383 Street Cam Choice

[bytor]

Planning a 383 build for a street, weekend car. 78 vette with a 4 speed and 3.73 rear end. I would like some feedback on my cam selection.

383 Build components I’m considering,
- Dart SHP 200cc Aluminum heads http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/127322/10002/-1
- Weiand 8150 dual plane intake?
- ~9.7:1 compression
- 1 5/8 long tube headers

Playing around with DynoSim5, I have narrowed it down to two cams. Both provide around 410hp at 5500RPM. Are these too small for my setup?
The first one is a flat tapped Comp Cams XE-274 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-246-3/
The second one is Lunati barebones 10020 roller. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-10020LK/

 

[grumpyvette]

Id be much more likely to use something like these two hydraulic roller cams either crane 119701 or CROWER 00468 below why not call both tomorrow and get their tech guys input, these would make good cruising cams in a 383 with more than the stock hp levels but would not be great for making bragging level peak hp

CRANE
Phone: 386-310-4875
Crower .
Phone: 619-661-6477


READ THESE
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3802

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5078

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6853

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38

 

[Indycars]

383 Build components I’m considering,
- Dart SHP 200cc Aluminum heads http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/127322/10002/-1

Bytor,

When did Brodix come out with these heads ??? I'm wondering if I missed them when I was looking.

It would of been nice to have the Dart heads to go with my Dart SHP block.

 

[bytor]

383 Build components I’m considering,
- Dart SHP 200cc Aluminum heads http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/127322/10002/-1

Bytor,

When did Brodix come out with these heads ??? I'm wondering if I missed them when I was looking.

It would of been nice to have the Dart heads to go with my Dart SHP block.

Indycars, looks like the SHP heads were added to the SHP lineup around November 2011.
http://www.onedirt.com/features/sem...-new-budget-shp-cylinder-heads-assembly-lube/

Grumpy, thanks for the advice. I contacted Lunati, Comp and Howards. Their recommendations for my setup are below. The Howards 110265-12 seems like a reasonable selection from the reading and research I have done on the forum. In Dynosim5, the Comp and Howards cams are similar. The Linati has on average 40 ft-lb of torque below 3500RPM and less HP up top.

Lunati 60111
Comp 12-432-8
Howards 110265-12

I also noticed there are not many references to Howards cams in the forums. Any issues with their cams or quality?

 

[Indycars]

Indycars, looks like the SHP heads were added to the SHP lineup around November 2011.
http://www.onedirt.com/features/sem...-new-budget-shp-cylinder-heads-assembly-lube/

Well it looks like I didn't miss them after all, I had already purchased my Brodix IK200s by then.

Be sure and post any pictures you have of them, it would be interesting to see how they compare.

 

[grumpyvette]

I also noticed there are not many references to Howards cams in the forums. Any issues with their cams or quality?

Its just a fact that in the last 40 plus years ,Ive simply used very few cams from Howards cams, or had many friends select those cams over the years, Ive used far more CRANE,ERSON,CROWER and ISKY cams,and a few from DOUG HERBERTS Ive heard and seen,very little in the way of good/bad in the use of howards cams as a result
and generally had the best results from the companys listed, so I tend to look to them, as my source for cams and valve train components

just keep in mind every choice is a compromise, adding duration and lift tends to increase the rpm band required to effectively use the power produced, but you also tend to get more power as the rpms increase.
I would not be overly concerned with torque below 3000rpm since your dealing with a manual transmission and a 3.73:1 rear gear ratio, on that engine combo and have decent compression and displacement, UNLESS you use the car for daily transportation and make long trips cruising at rpm levels lower than that currently
one very common mistake is selecting a cam duration, rear gear ratio, compression ratio or set of heads that can,t operate with the other components in the same power band efficiently
the best heads matched to a restrictive intake or the wrong cam will result in a DOG just as surely as a great intake and crappy heads with low compression, or any of a few dozen other miss-matched parts.
if you want impressive bragging level hp you need to design a combo capable of operating efficiently above 5800-6000rpm but thats NOT necessarily going to be a good street engine

