more typical SBC combos are going to have their torque peaks at higher RPMs and the intake wave tuning is happening at a higher RPM -those higher RPMs leave less TIME for pre-ignition / detonation to occur AND quench velocity goes up as RPM goes up. -A TPI engine like yours as a lot working against it as the intake wave tuning, port size, and cam are all making peak torque at a low RPM when quench velocity would generally be much lower. What you DO have going for you is faster piston speeds with your 3.75" stroke vs. a 350 and you COULD significantly improve quench velocity even at your low torque peak RPM with a very tight quench distance; that .015" gasket gives you a nice and tight .037" quench which gives you maximum "free mechanical octane booster" / quench velocity possible.

Do you concur??

Rich
 
I have a BBC oil pump incoming and will measure it carefully for correct pickup placement, and double check for distributor to drive shaft to clearance.

Rich
 
What you DO have going for you is faster piston speeds with your 3.75" stroke vs. a 350 and you COULD significantly improve quench velocity even at your low torque peak RPM with a very tight quench distance; that .015" gasket gives you a nice and tight .037" quench which gives you maximum "free mechanical octane booster" / quench velocity possible.
Going below .040" quench distance requires that you know for certain your dimensions. If you are sure about deck height of .022" for ALL cylinders and since you are not going to exceed about 4500 rpm (???), then you should be good. But consider that piston pin height, rod length and crank throw can vary and if they all line-up and add to the piston top being higher in the cylinder, then this could subtract a few thousands from your deck height therefore dropping the quench distance below .035".

Another factor that can come into play is the piston to cylinder wall clearance and how much the piston can rock when it goes over TDC. Just something else to think about. What is your clearance ? What kind of pistons....... forged, cast or hypereutectic ?
 
Kelly’s stated they follow the specs for my pistons:

The pistons are KB Piston Style with a D-shaped cup: Piston Material: Hypereutectic aluminum: Manufacturer's Part Number: KB142-030 UPC: 800745046819 On invoice 2/12/04 ($251.60) My pistons:

Bore (in): 4.030 in.

Piston Style: Dish, with a D-shaped cup

Compression Height (in): 1.561 in.

Piston Head Volume (cc): +18.00cc

Piston to deck is .022: ALL 7 pistons read out as .022 BUT #1 which read as .035 so it is .013 lower.

Piston to cylinder wall is .0015 to .0020 as per KB spects.

Ring gaps of new Hastings Performance Moly rings are top .026 and second .026 again according to KB specs.

Machined SBC 400 crank with 5.565" 400 rods

ALL 7 pistons read out as .022 BUT #1 which read as .035 so it is .013 lower.

I do not plan on running over 4500 except when in a full power take off. I will never run much over 3500 even claiming a mountain.

Lost my Total Seal second rings, clamed due to damage by scratched bore, I checked all 8 with a sharp loop and found no damage, suspect rings damage by over stretching with ring removable tool and as part of a standard tear down.

Bill did not charge for rings. Nor cylinder honing and polishing crank.


Rest of the specs:

The piston top, combustion chamber, and intake and exhaust valve have all been Ceramic thermal barrier coated.

Heads are stock 193 with 64cc Swirl port heads #14102193 with 1.94" / 1.5" valves, three angle seats and standard cleanup work done, Perfect circle valve seals.

Tested stock springs with Exhaust valve rotators.

Lifters: Rhodes Roller VMax lifters

Cam is from Oregon Camshaft #806 roller cam:
Adv duration: 265/270 @.006 206/213 @ 0.050": lift: 431"/428", LSA: 114, ICL: 110
9.25:1 static CR

Cam timing at .050 Intake open .7BTDC close 33ABDC 45 BBDC Exhaust open 45 BBDC and Closes at -12 ATDC this is by the spec sheet.

1.5 ratio roller-tipped rockers Lift by 1.5 = .413/.428 ( I know the roller is worthless, but at lease they are true 1.5)

Running Rhoads V-Max roller lifters at .05% reduction so at low rpms she will be:

Dur. 196/202 Lift 393/407 Seat to seat dur. 251.5/256.5 lobe sep. 114

Degreed it very carefully even added peg timing bushing to get it dead on spec.

Stock 87 TPI intake stock Reported by DYNO2003: Induction: 668.0 CFM @ 1.50

I am running an 87 Corvette TPI. I am counting on it making some if not more of the claimed improvements of 30% more Torque, HP, and MPG with this set up.

