do standard bullets work? for deer & ELK?

[grumpyvette]

IVE found no reason at all to swap from a 250 grain speer in my 358 win or 35 whelen, or a 250 grain HORNADY in my 338 win or 340 wby.
theres always going to be those guys that want to brag about their equipment, but you can,t really improve on almost a perfect record of one shot kills on ELK and DEER killed over 35 years with those bullets.
If you KNOW your games anatomy and have decent shot placement with a reasonable caliber and bullet weight for the game being hunted than you'll find the standard bullets work just fine!
about 99% of the time, the PROBLEM that prevents easy success,during most hunts, has not a thing to do with bullets, its the hunters lack of skill at getting in close to the game, his lack of knowledge of the games anatomy or not shooting well, or the lack of game in the area hunted.
a great deal of the problems guys have with bullets results from trying to push a smaller and lighter in weight than ideal projectile to higher velocities than many bullet designs can reliably function at, you might be amazed at how consistent most cup & core bullet designs work if bullets are at least a .270 sectional density and if you don,t exceed 3000fps at the muzzle .
Ive dropped deer and ELK very effectively with a 358 win carbine, a 35 whelen rifle and my 340 weatherby using the bullets listed above and frequently get total penetration and very quick kills. don,t fall for the B.S, that only premium bullets will work, the standard bullets do an excellent job., standard bullets are far better in accuracy and design than the old cast lead bullets used in the 1800s to kill 60 million buffalo,and hundreds of thousands of deer and elk, and that alone makes the idea that you can,t kill deer without premium bullets a joke!
the whole idea of bullet failure seems to stem from the guys who want to use the lightest weight and fastest bullet combos to get the flattest trajectory possible, use a decent weight bullet and a reasonable caliber and the bullets pushed to a velocity they were designed to be used at and the problems with over expansion vanish. for deer Id suggest no less than a 100 grain bullet in 25 caliber,at 2700fps , for elk nothing lighter than a 120 grain bullet in 25 caliber,at 2700fps , and a 150 grain 277 caliber,at 2700fps , would be a more reasonable lower limit in my opinion
I see guys complain frequently that the 150grain-210 grain bullets from the 7mm-300 mags tend to turn to glitter on impact, in my opinion once you start pushing almost any jacketed lead core bullet over 3000fps your looking for problems unless the range is great enough to allow the bullets to slow significantly before impact
Ive never seen a 250 grain 338 hornady bullet from my 338 win or 340 wby , or a 250 speer from my 35 whelen,or a 300 grain hornady bullet from my 375 H&H disintegrate on impact like your describing, but then they are only leaving the muzzle at 2875 fps or less, and in the case of the whelen probably only 2450fps but they still do a realy good job of killing ELK,in fact one of the few times I saw bullets turn to glitter it was with a friends 165 grain loads in a 300 wby pushed top max velocities....I don,t know, seems to be a pattern that pushing bullets designed to expand well at long ranges then using them on tough targets at close range might not be the best idea!
and since in my experience shots over 300yards on elk where I hunt are rare, Id at least consider a tougher bullet or a little less velocity.
even the guys I load 200 grain speer bullets for in their 30/06 , or 405 remingtons for they 45/70 rifles don,t seem to have that bullet fragmentation issue?
YEAH! I know your concerned with that flat trajectory......don,t be, just get into about 300 yards before shooting and use a tough bullet and know your game anatomy...its worked for everyone in our elk camp for 4 decades

