10mm vs 45acp

[grumpyvette]

45acp or 10mm, when it hits the fan...
45acp or 10mm, when it hits the fan, and your life might depend on the results which is the better option and WHY??
Ive carried a 45acp or 10mm full size handgun for many years, COLTS 1911,EAA witness,AMT long slide, in 45acp,GLOCK 20, S&W 1006,in 10mm the pistols have changed occasionally but not the calibers
anyone care to tell me any reason the 45acp or 10mm should not be selected over a 9mm or 40cal as a personal defensive handgun caliber other than gun size,recoil levels and the magazine capacity and cost of ammo issues which I feel are a total non-issue, at least in my case,in that I reload and shoot ALL of those calibers accurately, and given the choice between those two, calibers,45acp or 10mm which is the better choice?

the reason I ask is that I can,t think of a single reason, if given a choice you won,t select the calibers that should at least in theory put an opponent down faster, so my personal choice seems to be between those two calibers, and IM wondering which of the two calibers is the better choice, lately Ive carried a glock 20 with a 6" barrel, or a 1006 in 10mm, but most of my friends carry 45acp pistols and insist that the bigger slugs are a better choice while I point out that the 750 ft lbs and higher velocity of the 155grn 10mm seems to hit harder to me (IVE SHOT DEER WITH BOTH CALIBERS)

with the test ammo used,
4.6"=1307 FPS, while with identical ammo the 6" version showed a 1387=FPS average or it gained 80 FPS with the added length

AlphaWolf Barrel For M/20L/40 10MM 6"

AlphaWolf 10mm Glock 20L barrel / Glock 40 barrel for Gen 1-5. Length: 6.02in

www.lonewolfdist.com

AlphaWolf Barrel For M/20L/40 10MM Threaded 9/16" x 24

AlphaWolf 10mm Glock 20L & Glock 40 threaded barrel for Gen 1-5. 9/16x24 threaded. Length: 6.61in

www.lonewolfdist.com

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt10mm.htm

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/10mm.htm

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=

10mm ammo
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=297

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...products_id=34

http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id6.html

http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto.aspx

45acp ammo
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=299

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...products_id=95

 

[grumpyvette]

Here is a few results that many might find interesting.
9mm Remington 147gr Golden Saber JHP
penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.622".
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm147grGoldenSaber.html
http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

.45ACP Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P
penetrated to 12.3 ” and expanded to 0.668
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FlyingAshtray.html
http://stevespages.com/page8f45acp.html

Remington 10mm 180gr JHP
expanded to 0.647" average diameter and penetrated to 12.7
expanded to 0.664" average diameter and penetrated to 13.1
expanded to 0.669" average diameter and penetrated to 14.1" plus. The 'plus' is because the bullet exited the back of the block and penetrated ~ 4" into the polyester bullet arresting box. The bullets actual penetration should be well over 15

these are interesting links

http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto180grRemJHP.html

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt10mm.htm

http://stevespages.com/page8f10mm.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2IG6t8 ... re=related

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% pure tin, personally Ive had the best accuracy with BLUE DOT
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

Ive found 8.5 grains of blue dot works fairly well with a 200 grain cast

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/224747 ... -wadcutter
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... pe=Handgun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJuLV-fi ... re=related

since your life may be at stake in getting this correct, Id suggest reading thru these links and sub links
ID suggest these calibers and a great deal of practice

357 mag
40 S&W
10mm
45acp

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=1128

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=4643

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=2062

EAA whitness, or GLOCK in 45acp or 10mm has been my choice

http://www.chuckhawks.com/eaa_witness_10mm.htm

https://www.tactical-life.com/combat-handguns/eaa-witness-hunter-10mm/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cl95vQQ ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKTiVsZ0 ... re=related

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=24

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=303_301

 

[grumpyvette]

IN a 10mm hand gun,speer gold dots in most weight expand well and are good choice for personal defense , especially in a 10mm loaded to higher velocities than the 40s&w can reach, but if you want penetration for hunting and exit wounds, a hard cast bullet , over a stiff charge of blue dot in a 6" aftermarket barrel does an all together better job, if your using a GLOCK #20

