ccing my heads

HELP
I hope some can help me with a prob I am having.
I started to cc my heads so i check all and found that they need to be ground. I have one at 64.3 so I started grinding one of them to be at 64.3 or there abouts. I ground a lot off and got a reading of 62 so I ground more off and came up with the same reading 62. I did that three times and still got a reading of 62.
HELP
What am I doing wrong.
 

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
I.ll start by suggesting you read through this thread linked info posted below, first
and yes you did the correct thing by stopping and asking questions .
at the first hint of trouble rather than potentially doing more damage,
or getting useless , non-repeatable reference data


READ THESE LINKS

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-piston-dome-or-port-volume.2077/#post-60554

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-head-porting-tools-abrasives-sources.10683/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ccing-my-heads.14187/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ccing-my-heads.14187/#post-71989

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-piston-dome-or-port-volume.2077/#post-60554

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...olishing-combustion-chambers.2630/#post-50238

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/aluminum-heads-polishing-and-porosity.14689/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0209-chevy-gm-cylinder-heads/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ead-l98-corvette-valve-spring-question.14655/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/porting-can-help.462/

youll need a very consistent and accurate burret
(ideally holding a good deal more volume than the area being measured)
if your measuring a 62 cc combustion chamber you'll ideally start with it dry and sealed off and use a 100cc-250cc burret,obviously if you grind away surface area in the combustion chamber it should increase the volume in that area allowing the fluid your using to measure to occupy more volume,consistency and repeat ability are critical to accurate measurments
I obviously don,t know what measuring tools your using,
so posting clear pictures and more details would be very helpful,

Ideally you,ll fill your burret, thats set up to accurately measure cc's, it dispenses, too lets say 100 cc,and it helps to have a good stable burret stand to hold the burret vertically
(look at this picture)

measuring4.jpg


I'd point out that you,ll need accurate measuring tools for the volume of the fluid that your using to accurately fill the space or volume that that fluid is too fill.
the clear glass or lexan plate must be sealed to the head surface with a very thin layer of clear grease like Vaseline, to prevent leaks of the measuring fluid and the entrance hole you use too fill the area measured must be very close to level with that fill hole being located at the very upper edge of that area being filled and measured.
CCING heads is a process where your attempting to measure the volume or three dimensional volume of the port or combustion chamber ETC. your trying too verify to see if its volume is equal too or lessor or greater than the other similar volumes, in an attempt to equalize all of them to generally match , by removing metal from smaller combustion chambers so that they will all match the largest original combustion chamber in most cases.
(you can,t logically make changes until you carefully verify all 8 combustion chambers and label each and accurately measure and verify each one.)
ChamberCCs01.jpg

measuring6.jpg

burretgh1.jpg

peanutpl2.jpg


before you remove any volume or change any combustion chamber you must seal the valves and spark plug threads with a sealant along the valve seat , and valve bevel edges, and spark plug threads, so no measuring fluid can seep out making the measurements less accurate or worthless.

I HOPE SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE READING THIS THREAD WITH EXPERIENCE MIGHT ADD THEIR VIEWS AND SUGGESTIONS
 
Last edited:
Thanks for getting back
I have done everything you have said. The burret is a 100 cc. and I have done everything you have said and done here. That is why I,m writing. There is something wrong. Like I said in the beginning I keep coming up with 62cc after I did the grinding.
 

Indycars

Administrator
Staff member
Are you working with aluminum or cast iron heads? What are using for a grinder and cutter? Do
you look up inside both ports to make sure there is NO leak around the valves?

To remove just 1 cc is a lot of grinding. I didn't think I was ever going to get there and I had 1.6cc to
get from the smallest chamber to the largest. And I was working with aluminum and a carbide cutter.

I hope you are not just grinding in a small area, but spreading it out. Some clear photos would be
very helpful.

Most of all .... take a step back and take a deep breath. We can figure this out!
 

