a caveat about profiler cylinder heads

Discussion in 'Cams, Heads and Valve Trains' started by philly, Dec 19, 2013.

  1. philly

    philly solid fixture here in the forum

    i recently sent profiler an email asking specifically for flow data, CSA, and port length for their 23* heads and this is what i got back from mike:

    185cc 260cfm
    195cc 275cfm
    210cc 300cfm
    235cc CNC 336cfm


    which barely scratched the surface of what i asked. then when i asked him at what valve lift he got those numbers, he replies:

    .800 @28

    granted, these heads are VERY affordable and far superior to most "as cast" stock heads. but for a 15-20% increase in cost you can get twice the cylinder head from brodix or AFR. probably better tech help too.
     
  2. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    while thats a very valid point, the after market aluminum heads, from standard 23 deg. BRODIX,TRICKFLOW,DART,PROFILER etc. generally flow enough more over and above the flow levels available from the stock chevy and stock production 170cc vortec heads to make significantly better power.
    be aware any vortec heads you choose must have matching components that are not necessarily the same as the stock 23 deg. production heads,vortec heads are also available in the larger 215cc port size that can support far better power levels but vortec heads require different rockers,valve covers intake manifolds etc.
    BTW, Ive generally found the 195cc-210cc port heads to match the 383-406 sbc displacement engines

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=266&p=35948&hilit=215cc+vortec#p35948

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=796

    viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814

    viewtopic.php?f=69&t=7722

    viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9253&p=33371&hilit=dart+882#p33371

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6012&p=18609&hilit=dart+882#p18609

    viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5357&p=16030&hilit=dart+dyno#p16030

    viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1550

    viewtopic.php?f=69&t=7028

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation ... v3ZkqZiMjI
     
  3. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

  4. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

  5. NewbVetteGuy

    NewbVetteGuy Member

    Several years later, I can update this thread with this information. (Provided by Chad Speier) I didn't ask about the 185cc version because I wasn't interested in them.

    Chad measured and provided the min CSA info below; I did the Velocity / FPS calculation using the Larry Meiux formula. What's particularly intersting is that the 210cc head's velocity @ 0.200" is only 3 FPS less than the 195cc head and the 210cc head then has higher velocities all the way through 0.600" lift. -The larger port head is actually more efficient and should produce ALMOST just as much torque at lower RPMs and MORE torque and obviously more HP at higher RPMs.
    It just goes to show that heads should be sized and sold based upon the min CSA or air velocity and not CC port size and that, with modern, very-well designed ports the idea that a larger port will lose you a ton of low-end torque just isn't always true.

    195cc Pro-Filer:
    2.050 x 1.100 pinch. Around 2.15in²
    300fps velocity through the center of the port at max airflow (0.500-0.600" lift)


    210cc Pro-Filer:
    2.100 x 1.100 pinch. Around 2.19in²


    195cc Profiler Velocity #'s at various lifts
    FPS@ 0.600" lift = (274 * 2.4) / 2.15 = 305.8605
    FPS@ 0.400" lift = (254 * 2.4) / 2.15 = 283.5349
    FPS@ 0.200" lift = (145 * 2.4) / 2.15 = 161.8605

    210cc Profiler Velocity #'s at various lifts
    FPS@ 0.600" lift = (285 * 2.4) / 2.19 = 312.3288
    FPS@ 0.400" lift = (258 * 2.4) / 2.19 = 282.7397
    FPS@ 0.200" lift = (145 * 2.4) / 2.19 = 158.9041



    195cc Profiler CFM #'s
    Lift Intake CFM Exh CFM % Exh/Int
    0.200 145 110 76%
    0.300 209 145 69%
    0.400 254 180 71%
    0.500 273 206 75%
    0.600 274 213 78%
    0.700 276 216 78%
    0.800 276 218 79%