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

http://guitarsalon.biz/10mm/

http://guitarsalon.biz/10mm/10mmhunt.htm#florida1

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=942

http://sixguns.com/tests/tt10mm.htm

Ive yet to have a deer or hog get far, its slightly better than a hot loaded 357 mag with 158 grain loads, or a hot loaded 45acp with 230 grains in my experience but not up to a 41 or 44 mags results, pass thrus are common but not guaranteed (use 50% Linotype and 50% wheel weight alloy with about 5% tin added) and bullets expand slowly and don,t loose weight

how accurate you are with your shot placement and the ammo you use is far more important than the caliber, but there is some advantage in making bigger diameter holes that are deeper, and I can,t see any advantage in using less than a 10mm or hot 45acp with at least a 4.5" barrel, if your life depends on winning confrontations, especially if you can,t predict the ranges, your opponents cover,or other factors

reading material

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry ... ation.html

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Have ... 0Faith.htm

http://www.guitarsalon.biz/10mm/10fbi.htm

http://www.remtek.com/arms/glock/model/10/20/index.htm

http://www.thegunzone.com/fbi-guns.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

http://www.pointshooting.com/fbi10mm.htm

http://www.bren-ten.com/agtman/id6.html

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wbr.htm

http://www.defencejournal.com/april98/bulletwound.htm

http://www.internetarmory.com/handgun_defense.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_effectiveness

http://www.bcm.edu/oto/grand/02_12_04.htm

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUT ... NBLST.html

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/pdf/appli ... istics.pdf

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ball ... nding.html

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

http://sixguns.com/tests/tt10mm.htm


http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html
http://stevespages.com/page8f40sw.html
http://stevespages.com/page8f10mm.html
http://stevespages.com/page8f45acp.html

 

[warrants]

I've carried a .45 cal S&W mod 4563 for several years, and before that a .45 S&W 4505. Nothing against the 10 mm, but in a bind I can always find 45acp ammo. 10 mm is a little tough to come by around here.
Before my dept. allowed us to carry auto's I carried a 6 inch Smith mod 66 with 140 grain hp"s. That said, the fastest I ever saw someone die from a handgun round was a 6 inch .357 revolver loaded with 158 flat point Rem mag. ammunition. The guy was effectively dead on his way to the ground. One round out of six hit him, and we didn't recover the bullet. Went in under one arm and out under the other.
I also worked a shooting where a guy took four .45 rounds point blank from his wife. He survived, and they were all chest shots. You just never know. I've never seen anyone or anything shot with a 10 mm.
I had to kill a big chow dog once, and a single round of .45 Rem 185 hp killed it instantly. I shot him from about two feet, and there was absolutley no impact movement when he was hit. He just quit moving. The bullet stayed in him. I wanted to get it to see how it did, but the dog owner would have been unhappy.

 

[grumpyvette]

no pistol round, will in my experience spin a deer or hog on impact,like you see in the movies, but a decent hit will prove fatal in a very short time,Ive hit deer and hogs with my 10mm , 357 mag and 44 mag and got quick but not instant kills
Ive shot a few hogs, while some of my friends watched, from the same tree stand with my 445 Dan Wesson super mag revolver and one guy later stated he thought I was insane attempting to kill on hog with only a revolver until he gained a great deal more respect for them once he saw exit wound , something he says his 308 seldom does, but I keep telling these guys a hard cast 300 grain bullet at 1500fps expands slowly and penetrates deeper than a fast expanding rifle bullet will in many cases.
theres nothing Ive found yet that even a 44 mag loaded with a 300 grain hard cast lee bullet over 20 grains of H110 won,t stop and Ive shot some fairly large hogs in that thick crap, florida swaps are known for.
now Im sure that someones going to point out a 500 S&W, or 460 S&W has more power, but honestly if the 44 mag zips thru , and leave a large hole now,whats extra power going to accomplish.
one of my friends, JACK, used a 45/70 with 405 factory loads with great success, and bragged how it zips thru large hogs.....until the day (with his permission) I zapped a huge boar he had killed with my revolver, and showed him it also zipped thru with ease, a 300 grain hard cast 44 cal bullet is a formidable projectile, when cast from 50% Linotype and 50% wheel weights plus 5% tin added alloy, even a 357 mag will provide a fatal wound on the larger hogs if you know the anatomy and use a decent 158grain -170 grain hard cast bullet, but you can,t always get an instant response, I shot a large buck twice , perfect hits, both thru the heart or arteries above it and it ran off as if untouched, when recovered minutes later,it had two exit wounds and not much heart left but still ran about 40 yards before falling
Ive found that ammo makes a huge difference in a glock 20 accuracy
Ive also found the better aftermarket 6" barrels DO aid accuracy, and BLUE DOT powder and a 180 grain seem to be a sweet combo in my pistol

