IVE found no reason at all to swap from a 250 grain speer in my 358 win or 35 whelen, or a 250 grain HORNADY in my 338 win or 340 wby.
theres always going to be those guys that want to brag about their equipment, but you can,t really improve on almost a perfect record of one shot kills on ELK and DEER killed over 35 years with those bullets.
If you KNOW your games anatomy and have decent shot placement with a reasonable caliber and bullet weight for the game being hunted than you'll find the standard bullets work just fine!
about 99% of the time, the PROBLEM that prevents easy success,during most hunts, has not a thing to do with bullets, its the hunters lack of skill at getting in close to the game, his lack of knowledge of the games anatomy or not shooting well, or the lack of game in the area hunted.
a great deal of the problems guys have with bullets results from trying to push a smaller and lighter in weight than ideal projectile to higher velocities than many bullet designs can reliably function at, you might be amazed at how consistent most cup & core bullet designs work if bullets are at least a .270 sectional density and if you don,t exceed 3000fps at the muzzle .
Ive dropped deer and ELK very effectively with a 358 win carbine, a 35 whelen rifle and my 340 weatherby using the bullets listed above and frequently get total penetration and very quick kills. don,t fall for the B.S, that only premium bullets will work, the standard bullets do an excellent job., standard bullets are far better in accuracy and design than the old cast lead bullets used in the 1800s to kill 60 million buffalo,and hundreds of thousands of deer and elk, and that alone makes the idea that you can,t kill deer without premium bullets a joke!
the whole idea of bullet failure seems to stem from the guys who want to use the lightest weight and fastest bullet combos to get the flattest trajectory possible, use a decent weight bullet and a reasonable caliber and the bullets pushed to a velocity they were designed to be used at and the problems with over expansion vanish. for deer Id suggest no less than a 100 grain bullet in 25 caliber,at 2700fps , for elk nothing lighter than a 120 grain bullet in 25 caliber,at 2700fps , and a 150 grain 277 caliber,at 2700fps , would be a more reasonable lower limit in my opinion
I see guys complain frequently that the 150grain-210 grain bullets from the 7mm-300 mags tend to turn to glitter on impact, in my opinion once you start pushing almost any jacketed lead core bullet over 3000fps your looking for problems unless the range is great enough to allow the bullets to slow significantly before impact
Ive never seen a 250 grain 338 hornady bullet from my 338 win or 340 wby , or a 250 speer from my 35 whelen,or a 300 grain hornady bullet from my 375 H&H disintegrate on impact like your describing, but then they are only leaving the muzzle at 2875 fps or less, and in the case of the whelen probably only 2450fps but they still do a realy good job of killing ELK,in fact one of the few times I saw bullets turn to glitter it was with a friends 165 grain loads in a 300 wby pushed top max velocities....I don,t know, seems to be a pattern that pushing bullets designed to expand well at long ranges then using them on tough targets at close range might not be the best idea!
and since in my experience shots over 300yards on elk where I hunt are rare, Id at least consider a tougher bullet or a little less velocity.
even the guys I load 200 grain speer bullets for in their 30/06 , or 405 remingtons for they 45/70 rifles don,t seem to have that bullet fragmentation issue?
YEAH! I know your concerned with that flat trajectory......don,t be, just get into about 300 yards before shooting and use a tough bullet and know your game anatomy...its worked for everyone in our elk camp for 4 decades
Ive seen a good many deer and elk shot with the 270-280-30/06 class cartridges, they all seem to give vary similar results in my opinion, stepping up velocity with the 7mm mags and 300 mags sometimes seems to produce faster kills and more bullet failures, Ive dressed out dozens of deer and elk, and at least in my case Ive seen that the larger calibers and heaver bullets in the .270 -.300 sectional density range in the 338-375 moving at sub 3000fps velocities seem to produce the more consistent results and deeper penetration.
but the fact remains that almost any projectile that impacts the heart lung area and penetrates 10"-12" thru that area ,potential delivers a mortal wound, its the projectile destroying vital organs that matters, and its both shot placement and the fact that both impact angles and ranges are unpredictable and most hunters CAN,T consistently place bullets correctly under field conditions that causes the problems, selecting a bullet that has a higher sectional density (weight for diam.)tends to increase penetration allowing raking angle shots to reach and destroy vital organs, but the main factor its the LACK of consistent hunter skill in proper bullet placement in my experience.
