327 cam recommendations

[Mitch]

Hey folks, im building an engine for a chevy II build. this will be a weekend local car show and maybe local strip car. Im building this for fun. its a throwback. something i would of built ( if i had the money) as a younger man. i know there are way better parts combos out there. i dont care.
this is what i have built so far.
.040 bored 327 early small journal
2 notch flat top (venolia) pistons. .036 quench
forged crank and rods ( big shoulder, bushed) factory. balanced. ARP everywhere
461 heads , 2.02. 3 angle ported. bigger crower springs. stainless valves.
TM1 tunnel ram with the floor modified much like a victor.
I have 2, 450 mech secondaries ( open to suggestions)
muncie close ratio 4spd
4:71 ford 9in.
i have a crower 00322 cam. this is a mech flat tappet. Dur @ .050” Lift: 248°/254° RR: 1.5/1.5 Gross Lift: .504”/.528” LSA: 112° RPM: this is where my question comes in. anyone ever use this cam? any recommendations for a cam for this setup.
I want something semi radical. i had a chevelle with 283 with a Crane solid F-278-2 cam .480-500 lift. loved it. screamed from 3000 up.
should i go roller? like i said weekend warrior retro 70s build.

 

[Indycars]

i have a crower 00322 cam. this is a mech flat tappet. Dur @ .050” Lift: 248°/254° RR: 1.5/1.5 Gross Lift: .504”/.528” LSA: 112° RPM: this is where my question comes in. anyone ever use this cam? any recommendations for a cam for this setup.

I've not done a Dynomation simulation with that cam, but maybe Grumpy will have. As far as cam suggestions, what RPM are you wanting to stay under? Are your rods OEM, or aftermarket with ARP?

I would be happy to do several sims with different cams for comparison. I would need the following info if you are interested. I have all the cam numbers for the Crower 00322, but any future cams I would need them.

Dynomation 6 Input Variables

Dynomation-6 Engine Simulation

Bore & Stroke:
Displacement: cubic inches
Rod Length:
Heads Make/Model with flow numbers: Flow (CFM) at several lift points. [I have flow numbers for the fuelie heads, are yours modified???]
Combustion Chamber Size in CC’s:
Dome Volume: For a domed piston use a (-) negative number.
Valve Relief Volume: For a piston with valve reliefs or dish, use a (+) positive number.
Deck Clearance: (Piston to Block Surface)
Head Gasket Bore:
Head Gasket Thickness:
Valve Sizes Intake/Exhaust:
Intake Manifold Type: [Single or Dual Plane]
Manufacture/Model #:
Carburetor Size or EFI (CFM):
Blower/Turbo Make/Model:
Belt Ratio:
Header Tube Diameter: 1-5/8", 1-3/4", 1-7/8", 2.0"
Cam Part Number:
Cam Specs: Need all 8 valve timing events at seat-to-seat and at 0.050” plus lobe lift or valve lift OR post Cam Card OR give me what you have.
Rocker Ratio - Intake/Exhaust:
Cam Installed per Cam Card, or Retarded or Advanced:
Fuel Used: Gasoline (Octane ?), Methanol, Ethanol, E85 .....



.

 

[Mitch]

Thanks for the reply! yes the rods are OEM, I bought the crank rods pistons from a guy that used them in super stock . they had the sides ground shotpeened and small end bushed. new ARP bolts . all checked out. I plan on keeping it under 7k. i know folks will say rods are iffy. but they checked out good. Im not closed to changing them for aftermarket. ( and getting everything rebalanced) not sure which ones i would go with though.

 

[Mitch]

oh yeah, heads have been ported. i dont have flow numbers though...

 

[Indycars]

Thanks for the reply! yes the rods are OEM, I bought the crank rods pistons from a guy that used them in super stock . they had the sides ground shotpeened and small end bushed. new ARP bolts . all checked out. I plan on keeping it under 7k. i know folks will say rods are iffy. but they checked out good. Im not closed to changing them for aftermarket. ( and getting everything rebalanced) not sure which ones i would go with though.

I know what Grumpy is going to say .... That stress is accumulative!
You don't know how many cycles those rods have gone thru before you got them. Scat rotating assemblies are the most popular and second would be the Eagle components.