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=942

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/197373 ... box-of-100

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0000690858

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

my brother-in-law and I have used this hard cast for years with decent results in 357 revolvers, it might not be ideal for instant kills but it sure penetrates and kills well, but don,t think that, the running after a hits unusual, IVE seen a 30/06 get the same results with similar hits, and even seen a 10ga slug drop a hog that got up an ran a couple yards before falling again

If your into auto pistols for both hunting and self defense use,
Ive carried a 10mm for years, youll most likely want to hand load if you don,t already if you shoot a good deal, Id suggest BLUE DOT POWDER

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx ... 42&CAT=240


http://www.starlinebrass.com/index.php? ... 57616b09b1

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalo ... hmlkhip3u7

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

http://www.reloadammo.com/10mloads.htm

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_ ... ing%20Data

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 340047B250

http://www.hornady.com/store/10mm-.400- ... x-of-1900/

http://www.nextag.com/10mm-ammo/shop-html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_Auto

 

[grumpyvette]

LOADS FOR THE 10MM

FIREARM: COLT DELTA ELITE BARREL LENGTH: 5"

BRASS: MIDWAY 10MM PRIMER: WINCHESTER WSP

CHRONOGRAPH: OEHLER MODEL 35P GROUPS: 5 SHOTS @ 25 YARDS

JACKETED BULLETS

BULLET LOAD MV GROUP

SIERRA 150 JHP 11.5 GR. AA#7 1212 3 1/4"

12.0 GR. AA#7 1267 2 3/4"

12.5 GR. AA#7 1315 3"

8.5 GR. AA#5 1097 2 5/8"

9.0 GR. AA#5 1163 1 5/8"

9.5 GR. AA#5 1251 2 3/4"

10.0 GR. AA#5 1296 3 1/2"

10.5 GR. AA#5 1324 1 7/8"

7.5 GR. HERCO 1186 2 1/4"

8.0 GR. HERCO 1199 2"

8.5 GR. HERCO 1218 2 3/4"

9.0 GR. HERCO 1296 3"

SIERRA 180 JHP 10.0 GR. AA#7 1073 2"

10.5 GR. AA#7 1139 1 1/2"

11.0 GR. AA#7 1182 2 1/4"

7.5 GR. AA#5 992 2 7/8"

8.0 GR. AA#5 1045 3"

8.5 GR. AA#5 1112 3 1/8"

9.0 GR. AA#5 1179 1 1/2"

10.0 GR. HS-7 1140 2 3/8"

10.5 GR. HS-7 1202 2 5/8"

11.5 GR. HS-7 1292 2 1/8"

10.0 GR. WW540 1196 3"

10.5 GR. WW540 1255 1 7/8"

7.0 GR. HS-6 876 2 1/8"

7.5 GR. HS-6 948 4 1/2"

8.0 GR. HS-6 1062 2 1/2"

5.0 GR. WW231 889 4"

5.5 GR. WW231 971 3"

6.0 GR. WW231 1047 2 7/8"

HORNADY 200 FMJ 10.0 GR. AA#7 1088 3"

10.5 GR. AA#7 1138 1 5/8"

11.0 GR. AA#7 1167 3"

7.5 GR. AA#5 990 2"

8.0 GR. AA#5 1057 2 1/2"

8.5 GR. AA#5 1099 4 3/4"

9.0 GR. HS-7 1034 2 1/2"

9.5 GR. HS-7 1122 1 3/4"

10.0 GR. HS-7 1141 2"

9.0 GR. WW540 1051 2"

9.5 GR. WW540 1139 2 7/8"

6.5 GR. HS-6 842 3"

7.0 GR. HS-6 892 4 3/4"

7.5 GR. HS-6 946 3"

4.5 GR. WW231 805 2 1/4"

5.0 GR. WW231 895 3"

5.5 GR. WW231 952 3 1/2"

CAST BULLETS

BULLET LOAD MV GROUP

RCBS #10MM-200 9.0 GR. AA#7 1022 2"