Ive seen a good many deer and elk shot with the 270-280-30/06 class cartridges, they all seem to give vary similar results in my opinion, stepping up velocity with the 7mm mags and 300 mags sometimes seems to produce faster kills and more bullet failures, Ive dressed out dozens of deer and elk, and at least in my case Ive seen that the larger calibers and heaver bullets in the .270 -.300 sectional density range in the 338-375 moving at sub 3000fps velocities seem to produce the more consistent results and deeper penetration.
but the fact remains that almost any projectile that impacts the heart lung area and penetrates 10"-12" thru that area ,potential delivers a mortal wound, its the projectile destroying vital organs that matters, and its both shot placement and the fact that both impact angles and ranges are unpredictable and most hunters CAN,T consistently place bullets correctly under field conditions that causes the problems, selecting a bullet that has a higher sectional density (weight for diam.)tends to increase penetration allowing raking angle shots to reach and destroy vital organs, but the main factor its the LACK of consistent hunter skill in proper bullet placement in my experience.
In my experience ,you have a better chance of a single shot kill if you limit shots to ranges where you can place shots consistently in a 5" circle and if you use a heavy for caliber expanding bullet, and on animals as large as elk Ive found the
150 grain 270
160-175 grain 7mm
180grain-200 grain 30 cal
to work reasonably well
but once you see what a 250-270 grain 338-375 caliber does its just obvious that the medium bores have a slight advantage
any of the better bullets can and do produce mortal wounds, with proper shot placement.
but Ive noticed the heavier medium bores consistently seem to impact harder and get a more pronounced reaction from game
IVE found no reason at all to swap from a 250 grain speer in my 358 win or 35 whelen, or a 250 grain HORNADY in my 338 win or 340 wby.
theres always going to be those guys that want to brag about their equipment, but you can,t really improve on almost a perfect record of one shot kills on ELK and DEER killed over 42 years with those bullets.
If you KNOW your games anatomy and have decent shot placement with a reasonable caliber and bullet weight for the game being hunted than you'll find the standard bullets work just fine!
or If I put a different perspective on this, if wounded elk consistently used those antlers to impale and kill elk hunters that could not properly place their shots I think you would find far more proponents suggesting a 35 whelen-375 H&H was a better selection than a 26/06-30/06 for use in elk hunts

Ive used the 338 win mag on a couple elk, I prefer my 340 wby , but certainly don,t see anything wrong with either choice, any difference in performance is minor as the 340 just pushes the same bullets about 200-300fps faster, what I have noticed is that bullet selection has a huge effect on your results, Ive settled on the 250 grain 338 hornady as it gives the type of results I like (deep penetration) but you get a good deal more expansion and noticeably faster kills on mule deer using the 200 grain speers, the 250 hornady zip thru deer and they tend to run a bit before dropping, the 200 speers work great on elk on lung shots but don,t always exit and I like exits

worth reading
http://stevespages.com/jpg/bestbullet.jpg
DEER
http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... spx?id=112


ELK
http://www.hornady.com/store/338-Cal-.338-250-gr-SP-RP/

these are the bullets most of the guys in my elk camp use and I can,t remember single bullet failure

cal .277..speer 150 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000211605

cal .30...speer 200 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212211

cal .338 hornady 250 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/767308 ... box-of-100

cal .358 .speer 250 grain
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... =000212453

cal .375 hornady 270 grain
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/930087 ... -box-of-50

cal .458 remington 405 grain.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160121 ... soft-point

 

[grumpyvette]

I think a great deal of the discussions on bullet construction,expansion penetration etc. are... when you think about... it based on the fact that many guys select calibers that are smaller than ideal for the intended application and then they are trying to make up for the lack of bullet weight sectional density and cross sectional area of the projectile thru some magical improved bullet design. that and they don,t have a clue about trajectory or game anatomy ,now the reason is based on increasing velocity without increasing recoil in many cases , and lack of experience actually hunting and judging ranges in the field and the fact that many guys can,t estimate ranges or shoot accurately worth a damn, past the point where they can hold dead on the target.
easily 75%-80% or more of all big game is killed at under 300 yards, so super velocity is not required
think about it! is theres not much in the way of game a caliber with decent weight and caliber like a 44 mag, 35 whelen, 340 weatherby, 375 H&H,378 weatherby, 416 Remington or 458 LOTT can,t kill effectively within its ideal range, obviously its recoil, and possibly muzzle blast that are the major the factors, your tying to avoid, because at least one of those calibers will effectively kill any game with decent bullets
select a decent hornady, speer or similar cup.core bullet in a 240 plus sectional density in those calibers thats generally a 250grain weight plus and you can concentrate on shot placement more than bullet construction.
think about the MILLIONS of bison, deer and ELK killed in the 1800s-1930s when most hunters had never seen a caliber that pushed a bullet past 3000fps and many bullets were cast lead or cup/core designs
in most cases if you can,t get into 300 yards or closer before firing,or learn to accurately judge ranges and hold correctly for longer shots, at big game I think your just not hunting hard enough and relying mostly on equipment and velocity rather than hunting skill.
really how hard is it to sight in a rifle, print out a trajectory chart and get a range finder and use it in the field if your serious about longer shots, or just get in closer before firing.
now IM not about to suggest you can,t, as an example use a 257 Roberts or 6.5mm Swedish, on most big game if you want too, but at some point the larger calibers will prove more effective