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
lets start with the basics, if the clear sealing over plate is firmly sealed over the combustion chamber and the valves and plug threads are sealed and the combustion chamber volume can be carefully measured ,
if the measuring fluid is carefully dispensed into that finite volume it must have a set finite volume,
as most common liquids can not be compressed.
now lets say you measured as stated 62cc.
if you ground away from the combustion chamber roof or wall areas,
any significant material removed adds additional potential volume.
lets start with a basic test,
of how accurately the chamber volume is being measured,
you may simply not be removing as much material as you think you have so its not significantly changed the combustion chamber volume a great deal.?

carefully measure the combustion chamber one more time then remove the fluid,
then back out the existing spark plug, two full revolutions and re-measure the combustion chamber volume.
the threaded portion of the spark plug is an easily measured diameter,
and the difference in its depth extending into the combustion chamber is also rather easily measured
lets assume here the threads are 1/2" and the depth
and its now recessed is .125"
.25 x .25 x 3.147 x .125=about a .0245 cubic inch
simple math shows
thats about a .0245 cubic inch change in volume,
or roughly .4cc
so you can expect to see that change,
if you don,t your obviously measuring incorrectly
http://www.metric-conversions.org/volume/cubic-inches-to-cubic-centimeters.htm
one cubic inch is roughly 16.38706 cubic centimeters
1in³= 16.38706cm³ now a cubic centimeter may not seem like much,
but its about the size of a typical pencil tip eraser,or a couple un-popped popcorn kernels and thats a fairly significant volume if your grinding it with a dremel tool.
plugdepth.jpg

hopefully this little quick test will allow you to track down the problem of accurate measuring
bbccom2.JPG

12cal.jpg



you might be amazed at how much material can be removed ,
too noticeably increase air-flow and un-shroud the valves,
and how little it might effectively change,
the combustion chamber volume and compression.


chamberedge1.jpg

chamberedge2.jpg


I've found BRODIX I.K. heads are very good quality, and decent value per dollar,
for a high performance street/strip style engine
https://craftperformanceengines.com...nder-Heads--brodix_cylinder_heads_sbc_ik.html
brodixik.png


trickflow 230cc makes a good racing sbc head choice
trickflow230.png

https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-3241t001-c03

profiler 210cc is a good compromise race and street strip head
https://www.profilerperformance.com/176-sbc-23-degree-heads.html
176-210cc.png




https://www.summitracing.com/parts/afr-1055/overview/make/chevrolet
http://www.airflowresearch.com/210cc-sbc-race-cylinder-head/
afr210cc.png



related info
USE THE CALCULATORS to match port size to intended rpm levels... but keep in mind valve lift and port flow limitations[/color]
http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/ca-calc.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/area-under-curve.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php


https://www.profilerperformance.com/176-sbc-23-degree-heads.html

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...olishing-combustion-chambers.2630/#post-48319

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-flow-heads-the-best-choice.9415/#post-34274

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...good-street-combo-your-after.5078/#post-14433

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/more-port-flow-related-info.322/#post-722


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ngine-displacement-without-disassembly.16217/
on aluminum head's its almost alway's best to use studs to secure headers when you can,
as a stud has the threads full length engaged and very low stress , and significantly more surface area spreading the load,
than a bolt will ever allow,don,t forget too use anti-seize on the stud threads
shop around, the cost of the studs are not as high if you shop carefully, try a local bolt supply or hardware store.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/header-gaskets.1045/page-2#post-55418
https://www.jegs.com/p/ARP/ARP-Exhaust-Header-Studs/744890/10002/-1
11118322.jpg

https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11118322;jsessionid=GFJnzZ+7+LoV4LCjDOCC8Gb5.b9408a77-0eb9-3dd2-aa63-3c743b855037?r=~|categoryl1:"609389 Fleet 9and Automotive"|~ ~|categoryl2:"609999 Tire 9and Wheel End Products"|~ ~|categoryl3:"609867 Double End Studs"|~





lockn1.jpg


lockn2.jpg

antiseize.jpg

headerstuds.jpg

I would strongly suggest BOTH stainless bolts studs and the use of ANTI SEIZE on the threads
arp-434-1301_w.jpg


studal3.jpg

studal2.jpg

studal1.jpg


119651.png

119651.jpg

119651.jpg
 
Last edited:
I am having a problem uploading picture. I keep getting a error occurred. The uploaded file is too large. I guess I can not show you anything other then the tools I am using.
 

