540 BBC dyno??

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
hi grumpy

i had my first dyno run with my camaro today. it was a brand new 4wheel drive dyno. so they strapped it onto and the guy did the 2 pulls. the engine is a full aluminum merlin-x 540cui, 10.7CR, brodix bb2-x heads with 320cc runners, comp-cams 11-771-8 solid roller cam. desktop dyno and comps cams software both came up with around 680-700 hp/ft-lbs on the engine. i knew that software and real life differs but my dyno run came up with 458HP flywheel and 436HP at the wheels. torque was @500ft-lbs. it has a tremec 5speed with a dual disc clutch. the torque curve jumps up at 1900rpm and is nice and flat but the hp curve falls off from 5400rpm. any thoughts on it? is that just what it is or is something way off? my buddy did a run with his 500cui stroker roadrunner and he was even 100hp/Nm lower than i have been.

thanks,


can you post a picture of the dyno sheet?

you should be making better numbers than 436hp so obviously somethings wrong


i emailed you the sheet as a pdf file

540dyno689.jpg


OK, first let me apologize for not getting back to you faster I had a family minor emergency last evening,
(my sons dog got rushed to the VET where he died, we had that dog for 12 years and it kind of side tracked everyone last nite,)

OK,back to diagnosing the issue at hand,I hope you have a second matched engine data sheet, because most dyno results produce more detailed info, like the data sheets Ill provide, here, posted below,as examples, a great deal more info like these posted below helps isolate any problems as would a list of All engine components used, ALL FLUID and AIR TEMPERATURES, BSFC FUEL/AIR RATIO,IGNITION TIMING, ADVANCE CURVE, ETC. If we have that info we can make more educated guess work as to the problem.

tony_005.jpg

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ONE THING WAS RATHER OBVIOUS ,LOOKING AT THE POSTED DYNO,
your peak torque is at about 3900 rpm, and on a 540 that seems to indicate, some restriction to flow, your cam might be a bit less than ideal duration for the application,or your intake or exhaust is restricted, both can, be further proven or found to be ok with plenum and exhaust pressure/vacuum readings and knowing your BSFC and ignition timing,port flow , exhaust back pressure etc. thats why having the data sheet helps
your heads intake port size is certainly large enough, but either the intake design or the exhaust back pressure or cam timing could be restricting flow, a properly set up 540 BBC designed for producing max power,should easily produce power to at least 6000-6200rpm

volumetric.gif

Stoich.gif
 
hey grumpy.

thanks a lot, sorry for the loss but even then you were super fast in reply. the dyno we had was just a trailer with all the stuff on it so there was nothing extra to get some more information. i need to get onto another dyno to adjust everything. need to do the next pull without the exhaust to check that there´s nothing wrong (even it´s a brand new 3" stainless pypes with magnaflows). intake is a single plane weiand x-elerator. timing was set to 38° all in from 3000rpm. carb is a 850 mighty demon and with original jetting (83/94) it was running at around 8-9:1 and i tried to lean it out with jetting down to 79/83 but couldn´t get it higher than 10-11:1. i need to find a good shop to check everything out. but it´s hard to find a dyno and even harder to find somebody who really knows detroid iron no matter in what shape. it´s really helpful to know that it needs some research to find out whats wrong and the pointing to some restriction is a very helpful tip.

thanks,


given that info, the first step would be to check, YOUR FUEL PRESSURE, FLOAT LEVELS, the power valve BEING USED, and jets and float levels and make the required adjustments to get the fuel/air ratio up in the 12.6:--TO-13:1 RANGE, THE SMART WAY TO DO THIS IS TO MAKE A SINGLE CHANGE AND RECORD RESULTS BEFORE, MOVING TO THE NEXT CHANGE SO YOU SEE WHAT CHANGES RESULT.

BTW, did you degree the cam in?
have you verified TDC on the damper and reality match?
have you adjusted the valves correctly ?
whats the lash clearance set at?
whats the valve spring,load rates?
whats the valve spring clearances(spring bind etc.?
Have you verified the ignition advance or simply assume its correct?
what is your fuel pressure at idle, 3000rpm, 6000rpm,?
whats your intake plenum vacuum read at, idle, 3000rpm, 6000rpm,
youll need to keep that fuel/air ration close to 12.6:--TO-13:1 RANGE,
whats the back pressure in the exhaust just past the header collector at, idle, 3000rpm, 6000rpm,
is it stable at about 5 psi or does it increase/decrease as rpms change?
have you checked you float levels?

can you post clear detailed pictures of your spark plugs labeled as to cylinder?