 

[rbl2]

Not all of us can hunt places where distance beyond 100 yds is a concern or have the opportunity to hunt the large game you get to hunt. Here where I live and hunt, south Mississsippi, I'm told most deer are taken at 40 yds and less. The closest I've ever taken one was at 80 yards. White tail deer is the big game for me.

But your point, pun unintentional, is well taken. I think every serious hunter should familiarize himself with his weapon so he knows just how far out he can accurately shoot and bring down his game.

I hunt with two basic weapons, one of either two muzzle loaders, both reproduction Civil War muskets, or a cheap SKS.

I know I can consistently shoot a 3" circle with my muzzle loaders but I go through a lot to be able to do that. I cast my own bullets, weigh them to within .5 grams, size them, and use my own lubricant made from a recipe that the Confederates used during the war. I do not at all like modern black powder lubricants. After doing all of the above I then do a lot of target shooting. Due to limitations of where I can target shoot I do not know where my bullets will go after 100 yards so if I ever find myself with a whitetail out much further than that I'll probably pass on it.

I know simply by mentioning an SKS I am opening a can of worms. It is my belief though that for the money you would be hard put to find a weapon as accurate and durable as an SKS. My claim to fame would be a one shot kill, again a white tail deer, at 375 yards with open sights. My son will swear it was 475 yards but I will not make that claim. If I have to I can return to the location and recheck it.

To make that kill I had to be very familiar with thethe weapon, the bullets trajectory, it's damage capabilities, as well the animals anatomy. I also rested the weapon on a sill plate in a deer stand and took very careful aim. The deer was in motion but just barely. The bullet struck just 1" below the heart. I'm willing to accept that a given amount of luck was involved but I never make a shot unless I am certain I will bring the deer down. It's against my personal beliefs to take a chance on wounding an animal and having it get away only to suffer for an extended period of time. Since then I have also added a scope. As much as I hate to admit it my eyes are no longer what they once were.

 

[grumpyvette]

Its been my experience that the 7.62x39 mm round in that SKS is fine for deer if expanding bullets are used, provided your SKS is accurate, (some are, very accurate, some are not even decent fence posts)Ive owned 4 over the years but no longer do as I traded them off, all were 100% dependable, 2 were very accurate ,(2"-3" iron site groups) one was barely able to hit a sheet of typing paper at 100 yards and one would not print anyplace on a sheet of typing paper at 25 yards consistently.
the two more accurate SKS carbines are still used by friends as their behind the seat ranch rifles they carry almost daily in their pick-up trucks.

 

[rbl2]

This is the first I've ever heard of an SKS being anything less than accurate.

The only way I could prove this now is through a witness whose credibility would be challenged as he is my son. However, for years I have said if I could see it, I could shoot it. I would hold up a quarter and say using open sights I could hit it at 100 yds.

Now, you know, I know, and dear ol ma knows you ain't gonna see no American quarter with unaided vision.

So I would trick the people I was talking to. I would tape that quarter to the center of an empty pack of cigarettes and attach the pack to a tree or whatever that would be 100 yds away from my shooting location. Of course I could not see that quarter but I could see that pack of cigarettes and with an SKS I could place a shot dead center of it and I could do it repeatedly.

The last time I did that was about 8-10 years ago and my eyes have since dimmed somewhat. I now wear trifocals. For the first time in my life I am relying on a scope. I have had scopes before but very rarely used them. This season, assuming I have the opportunity to hunt, I will definitely use that scope.

Keeping that in mind if I can find a reproduction Confederate scope for my muzzle loaders I'm in the market for at least one. If you know of any please let me know.

 

[grumpyvette]

btw SKS carbines tend to be finicky about ammo, I once talked with the guy I traded that least accurate SKS carbine to, (I told him it sucked accuracy wise and he took it as a challenge to find out why, he eventually replaced the barrel) and now it shoots fine with most ammo, but he told me the lacquered steel case Chinese ammo's much less accurate than the Russian and Yugoslavian ammo that looks similar

 

[rbl2]

You may be right about the accuracy of ammo from different nations. So far I haven't had a problem.

