are you thinking thru your rifle choice

grumpyvette · Sep 2, 2012

do you really feel that the rifle combo your using for hunting elk is really about the best match you can get or afford, and have you ever been in a situation using your rifle where you knew you were at a disadvantage?
are you thinking thru your rifle choice?
have you ever jumped elk or deer and found the rifle you held was not as fast and easy to use as a shotgun for shooting flushing birds?
we always hear about and discuss long range accuracy, but having a fast handling rifle that you can snap shoot effectively, without thinking about it, some rifle that fits you so well you could have a reasonable chance at hitting game at almost an unconscious response level, and having the ability to put out a fast second shot can at times be useful.
back in the early 1970s, When I was first starting out all the magazines were filled with guys using bolt actions with 3x9x scopes who made 300-700 yard shots, and the 270 win, 7mm remington mag and 300 wby and 300 win,were constantly shown as the ideal elk calibers to use in those magazines.
but talking to guys out in the hunt area, I frequently saw and heard about guys with scopes that failed to hold zero, I constantly ran into guys that could not hit what they were shooting at, and I found that the properly cleaned and lightly lubed pump action WAS faster and easier to use,and lighter in weight than the bolt guns, some of my friends had, and those 760 30/06 rifles were less likely to have problems.

I was really lucky when I started hunting elk to have several very experienced mentors , and while being young and having read a ton of elk hunting articles I tended to think some of their advice was a bit behind the times, the longer I hunted the more I saw the wisdom of the choices they made, in both equipment and hunting methods.
now I got invited to go on my first out of state elk hunt when I was about 18, and that previous summer Id spent nearly every weekend at the range, most of my mentors had and used Remington 760 30/06 rifles with either peep sites or 4x scopes with receiver peep sites as a back-up and when I asked why I was told that the area we would be hunting in was rather steep rolling timber slopes, ranges would seldom exceed 200 yards and to buy and use peters 220 grain soft point ammo sighted in to hit 3" above the point of aim at 100 yards.
sighting in that way put the bullets dead on at 200 yards.
these rifles were fairly light weight, and rarely had any problem maintaining zero, and trust me rifles get dropped, guys slip and fall and scopes rarely held up in those days many fogged or broke, so use of peep receiver sites made sense.
every year I went with the group several members took elk, and that was off public hunting areas, I had looked into published statistics and most guys averaged about a 18%-25% success , most of our trips we were getting closer to a 45%-50% success ratio, and it eventually dawned on me why, we were hunting as a TEAM, and having rifles that were very dependable, that offered fast repeat fire capability and common ammo helped results, but the main thing was that as a group we planed both where and how we would hunt each drainage, each day, and we never made the mistake of just repeatedly hunting the same drainage day after day, each night we discussed what we had seen, and got out topo maps and moved to a new area if we were not seeing lots of fresh elk sign, and at least some elk.
we would get up pre-dawn, and drop two guy teams off about a 1/2-3/4 mile apart,so each two man team, would enter a drainage and push game around so each hunter effectively raised the odds the others might see game.
we rarely shot huge bulls but we did usually have many guys fill tags with legal elk.(remember this was all public hunting areas)
it was common to hear a couple very quick shots in rapid succession, and later in the day find out one of our group had an elk down.
I just knew that a WEATHERBY magnum would help increase, my chances of getting an elk,so I purchased a 340 weatherby after pouring over ballistic chart, info, and while its been an excellent and effective rifle,but its long, fairly heavy and slightly slower to use than the remington 760/7600 and its been decades since Ive shot an elk past 300 yards, and while it does seem to drop game faster those old 30/06 rifles killed game just as effectively, with a single well placed shot, and with less recoil, cost and with less concern about getting scratched or dropped.
I sight all my big game rifles in so you aim at the yellow dot and the bullet impacts cover the red dot

anytime you feel youve become a great shot, try to place two rapid shots in a 2" dot from a rapidly acquired field position, after walking the 100 yards back to your shooting location from the target after a brisk walk in under 10 seconds, from 100 yards
Ive done it occasionally tried it hundreds of times, it takes constant repetition to do well.

related info

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-looking-for-in-an-elk-rifle.2368/#post-71347

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...cks-browning-375-h-h-a-bolt.11803/#post-67646