In my experience ,you have a better chance of a single shot kill if you limit shots to ranges where you can place shots consistently in a 5" circle and if you use a heavy for caliber expanding bullet, and on animals as large as elk Ive found the
150 grain 270
160-175 grain 7mm
180grain-200 grain 30 cal
to work reasonably well
but once you see what a 250-270 grain 338-375 caliber does its just obvious that the medium bores have a slight advantage
any of the better bullets can and do produce mortal wounds, with proper shot placement.
but Ive noticed the heavier medium bores consistently seem to impact harder and get a more pronounced reaction from game
IVE found no reason at all to swap from a 250 grain speer in my 358 win or 35 whelen, or a 250 grain HORNADY in my 338 win or 340 wby.
theres always going to be those guys that want to brag about their equipment, but you can,t really improve on almost a perfect record of one shot kills on ELK and DEER killed over 42 years with those bullets.
If you KNOW your games anatomy and have decent shot placement with a reasonable caliber and bullet weight for the game being hunted than you'll find the standard bullets work just fine!
or If I put a different perspective on this, if wounded elk consistently used those antlers to impale and kill elk hunters that could not properly place their shots I think you would find far more proponents suggesting a 35 whelen-375 H&H was a better selection than a 26/06-30/06 for use in elk hunts
Ive used the 338 win mag on a couple elk, I prefer my 340 wby , but certainly don,t see anything wrong with either choice, any difference in performance is minor as the 340 just pushes the same bullets about 200-300fps faster, what I have noticed is that bullet selection has a huge effect on your results, Ive settled on the 250 grain 338 hornady as it gives the type of results I like (deep penetration) but you get a good deal more expansion and noticeably faster kills on mule deer using the 200 grain speers, the 250 hornady zip thru deer and they tend to run a bit before dropping, the 200 speers work great on elk on lung shots but don,t always exit and I like exits
worth reading
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg
DEER
http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... spx?id=112
ELK
http://www.hornady.com/store/338-Cal-.338-250-gr-SP-RP/
these are the bullets most of the guys in my elk camp use and I can,t remember single bullet failure
cal .277..speer 150 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000211605
cal .30...speer 200 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212211
cal .338 hornady 250 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/767308 ... box-of-100
cal .358 .speer 250 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212453
cal .375 hornady 270 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/930087 ... -box-of-50
cal .458 remington 405 grain.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160121 ... soft-point
theres always going to be those guys that want to brag about their equipment, but you can,t really improve on almost a perfect record of one shot kills on ELK and DEER killed over 35 years with those bullets.
If you KNOW your games anatomy and have decent shot placement with a reasonable caliber and bullet weight for the game being hunted than you'll find the standard bullets work just fine!
about 99% of the time, the PROBLEM that prevents easy success,during most hunts, has not a thing to do with bullets, its the hunters lack of skill at getting in close to the game, his lack of knowledge of the games anatomy or not shooting well, or the lack of game in the area hunted.
a great deal of the problems guys have with bullets results from trying to push a smaller and lighter in weight than ideal projectile to higher velocities than many bullet designs can reliably function at, you might be amazed at how consistent most cup & core bullet designs work if bullets are at least a .270 sectional density and if you don,t exceed 3000fps at the muzzle .
Ive dropped deer and ELK very effectively with a 358 win carbine, a 35 whelen rifle and my 340 weatherby using the bullets listed above and frequently get total penetration and very quick kills. don,t fall for the B.S, that only premium bullets will work, the standard bullets do an excellent job., standard bullets are far better in accuracy and design than the old cast lead bullets used in the 1800s to kill 60 million buffalo,and hundreds of thousands of deer and elk, and that alone makes the idea that you can,t kill deer without premium bullets a joke!
the whole idea of bullet failure seems to stem from the guys who want to use the lightest weight and fastest bullet combos to get the flattest trajectory possible, use a decent weight bullet and a reasonable caliber and the bullets pushed to a velocity they were designed to be used at and the problems with over expansion vanish. for deer Id suggest no less than a 100 grain bullet in 25 caliber,at 2700fps , for elk nothing lighter than a 120 grain bullet in 25 caliber,at 2700fps , and a 150 grain 277 caliber,at 2700fps , would be a more reasonable lower limit in my opinion
I see guys complain frequently that the 150grain-210 grain bullets from the 7mm-300 mags tend to turn to glitter on impact, in my opinion once you start pushing almost any jacketed lead core bullet over 3000fps your looking for problems unless the range is great enough to allow the bullets to slow significantly before impact
Ive never seen a 250 grain 338 hornady bullet from my 338 win or 340 wby , or a 250 speer from my 35 whelen,or a 300 grain hornady bullet from my 375 H&H disintegrate on impact like your describing, but then they are only leaving the muzzle at 2875 fps or less, and in the case of the whelen probably only 2450fps but they still do a realy good job of killing ELK,in fact one of the few times I saw bullets turn to glitter it was with a friends 165 grain loads in a 300 wby pushed top max velocities....I don,t know, seems to be a pattern that pushing bullets designed to expand well at long ranges then using them on tough targets at close range might not be the best idea!
