calculating carburetor size

hy grumpy im building a 383, 10.7:1 . 108 LSA. 600 intake valve lift, dual plane intake, 200 cfm heads, 64 cc, its mainly for street /strip once in a while,
im trying to find out which cfm size of car do i need, theres a cfm calculator according to the calculator i need a 610 cfm....but it sounds too small for what i need, how do i figure in my engine needs to determine the cfm requirements, thanks
 
heres a calculator you can you if you want a fast answer
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccarb.htm
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcdchg.htm
vacuum secondary holley carburetors are fairly easy to tune correctly and basically self adjust the required air flow rates once being tuned to close to the correct settings ,a 750cfm HOLLEY vacuum secondary carburetor like this one linked below is what Ive found to work well in most similar 383-406 sbc applications
if you prefer an electrical choke theres a very similar version available.
down leg, or annular style booster tend to be much faster and more responsive to small air flow rate changes, you can use all the calculators you want and get close but the cam timing ,compression ratio, exhaust scavenging efficiency, intake design all effect the results, hook up a vacuum gauge to the carburetor plenum and go for a full throttle run, the plenum vacuum reading should drop to at least 3 psi or lower vacuum reading at wide open throttle in top gear if the carburetors not overly restrictive, if the vacuum reading stays over 3 psi Id sure try a larger carburetor.
keep in mind that the fuel air ratio will need to change with the rpms and load on the engine, max mileage is generally found near 15:1 while max torque is generally reach at ratios closer to 12.5:1 on the fuel air ratio, youll generally set the engine up to run a bit lean under 3000rpm to enhance average mileage and tune it to transition to significantly richer under higher rpms and max loads, to reduce the tendency to get into detonation, and over heating under load.
Stoich.gif

air-fuel-ratioa.jpg

you can get into the correct ball park range , for a high performance 4 barrel carburetor selection, by simply multiplying your engine displacement in cubic inches by 2.09, IE if you multiply 383 x 2.09=800 cfm
or 2.09x 454=950cfm.this may not be ideal in all applications but it will get you close if you want muscle car as a a weekend toy to race occasionally and drive on the street, and your more concerned with maximizing power than mileage


READ THESE LINKS CAREFULLY

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5229

http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/CarbCFMCalc.html

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-3310c/overview/

http://static.summitracing.com/global/i ... 9934-3.pdf

HLY-0-3310C_XG.jpg



RELATED INFO, read thru the links it will prove to be useful
yeah!
I know many of you would rather be boiled in oil that read links,
well for those that rather learn, heres some related info

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Grumpy, I've found that generally on most of the mild small blocks i deal with (302-383cid and under 11:1 compression) im not usually shifting past 6k or 6500 rpm, and ive just grown to prefer the response and snappiness (if thats a word) i get from a 650. ive had cars come through with the owners complaining of the motors being lazy, well 9 times out of ten i find an oversized vacuum secondary carb. there was a point before this LS swap revolution when everything was a small block with vortecs that i was prescribing a 650 double pumper at least twice a month to somebody because they all think they needed these massive carbs. maybe my foot just likes the positive feel of cracking the secondaries open but i find the whole experience more fun and the customers seem to agree.

first time i experimented with this theory was on a 1970 lt-1 corvette with its factory 770cfm spread bore it was no slouch let me tell you, but an intake swap and a used 650 that was a hand me down jetted appropriately and the car blows the 275/60/15's in any gear at the blip of the throttle. that motor rev's higher than most of the combinations ive run since or helped friends with but i figured from there if that 350cid screamer isnt suffocated by a 650, then i havent found the need for a bigger carb on other motors.

i know i glazed over it once or twice n that statement but for the benefit of elisalvador, whatever carb configuration you throw on there needs to be tuned, not just to work at idle in drive either, jet sizing, power valve sizing, all come into play to make your carb work for you.