ECM will be 7424 programed for 4L80e and modified to run MPFI, and later will add lean burn crust for extra 5/10MPG.

Stock cast iron exhausts manifolds, I am considering headers…

Plan on adding water and meth injection as well.

I do not plan on running over 4500 except when in a full power take off. I will almost never run much over 3500 even claiming a mountain.

Rich
 
I have not used the newer oils long enough to form any opinion yet
as to the cam, I think its a bit to conservative (mild) and the LSA it a bit wider than ideal on your particular combo
and your heads are very restrictive compared to a dozen options


 
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I am building a high torque low RPM engine, for max MPG. Van is geared to cruse at 75/80MPH at 1600/1700RPMs.
 
I had found the https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/283217-garage-ported-193-s.html report way back then and there was another couple of 193 stock heads one under a title like a Super Secret Heads, all said something like OMG I always though these a were crap heads...BUT look at the results.

Your post leads to a similar article when they question the tester testing, yet if I read that correctly he flow tested all the heads he tested on the same flow bench under the same conditions.....so I feel his test were correct.

He compared all those heads.

I read all of the old articles. AS I was planing on a low RPM torque engine they suited my plans.

AS I started to build a SBC I started with a 98 TBI engine knowing I was going to run a TPI intake and that all would fit together.

And all the articles on how to use the newer heads.

Plus my take on the flow of the TPI intake is better at low RPMs than anyone has tested, fist almost all testing was done on a Camaro or a Corvette with a stock of slightly performance cam with IT torque peek at 2800 or 3200RPMs, so of course the intake would follow it.

Even then a full testing by car craft show lots of torque at 2000RPMs it was making 296 and at its peek stock at 3000 it was making 328, and that held to 3500. That was a gain of only 32 foot pounds....

Yes they are NOT 6000+ heads, but from what I understand NO stock heads ever were, the difference is these are not a good chores to drop in larger valves and to port the hell out of.

So for me they are great...(Clue Tony the Tiger)

Rich
 
Im aware your goals are to build a lower rpm high torque engine, and Im aware most tests concentrate on power at higher rpms
yes the tpi intake helps power at lower rpms, and its a good choice,
yet Im also aware that there are other preferably better flowing aluminum heads with more modern, fast burn, small combustion chamber designs ,designed to produce very good off idle torque,
yes everything worth a damn , costs more money, unfortunately

example , one of several
 
From Fast355

TBI (193) head will actually do better than the vortec up through about 3,500 rpm and the Vortec will really only pull ahead above 4,500 enough to be noticeable.

As for low-end torque the TBI head has it all over the vortec.

He giveth and that taketh away: this does not match up with above...

Ultimately the decision is yours however, it's guaranteed the Vortecs will make more power EVERYWHERE in the rev range compared to the 193's.
They excell in low to mid lift flow and will build more low engine speed torque. The bonus is better fuel economy too (not sure it matters to you).
 
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So about the cylinder head gaskets??

Adam wrote: Based on my reporting piston to deck is .022. So what head gasket do I want?? Old numbers are the same Heads are 64CC and pistons dish is +18.00cc Stock 400 stroke with 4.030 Bore.
Awesome! If I were you, I'd run the Felpro 1094 .015" thick shim gasket. That gives you an outstanding quench distance of .037", which despite the increase in static compression is supposed to help DECREASE detonation tendencies.
It also helps reduce ignition timing requirements / speeds up burn speed which helps your torque and MPG goals.
 
Going below .040" quench distance requires that you know for certain your dimensions. If you are sure about deck height of .022" for ALL cylinders....

This seems like a good point worth expanding upon: some old SBC blocks that have never been decked, won't have perfectly parallel deck heights. (I don't have good data on just how much "off" they could be from the factory.) So just because cylinder #1 at TDC is .022" down in the hole, doesn't mean cylinder's 7 and 8 are the same...

Get piston-to-head clearance wrong in the "tight" direction and you have piston to head contact; get it wrong in the other direction and you just have a greater propensity for knock.


Adam
 
I missed Indycar's DCR assessment from earlier, but from everything I've seen you're pushing the limits, especially with Phoenix heat.

If it knocks: retard the timing around the areas where it knocks, add octane-in-a-can, water or water / meth injection. Setup the Rhodes lifters to bleed down less, retard the cam timing.