example
horsepower =torque times rpm divided by 5252
so 370ft lbs at 3700rpm=261hp
but 370ft lbs at 5700rpm=401hp
and the heads , rear gear ratio,and cam that operate effectively at 3700rpm wont be the same as those matched to 5700rpm, you might also keep in mind youll make approximately 1.1-1.2 hp per cubic inch of displacement and piston speeds below 4200fpm are strongly recommended for long term durability, and hydraulic lifter valve trains seldom do well over 6300rpm, and about 10.2:1 static compression is about the max crappy pump gas will tolerate IF MATCHED TO THE CORRECT COMBO


READ THRU THESE THREADS, look at the charts and follow sub links
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5078

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=519

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5078

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38&p=26432&hilit=+known+engine+combo#p26432

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=8310&p=28891&hilit=+books+video#p28891

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814

read thru these threads and sub links, theres a great deal of useful info in those links and sub links, take the effort youll save yourself months of work and thousands of dollars if you understand ALL the info before you start buying parts
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=775&p=1125#p1125

 

[bytor]

Thanks for the feedback, I also finding theres not a lot of good or bad info out there regarding Howard's. It seems they have been around for a long time though.

So Grumpy, Tons of good info here on the forum and I have been doing a lot of reading. Being a novice at selecting cams, I wanted to get your take on this. In Dyonsim, the Lunati and Crower seem to have about 50ft/lb more torque than the Crane and Howards below 3500 RPM. The Crane and Howards have about 40 more HP at 5500 than the Lunati and Crower. So I'm seeing the tradeoff difference between the smaller and larger duration cams. The question is, which direction to I go for my setup and will I notice the TQ difference on the street? I'm thinking because I have a manual transmission with 3.73 gears the Crane or Howards will work fine for a weekend car. But I'm a novice I'm not sure.

Lunati Crower Howards Crane
60111 468 110265-12 119701
Adv.Dur 270/278 277/286 286/294 288/296
Dur@.050 219/227 225/232 233/241 222/230
LSA 112 110 112 112
I lift 0.515 0.536 0.530 0.518
E lift 0.530 0.551 0.545 0.539
overlap 50 61.5 66 68

Hope this makes the numbers easier to digest.
Indycars

 

[grumpyvette]

THANKS INDY THAT DOES MAKE IT EASIER TO LOOK AT AND UNDERSTAND

SINCE it seems like your far more concerned with peak hp than with daily transportation or street manors in traffic, and because a manual transmission and a 3.73:1 rear gear allow you a great deal of latitude,I would not be overly concerned with torque below 3000rpm since your dealing with a manual transmission and a 3.73:1 rear gear ratio, on that engine combo and have decent compression and displacement, UNLESS you use the car for daily transportation and make long trips cruising at rpm levels lower than that currently with almost any of the cams it will run fairly decent in a 9.7:1 cpr 383...naturally you need to select the cam that most closely matches your goal, so talk to the manufactures tech guys also,
run these three thru your software, the top ones the cam Im currently using in my cars 383
IVE run the next one,in the past, it makes more peak power but its not ideal in traffic, or long trips but its fun as all get out for stop light tire screeching, INDYCARS is building a similar engine with a CROWER 00471

IVE PROBABLY BUILT MORE HOT STREET/STRIP 383 SBC HYDRAULIC ROLLER CAM ENGINES WITH THAT CROWER THAN ANY OTHER, IT MAKES KILLER MID AND UPPER MID RPM POWER IN A REASONABLY LIGHT CAR(3000rpm-6400rpm)but its not ideal in a heavy car for cruising at below 2000rpm

the last ones basically the ragged edge of barely street runnable cams but it makes even more peak hp,its basically a marginal race cam, your NOT going to need to be overly concerned with torque below about 3500rpm with the manual transmission and 3.73 rear gears, but everyone has a tolerance, for what they will put up with to get better peak power, personally I think the 119691 makes a great cam for a weekend toy,where you really want to make good power, the 119661 is better for cruising and a bit of fun embarrassing the local cars, but don,t want to have to think about not driving it on longer trips, the last cams basically for a mild race application, but can be fun on a street car, but its really a bit much.