Scat Pro Comp I-Beam Connecting Rods CHEVROLET 5.3L/327 Chevy small block Gen I - Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing

Find CHEVROLET 5.3L/327 Chevy small block Gen I Scat Pro Comp I-Beam Connecting Rods and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing! These Scat I-beam connecting rods incorporate all of the best features possible for an I-beam rod, including some strength adders found in H-beam...

www.summitracing.com

Scat Pro Stock I-Beam Connecting Rods CHEVROLET 5.3L/327 Chevy small block Gen I - Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing

Find CHEVROLET 5.3L/327 Chevy small block Gen I Scat Pro Stock I-Beam Connecting Rods and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing! Scat Pro-Stock I-beam connecting rods incorporate all of the best features possible for an I-beam rod, including some strength-adders found in H-beam...

www.summitracing.com

 

[Mitch]

yeah , i understand that, and have always had that doubt in the back of my mind. so i think i will go ahead and do the change.

 

[Mitch]

Bore & Stroke:
Displacement: cubic inches 333ci
Rod Length: 5.7in
Heads Make/Model with flow numbers: Flow (CFM) at several lift points. [I have flow numbers for the fuelie heads, are yours modified???]
Combustion Chamber Size in CC’s: stock
Dome Volume: For a domed piston use a (-) negative number. flat top
Valve Relief Volume: For a piston with valve reliefs or dish, use a (+) positive number. 2 individual notches ( Venolia)
Deck Clearance: (Piston to Block Surface) .016
Head Gasket Bore:
Head Gasket Thickness: .020
Valve Sizes Intake/Exhaust: 2.02 1.6
Intake Manifold Type: [Single or Dual Plane] tunnelram modified
Manufacture/Model #: TM1
Carburetor Size or EFI (CFM): 2x 450 cfm
Blower/Turbo Make/Model:
Belt Ratio:
Header Tube Diameter: 1-5/8", 1-3/4", 1-7/8", 2.0" 1-3/4
Cam Part Number: 00322
Cam Specs: Need all 8 valve timing events at seat-to-seat and at 0.050” plus lobe lift or valve lift OR post Cam Card OR give me what you have.
Rocker Ratio - Intake/Exhaust: 1.5 crane
Cam Installed per Cam Card, or Retarded or Advanced:
Fuel Used: Gasoline (Octane ?), Methanol, Ethanol, E85 .....

 

[Grumpy]

Id suppose a great deal of what you might want to modify or change is like most of us limited by your budget constraints/limitations.
yes roller cams and use of e85 have potential power advantages
Id love to know the true effective compression ratio?
and pictures of the car, engine components etc. would be very helpful?
tire diameter? car weight? head flow numbers? combustion chamber CCs ?

I used to run this cam (linked below)with 1.6:1 roller rockers ,(that changes the lift to .552/.570 with the higher ratio rockers)
cam installed strait up (split overlap) in similar builds, so your not that far off
but Id have the static compression in the 11:1-11.5:1 range, back when SUNOCO 260 was easy to find

http://grumpysperformance.com/crane110921.jpg

 

[Indycars]

I really need a chamber volume so I can get the SCR/DCR correct !

Are you using the fuelie heads to be period correct or can we talk about some better heads? Even the Vortec head is better than the fuelie head.

When I looked at my flow file for the fuelie head it only had 2 data points, 0.050" and 0.500". Not very good.

I did find these numbers on the Camaro website, but these are at best only a guess, and then yours are modified. As long as we settle on some flow numbers and not change them, then we can change camshafts for comparison. The actual HP/TQ will not be accurate.

flow numbers for gm 461 camel hump heads

www.camaros.net

I did read one test on flow #'s for a 461 (stock, untouched), the #'s were as follows:
.050" 1-38.9, E-20.9
.100" 1-57.9, E-44.0
.150" 1-79.6, E-60.7
.200" 1-104.7, E-82,3
.250" 1-125.6, E-101.9
.300" 1-148.0, E-114.4
.400" 1-175.2, E-129.8
.500" 1-187.1, E-132.6
.600" 1-188.5, E-139.5
.650" 1-188.5, E-139.5

These flow #'s were just something I found off the 'net, I don!t know how valid the data is. They are supposed to be for an untouched 461 head with 1.94/1.50 valves.

 

[Indycars]

I found this and should be pretty accurate since it comes from the Stan Weiss website.

Stan Weiss' - Cylinder Head Flow Data at 28 Inches of Water -- DFW / FLW Flow Files for use with Engine Simulation Software

Cylinder Head Flow Data @ 28 Inches of Water -- DFW / FLW Flow Files for use with Engine Simulation Software

users.erols.com

Manufacturer Part Number	Port/Vol Int/Exh	Valve Size Int/Exh	Comb. Chamber Vol	.100	.200	.300	.400	.500	.600	.700	.800	.900	1.000	Average
Chevy 461 Iron​	161/63	2.02/1.60	64	-	-	-	-	216/137	-	-	-	-	-	-
Chevy 461 Ported Iron​	N/A	2.02/1.60 4.06	N/A	94/65	152/102	183/126	210/147	224/162	232/172	238/180

I found the chamber volume to be 64cc for a stock 461 chamber, but yours has been modified ???