What I need to do, and you and everyone else here can feel free to kick my butt for not doing this sooner, is to start buying ammo in bulk again. I used to do that all the time but have not in quite awhile. Now it is getting expensive, I'm told hard to get, and I fear things will get worse before they get better.

On the other hand, instead of kicking my butt y'all could just buy the ammo for me. :lol:

I have a good reloading set up I loaned it to a friend about 15 years ago. He still has it and uses it. If he needs someting for it I buy it. I suppose I should go collect it from him and learn how to use it.

The other day we were cleaning an out building on my property and found something that looks like a vent hood for over an oven. While I have no idea what it is I do know it is lead and weighs about 80 lbs. That will make a bunch of minnie balls for my muskets. That ought to keep me busy for quite awhile. I think I'll wait til cooler weather so I can sit outside and have plenty of ventilation.

 

[grumpyvette]

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_se...&category_id=fdb66372e7845e2ba0e497ce50156edb

theres not a darn thing wrong with the 250 grain HORNADY BULLETS Item No.3335 for hunting ELK,
and they are far LESS expensive allowing far MORE practice, in 40 years of hunting ELK and loading for most of my friends, with 338 win and 340 wby rifles Ive never seen a bullet that was placed correctly fail to kill, with a single hit, yes you can be a guy that spends a great deal on bullets ,some might refer to those guys as a "bullet snob" ,but honestly once your bullets are accurate and can be depended on to destroy the vitals from all reasonable angles and ranges whats the point, of "BETTER" bullets
Al is one of my hunting buddies and hes always buying BARNES,NOSLER, NORTHFORK,BERGER ETC. he spends a small fortune,on those bullets but he rarely visits the range except during the 3-4 weeks prior to the hunt trips and he can,t hit CRAP shooting any way but off the bench or with a bi-pod as he can,t afford to practice, hes always amazed when I drill some walking ELK from a standing position, (OFF HAND) while just using a sling ,at ranges up to about 150 yards, BECAUSE I PRACTICE that way,and while those bullets are works of art, the fact remains that year after year the single well placed 250 grain HORNADY from my 340 mag produces the same results as his wonder bullets.......a single shot kills the ELK, so whats the POINT!

 

[grumpyvette]

think about the bullet weights you select, in most cases the bullets with the .260-.300 sectional density , and sharp point boat tail designers will carry their energy out to far greater ranges than the lighter bullets started out at higher velocities.
Ive always been rather amazed at the guys that look at the weatherby mags as mostly a way to push bullets to higher velocities, when they can also be used (and in my opinion, used better) to push heavier bullets with higher sectional densities to velocities standard cartridge designs are limited to far lighter bullets
example
I see guys all the time with 300 mags that push 150-165 grain bullets to impressive velocities, but I think they may be missing the best option, as the 190-208 grain boat tail designs seem to me to be the far better choice, as they carry energy out further in most cases and penetrate better

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=78e777b307ef3d9f196624416d5990c3&page=shop/browse&category_id=ffd8e51c7827b4eed2fb35a333f4eafb

play with this calculator and youll see what Im talking about

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

now this is an area where YOU need to make some choices ON what YOU expect from a well placed shot.
naturally your range to the target , the caliber you select,and the bullet design and where you tend to shoot the game and your knowledge of the games anatomy maters here.
it should be rather obvious that 30/06, 300-340-375 mag hits harder than a 243 or 257 mag, and they should be selected or matched to the application
if you go with a generally lighter weigh thinner jacket fast expanding bullet your far more likely to find you get more drop on the spot kills with heart/lung shots but youll also tend to have more meat ruined, and busting larger bones tends to produce lots of wasted meat and occasionally only wound, not fatally at least in the immediate time frame, occasionally and your less likely to be able to make raking angle shots reach the vitals, or get exit wounds.
go for the heavier thicker jacket and slower expanding bullets, and you tend to be able to make shots from almost any angle and still reach the vitals but you also tend to have ELK run slightly further or act stunned and stagger around for awhile before dropping, you can bust large bones and still reach the vitals, but every once in awhile ELK act as if you missed even with good hits , when those bullets zip thru with minimal obvious damage.
Ive hand loaded for over 40 years for most of the guys I hunt with, and Ive seen the results, most guys that are average marksmen probably would be better off with the faster expanding bullets and sticking with heart/lung shots.
If your confident in your bullet placement even at longer ranges the slower expanding bullets open up additional options, but they require more precise placement if your looking for (DEAD RIGHT NOW) results