and since in my experience shots over 300yards on elk where I hunt are rare, Id at least consider a tougher bullet or a little less velocity.
even the guys I load 200 grain speer bullets for in their 30/06 , or 405 remingtons for they 45/70 rifles don,t seem to have that bullet fragmentation issue?
YEAH! I know your concerned with that flat trajectory......don,t be, just get into about 300 yards before shooting and use a tough bullet and know your game anatomy...its worked for everyone in our elk camp for 4 decades
Ive seen a good many deer and elk shot with the 270-280-30/06 class cartridges, they all seem to give vary similar results in my opinion, stepping up velocity with the 7mm mags and 300 mags sometimes seems to produce faster kills and more bullet failures, Ive dressed out dozens of deer and elk, and at least in my case Ive seen that the larger calibers and heaver bullets in the .270 -.300 sectional density range in the 338-375 moving at sub 3000fps velocities seem to produce the more consistent results and deeper penetration.
but the fact remains that almost any projectile that impacts the heart lung area and penetrates 10"-12" thru that area ,potential delivers a mortal wound, its the projectile destroying vital organs that matters, and its both shot placement and the fact that both impact angles and ranges are unpredictable and most hunters CAN,T consistently place bullets correctly under field conditions that causes the problems, selecting a bullet that has a higher sectional density (weight for diam.)tends to increase penetration allowing raking angle shots to reach and destroy vital organs, but the main factor its the LACK of consistent hunter skill in proper bullet placement in my experience.
In my experience ,you have a better chance of a single shot kill if you limit shots to ranges where you can place shots consistently in a 5" circle and if you use a heavy for caliber expanding bullet, and on animals as large as elk Ive found the
150 grain 270
160-175 grain 7mm
180grain-200 grain 30 cal
to work reasonably well
but once you see what a 250-270 grain 338-375 caliber does its just obvious that the medium bores have a slight advantage
any of the better bullets can and do produce mortal wounds, with proper shot placement.
but Ive noticed the heavier medium bores consistently seem to impact harder and get a more pronounced reaction from game
IVE found no reason at all to swap from a 250 grain speer in my 358 win or 35 whelen, or a 250 grain HORNADY in my 338 win or 340 wby.
theres always going to be those guys that want to brag about their equipment, but you can,t really improve on almost a perfect record of one shot kills on ELK and DEER killed over 42 years with those bullets.
If you KNOW your games anatomy and have decent shot placement with a reasonable caliber and bullet weight for the game being hunted than you'll find the standard bullets work just fine!
or If I put a different perspective on this, if wounded elk consistently used those antlers to impale and kill elk hunters that could not properly place their shots I think you would find far more proponents suggesting a 35 whelen-375 H&H was a better selection than a 26/06-30/06 for use in elk hunts
Ive used the 338 win mag on a couple elk, I prefer my 340 wby , but certainly don,t see anything wrong with either choice, any difference in performance is minor as the 340 just pushes the same bullets about 200-300fps faster, what I have noticed is that bullet selection has a huge effect on your results, Ive settled on the 250 grain 338 hornady as it gives the type of results I like (deep penetration) but you get a good deal more expansion and noticeably faster kills on mule deer using the 200 grain speers, the 250 hornady zip thru deer and they tend to run a bit before dropping, the 200 speers work great on elk on lung shots but don,t always exit and I like exits
worth reading
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg
DEER
http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... spx?id=112
ELK
http://www.hornady.com/store/338-Cal-.338-250-gr-SP-RP/
these are the bullets most of the guys in my elk camp use and I can,t remember single bullet failure
cal .277..speer 150 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000211605
cal .30...speer 200 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212211
cal .338 hornady 250 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/767308 ... box-of-100
cal .358 .speer 250 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212453
cal .375 hornady 270 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/930087 ... -box-of-50
cal .458 remington 405 grain.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160121 ... soft-point
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