you certainly don't require a magnum cartridge to hunt deer or even elk if you understand your limitations

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
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one of the guys I generally hunted deer with back in Florida , recently called
asking for advice.
I told him what Ill post now, its a knowledge of the games anatomy and your ability for consistent and precise shot placement that is critical to getting good results,
its your ability to get in close and shoot accurately in a limited time frame that more important that the rifle you use!

he recently purchased a Swedish Mauser someone had sporterized , but before he acquired it.
he wanted to know if it was large and powerful enough to use on deer?
I almost laughed, because a 6.5mm Mauser, with the proper ammo, would be lethal on even elk or bears,
your ability to make precise shots for lethal shot placement and a knowledge of the games anatomy far exceeds any consideration of
power alone and is more important to your success than any increase power in any hunting rifle, if you can't shoot it well.

everyone has a recoil tolerance limit, EXAMPLE,
I can shoot a 340 wby or 375 H&H very accurately, without thinking about recoil,
but have to concentrate more with a 378 wby or 458 LOTT than the power increase is worth in a hunting rifle ,in my opinion
I have to point out that a 270 Winchester, 308 win or 30/06, or ideally a 358 win or 35 whelen caliber rifle are well proven to be very lethal in the hands of a good shot so magnums are never required.

know your rifles limitations, and practice at 200 yards frequently from field positions, there's no bench rest available while hunting.
I assured him, that surplus Swedish Mausers a darn good option, if the rifle was accurate (most of them certainly are)
he was all set and had an excellent deer rifle
I just started laughing, simply because Ive seen a 6.5/55mm Mauser surplus rifle very effectively used to kill ELK,
and one of the guys I used to hunt with used a 257 roberts which is a bit less powerful to also kill elk on several hunts.
I remember when you could easily purchase surplus Swedish Mausers in great condition back in the early 1990s for about $160, and many people purchased them, as they were both accurate and generally cheaper and noticeably more effective and flatter shooting than your average 30.30 lever action.
the Swedish Mausers had earned a well deserved reputation as very effective deer rifles among the guys I hunted with, in fact several guys purchased and used them on elk hunts,
as a sporterized Swedish Mauser could be made into a very accurate,
and fairly light weight and low recoil hunting rifle are a very low price.



the swedish mausers use a .264 diam bullet, generally the 120-140 grain
the 257 roberts use a .257diam bullet, generally the 100-120 grain

either options going to make a very effective deer rifle ,
that will certainly kill elk in the hands of a good shot who knows elk
anatomy
especially if he uses a premium bullet and limits shots to under 300 yards

one of the older guys who was one of my mentors used a bolt action 257 roberts, on several hunts, he said the key was to get a heart/lung shot at under 200-250 yards, and I know of at least two times that I helped him pack out elk he had killed with that rifle, infact it impressed me enough that I purchased a browning BLR in 257 roberts to use for deer hunts.
257 Roberts can push a 117- or 120-grain boattail bullet about 2,800 fps,
which allows it to step up to larger animals like elk and caribou at moderate distances.
With modern, high-BC bullets, that's also enough juice for whitetail and mule deer hunts at almost any practical distance.


now I'm certainly not suggesting having a bit of extra power and bullet weight won't help at times
some of the more successful hunters I know use a 358 win or 30/06 chambering in a BLR :like: :like: or a Remington 7600 slide action, 35 Whelan rifle

with 250 grain speer bullets, both of those rifles are devastatingly lethal in skilled hands out to 250-300 plus yards
and if you hunt where ELK tend to be in most timber/canyon country shots over 200 yards are very rare
 
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I got asked in a personal message after a member read this thread posted above