Ive used about all the common rifle calibers from 257 roberts, 257 wby, up to 458 lott , and pistols from 357mag to 500 S&W, on local deer here in florida at one time or another,
and buffybr has a point, almost any caliber with a heavy for its bore diameter projectile properly placed is lethal in the hands of a skilled hunter
animals are far from armor plated even a 357 mag or 10mm will drop an elk with a well placed shot.
I have total confidence in the rifles I've selected once I know they are correctly sighted in, and while I tend to prefer the 35-45 calibers ,
you can't ignore physics and a heavy bullet of high sectional density tends to get much better penetration and carries energy well.
personally I prefer the 340 wby, and 375 H&H for big game, my late hunting partner used nothing but a 358 win BLR and referred to my rifles as cannons.
one of the guys I hunted with for years used a 257 roberts....we were all successful...
theres too many guys with a long list of successful kills using other cartridges to think that theres a magic upper or lower limit ,that must be adhered too on the weapons power to get it too work.
howard hill killed elephants with archery equipment, there have been record size grizzly's killed with a 22lr, eskimos have killed dozens of polar bear and huge walrus with a 243 win.
find what your comfortable using, use a quality bullet heavy for bore diameter, and learn how to shoot well from field positions and you'll have very few problems.
you need to be 100% confident in your choice, and know exactly your limitations, yes you do give up some potential range and penetration with some smaller calibers...
if you use those, just understand you need to get a bit closer and be a bit more precise, with shot placement,
power does NOT make up for bad shot placement, but it does allow you some extra latitude in making racking angle shots, at longer ranges, that you should not attempt with lesser calibers at longer ranges.
but I'd also point out that in almost 50 years of hunting , I'd bet 90% of the game Ive shot or seen shot was killed at well under 300 yards.
YOUR COMMENTS???

 

[grumpyvette]

I got asked if a 180 grain bullet will work on both ELK and deer,in a 300 mag, naturally the velocity, range and the bullet you select enters into the results youll see, and shot placement is key, but most of your standard 150-165 30 caliber bullets are designed for DEER in the calibers like 308 win and 30/06, while the 180-200 grain tend to have thicker jacket designs, but the truth is that either will work in a 300 mag because of the higher velocities and the fact that few deer are shot past about 400 yards in spite of what you read in magazines
A decent 180 grain should work just fine!
many guys use the 165 grain bullets in 300 mags and Ive seen great results if your not overly concerned with occasional less than ideal shot placement shots hitting other than the heart/lung area ruining a lot of meat

Ive used the 190 grain HORNADY , or 200 grain SPEER, in my 300 mag, for about 30 plus years for BOTH ELK and DEER and Ive never seen the slightest reason to change,
yes I hunt ELK far more than mule deer but the fact remains that a well hit mule deer with that 190 grain hornadys, or 200 grain SPEER, bullets not going anyplace but face first into the ground within seconds of bullet impact, in my experience.
yes its probably true the 165 grains tend to put them down faster, but whats the point, or difference both work, and your results depend,mostly on your knowledge of deer anatomy, its more your shot placement than the bullet on deer.
most Ive the deer Ive hit or seen hit with a 300 mag, in the heart/lung area drop on bullet impact, or at most run only a few yards, do a few autopsy's, look at the damage a well place hit from a 300 mag does to a deer,follow the path thru the chest while dressing them out, its a miracle they occasionally go anyplace, but strait down

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/bullet_detail.aspx?id=103

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-190-gr-BTSP/

IVE never yet found any problem using these two bullets in either my 30/06 or my 300 mag caliber rifles on deer or ELK, and it doesn,t matter if they get used at 10 yards or 400 yards, with proper shot placement the deer/elk just die with total and dependable consistency. yeah discussing all the new bullet designs seems like a good way to waste time, but I generally buy 10-20 boxes of each bullet with my tax rebate check and Im set for the next few years on 30 cal bullets, and yeah, I freely admit that my 30 cal rifles get used mostly on deer, but I have never had the least problem with them on ELK, if the required result was a single shot killing (I still think my .338-.375 caliber rifles are superior on elk, but either class of rifle kills both deer and elk with total consistency, if I place the shot correctly)