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/working-a-bolt-action-rifle.15007/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-340-wheatherby-and-375-h-h.12979/#post-67520

grumpyvette · Dec 10, 2012

having a back-up rifle and friends on a out of state trip is a good idea. we try to have two trucks make the trip each year, with 2-3 guys in each truck so we have options if someone breaks down. and the ability to not get stranded and carry more gear.
we normally have 4-6 guys in our elk hunting camp, theres about 15 guys that generally hang around and B.S. about elk hunts as a loose group of friends, and we know each other from seeing each other consistently at the range,or having made the trip out west a couple times, a few members, of the group, come and go over the years , but most years about 4-6 guys have the time and finances to make the trip, most of us drive out every year,from Florida. for decades I had a marlin 45/70 or a remingtom 7600 30/06, and later in 35 whelen, that I left with the one guy in our elk hunting group,who lives in Colorado, that he brings out as the camp back-up rifle. over 42 plus years those two rifles have saved many hunts and probably shot more deer and elk than many of the primary rifles used in camp.
Ive had many guys find scopes fog, mounts come loose, parts break, ammo gets lost etc. having a back-up plans a great idea, its saved many hunts and Ive noticed several guys who got their elk using those rifles went and purchased similar rifles

grumpyvette · Feb 18, 2013

I was at the range recently , I was there sighting in my 450 marlin caliber BLR with a 4X scope Id recently mounted, on that rifle and a younger guy (about 25 or so) stood there watching me and after a few shots he asked me what caliber the rifle was and what I hunted with it?,
I find many guys just read a few magazine articles before deciding on the rifle they buy,or buy something similar to their friends rifles, and while its rather difficult to find a rifle thats totally useless on elk there are some far better choices.
he wanted to know if I thought that the 450 marlin BLR as a really good choice as he was planing on going on his first elk hunt with a few friends.
but he was going to fly out to meet them, and had no one locally he knew who had ever hunted out west!
well, I happened to have a few pictures from several past ELK hunts in the cars trunk which I got, out and showed him, as he seemed rather interested.
then I asked where he planed to hunt and found out it was in OREGON for coastal Roosevelt elk .
I pointed out that the area your hunting in, the terrain and distances your likely hunting in, vary a good deal, and pointed out he should probably take,what he owned now, or ask his friends if he could borrow a rifle in a more versatile caliber like a 270 win or 30/06 or 300 mag on his first few hunts until he finds out if hes really into ELK hunting and fully understands the costs and effort involved, and only after having at least two to three hunts should he invest in a rifle and scope that could easily cost $800-$1600 dependent on choices he made, and that there was no reason a (plain jane) 30/06 or 270 win could not be a good choice.
Now Ive found the 375 H&H and 35 whelen, 358 win, 30/06, 340 wby and a few other calibers Ive used , seem to suit the area I hunt, and my needs just fine, as shots over 250 yards are rather rare, but as Ive said before the caliber and the rifle you select is of less importance to success than your skill as a hunter and your willingness to work with the limitations your choice might require, and Im sure he will get a much better grasp on the area and whats required after making a few trips to different areas.
I can,t imagine hunting elk where a 30/06 or 35 whelen would not allow you to kill elk, but experience and personal taste in firearms vary a good deal.
picking the best elk hunting rifles a bit like picking a wife in that you sure don,t want to base the decision totally on first impressions

heres a few examples of what guys in our group did, as youll see theres a wide variation and darn near any caliber works but most guys seen to find the 30 or larger caliber rifles are the favorites
Jacks used a 308 win, 375 H&H and a 458 win, almost randomly over the years , its never seemed to mater, hes killed with all of them.
FRANK, had a Winchester feather weight model 70, in 30/06 and went and bought a Ruger M77 in caliber 338 win and shortly went back to his Winchester.
Mike L bought a remington 7600 in 308 and upgraded to a remington 7600 in 35 whelen and stuck with the whelen
SAL, started with a SAKO 30/06 and had a custom 284 win case /.338 bore wildcat custom rifle made
Al had a 303 brit and swapped to a 257 roberts, then a 358 winBLR
Ron started with a 358 win BLR and while he eventually purchased a 338 win bolt gun, he continued to used the 358 win BLR until he died
I started with a 760 rem 30/06, swapped to a 340 wby and have recently used a 375 H&H and 450 marlin, and 7600 rem 35 whelen, and used other calibers a few times
DANNY, started with a marlin 45/70 and has stuck with that for 30 plus years
ED started with a 270 win and eventually purchased a 7600 in 35 whelen
MIKE W started with a 300 win mag, bought a 7mm rem mag but has hunted with a 7600 rem 35 whelen for the last 7 years.