" if there's no need for the heavier cartridges to kill deer/elk why do you or anyone else use them"
first Id point out I never suggested that the heavier and more powerful cartridges did not have both,
advantages and problems(increased recoil)
lets compare a few basic factors
lets have a few ground rules to compare a few different cartridges
and Id point out that its generally considered by experienced hunters that you want some
characteristic's,
in retained energy and fairly flat trajectory,
you generally want to have a minimum of 1200 ft lbs of impact energy for deer and 1800 ft lbs for elk,

on target and once the drop exceeds about 18" you'll have more difficulty with making precise hits
any cartridge is lethal with an ideal hit out at 400 yards, but thats rather difficult to pull off.
Ill use a ballistic computer program to compare retained energy and trajectory
all four will be zeroed in at 3.5" at 100 yards. and because few hunters can consistently make precise his out past 400 yards Ill stop there or when the bullets energy or
trajectory drops below the stated values,
I think this might prove useful for those not into ballistic math.
Ill point out my late hunting partner used a browning lever action in caliber 358 win with 250 grain speer bullet over 44 grains of IMR 4064 for decades and killed at least 12 elk, over the first 24 years I hunted with him, yeah, many were cow elk,

none required a second shot, but he did shoot one twice that just stood looking at him, after it was hit, for about 20 seconds.
(BTW I never saw or heard of him needing to take a shot at over 200 yards.)
simply because the area we hunt, you can't see 200 yards very often

look at pictures in this thread

a 223 rem with a 62 grain bullet .355 BC 2800 fps

a 257 roberts with a 110 grain bullet .390 BC 2900 fps

a 30/06 with a 180 grain bullet .452 BC 2700 fps
and
a 375 h&h with a 270 grain bullet .380 BC 2570 fps

450 marlin...with 350 grain bullet .195 BC 2030fps


energy in green good for deer
energy in blue good for elk
energy in red not ideal for deer

but precise hits still lethal
drop in orange makes precise hits more difficult
from personal experience a 450 marlin devastates deer at 200 yards and,
its certainly lethal with a good hit on elk at that range but,
its obviously much more ideal at 100-175 yards, where its excellent in heavy timber.
the 257 is known to work on deer out to 350 yards, and elk out to 200 yards provided your a good shot
the 30/06 will kill elk at 300-400 but its loosing punch past 300 yards
the 375 has more recoil than many hunters handle well , yet well known too and will kill about anything you can hit,
precisely in the vitals out to 400 yards with good shot placement


cartridge.....223 rem.....................257 roberts..................30/06....................375 h&h............................450 marlin

100..............energy 890.................energy 1732..................energy 2507..........energy 3297.......................2230

..............................3.5" high...........................3.5" high...........................3.5" high........................3.5" high.......................................3.5" high

200.............energy 732 .................energy 1452...................energy 2145............energy 2720....................1475
..............................3.0" high.........................3.4" high..............................2.7" high............................ 1.9" high..................................-3.8"


300
.............energy 595.........................energy 1290..................energy 1804...............energy 2227.....................1013

..............................4.0" low...........................2" low.....................................4.4" low........................... 7.3" low......................................20.3" low


400.............energy 485...................energy 999.....................energy 1543...............energy 1810.....................780 energy
.............................19.1" low............................15.3" low............................... 19.3" low.........................26" low...................82"low
keep in mind the BLR is basically a front locking bolt action, magazine fed repeater ,with a lever actuating the bolt ,
for a marginally faster repeat shot than most people can duplicate with a bolt action,
and the box magazine that allows pointed projectile designs
most other lever actions are rated for significantly lower cartridge pressure levels.
you can do FAR worse than hunt with a BLR,
you could do far worse than a BLR in chambered in 325 mag as a near universal hunting carbine


Cartridges available in the Browning BLR:[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_BLR
.22-250 Remington
.222 Remington
.223 Remington
.257 Roberts (Discontinued)
.25-06 Remington ( Limited Run of 150 for Kones Corner)
.243 Winchester
.270 Winchester
.270 Winchester Short Magnum
.284 Winchester (Discontinued)
.30-06 Springfield
.300 Winchester Magnum
.300 Winchester Short Magnum
.308 Winchester
.325 Winchester Short Magnum
.358 Winchester
.450 Marlin
6.5mm Creedmoor
7mm Remington Magnum
7mm Winchester Short Magnum
7mm-08 Remington
See also
hardcastonly is online now
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the 30/06 with proper bullet selection is fully up to killing any elk or mule deer , if used within its known limitations,
which I personally consider , from my experience to be about 350-400 yards max.