Guide to Chevy Small-Block Production Heads - Chevy DIY

Every step of the small-block Chevy’s performance history has originated out of production parts. High-performance efforts have always begun by improving upon what the factory built, and the smallblock Chevy is the poster child for that effort. This is a quick walk through the history and...

www.chevydiy.com

.

 

[Mitch]

Yes im using the fuelie heads to be period correct and if i lose some flow because of that, its ok. they were originally 1.94s. i had 2.02s installed and the combustion chamber relieved for the bigger valve. 3 angle valve job , i ported them myself using chevy performance blueprints. i didnt go as extreme as they do. the runners opened up to a 1205 gasket. yes i know vortec heads flow better and with the amount of money i put in these that i could of bought a very good aftermarket head.
i found these numbers on Stan Weiss flow numbers.

Manufacturer Part Number	Port/Vol Int/Exh	Valve Size Int/Exh	Comb. Chamber Vol	.100	.200	.300	.400	.500	.600	.700	.800	.900	1.000	Average
Chevy 461 Iron​	161/63	2.02/1.60	64	-	-	-	-	216/137	-	-	-	-	-	-
Chevy 461 Ported Iron​	N/A	2.02/1.60 4.06	N/A	94/65	152/102	183/126	210/147	224/162	232/172	238/180	-	-	-	-

 

[Mitch]

Id suppose a great deal of what you might want to modify or change is like most of us limited by your budget constraints/limitations.
yes roller cams and use of e85 have potential power advantages
Id love to know the true effective compression ratio?
and pictures of the car, engine components etc. would be very helpful?
tire diameter? car weight? head flow numbers? combustion chamber CCs ?

I used to run this cam (linked below)with 1.6:1 roller rockers ,(that changes the lift to .552/.570 with the higher ratio rockers)
cam installed strait up (split overlap) in similar builds, so your not that far off
but Id have the static compression in the 11:1-11.5:1 range, back when SUNOCO 260 was easy to find

http://grumpysperformance.com/crane110921.jpg

Its not that im limited by budget. i am just trying to build something that someone would of built 50 years ago. i will tear down engine this winter and change the connecting rods ( and have rebalanced). maybe i could CC the combustion chamber also. Tire diameter is 28.5" . car weight i will find out once completed.
Its a major project that im doing part time so its taking time.

 

[Grumpy]

it sounds like it should be fun and interesting.
btw the oil pan on those early novas is rather unique in design
its advisable to do your research and adding an oil accumulator, as a safety margin is advisable
as youll spin that engine up high enough to really need a decent AND DEPENDABLE oil supply

Milodon 31060 Milodon Street and Strip Oil Pans | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Milodon Street and Strip Oil Pans with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Oil Pans at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Small Block Chevy Louvered Aluminum Oil Pan Windage Tray

Bolt-in replacement, louvered windage tray for S/B Chevy champ style pan. Add horsepower and lower oil temperatures. Works great with pan 91015108 when replacing the steel plate bolted to the bottom of the pan. Fits in pan 91015137 but there is no way to attach the tray. Will need to come up...

www.speedwaymotors.com

Moroso 23900: Oil Accumulator Capacity: 3 quarts - JEGS

Accumulator, 3 quart capacity, 20-1/8'' x 4-1/4''

www.jegs.com

oil system mods that help

heres a short list REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers ,valves etc. your most important tool, is your ability to think about how things are supposed to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Oil accumulator

an oil accumulator is basically an aux pressurized oil tank , that in most cases holds 1.5-4 quarts of oil in reserve, the engine oil pump pumps it full once the oil pressures in the engines oil passages is high enough, and feeds it back into the passages under pressure if the oil pump sucks air...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[Grumpy]

Profiler Performance Products 176-21-04-93 Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Pro-Filer Performance Products Small Block Chevy All American Cylinder Heads with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Cylinder Heads at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

I just have to point out your options before you lock in the build parameter's,
heads like these 210cc port and 2.08 valve intake heads (link above) are a huge improvement over 60 plus year old chevy fuelie heads
as the ports flow close to 300 cfm and rocker studs are screwed in , valves are larger ports are FAR BETTER FLOWING, and ideally with that port matched tunnel ram intake.. it has potential.