Attachments

  • picture of heads 007.JPG
    picture of heads 007.JPG
    636.1 KB · Views: 2
This is the best that I can give you. I keep getting a error code saying file to large.

I have three more to load up

what you see is what I,m suing to do the job.
 

Attachments

  • picture of heads 007.JPG
    picture of heads 007.JPG
    636.1 KB · Views: 0
I got it. In picture 002 that is the one that is 65cc

In 004 that is the one that I was working on w/62.3cc

In 006 the picture shows what the cc's are and you can see that 004 the work I have done. I stop because it looks like I took a lot but only ended up 62.3

Now where do I go to. Thanks for all the info.
 

Attachments

  • picture of heads 002.JPG
    picture of heads 002.JPG
    777.1 KB · Views: 7
  • picture of heads 004.JPG
    picture of heads 004.JPG
    705.7 KB · Views: 7
  • picture of heads 006.JPG
    picture of heads 006.JPG
    960.2 KB · Views: 7

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
head gaskets are rarely completely round, nore are combustion chambers
you,ll want to place a head gasket you,ll use on the heads and mark the area inside the opening as the only areas you can change,
(notice the gasket fire ring is NOT a perfect circle like many people assume)
ideally you,ll want to un-shroud the valves while opening up the combustion chamber volume,
but not extend the combustion chamber past the front edge of the gasket fire ring,
as that usually causes gasket failure

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ccing-my-heads.14187/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-to-lap-valve-seats.1159/#post-2362

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/iron-vs-aluminum-heads.389/#post-31684

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-piston-dome-or-port-volume.2077/#post-60554

gasketsh.png

you might be amazed at how much material can be removed ,
too noticeably increase air-flow and un-shroud the valves,
and how little it might effectively change,
the combustion chamber volume and compression.

laying a head gasket on the head and use machinist blue dye to show the areas inside the gasket fire-ring
8c3cd11a-b277-4018-b98a-b5648e0314be_1.74e42cf0e55dcba325d8cd403b5783b9.jpeg

http://www.skygeek.com/dymon-8000-s...MI8vPS24jm1gIVBolpCh2pnAoWEAQYAiABEgL2ZPD_BwE

thus the first logical step would be to carefully place a identical head gasket to what you'll use on the engine , properly lined up on the cylinder head and accurately scribe its inside dimensional limits on the cylinder head, a metal scribe , a dremel tool and machinist blue would be helpful here
keep in mind its one of several factors working together, things like getting the quench correct, polishing and un-shrouding the combustion chamber, getting the ignition advance curve and fuel/air ratio correctly matched and taking the time to polish the piston, dome, removing sharp edges from valve clearance notches , and polishing and very slightly rounding sharp edges on the valves, use of the correct spark plug heat range, removing exposed threads in the combustion chamber after you test by inserting a correct spark plug, certainly helps reduce any potential hot spots.
macbl.jpg

chamberedge1.jpg

chamberedge2.jpg




youll want too have a fluid with little or no surface tension ,
rubbing alcohol with food coloring will work.

dyed.jpg

most grocery stores sell food dye
AC134630l.jpg

and rubbing alcohol
( but you might prefer water,
and a drop of dawn dish washing soap,
and food coloring
)
(because alcohol dissolves some plastics (
LIKE THAT BURRET AND COVER PLATE YOU JUST PAID BIG BUCKS FOR!!)
and its very flammable unlike water with food dye)

450.jpg

don,t work near flames or ignition sources alcohol like gas can ignite starting a fire and alcohol flames are difficult to see in bright light, but still very
dangerous

peanutpl2.jpg

for checking valve seal integrity , and combustion chamber volume ,rubbing alcohol with food dye works just fine
ccingh2.jpg

BlackoutSteve posted these pictures
What cylinder head?
With my 4.280" bore and AFR head, I am forced to use a 4.540" bore gasket because the chambers are wide and would otherwise allow the gasket to "hang" in the chamber.