[b]READ THE RELATED LINKS,
as theres a good deal of info that might prove useful or jog your memory as to potential problems
[/b]

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1639

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1115

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

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viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3175&p=8466&hilit=first+dyno#p8466

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=495
 
i´m gonna get you as much info as possible tomorrow including pics of the spark plugs. haven´t degreed the cam it´s installed straight up. valves and lash set as cam card said. ignition is set with my equus timing light. those are the springs from the 11-771-8 cam http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-953-16/. i printed your checklist but i think it´s gonna be hard to get exhaust back pressure numbers :)

thanks
 
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=495

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3175&p=8466&hilit=first+dyno#p8466

yes it takes a bit of effort but its certainly not something that the average guy can,t do with common tools

Id also be just looking for valve train related issues like valve float just because anything with a valve lift near .650 spinning at over 6000rpm is very likely to be in the speed and load range where its a common problem


http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam- ... d=499&sb=2

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... ode=954-16

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... ode=953-16
 
hey grumpy.

took a little longer but i was busy in my business. i removed the plugs yesterday, the number 2 was replaced a couple miles ago cause the porcellain of the original plug broke and i had this old one as spare. did a compression test after the 50mile ride yesterday, that´s the numbers right next to the plugs. fuel pressure guage is at 6.0 at idle and jumps between 5.5-6.5 when i rev the engine no matter what rpm. compression should be ok? vacuum was steady 15" at idle and didn´t change much when i revved. ignition was checked again have 18° idle and 38-39 from 3-3500 up. valvetrain is ok, lash checked as camcard says. somehow i need to find a way to check the exhaust backpressure but need to drill and weld something.
 

Camaro427-69,

I see where you are using a Demon carburetor. Did you buy it recently after they were back in business???

I'm considering the Mighty Demon for my TBucket and was wondering how the quality was this time around. Before they went out of business they were having trouble with metal chips left inside carburetor and shipped that way to customers.

 
doesn´t white tips mean running lean? plus since i´ve leaned out the jetting i have a bad bog/hesitation between 1000-1500rpm even when i start driving i have to let the clutch slip and try to get the rpms up that the engine doesn´t die.
 
Indycars said:

Camaro427-69,

I see where you are using a Demon carburetor. Did you buy it recently after they were back in business???

I'm considering the Mighty Demon for my TBucket and was wondering how the quality was this time around. Before they went out of business they were having trouble with metal chips left inside carburetor and shipped that way to customers.



bought it 2 years ago.haven´t found any dirt or chips though i checked it for debris. never been dissapointed by the carb and my buddy runs the same on his roadrunner.
 
white tips on the spark plug ground strap like you show, only indicates combustion heat level increases, the plugs should be burning MUCH cleaner and showing both a higher heat level and less dark ash/soot on the plugs surface enough to burn off a bit of soot from being overly rich,FUEL AIR RATIO, which left that dry black soot, your acceleration,bog can be from several sources


RELATED INFO
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I wish the TRANSPORTER on the STAR SHIP ENTERPRISE ,
19_Star_Trek_Enterprise_NCC1701D_starship_wallpaper_s.jpg


was available so I could beam over and help you out, but the best I can do is walk you thru the info on how you can find and correct your issues unless your local
 
hehe i bet you would do. but i already appreciate the help. my brain already starts to smoke reading through all the links and sub-links. i hope to get it worked out, but even when i can´t i´m gonna be the biggest smarttalker on our car-meets with all that information.
thanks,
pat
 
Ive tried to make the site both informative and fairly easy to use, as both an educational tool, and a source of car related entertainment, plus a reference source.
I know that it took me years of wading thru miss information, and out right bull shit I either read or had less than knowledgeable friends tell me.
and absurd manufacturers horse power claims before I started to realize all the basics and understand what really helped, finding out what could be useful and what was a total waste of time and money, and the trends I saw that tended to either waste money or not produce expected results.
 
you did a very very good job grumpy. i don´t know any webpage or whatever that´s packed with so much information and help and even if the user won´t find the right topic you are always around guiding us with replys and helpful links. for me it´s just always a big step to translate and understand all that technical stuff into german language. it´s a long walk but i love it and even challenging and sometimes a headache i would never trade my car or stop that hobby and specially people like you are taking big credit cause of the help when no ones around just me my camaro and my laptop :) thank you again grumpy
 
hey grumpy. i´m setting up a new fuel system. started with a robbmc 1/2" fuel pickup gm stock style and 1/2" aluminum tubing to a holley 170gph pump with 8AN fitttings, after the pump also a regulator with 8AN in/outlet into a russel filter with 8AN inlet and 3/8 outlet into my russel dual carb feed line. i already have the filter and the fuel line and now i´m concerned cause i tried to get all the parts in at least 1/2 or 8AN size to choke the system again right at the carb inlet. or do you think it won´t hurt? fuel pump is a holley 12-454-20 170gph free flow with a 12-704 regulator. would that be adequate or can i use another fuel pump but most are 3/8 inlet/outlet with way lower gph ratings (have a 110gph now with 3/8 stock 69 fuel line system), can i keep the carb feed or change to a 8AN version??

thanks
 
a well designed 540 BBC should easily make 650-700 flywheel, hp or a bit more, you can use this calculator below, to calculate the answer
but from experience Id be looking at 1/2" lines AN#8 fittings and a 200-250 GPH fuel pump, fitting size,internal cross sectional area, is a bit like the weakest link in a chain, if the fuel line fittings internal cross sectional area restrict flow the fuel line size can,t compensate for the restriction.

(Id use a BSFC of .55 on the calculation just to be sure you get the capacity high enough to maintain fuel flow rates, because theres flow losses in any fuel system so you don,t want to be producing the absolute minimum flow required, you generally want to have an extra 10%-15% capacity just to be sure)

http://2.3liter.com/Calc1.htm#FPHP
USE THIS CALCULATOR

FuelFlowDiagram02a1.jpg

heres a good basic fuel system diagram,

related info you might want to read thru, both threads and sub links

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1939

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