if you never really messed with a carb on that level this handbook helped me out many years ago

http://www.amazon.com/Holly-Carburetor- ... carburetor

http://gottafishcarburetors.com/CFM Formula.html

http://wallaceracing.com/intakecfm.php

this book has some good ideas for jetting and general performane tricks but realize that carbs are greatly affected by altitude and barometric pressure moreso than efi is.

http://www.amazon.com/Vizards-Modify-Ho ... carburetor
 
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In my experience your intake manifold selected , and your ability to tune correctly ,tends to have a greater effect on results than the difference between selection of a 650cfm or a 750cfm rated Holley carburetor. and while Id have no problem with using either one , I do see your point , that the slightly smaller cfm rated carburetor tends to have very slightly higher air speeds at lower rpms thru the carbs primary venturies, which of course means a bit faster response to fuel ratio changes that might be required, as fuel flow is driven by air flow rates,especially if the cars rarely used to produce peak power , but mostly used well below peak power rpm ranges.
thats a bit like discussing the advantages of using a tri-power or properly tuned dual quad induction, either type of induction can, if the guy doing the tuning has the required experience, provide both more power and quicker more uniform response too changes in the throttle position, but Id bet 70% plus or more of the people doing the carburetor tuning can,t make a multi carburetor induction even equal; what a properly tuned single 4 barrel carburetor will do.
now thats not to say the multi carburetor induction is inferior only that it takes a good deal more experience to pull the last bits of potential power from the set up that its capable of producing

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=264&p=904&hilit=+tri+barrel+power+three#p904

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=444

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5704&p=17763&hilit=deuces#p17763

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5175&p=15029&hilit=+tri+barrel+power+three#p15029

http://www.ehow.com/how_7570346_calcula ... r-cfm.html

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3916&p=10420&hilit=+tri+barrel+power+three#p10420

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=409&p=503&hilit=+tri+barrel+power+three#p503
 

Thanks Phil and Grumpy!

Nice discussion between two people speaking from experience.

 
just opened all those links and gonna read on now grumpy, but before i do a note about multi carb setups. having spent the better part of my young adulthood in the army i became very familiar with reading and following instructions to the letter, i think that gave me the patience and power to properly setup the multi sidedrafts ive run in the past on my naturally aspirated datsuns. ive never set up a dual quad v8 or a triple deuce or anything like that but i would have to agree with you from the datsun world theres a select few people who have the patience to do things step by step the right way and few people who look at the "complications" to use a jewelry term in making a multi carb setup work and just get intimidated and quit.

or youve got the guys who force their way through it, are lucky enough to get the car running at all, and count that as a victory leaving many a precious horsepower on the table!
 
The real limitation is the design of a carburator Booster & the Emulsion cicicuits.
No such thing as too big of a Carburator.
 
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... 0_cfm.html
if you read thru the link above, very carefully youll find the 750cfm -to 830cfm carbs made the best average power, on that 383 sbc, so if we average the results lets say an 800cfm might have been near ideal.
now you might think.... ok,
800cfm/383 cubic inches =2.09 cfm per cubic inch of displacement,
so logically a 454 big block x 2.09=948cfm.....,
or a 327 x 2.09= 683 cfm,
but the truth here is that a skilled and experienced engine tuner can get a 950cfm or a 750cfm carb to work remarkably well on either the 383 0r 454 engine.
that 2.09 cfm per cubic inch of engine displacement will get you "in the ball park" but its your ability to tune the carburetor to match the application , far more than the rated carb size thats much more critical to matching the carb to the engine.

http://www.ehow.com/how_7570346_calcula ... r-cfm.html
 
i see.... if thats the case , what rates the carburetor cfm ? is it the size of the carburetor bores? the biger the bores in carb the more cfm can go through it ? but its up to the ability of the tunner to make it work according to his requirements right?
 
carbs are flow rated on a flow bench,
C&S said:
Carburetor Air Flow Ratings:
What Do They Really Mean?

RATINGS ARE CONSTANTLY QUOTED AND COMPARED, BUT ARE ACTUALLY ONE OF THE LEAST UNDERSTOOD AND MOST CONFUSING AREAS OF RACING DESIGN.