For example..
428gaga.jpg

454gaga.jpg

Ive suggested your average skilled mechanic or hot rod enthusiast,
spend time in doing research in, and then if they choose too,
cleaning up the bowl area under the valves , of casting flash,
and valve seat machining ridges,getting a multi angle valve job,
narrowing the valve guides port matching the heads/intake manifold,
and polishing and ccing the combustion chambers,
you should not be significantly altering or enlarging the ports or runners,
multi angle valve jobs should be left too the pros with the correct machinery,
and precise measuring equipment,
but a home shop can certainly lap valves and clean up the port and bowl area ,
and port match, and blend , polish and cc combustion chambers, etc.


reading links and sub-links generally helps
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-combustion-chambers.2630/page-3#post-77963

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ccing-my-heads.14187/#post-71989

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...needs-clean-up-equalization.12474/#post-62647

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-piston-dome-or-port-volume.2077/#post-61068

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-tools-abrasives-sources.10683/#post-46209

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...lve-seat-angles-and-air-flow.8460/#post-29682

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/multi-angle-valve-job-related.3143/#post-8387

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rocker-push-rod-wear-issues.9815/
 
Last edited:
I want to say Thank You to all that gave me the info I needed.
This site is one of the best around and with a universe of knowledge and with that in mine I donated to you $ 100.00. It was well worth it to me.
 

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
thank you!
the web site financial support is very much appreciated ,
its rare to break even on expenses
 

Indycars

Administrator
Staff member
I want to say Thank You to all that gave me the info I needed.
This site is one of the best around and with a universe of knowledge and with that in mine I donated to you $ 100.00. It was well worth it to me.

Wow...... thanks for that very generous donation!!!

What turned out to be the problem ...... did it just take alot more grinding than you expected?
 
I have not done any more to it yet. Tomorrow will be an other day. I do believe that after looking at all the pictures and reading all the info I should be able to finish the heads. Like I said before there is a lot of info here. I never thought of using a mic to check the dimensions from one opening to another. That is why I see no reason on not being able to finish them. I just need the time to do them. Once again I need to thank all that had something to input. I hope this site never goes down. There are times that I just look thru the site with out signing in. Just to look. Thanks
 

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
thats part of the reason the web site exists....its here hopefully allowing the newer guys to avoid many of the problems ,
that my, friends and I ran into, over the decades in this hobby, and hopefully the web site will help you, avoid the frustration ...
and experiences of several of the older guys ,I used to hang out with, had both good and bad, experiences ,
during 45 plus years of not being able to find a easy to access source of correct related info on how things should be done and
how knowing often,my friends and I ran into scammers at local machine shops,
and speed shops, that deliberately either gave B.S. info or did sub-standard machine work.
In this hobby of building cars and modifying drive trains for increased performance, doing your research into how things should be done correctly, is key!
if you get to know an honest machinist in a local machine shop that will take the time to explain ,
how some machine work is done and why its required you'll be far better off.
youll notice most threads have sub-links they are there to help you find related and useful info,
skip reading the links and you will generally regret it later.


while it might be initially looked at as an inconvenience,
and while it will take some time and effort youll be amazed at how often,
reading the links and sub-links,
in these threads will allow you to avoid making almost all the more common mistakes guys make,
or even in a few documented cases..a few that required true unique ingenuity,too screw it up so badly :D:(:rolleyes:
most of us learn by making mistakes or watching the results of the trial and error process made by others...
the key to success is duplicating the successful, work others have done,and it is based
in understanding exactly why things work ,once you fully understand how and why something works you might be able to improve on its function, or the durability.
and
learning too avoid the failures other people have made,
by understanding, how and why they screwed it up.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-rabbit-hole-with-alice.10933/#post-52567

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/hello-grumpyvette-here.278/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-engine-project-dart-shp.3814/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/matching-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-to-look-for-in-a-good-engine-combo.9930/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/dorian’s-big-block-c3-build.12810/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/383-information-overload.11137/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tweaking-a-350-383.13087/#post-68195

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-383-sbc-combo-planing.12168/#post-58778

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-and-basic-piston-ring-info-youll-need.509/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-68861

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/a-high-torque-406.12184/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...gine-to-match-the-cam-specs.11764/#post-55571
 
Last edited:

Loves302Chevy

"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Very generous Ray. Thanks and keep us posted on your progress.
Remember, scribe the opening of the head gasket on your heads. If you grind the combustion chamber beyond that, you will have a problem.
 
Top