10.0 GR. AA#7 1130 1 3/4"

10.5 GR. AA#7 1204 1 1/2"

5.0 GR. AA#5 742 2 1/8"

6.0 GR. AA#5 893 2"

7.0 GR. AA#5 983 2 1/8"

8.0 GR. HS-7 945 2"

9.0 GR. HS-7 1123 1 3/4"

5.0 GR. WW231 950 1 1/4"

5.5 GR. WW231 1010 1 3/8"

6.0 GR. WW231 1083 2 1/2"

8.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1005 2 1/8"

9.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1091 2 1/4"

10.0 GR. AA#9 919 3 1/4"

11.0 GR. AA#9 1039 3 1/2"

12.0 GR. AA#9 1108 2 1/8"

BULL-X 175 SWC 8.0 GR. AA#7 936 3 3/8"

9.0 GR. AA#7 986 2"

10.0 GR. AA#7 1142 3 1/2"

11.0 GR. AA#7 1213 2"

12.0 GR. AA#7 1328 2 5/8"

9.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1116 3 3/4"

10.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1206 3"

4.5 GR. WW231 846 2 3/4"

5.0 GR. WW231 965 2 1/8"

5.5 GR. WW231 1047 2 1/2"

6.5 GR. AA#5 923 3 3/8"

7.0 GR. AA#5 966 3 1/2"

7.5 GR. AA#5 1050 2 5/8"

FACTORY LOADS

BULLET LOAD MV GROUP

150 GR. JHP HORNADY 1278 1 7/8"

200 GR. FMJ HORNADY 1113 2 3/8"

170 GR. JHP PMC 1150 2 1/4"

200 GR. FMJ PMC 1067 2 1/4"

170 GR. SWC LOAD-X 1050 1 3/8"



FIREARM:AMT JAVELINA 10MM BARREL LENGTH: 7"

BRASS: MIDWAY 10MM PRIMER: CCI #300

CHRONOGRAPH: OEHLER MODEL 35P GROUPS: FIVE SHOTS AT 25 YDS.

BULLET LOAD MV GROUP

SIERRA 150 JHP 13.0 GR. AA#7 1406 2 1/4"

SIERRA 150 JHP 12.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1463 2 1/2"

HORNADY 170 JHP 13.0 GR. AA#7 1374 2"

HORNADY 170 JHP 11.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1323 2 1/2"

SIERRA 180 JHP 10.5 GR. AA#7 1164 1 3/4"

SIERRA 180 JHP 12.0 GR. AA#7 1274 2 3/8"

SIERRA 180 JHP 10.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1225 2 3/8"

SIERRA 180 JHP 5.5 GR. WW231 959 1 7/8"

SPEER 190 JFP 10.5 GR. AA#7 1162 2 1/4"

SPEER 190 JFP 11.0 GR. AA#7 1189 4 1/4"

SPEER 190 JFP 10.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1212 5 1/2"

SPEER 190 JFP 5.5 GR. WW231 934 1 3/4"

HORNADY 200 JFP 10.5 GR. AA#7 1171 2 1/4"

HORNADY 200 JFP 11.0 GR. AA#7 1179 1 1/2"

HORNADY 200 JFP 9.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1132 3"

HORNADY 200 JFP 5.5 GR. WW231 948 1 3/4"

CAST BULLETS

RCBS #10MM-200 10.5 GR. AA#7 1229 2 3/4"

RCBS #10MM-200 11.0 GR. AA#7 1281 1 1/4"

RCBS #10MM-200 10.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1321 3"

RCBS #10MM-200 5.5 GR. WW231 1078 1 1/2"

BULL-X 175 GR. SWC 5.5 GR. WW231 1096 1 3/4"

 

[DorianL]

Hmmm,

I'll give you one reason to use a different, smaller caliber: shoot what you are most comfortable with.

Some people can never get comfortable with larger calibers and pistols that require a good grip. The result: they miss. Stopping power is good. But you have to hit your target. Accurate marks(wo)manship with large calibers is best - think we all agree. Yet some people, often women folk, never can quite get around to harnessing the bigger bangs.

I say shoot what you are most comfortable and accurate with.