grumpyvette · Mar 16, 2015

I would not get all that concerned with the caliber used, for deer hunting if the area you hunt is basically subject to shorter range shots ,where most shots will be under 100 yards (and a great many are)If you like a rifle and its accurate, and feels good in your hands, its almost a sure deal it will work out fine for white tail deer.!
I try almost all my new rifles out on the local white tail, as were allowed, a deer a day in many areas,here in florida,and the seasons a couple months long if you add up archery,front loader and rifle seasons,, now I like venison, if the freezer gets a bit empty, Ive used a 44 mag with 310 grain lee cast bullets ,a 257 roberts, with 100 grain speer and hornady bullets,a 257 wby with 120 grain Remington bullets, a 270 win, with 150 speer, and hornady bullets , a 30/06 with 200 grain speer bullets,and 180 grain hornadys a 358 win with 250 speer bullets,a 375 H&H with 235 grain and 270 grain, jacketed bullets, a 45/70 with hard cast,and 405 remington,soft points, a 458 win with 450 grain hard cast, a 62 caliber round ball from a muzzle loader, and a 32" 700 grain ,arrow with a twin blade MUZZY broad head from my 84lb 32" draw compound bow.
yes I find some are better than others and a 270 win or a 30/06 will almost never be a bad choice.

so , my conclusion, is that what you use is almost meaningless,IF you can shoot it accurately and know the games anatomy, simply because they ALL WORKED JUST FINE.
YEAH, lately I grab my 44 mag marlin or my 358 win BLR for most whitetail hunts, but I have little doubt that you could use something like a 223 rem if you could place shots well (many of my friends do that regularly) keep in mind ranges tend to be shorter than you might think, in 45 plus years of hunting deer and elk Id say the vast majority of shots were well under 150 yards, and shots under 50 yards are very common.
one of my hunting buddies, (AL) who has been rather successful had a 303 enfield jungle carbine for several decades.

He had used that carbine for many years to hunt deer very successfully, he bragged for years how his old 303 smacked the CRAP, out of our Florida deer that rarely go more than 120lbs.
now keep in mind, the ranges where he hunts seldom exceed 40 yards and 50 yards is a rare long shot, most shots are taken at under 40 yards , in very thick brush. hes killed dozens of deer with that 303,jungle carbine for several decades ,but he had never been to an actual rifle range, he had always set up a beer or coke can on a dirt embankment, backed off about 20-to-25 paces and tried a shot from about 35-40 yards and having hit the coke can, felt 100% sure the rifle was still correctly sighted in, like it had been for years, he had me load the ammo to match factory velocity's ,
http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... spx?id=107 with these 180 grain soft points, http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... fle&Source
over 45 grains of WW760,In my enfield it shot 2.5" 100 yard groups with iron sites off the bench,
but I totally ruined his confidence in that rifle when I made the bad mistake of taking him to a local range, for thirty years or more he had simply placed an old bottle or can on a hillside, backed off 30 or so long paces and fired at the target, with a high probability of a hit! occasionally he needed two shots to hit the beer can, but that was rare.....well I took him to the range and all his 50 yard targets had nice reasonably tight groups using the issue iron sights that measured about 3" in spread,the problem was most of the holes in the paper were key-holed, or profiles of the bullets ,it was obvious some, even most, bullets went thru at an angle or even side ways, he was very upset.....we pointed out that he had been very successful with the gun, even if it did tend to allow the bullets to tumble, end over end which the paper target clearly showed..
so far hes not been able to locate a replacement 303 British, caliber jungle carbine barrel for his carbine, and careful inspection shows the rifling is all but worn away, in fact it is so shallow, and the bores so eroded, its basically useless!
improper cleaning,improper storage,general abuse, improper solvents and corrosive primer ammo use by previous owners, long before he bought the rifle at a yard sake 30 plus years ago, sure didn,t help either.
so again Id say what you use on white tail deer is not as important as your ability to place shots consistently on the intended target

grumpyvette · Apr 7, 2015

[quote"ALLEN"] my neighbor has been hunting deer for a few years and just dot a great deal at bass pro on a new 243 Winchester, I asked him what he intended to use it on, as he already owns a nice 270 win, he stated he was thinking of practicing so he could specialize in HEAD SHOTS on ELK because hes rather recoil sensitive and would prefer not to have to think about the rifle recoil and he has plans to hunt elk out west next year"[/quote]