Can cylinder head flow testing be an indicator of potential horsepower? | TorqStorm

By: Ray T. Bohacz: If you are reading this, it means you have progressed from being a person that no longer wants to guess but instead wants to know how to make horsepower in an engine. The title of this primer is the question I asked myself when I had my engine shop. I then

torqstorm.com

Intake port airflow @28 inches H2O X 0.257 X # of cylinders = potential horsepower

now this is admittedly based on power potential vs head flow, available,
not what that 331 cid engine is likely to make unless you use ,
a higher compression, a roller cam and e85, but
if your fuelie heads flow lets say 240 cfm at .55 lift "THATS GENEROUS"
you might potentially reach 470hp
and the profilers flow 275 cfm (EASY)
you might potentially reach 550hp

keep in mind for a 331 cid race engine with the cam like your referring to ,
you'll want about a 3 sq inch port cross section ,
something the 210cc port is a bit smaller than ideal,
but the fuelie heads (even ported by todays tech standards)are absurdly restrictive

USE THE CALCULATORS to match port size to intended rpm levels... but keep in mind valve lift and port flow limitations
http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/ca-calc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/area-under-curve.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php

Id have to point out that more modern aluminum heads like the ones linked above on that 331 SBC can have the (fuelie hump marks installed with a little careful sculpture (bondo) and chevy orange paint that will fool an amazing number of people) yes its not period correct but its an easy 50-70 extra hp over anything youll see using your original fuelie heads)

 

[Indycars]

i had 2.02s installed and the combustion chamber relieved for the bigger valves.

If we assume 64cc originally and they were opened up modestly, I could use 65cc to 66cc for my simulations. Should have the first sim tomorrow.

BTW, when Grumpy posts something, he is thinking about that person a year from now that's reading this thread. He is NOT necessarily trying to convince you to buy better heads in your case.
.

 

[Mitch]

I really appreciate all and any suggestions and ideas! thanks Indycars and Grumpy! i tried to send pictures from my phone and i dont think it worked because i have installed a dropped axle

it sounds like it should be fun and interesting.
btw the oil pan on those early novas is rather unique in design
its advisable to do your research and adding an oil accumulator, as a safety margin is advisable
as youll spin that engine up high enough to really need a decent AND DEPENDABLE oil supply

Milodon 31060 Milodon Street and Strip Oil Pans | Summit Racing

Free Shipping - Milodon Street and Strip Oil Pans with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Oil Pans at Summit Racing.

www.summitracing.com

Small Block Chevy Louvered Aluminum Oil Pan Windage Tray

Bolt-in replacement, louvered windage tray for S/B Chevy champ style pan. Add horsepower and lower oil temperatures. Works great with pan 91015108 when replacing the steel plate bolted to the bottom of the pan. Fits in pan 91015137 but there is no way to attach the tray. Will need to come up...

www.speedwaymotors.com

Moroso 23900: Oil Accumulator Capacity: 3 quarts - JEGS

Accumulator, 3 quart capacity, 20-1/8'' x 4-1/4''

www.jegs.com

oil system mods that help

heres a short list REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers ,valves etc. your most important tool, is your ability to think about how things are supposed to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Oil accumulator

an oil accumulator is basically an aux pressurized oil tank , that in most cases holds 1.5-4 quarts of oil in reserve, the engine oil pump pumps it full once the oil pressures in the engines oil passages is high enough, and feeds it back into the passages under pressure if the oil pump sucks air...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

Thanks Grumpy! ive been reading your posts for years actually. extremely informative stuff. I was hoping you would reply on the camshaft profile because no one anywhere mentions using this cam or its results.

 

[Indycars]

Just looking at your compression ratio SCR/DCR with the Crower 00322, it going to need some adjustment of volume in the combustion chamber size or the piston dome size.

You don't say what fuel or octane you will be using, so assuming 93 octane.


.

 

[Mitch]

If we assume 64cc originally and they were opened up modestly, I could use 65cc to 66cc for my simulations. Should have the first sim tomorrow.

BTW, when Grumpy posts something, he is thinking about that person a year from now that's reading this thread. He is NOT necessarily trying to convince you to buy better heads in your case.
.

Hey Indy from what i read, 461s have 62cc chambers ,and with bigger valves 64ccs.

 

[Mitch]

hmmm interesting stuff... what results would i expect if i run as is. what do you guys think of the trick flow DHC 175 with 60cc chamber?

 

[Indycars]

I have the first sim done except for the intake, I don't find a Tunnel Ram TM1. My searches keep coming up with the Edelbrock Tarantula, which is a Single plane manifold.

Is this really a tunnel ram intake like below??


OR ..... is it a Edelbrock Tarantula TM1


.