you must know the animals anatomy, skeletal structure and select the correct ammo, while all the old guys that were my mentors swore the 220 grain peters ammo was ideal in the thick aspen groves we hunted I found the 190 grain hornady bullets shot much flatter and were more accurate!(link to the NEW version of that 30 cal bullet. its been improved since I used it)
the first Elk I ever killed was with a 30/06 using a 220 grain round nose bullet at about a 90 yard range, any shot over about 150 yards where we hunted was almost impossible as you just rarely got an opportunity to see game in the aspen & conifer past about 70-90 yards
I had selected the rifle caliber and ammo following my mentors advice who had been hunting elk in colorado for over 30 years at that time,
I was not impressed with the rifles performance as Id made a very well placed shot and the elk acted like he was barely incapacitated for about 30 seconds before he stumbled and fell as he had walked about 30 yards before falling, but yes a single bullet killed the elk.
I read damn near every magazine article, I could find over the following year and I purchased a weatherby mark V in caliber 340 wby,
and practiced with it as much as my wallet would allow.
I never regretted that rifles price or spending that much which was at the time about twice what most new 30/96 rifles from winchester or remington cost at the time, as that rifle had in my mind a singular purpose . having the ability to drop an elk instantly with a well placed shot.
I never even saw a shootable legal elk the next year but the following year, I had the opportunity to shoot a nice elk at about 140 yards and I was very pleased as the 250 grain bullet (link below to the improved but almost identical bullet Ive used for 5 decades to hunt elk with my 340 wby)
dropped the elk I shot inside of about 3 seconds, after impact.
after decades of hunting elk I came to realize that there was little difference in the lethality between the two rifle cartridges, if you place shots precisely, but there was a very noticeable difference in the games reaction to the bullet impact between the two rifles, the 340 wby just HAMMERED game, but either provides a lethal would with a good shot placement.
I don't know who is now going to reload most of the old geezers from FLA. ammo since I moved to TEXAS!

btw, many of the old mentors have died off over the decades and the browning BLR and remington 7600 in caliber 35 whelen are now the two most common and prized rifle's used and prefered in the group I hunted with for decades
, Ive been reloading for those guys for decades and in the 35 caliber rifle the speer 250 has proven to work damn near perfectly for decades
keep in mind the area I've hunted for near 55 years is heavy with aspen, conifer and is generally steep rather remote side canyons
 
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I've only killed 1 deer with a 300 mag. never had a shot with my 7mm mag. but shot several with a 25.06 and a 6.5 Creedmoor and some with a 30/30 and 2 with a 300 Savage and every one of them were 1 shot maybe a 10 yard run if they didn't drop right there
 
yes, precise shot placement and a good knowledge of game anatomy is far more critical to achieving rapid lethality than having an excess of power.
but its generally a good idea to not use an underpowered cartridge, and the range and angle your placing the shot at has a huge effect on the power / velocity and projectile weight and projectile design required.
keep in mind 60, million bison were decimated using old black powder cartridges in the 1830s-1880s, so its ludicrous to assume you need the more modern high velocity cartridges to hunt successfully
 
I bet all were within 100 yards last years 7 point I was going to pass on but he walked right up to me I kept saying to myself go down the hill but at about 10 yards I blasted him I just wish I would have pulled out my G 20 and put a 10mm pistol round in him
 
Living in Missouri woods I would be hard pressed to find a shot over 100 yards on my property, so my favorite deer rifle is a rossi 92 using 255 gr 45 long colt. So far has never failed me and has taken a few boars also. Light, fast, and very effective.
 
I've thought about taking out 1 of my lever action carbine rifles but just never have I was always leary if the 45 would do it I would go with the 45/70 or the 44 Mag
 
One needs to know the ballistics of what your shooting, that said a 45 colt in a rifle is potent round. I use lazercast bullets which are no longer in business, but head on have gone completely through a 400-pound boar. In a rifle or old model ruger can be loaded to about halfway between a 45 colt and a 44 mag. If you feel you need more go for a 44 mag or 454 but I have not found the need. An old lever action will do the job at appropriate range and always be humane with your hunt.
 