Or just run a super restrictive air filter and hobble the VE; it's an EFI engine, less air in means less fuel injected-which also means more MPG for you. -Not saying that's what I would do, but the creative ideas are the most fun. :p
 
Yes they are NOT 6000+ heads, but from what I understand NO stock heads ever were.

Rich
A 350 with a 6,000 RPM peak only needs a 1.92" min CSA. -> With a reasonable-ish intake port centerline length of 5.45" that's only 171.5cc of intake port volume. The heads's don't keep the same MIN CSA, which is why you usually see 180cc intake port volumes recommended for 350's up to 6,000 RPM. -There's a few stock GM heads at that volume or more. GMPP small port vortec Bowtie listed at 185cc pours 180cc according to folks I trust, and is about PERFECT for a 6000 RPM peak on a 350.

A 383 with a 6,000 RPM peak needs 2.1" min CSA, which using the same math comes to 187.5cc of intake port volume.
-The GMPP "210cc fast burns" are more like 200cc and can support peak HP in excess of 6,000 RPM on a 383.

There's not much old iron that has the CSA to peak at 6,000, though; fair enough.


Adam
 
HP/TQ at 2000 rpm is 156/409 and without the coatings it's 153/4
OUTSTANDING. I've heard that full dynomation can do some compensation for thermal barrier coatings before but I've never seen anyone actually use it until now.

Dynomation has some sort of knock and ignition timing estimator function, too, right? Does it change it's knock / timing requirements based upon you selecting that the chambers and piston tops are thermal barrier coated?

-Given that it's HEAT exceeding the air-fuel mixtures' (octane) ability to resist self-ignition that is a cause of detonation, anything that increases the heat should bring knock closer, that's my understanding. I've heard some people who put on TBC coatings on an engine already on the edge and had to strip it off to get the engine to stop detonating. (Although that wouldn't be my solution...)


Adam
 
"If you can provide the flow vs lift numbers I can use that to be more accurate. Dynomation is not about using stock heads, but about aftermarket high performance heads that provide flow numbers at a pressure drop of 28 inch of H2O."

I have no idea what they are??

"Why did the lifter acceleration rate (Also called "Cam Ramp Rate") change in post #40, starting reading just below the first graph. If it was so simple as taking a percentage then the rate would not have changed from 2.37 to 2.78. Why do racing camshafts have higher rates? You could improve your gas mileage if your lifter acceleration rate was 5.5, so why not go there with a custom camshaft ?"

Not sure what the first part is about...

"You could improve your gas mileage if your lifter acceleration rate was 5.5, so why not go there with a custom camshaft ?"

I did not find any kind of cam other that factory and Hot Rod. Factory always were lame and hot rod was always power and higher RPM rated.

Even the so called RV cams always moved the torque and power curves up the RPM range. Given those two chooses I WAS going to run a Caddy low RPM cam....until I found roller cams, Rhords roller lifters and fed by a miscalculation believed I could have my cake and eat it too. Low RPM Torque and a more full cam and HP above 3K.

It still does it but it is more the cam than the lifters.

But if I at last got all the settings correct, the lifters are giving me 387 (+51) Ftpds @2k and 2K is the peak, and 200HP from 3k to 4k and 175HP at 4500 and drops to about 140 at 5K.

How numbers are closer.

Rich
Rich: Send Indycars the airflow .flw file that I sent you. It has the airflow at each lift value built into it and he can use that in Dynomation directly. Actually, I've got it handy and will send it to him. Wait... I keep forgetting that this forum actually lets you attach files directly, I'll try to put it here.

*Crud. It won't let me upload a .flw file directly to the forum; it's a disallowed file extension, let me try to PM it to him...
 
Here's the best I could find for 193 TBI heads airflow with 1.94" / 1.5" valves; there's a few sets of data out there, but here's one, anyway...

1655329578877.png
 
Hello, Hope you don't mind my getting second opinions. Like bad news from Doctor...get second opinion....

Still so way up in the air.

So was told a piston to deck of .022 is stock for a 350.

So it has not been decked.

BUT it it was machined off line then then each piston down the line should be differnat, as in 3= .030, 5= .026, 7= .022

ONE piston out of line must be a slight off rod.

The other bank was read as .022 all four.

Sunk TOO much money into this....should have just thrown crate engine into it...

OH Well full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes.

And really THANKS for all you help.

I know the way I put it together was not good, at least .001 too much and somehow I broke a ring.

So if you and the guys here had not grilled me I would be picking up the pieces of a blown costly 383.

Rich
 
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