"only head shots" that sounds like a great way to get run out of any guides camp..just mention that to the guide and watch his expression change when hes confronted with a novice elk hunter that thinks head shots will be a hell of a good way to collect an elk?
THANKS I NEEDED THAT, I laughed out loud just thinking about that.and the wife asked what was so darn funny?

let me explain a bit here,I'm not suggesting it can,t be done!
BUT
Ive been hunting elk for 45 plus years and in that time I've spent a great deal of that time both at the range and teaching many members of our little group to shoot from rapidly acquired field positions. when your dealing with reality youll find that the VAST MAJORITY of hunters Ive shot at the rage with,and even rather experienced hunters,who are considered great shots, have a GREAT DEAL of trouble placing a shot on the exact intended point of impact even out at the average ranges that are in my experience only 120-130 yards, heart beat adrenalin and at least a bit of "BUCK FEVER" tends to enter the equation.
think IM wrong, put a 2.5" diam. orange dot on a dead tree next hunting trip, pace off 100 long strides, at a brisk walking pace, turn and fire,from your choice of position within 5-7 seconds, odds are very good that dots still in perfect shape simply because when the average guys breathing hard and hes excited he has a very difficult time placing shots

precisely,
yeah! I know every person you might know can place three rapid shots in a quarter size orange dot at the range at 100 yards ,FROM THE BENCH REST!
Id bet a great deal of money that if you jog 100 yard and fire a shot at a 2" dot from a quickly acquired, sitting or standing position within 5-7 seconds, with the rifle you hunt with, that orange dot escapes damage more often than not, when you try a heart / lung shot if your off by 4"-6" in any direction it will still result in a very dead elk,Ive taught a good many hunters to shoot from field positions and even after decades of practice , having the skill too place two rapid shots into a 3" orange dot at a 100 yards is better results than average.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/378weatherby.htm

http://www.realguns.com/loads/375.htm

http://www.realguns.com/articles/633.htm

while head shots properly placed will work, Id bet less than 10% of the guys I know could consistently pull that off even if limited to 130 yards and I don,t know a single person with experience that would attempt it, given the option of a heart/lung shot

Grumpy · Jan 25, 2018

Grumpy I just purchased a used but excellent condition browning 308 lever action rifle,
and I've decided I'd like to try deer hunting , obviously I'm new too this and could use a few tips, on the additional equipment / accessories I'll need?