    210cc Profiler CFM #'s
    Lift Intake CFM Exh CFM % Exh/Int
    0.200 145 110 76%
    0.300 207 145 70%
    0.400 258 180 70%
    0.500 283 206 73%
    0.600 285 213 75%
    0.700 291 216 74%
    0.800 297 218 73%
     
    Strictly Attitude likes this.
  6. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS!
    I've been trying almost constantly, and for decades spending a great deal of time and effort to say the same thing over and over ,
    personal experience and dyno charts don,t for some reason seem to make a dent in that myth.
    but for some reason the MYTH that a slightly larger port is going to devastate the engines lower and mid range torque curve is very hard to kill!
    and yes this info also applied too reasonable choices in big block heads
    I see lots of guys that select a 280cc-290cc oval port head on a 496 displacement engine,
    that would have significantly benefited in my opinion,
    from a higher quality, 300 cc-315 cc rectangle port head being selected.
    I see guys frequently select heads mostly based on PRICE with little thought going into the net resulting performance. and because the cylinder heads have a huge effect on the potential power an engine can produce they are effectively shooting themselves in the foot saving a couple hundred dollars on the cost of the heads but leaving 50-80 hp on the table as a result

    related threads
    REMEMBER A DAY OR SO SPENT READING AND UNDERSTANDING ,
    RELATED INFO
    CAN SAVE YOU A GREAT DEAL OF WASTED TIME AND MONEY

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...alves-and-polishing-combustion-chambers.2630/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-speeds-and-area.333/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-seat-angles-and-air-flow.8460/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/more-port-flow-related-info.322/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-and-runner-math.148/#post-34936

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...this-info-on-world-products-235cc-heads.6972/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...n-chamber-or-piston-dome-or-port-volume.2077/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...uild-the-engine-to-match-the-cam-specs.11764/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...rt-a-non-issue-based-on-mis-information.6414/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/vortec-related-info.731/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ose-first-sbc-heads-you-buy.10910/#post-47875

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-new-215cc-vortec-heads.266/#post-35948

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-vortec-heads-and-other-heads.401/#post-34996

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-vortec-heads-and-other-heads.401/#post-34996

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/porting-can-help.462/
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  7. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    heads have come miles from where they used to be which reminds me mine have arrived from Tony they are gorgeous I will post pictures soon my phone takes lousy pictures so I have the battery charging up for my dslr camera to get some good pics for my thread.
     
  8. NewbVetteGuy

    NewbVetteGuy Member

    Want to see a freak-of-nature port that highlights just how far max velocity heads can get you, even with the crappy velocity limitations of 23 degree SBC heads, check out Chad Speier Racing's newest CNC profile for the Profiler 195cc heads http://speierracingheads.com/v235pf23ordmsb-205cc.html

    Only 205cc, flows 292 CFM @ 0.600" on a 4.060" bore with insane velocity; he just made 680 HP @ 7,300 RPM on an SBC 380 with a ported Holley 300-110 intake. (2.33 HP / CFM) --The old guideline of 2 HP / CFM as the upper limit is broken with these high average velocity heads.

    The min CSA is 2.3" with an average CSA of 2.37" .

    FPS@ 0.600" lift = (292 * 2.4) / 2.3 = 305 FPS.
     
  9. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    yeah, no question that chad does nice quality work!
    the only issue I see there is cost
    the heads and the required rocker assembly,
    and valve train components used, cost more than likely cost well over $4K or even more,
    by the time the engine has fully assembled cylinder heads and a functional valve train,
    and that obviously does not include the cam, or extra cost mods like the best valves, springs or porting work done to the heads, nor does it include,
    roller, lifters, port matched intake or short block or the required mods to those components.
    no one ever said performance engines that are properly assembled would be cheap to build,
    proper design and carefully done machine work takes time and experience,
    so as a result it tends to be expensive and custom,
    and not off the shelf , out of a box,and bolt it together and go tech.

    but for many of us theres a point that makes it financially very unlikely we will ever build or have someone like CHAD build us, something similar.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017

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