 

[grumpyvette]

Ive generally found the best value is shooting HOME CAST gas check BULLETS in a 45/70 ,cast from an alloy of wheel weights plus 4% tin by weight, sized to .459 and it drops the cost to pennies a cartridge
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

nei makes a couple nice hunting designed for deer, keep in mind these work really well out to about 200 yards on dear and need not be pushed over about 1700-1800fps

 

[rbl2]

I won't argue your methods. I simply use 100% lead for my black powder bullets. It expands more. I also carefully weigh my bullets keeping them within .5 grn and then size them.

The lube I use is from a recipe copied from a Confederate military manual. If memory serves me correctly it was 8 parts beeswax to 3 parts tallow. It works much better than any lube sold today. I have fired in excess of 100 rounds while target shooting and never once had to swab the bore of my muskets. Think of it this way, our ancestors did not kill in excess of 500,000 men with weapons that had to be swabbed every few rounds.

 

[grumpyvette]

"HEY GRUMPY should I load 150, or 180 grain bullets for deer hunting, in my 30/06?"


you need a quality bullet that expands reliably, and is extremely accurate that will penetrate deeply, but one that is low enough in cost that you can afford to practice regularly,
because I mostly hunt ELK,over the last 40 plus years , and because I do a good deal of reloading for the members of our elk hunt group, Ive purchased thousands of and loaded thousands of 180 grain and for the last 30 years,200 grain, 30 cal, SPEER bullets
in most of the guys 30/06 and 308 cal caliber rifles, your concern over bullet weight is not really warranted in my opinion, the 200 speers kill very effectively on both deer and elk WHEN THE SHOT PLACEMENT CORRECT,as will the 150 and 180 grain, find what shoots best, in this case, as deer are very easy to kill with proper SHOT PLACEMENT
I could hunt the rest of my life loading only those 200 speers and Im sure never have a problem on deer or ELK, its SHOT PLACEMENT, AND HAVING A DEPENDABLE EXPANDING BULLET, not the minor difference in grain weight that matters

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... spx?id=103

yes theres zero doubt a fast expanding 150 or 165 grain bullet at higher velocity tends to do more damage faster, but with proper shot placement its not a big factor and the heavier and slightly slower expending bullet allows you to make raking angle shots that the lighter weight bullets can,t make, drive a bullet thru the arteries on the top side of the heart and differences in bullet weight will be all but meaningless,, hit correctly deer make a short run and drop or drop on impact, bullet weight used does little to change that

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...er-soft-point-box-of-100?cm_vc=ProductFinding

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=270 Winchester&Weight=All&type=Rifle

theres only two guys in our elk hunting club that use a 270 win, I load all their ammo, and its a speer 150 grain hot core over 57 grains of H4831 with a 215 fed primer, both rifles shoot exceptionally tight bench rest groups , ones a BAR the other a B78 falling block and the guys kill elk regularly

 

[grumpyvette]

In my experience almost any caliber from 257 roberts up to 458 win can deliver a mortal wound, the questions not so much "can you kill an elk with your rifle" as it is "can you reasonably expect to kill an elk shooting from any reasonable range and with the elk not standing at an ideal broad side angle and still have him drop close to the point where he stood at bullet impact."