if you can find an experienced mentor, it will help immensely,youll learn much faster with an experienced partner
get a copy of your states hunting regulations and read them carefully,
and spend time getting into good physical condition,
obviously you,ll need a licence and maybe permits,
you have to remain warm, dry and reasonably comfortable, too spend days covering a lot of terrain, which is almost always required to be consistently successful, you also must have the experience to be able to rapidly and accurately place your shot into the games vitals from a rapidly acquired field position.
so practicing from feild positions is mandatory as are use of decent optics
(RIFLE SCOPE/BINOCULARS)
Id start by finding, joining and passing a local hunter safety course and getting a copy of your states hunting regulations.
(post what city and state your in and maybe the local guys can point you in the right direction)
if you were to go to a local outdoor rifle range, and spend some time at a couple gun-shops getting to know some of the clerks and customers it may help, but the best thing you could do is both read a great deal on the subject and find an older experienced mentor.
buy and read all your state regulations and get subscriptions to hunting magazines
go to the local library and check out books by WOOTERS, O,connor, townson whelen, Mark & Terry Drury.
if you spend time at any local outdoor 100 yard or longer rifle range, you can rather easily strike up a conversation with the guys you observe that seem to be the type of people you see, and start up a conversation with,that you personally,
feel comfortable talking to about hunting and rifles, and maybe past hunting trips, once you get to know them better you might broach the subject of meeting regularly at the range and possibly going on local hunts, well before you actually start plans for a much more extensive time and cash intensive, out of state big game hunting trip, where you might be spending a good deal of time together, or dependent on some guy you don,t really know that well.
youll certainly want too weed out the guys that are not willing to help set up camp, back pack out each others game, and share expenses way before you make an expensive out of state big game hunt together.
finding a hunting partner is a time intensive process and your not going to find the ideal partner easily, my last hunting partner I had for 30 plus years had a wife that was a total bitch, she saw hunting trips as a plot for him to get out from under her thumb/control for 10 days a year (SO DID HE TO TELL THE TRUTH)
but he would pull his weight, and we would both share all work and expenses equally.
Yes we all make mistakes and your sure to find guys that talk a great game but won,t lift a finger to help around camp or help dress out or pack out your elk yet expect you to help with transport and care of theres, or agree to share gas and other expenses equally but once on the trip don,t do crap.
youll also want to get a detailed written list of what is expected in shared expenses, chores, and an agreement that any truck you rent gets fully insured or break-downs on the trip expenses will be equally shared.
stupid disagreements can cause hard feelings, I remember on one trip we got a damaged tire and one of the five guys on the trip did not want to chip in on the cost of the new tire (because he was not driving when it happened) obviously that was the last trip he was allowed on in our club
a few topo maps of the area you intend to hunt helps.
good comfortable boots with decent tread, are a huge help,
remember you could get hurt, lost , or just find your out well past dark or caught in a major weather event.
so youll want to be able too take care of yourself for at least 24-48 hours
having TOTAL confidence in the rifle and cartridge you use is a HUGE factor in making you both enjoy and not worry about your potential success.
I have guys bring up questions , concerning the suitability , range limitations and other factors,that many guys bring up concerning the rifles they select to hunt with,
its been my experience that most of the guys who might stay up nights worrying about their rifle or cartridges potential ability to kill at extended ranges ,
or might worry about the rifle they use, suitability, lack of rapid repeat fire potential, range limitations, or potential lack of lethality,
well, many of the same guys both lack extensive field experience and hands on practice, once you've made a few dozen hunts,
and got in some actual experience,,the concerns over your personal choice in equipment selected seems to fade, or changes get made.
my late hunting partner came to love and depend on a browning BLR in caliber 358 win, for both ELK and mule deer,on several occasions we had new guys in the club ,
ask him if he felt he was at a distinct disadvantage, after all if he sighted the rifle in using the load he came to depend on (44 grains of imr 4064 under a 250 speer bullet)
it was, 3.5" high at 100 yards, dead on at 200 yards and about 10 inches low at 300 yards (certainly a 270 win or 30/06 Springfield, shoots flatter,)
at first that question bothered him a bit, but after hunting for 30 plus years he would just smile,
and point out that he had never once even seen any elk out past about 250 yards, thus the concern over flat trajectory was a non-issue in his experience.
and the lethality of that BLR in his hands was well documented.

If that BLR is in good condition its one of the best quality lever action carbines available
(CONGRATS ON THE FINE FIRST RIFLE)
youll want to carefully sight that rifle in at a local range to hit 2" to 3" high at 100 yards and ID suggest 150 grain-to-165 grain bullets for deer.
I may be wrong, but I've always assumed that most ethical and experienced, hunters will use and exercise,
reasonable judgement, before making a shot and only shoot under conditions they feel confident in making the shot well,
and have a respect for game, and have a solid grasp on their personal limitations.
I have also noticed that a good many people seem to think the rifles recoil level can be objectionable and that it effects their accuracy.
obviously thats a factor each of us has to deal with and tolerance differs wildly.
obviously no one can control others judgment, but felt recoil can be significantly reduced
use of a PAST recoil shoulder pad , a rifle stock recoil pad, and proper use of a sling and bi-pod goes a long way toward reducing the potential problem.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0094310010

HB25CS 25C Model S -13.5-27" Swivel Bipod
no thats not my rifle but its damn near its clone

if your seriously hunting you'll commonly cover a decent amount of distance,in a days hunt.
move slowly try to never have the wind at your back or flowing from you to the direction your trying to go into, try to stay in the shadows of brush to break-up your outline.
carry a back pack with some basics like a 2 ltr plastic bottle of water, toilet paper,
heres a quick memory jog list, for hunt day pack
(remember you might be forced to stay out over night, & weather is unpredictable)
skinning knife
kukri
compact blade sharpener
compass
area topo maps
a dozen 2 gallon zip lock bags for boned venison
canteen
licences
cell phone
several lighters
granola bars
rain poncho
2 gallon zip lock bags
small block & tackle hoist & rope(50 ft parachute cord)
spare ammo
heavy hoodie jacket

on most hunts youll want a day pack,a decent cheap knife,

youll want a wide brim hat

to keep the sun out of your eyes, a cartridge stock sleeve comes in handy and costs less than $10

you simply sight in at 100 yards off the bench on the yellow dot and have all the shots print over the smaller red dot, print the target so you get it sized for 1" squares

are you thinking thru your rifle choice

grumpyvette

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Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.