. The basis for most cubic feet per minute (C.F.M.) air flow ratings such as those used by Holley and other carburetor manufacturers was established long ago by the Society of Automotive Engineers (S.A.E.).

Standard test vacuum was 1-1/2 inches of mercury for 4 barrel carburetors and 3 inches of mercury “Vacuum” for 1 barrel and 2 barrel carburetors. This was reasonable as it was about what a passenger car would develop. Of course, for the numbers to mean anything, tests would have to be run at a certain temperature and barometric pressure. Or be corrected to standard temperature and pressure. If not otherwise stated, ratings in cubic feet per minute are at standard temperature and pressure.

This system is confusing for racing applications for several reasons. Some racing engines actually develop much more or less vacuum than these ratings, so are difficult to compare. For example, a Nascar 390, 4 barrel equipped car might have 3 times the 1-1/2 inches of mercury standard or a very large 2 barrel equipped car might have only 1-1/2 inches of mercury vacuum.

Even more confusing is the fact that most flow benches in the racing industry measure dry air at low pressure drops, commonly 10 inches of water column (W.C.), one bore or venturi at a time. This result is multiplied by a factor to arrive at what that bore would flow at a higher vacuum (i.e. 1-1/2 or 3 inches of mercury), then that figure is multiplied (by four, in the case of a 4 barrel carburetor) to get the C.F.M. rating. This rating is usually much higher than it actually is.
Besides previously mentioned airflow calculations, multiplying, reading and measuring errors, four bores will not flow four times what one bore will flow when they are close together, as in a 4 barrel carburetor. The bores are actually “fighting” for the same air. Another factor is no provision is made for fuel flow. The actual air flow will be 8% to 16% less “wet” than dry flow rating. Two reasons for this are, fuel takes up space so it uses up space for air. The second reason is fuel has more mass than air so “Hollow Cone” of vaporized fuel slows down flow velocity. This can be easily observed on large wet flow benches such as the custom C&S facility (shown in photo) which will flow wet or dry. Alcohol carbs will lose more air flow than gas simply because there is more fuel to handle.

In order to properly specify or compare carburetors much more must be known than simply a number. Not to mention the dishonest practice of inflating ratings to increase sales.

Another common pitfall is using widely published carburetor size selector charts that use parameters such as engine size, lowest RPM at wide open throttle etc. Drawing a line across the selector indicates maximum recommended carburetor size. These calculations are for Street Cars. If used for racing, the engine would be expected to develop 1-1/2 inches of mercury vacuum at wide open throttle (W.O.T.) unless prohibited by rules, using a larger carburetor will result in much improved racing performance.

Engines that need a broad RPM range such as Road Racing or Circle Track currently work best generating about .8 to 1 inch of mercury. Heavy drag cars will work at .6 to 1 inch depending on weight to horsepower ratio. Some light drag cars such as Pro Stock and Dragsters have C&S carburetors so large they generate only .1 to .2 inches of mercury vacuum and work very well at the high RPM narrow RPM range for these cars.

In conclusion, the general trend is larger and larger carburetors for every application. The carburetor that wouldn’t work several years ago for a certain application wasn’t too big, it just wasn’t good enough!

The C&S technical line is available to consult on your application free of charge. Call Mon. thru Fri., 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. at (636) 723-4996.


http://www.rasoenterprises.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=49

http://www.candsspecialties.com/ratings.html

http://www.jetsrus.com/FAQs/FAQ_rejetti ... _carb.html

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I recall talking to Brad Urban a few times on the phone. Long conversations.
Settled on Bo Laws.
I like Florida people.
Know thier stuff. Treat you right too.
I Will Spend $$$$ with right people.

BR
 
elisalvador said:
grumpy i apreciate you taking your time to answear my question and supplying good info
i found this link,,, im having hard time following the math ,,, would u take a peek and let me know what you think ?
http://www.hipermath.com/engines/carburetor_cfm
thanks
according to the math for a 383 cfm is 14,109.54 ??? have you heard about this


using their highlighted math at the bottom i get 831.xx cfm

i did the bottom formula first for rpm based on mass and plugged that number into the equation above it for cfm.
 