 

[grumpyvette]

while Id agree that its very easy to select a caliber or a pistol design that's a bit difficult to control and be accurate with, under stressful conditions, where recoil, muzzle flash and concussion all tend to slow rapid re-acquisition of the target, theres also a tendency to select a pistol or revolver thats much too small, or too light weight to be effective because your concentrating more on conceal-ability or low recoil.
In my opinion,the 9mm parabelum in a semi auto and 38 +p in a revolver , both with a minimum 3" barrel are about the lower limit in what you might expect to be effective one shot stoppers provided you practice enough to place shots accurately.
ITS not just the caliber but the ammo selected that makes a big difference in results, some bullets preform much more relieably!
but the one major factor you can,t control is the adversary, you'll face and conditions under which you may be forced to fight.
obviously a 140 lb drug junky with a knife, posses a different threat than a 270 lb 6'3" trained martial artist with a baseball bat,if both are out to do you harm, and rob you. and shot placement is going to be critical, in getting the desired results. a shot to the stomach or lower chest may be fatal but its not likely to be instantly debilitating like a shot to the neck vertebra ,brain, heart or hip joint.
THE FBI found that the 10mm and 45ACP did an excellent job with the correct ammo , but they also found as you mentioned that some of the smaller agents and some woman could not effectively control the pistols, that brought about the compromise that led to the development of the 40 S&W, giving you much of the power, of the 10mm in a smaller handgun, with lower recoil

http://stevespages.com/page8f.htm

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/849728/posts

http://www.chucktayloramericansmallarms ... power.html

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_StoppingPower.htm

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary ... illers.asp

http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm

 

[grumpyvette]

don,t think the stuff you see in movies is realistic
DIRTY HARRY USED A 44 MAG,(with blanks) but even with live ammo ,thats not likely to be very easy to conceal and the skill to make fast repeat accurately placed shots is going to take a good deal of practice
James bond used a PPK, and dropped bad guys at any distance reliably and instantly, again that's very unlikely with that gun
but a 44 mag in skilled hands makes for an effective choice that few people manage to master
but if you want a good anti scum load...

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... spx?id=190
these bullets over 15.2 grains of BLUE DOT powder

with a MAG primer will give you a great anti scum load in a 44 mag revolver, that load will drop a deer with one will placed shot consistently from my 44 mag revolver but it won,t always exit, and makes a huge mess of the internal impact area, in my 10" barrel its over 1500fps

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=1864

viewtopic.php?f=91&t=3744

http://stevespages.com/page8f.htm

a good deal of FLORIDA SWAMPS LOOK'S LIKE THESE pictures
typical palmetto thickets where 20 -40 yard shots are the normal range, and where some areas where use of a climbing tree stand offer's you a big advantage

two of the better choices in my opinion if your looking for significantly less recoil is the 40S&W and 9mm in a reasonable sized gun

the glock

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... pe=Handgun

Ive found 8.5 grains of blue dot works fairly well with a 200 grain cast

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/224747 ... -wadcutter

and EAA pistols work very well

 

[John]

A girl from the office wanted to go shoot so we went to an indoor range a few weeks ago. I took my Browning Hi Power (9mm), Kimber Pro Carry II (.45 ACP), and Sig Sauer P220 Carry (.45 ACP). I didn't try to tell her what kicked and what didn't, I wanted her to choose one that felt good in her hand and that she liked to shoot. She didn't even shoot the Kimber and she only shot about five rounds out of the Browning. But she did shoot most all of the 100 rds of .45 through the Sig before we left. She chose what she liked to shoot and has no idea that maybe she should have started with a .22LR and worked her way up to .38 Spl or 9mm. She was shooting at 21 and 33 feet and did well. She kept both of her targets and pinned them on the wall behind her desk. Now she wants a Sig of her own.

 

[DeLong]

Just some trivia the gun dirty Harry used was actually a s&w .41 they called a .44. I have one and it is a neat gun. I'm also a big fan of the glocks. I'm thinking about hitting the local training site for a 3 day class in self defense ASAP. Chicago is a dump about ready to explode. I'm south of there by about 70 miles but the near by locals could cause a lot of problems if they followed suit.

 

[DorianL]

Heheheh - I am saving up for an Equinox myself. There is something so incredibly smooth about the action. I suppose excellent design can make a good difference.