why not call CRANE & CROWER tech guys, explain what your current combo and goals are and get their input here!
just keep in mind every choice is a compromise, adding duration and lift tends to increase the rpm band required to effectively use the power produced, but you also tend to get more power as the rpms increase
CRANE
Phone: 386-310-4875
Crower .
Phone: 619-661-6477

 

[bytor]

All points well taken. Collaborating with folks like you guys that have personal experience with cam selection makes talking to the cam tech guys more productive in my opinion by understanding the right questions to ask. I ran all the cams you listed through the dyno software. The Crane cams all stretch the upper HP curve well into the 6500RPM range. I don’t see running in the 6500RPM range often so going for solid HP numbers up to 6000RPM is a bit more reasonable. The Crower seems to be similar to the Howards. There doesn’t seem to be a significant torque difference between any of these except for the Crane 119681 like you mentioned.

Below are the graphs of the Crane 119691, 119661, Howards and Crower 471 cams.

This graph shows the Crower 471, Howards and Lunati 60111 for comparison.



The Lunati 60111 seems to be on the small end of the scale so something in the Crower 471 or Howards range looks like a safe decision. I will have some followup calls with the tech guys to confirm.

 

[grumpyvette]

just keep in mind that software dyno predictions and reality diverge a good deal in many cases and that theres no software that does more that semi accurately point to expected TRENDS, most of the better versions can give you a reasonable guess on peak power levels, but few are accurate over most of the torque curve because theres simply to many variables, and in my opinion proven real world durability ranks far higher than having a few extra peak hp on a software or even a real dyno

read these threads

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2627&p=6780&hilit=ramp+rate+lobe#p6780

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=788&p=10777&hilit=cast+cores#p10777

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=9294&hilit=cast+cores#p9294

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5078

 

[bytor]

Indycars, looks like the SHP heads were added to the SHP lineup around November 2011.
http://www.onedirt.com/features/sem...-new-budget-shp-cylinder-heads-assembly-lube/

Well it looks like I didn't miss them after all, I had already purchased my Brodix IK200s by then.

Be sure and post any pictures you have of them, it would be interesting to see how they compare.

I haven't purchased them yet but I will get some pic's up when I do. I found this 'long' post in another forum that covers some hands on testing and dyno runs of the Dart SHP 200 heads. Good discussion and pics.

 

[Indycars]

I haven't purchased them yet but I will get some pic's up when I do. I found this 'long' post in another forum that covers some hands on testing and dyno runs of the Dart SHP 200 heads. Good discussion and pics.

That was a long post, but a good one! I just finished reading it today.

Do you have any plans for porting the heads yourself ???

 

[bytor]

Do you have any plans for porting the heads yourself ???

I will probably do some cleanup but nothing crazy. I'll get some pic's up once I get started.

One of the interesting comments in the post was,

1. For a budget head, it made good power out of the box
2. The initial mods (chambers/bowls/guides) that most people are capable of didn't make much of a difference. I expected to see bigger changes.
3. The point at which it all came together is easy to see with different stages of flowtesting, and it would be
very interesting to conduct this porting exercise in a different order to see if the results would be similar.
4. Without a flowbench, and obviously enough time porting heads while quantifying results,
it's all a crapshoot for the novice porter.

 

[Indycars]

Good discussion,
For my planed build. Using the calculator and keeping everything the same except the head CC’s in order to decide on the correct head CC size. I get a DCR of 8.59 for the 65cc and 7.87 for the 72cc head. A DCR of 8.0 – 8.5 seems to be considered the safe max. So, the safer choice for me is the 72cc head with the 7.87 DCR for the street and pump gas, correct?