(cibc inch x max rpm) / 3456 * (vol.eff. about 0.9)
I think you can replace the vol,eff with pressure ratio if your running turbo/blower..
so for a 383 that has a redline of 6000 rpm 600-650 cfm seem good, if your looking for street its correct, get bigger for racing. 700-750cfm for racing.
 
lets look at a few things being ignored in the math up to now simply because ALL the formulas are basically IGNORING reality , and how an engine actually functions and most of those calculations are at best, only ROUGH GUIDE LINES at best!

first there seldom a mention of PLENUM Volume, intake runner length or cross sectional area, header primary length and exhaust scavenging and how both compression and cam lift and duration and LSA will effect the cylinder scavenging, and it should be rather obvious that lets say a 383sbc with a dual plane intake has what is effectively only one venturie from the primary and one secondary feeding 4 cylinders, while a SINGLE PLANE INTAKE has all four CARB venturies feeding a single common plenum.
a correctly set up header and intake runner config, well matched to a cam lobe designed to maximize flow, rates during the cam timing,over lap period, that can easily cause 105-20% or the intake runner charge to be rammed into and thru the cylinder
yes I know you probably don,t want a bunch of math and tech info, but if you really want to know how and why things work take the time to read thru the links and sub links .it basically comes down to selecting an intake that will allow you to maximize cylinder fill efficiency in the rpm range you use most of the time.
for what your describing a good performance dual plane is far more likely to provide the best results.
keep in mind, your cylinder head cross sectional area, intake runner length, cam timing, valve lift, exhaust scavenging efficiency,drive train gearing, intended operational rpm range, your intended transmission,shift points, tire diameter, car weight, fuel octane, and your engines compression ratio and displacement all effect your selection. the goal is to keep air flow rates high, to maximize the inertial ram effect and maximize volumetric efficiency, without having the runner cross sectional area,so small, it will become restrictive in the upper rpm range.

intakedual.jpg


EDL-7501.jpg

DUAL PLANE INTAKES USUALLY HAVE A DUAL AND SMALLER TWIN, EFFECTIVE PLENUM, VOLUME, GENERALLY GOOD INDIVIDUAL RUNNER FLOW RATES AND USUALLY A CURVED RATHER IN-DIRECT SHOT AT INTAKE PORT, BUT BETTER LOW AND MID RPM VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY DUE TO HIGHER AVERAGE AIR FLOW SPPED
intakesingle.jpg

hly-300-110.jpg

SINGLE PLANE INTAKES USUALLY HAVE A LARGER EFFECTIVE PLENUM, VOLUME, GENERALLY BETTER INDIVIDUAL RUNNER FLOW RATES AND USUALLY A SEMI-DIRECT SHOT AT INTAKE PORT, ALLOWING BETTER UPPER RPM CYLINDER FILL RATES, BUT PORT CROSS SECTIONAL AREA,EXHAUST SCAVENGING,DISPLACEMENT, AND CAM TIMING HAVE A HUGE EFFECT ON THE INTAKE EFFICIENCY

next your not dealing with a set constant effective engine displacement, simply because the valves open and close with the piston location in the cylinders far different than the assumed top and bottom dead center locations, the inertial energy changes in both the exhaust scavenging in the headers and intake runners as the rpms change which has a huge effect on the cylinder scavenging efficiency.

the truth is that theres dozens of factors in play,that can easily be changed in dozens of ways, and each change can effect the results you get, its the job of an experienced tuner to observe the results and tweak the combo to get the desired results and within , reasonable limits a change in carb flow capacity can easily be compensated for by the guy tuning the combo
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USE THE CALCULATORS to match port size to intended rpm levels... but keep in mind valve lift and port flow limitations

http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/ca-calc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/area-under-curve.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php

The following tables illustrate how variations in lobe separation angle and cam
timing will effect the behavior of the engine in which the camshaft is installed.

YOU REALLY NEED TO READ THRU THESE LINKS
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