when I started elk hunting nearly all the hunters in our group used a 30/06 and 180-220grain bullets, those rifles KILLED just fine, but even with good shot placement the elk seldom dropped on bullet impact, most ran, some stood, most dropped inside 70-80 yards
when I swapped to a 340 wby and occasionally a 375 H&H they didn,t kill elk any deader, but there sure was a noticeable difference in the elks reaction when hit, it was obvious it hit harder,some still ran, some stood,then dropped, most dropped, and most fell inside 30-40 yards
from a pragmatic view either caliber resulted in a one shot kill, and a 30/06 had less recoil, cost less and was easier to carry, but there was little doubt in my experience that the larger calibers got the elks full attention much better, and dressing them out showed the larger heavier bullets tended to be more consistent in performance, penetrated deeper and broke bones more effectively
we all seem to spend endless hour worrying about calibers and bullets, and I guess thats part of the hobby, but have you ever seen a well placed 180 grain 30 cal from a 308 or 30/06 or a larger caliber like a 35 whelens 250 grain bullet not prove fatal to deer or elk or a hog/
in 40 plus years of hunting Ive seen lots of badly placed shots and guys that can,t shoot, Ive even seen light for caliber bullets from a 7MM mag and 300 mag turn to shrapnel resembling glitter on impact, but I can,t ever remember a brand name 180grain or larger bullet from a 30 cal or a 225-250 grain from a .338-.358 hitting the intended spot that failed to deliver a mortal wound
once you start selecting a name brand bullet in a .260 or longer/heavier sectional density in 30 cal or larger its just a matter of making exact shot placement

 

[grumpyvette]

how many guys have tried a wide variety of elk rifles?
I started out hunting ELK with a 760 Remington slide action 30/06 and 220 grain Remington bullet ammo, or 200 grain hand loads using speer bullets, as those loads were almost the standard among my mentors when I was younger back around 1968-1970, but I just KNEW that I needed a 340 wby after reading ballistic charts and dozens of magazine articles so I saved up and got one, and it works great! in fact its been my constant companion for most of my opening day hunts for 40 plus years (I did use a 378 and 375 H&H) several years) but I've generally had a second lighter to carry shorter rifle, on most hunts to use after the first few days when the elk retreat to the timber, Ive used a 45/70, several 300 mags, 375 H&H carbine,338/06, 35 whelen slide action,378 wby, 358 win BLR, 6.5mm Swedish Mauser,257 wby, 270 win single shot ruger,even a 257 roberts, now I may not have killed elk personally with all those rifles, but I have with several,most of them in fact, and I hand load for almost everyone in elk camp and do most of the dressing out chores, so I sure have seen the results as every one of those rifles in my or other peoples hands have accounted for elk killed.
so the one thing Ive found is that while the heavier calibers seem to do a bit more consistent job, its more where you hit the elk than what your using in a rifle that counts, as long as you use decent projectiles and that bullets that shred on impact are a total P.I.T.A. and not dependable. sometimes resulting in trailing jobs, even with good shot placement.
you sure don,t need anything larger than a 270 with a 150 grain bullet to kill elk effectively, but the heavier bullets do tend to penetrate a bit more consistently on raking angle shots

 

[grumpyvette]

yeah I know this is highly controversial,but in most applications I feel the standard bullets do an excellent job, if properly selected for the application, and a great deal of the answer will depend on the game and caliber and conditions under which the bullets are used, what you expect the bullet to do and if your using what might be called a remotely adequate caliber and cartridge for the game and conditions and ranges where your hunting.
most of us have very limited hunting time and using the best bullet you can afford makes sense when your spending thou$and$ on a hunt and bullets are a MINIMAL almost insignificant percentage of the cost.
yet having dressed out probably more game than many guys over the last 40 plus years,Id have to point out that I see very few bullet failures in the field, and darn few if any are occurring in bullets over 180 grains or over 30 caliber if the bullets left the rifle at under 3000fps, and the main consideration was a rather pragmatic,
"did the deer or elk etc die from a well placed shot"
yeah Ive used a 300 wby on elk in the past with 165 grain bullets and had bullets almost vaporize on impact the elk dropped within 10 feet, is that a true bullet failure?
Ive used a 117 grain premium bullet from a 257 wby on mule deer that seemed to have knocked them silly, but the bullet obviously failed to fully expand and exited,leaving a small path of destruction internally, the deer dropped instantly but was still trying to get up when I reached it,is that a true bullet failure?
most of my elk and deer have been killed with 200 grain 30 cal, 250 grain speer or hornady .338, .358 bullets or speer or hornady 270-300 grain bullets a few to remington 405 grain not one failed to kill.
Ive loaded 150 grain 277 cal and 200 grain 30 caliber speer bullets for decades for guys in our elk camp, Ive yet to see a well hit deer or elk shrug one off or had a hunter in our camp say he hit game and had a long trailing job, unless it was his shot placement that was the cause , and I don,t remember anyone shooting and not recovering game