I played around with 45Colt loads for my Blackhawk per a Linbaugh article on hot 45C loads to match 44 Mag I didn't get as far as 44 but had some snappy 45C loads but never run them in my Henry carbine
 




Sako-AV-Mannlicher-375-HandH-w-Burris-1-3-4-5x20_101001625_9139_F2E028F1D8453C27.JPG


for most big game hunts, where Im still hunting timber slopes,
I've found the BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win or 450 marlin ,
either lever action BLR easily handles the needs
of almost all hunts where ranges seldom exceed 250 yards
for longer ranges and covering all game deer, elk etc.
its hard to find anything more dependable of effective to carry for elk hunts in my opinion than a Weatherby, fibermark. synthetic stock stainless ,bolt action
in either caliber 340 mag or 375 H&H, I've also become rather fond of the sako
Mannlicher carbine in 375 H&H
but keep in mind the caliber you select is less important than how close you can get before you shoot and how well you place your shot! lots of guys are successful using a 308 win or 30/06
 
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I took my first deer and elk with a 30/06 I used 200 grain and 190 grain bullets, both worked exceptionally well, if having a single well placed shot result in dead game was the criteria,
but in the elks case he acted totally un-effected for several seconds and he ran maybe 35 yards before showing signs of lethal damage, when he started stumbling and fell. this at the time made me think the 30/06 was marginal, over the decades I found it was very effective, it just lacked the impressive impact energy that the larger calibers had, but it also lacked the rifle weight , very expensive ammo cost, and recoil the magnums had also.
that lack of instantly obvious impact damage and game reaction to being hit, did not indicate a lack of lethality,
it just did not knock the game as hard as the larger caliber rifles,
never happened, again, once I swapped to the larger calibers(340 wby /375 H&H) with nearly identical shot placement.


Sako-AV-Mannlicher-375-HandH-w-Burris-1-3-4-5x20_101001625_9139_F2E028F1D8453C27.JPG


keep in mind almost all the hunts I've ever made resulting shots being taken at under 300 yards, mostly in well wooded canyons, or steep rolling hills, I can remember very very few hunts or shots taken at over 250 yards simply because game tends to be found in cover like conifer, aspen or oak brush, not out in open fields like you see in so many documentary videos taken on private ranches or national parks
btw ID strongly suggest you avoid any non-bolt action Remington rifles I've seen many non-bolt action Remington rifles with durability issues, browning, Sako, Tikka, and Weatherby bolt action rifles, are my preferred brands, browning semi auto, browning lever actions and bolt guns, especially Weatherby and Sako, bolt action rifles, preferred
keep in mind the BLR is basically a front locking bolt action, magazine fed repeater ,with a lever actuating the bolt ,
for a marginally faster repeat shot than most people can duplicate with a bolt action,
and the box magazine that allows pointed projectile designs
most other lever actions are rated for significantly lower cartridge pressure levels.
you can do FAR worse than hunt with a BLR,
you could do far worse than a BLR in chambered in 325 mag as a near universal hunting carbine


Cartridges available in the Browning BLR:[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_BLR
.22-250 Remington
.222 Remington
.223 Remington
.257 Roberts (Discontinued)
.25-06 Remington ( Limited Run of 150 for Kones Corner)
.243 Winchester
.270 Winchester
.270 Winchester Short Magnum
.284 Winchester (Discontinued)
.30-06 Springfield
.300 Winchester Magnum
.300 Winchester Short Magnum
.308 Winchester
.325 Winchester Short Magnum
.358 Winchester
.450 Marlin
6.5mm Creedmoor
7mm Remington Magnum
7mm Winchester Short Magnum
7mm-08 Remington
See also
hardcastonly is online now
Report Post

in most places I hunted in FLA
ranges tended to be UNDER 60 yards

Norinco-Hunter-AK-Sporter-in-7-62x39-Mint-and-Unfired_101181379_70986_000CB174115C175B.JPG



BTW THESE NORINCO AK SEMI AUTO SPORTER CLONES MAKE A REALLY NICE , FLORIDA LEGAL,
HOG & DEER HUNTING RIFLE WITH A 5 SHOT CAPACITY MAGAZINE
 
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