Here is another option, you could retard the camshaft and use the 64CC Dart SHP heads.

Engine #1 is retarded 2 degrees from Dot-to-Dot (IVC = 73)
Engine #2 is retarded 4 degrees from Dot-to-Dot (IVC = 75)




What pistons are you using, can't say that I've seen a piston with a 4cc valve relief ?

What head gasket do you have in mind that is .020" thick ?

BTW, I thought it would be easier to keep up with the conversation if I posted this in your thread.

 

[bytor]

What pistons are you using, can't say that I've seen a piston with a 4cc valve relief ?

What head gasket do you have in mind that is .020" thick ?

I'm considering these pistons.
http://www.probeindustries.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=P2256F&Show=TechSpecs

As far as the head gasket goes, I don't have my block back from the machine shop yet so I haven't verified the deck height. It's been decked so I'm sure I'll end up with thicker gasket. Just used .020 as a place holder.

 

[Indycars]

Hope you don't mind, I was just checking to make sure you get the right stuff ! Those Probe piston undoubtedly have 4cc valve reliefs.

Again you may have been just pointing out the piston you are using in general, but just in case you didn't notice the compression height is for a 3.48" stroke and I believe you are using a 3.75" stroke.

Stroke/2 + Rod Length + Compression Height = ~ Deck Height
3.75/2 + 5.7 + 1.425 = 9.0" (P3831F)

3.75/2 + 5.7 + 1.563 = 9.138" (P2256F)
These pistons would stick out of the block.
9.138 - 9.025(Factory Specs) = .113"

 

[bytor]

Hope you don't mind, I was just checking to make sure you get the right stuff !

I don't mind at all, I posted the wrong part number link.
Your correct, the P3831F is whats included in the rotating assembly Im looking at. http://www.skipwhiteperformance.com/detail.aspx?Item=383-RA2F40

 

[Indycars]

I can't say personally, but I've heard good things about Skip White.

Just keep in mind that at the mean piston speed of 4000 Ft/Min is where one should start to think about a complete forged rotating assembly, this is according to the Grumpy. So long as you don't have in mind twisting your engine over 6400 RPM, then you should be good.

viewtopic.php?f=99&t=3370

 

[bytor]

What would you do?

Rotating assembly purchase time. I have been considering option (A) below up to this point. It’s not a 100% forged assembly with the crank being a Scat 9000 series and it’s externally balanced. Option (B) is a 100% forged and internally balanced. After all the research on the forum, I’m now second guessing myself. So, does option (A) with its cast crank externally balanced make since for a 3000lb car mostly hard street driving and rarely seeing 6200RPM? Or, bite the bullet and go for the more expensive 100% forged setup and not worry about it again? I don't want to over or under buy these key components.

Option A:
-Scat 9000 crank 3.75” stroke
-forged 4340 5.7” H-beam rods, 7/16 cap screws
-Probe forged pistons
-Externally balanced

Option B:
-Scat 4340 forged crank 3.75” stroke
-forged 4340 5.7” H-beam rods, 7/16 cap screws
-Icon forged pistons
-Internally balanced

 

[grumpyvette]

obviously budget concerns here do matter,and a cast steel crank is stronger that a cast iron crank,
but personally Ive always felt going with the forged 4340 and internally balanced rotating components and forged pistons was well worth the cost increase , I don,t worry about something coming loose with an all forged rotating assembly and 7/16" ARP rod bolts.
or put a different way, Ive not used a cast iron or cast steel crank in a serious personally owned engine in DECADES, and when moneys really tight , and IM building something for a lower budget muscle car, I suggest the cast steel cranks with 7/16" rod bolts but suggest strongly staying under about 4000fpm in piston speed

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=204&p=13046&hilit=internal+vs+external#p13046

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=341