good example of why your having a pistol maters

grumpyvette

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American Handgunner
July 2000 Issue
By: Massad Ayoob

Situation: A crazed armed-robber holds up a market, threatening to kill the young clerks.
Lesson: The rescue shot can be the Good Samaritan's only chance to save innocent lives.

It is a Saturday night, April 10, 1999, in. Forest, Miss. Roy Aultman, Jr., 39, rarely closes the SuperValu himself on weekends. Usually his mom supervises as the staff closes this family-owned, 19,700 sq. ft. supermarket. However, Mom is tired tonight and he suggests she go home early and let him take care of things.
Roy is very solicitous of his mother's health. In 1992, she was alone in her house when home invaders broke in. They shot her five times and left her for dead. She still bears the scars, physical and emotional. Not long thereafter, Roy's dad was killed in a single-vehicle crash. The family believes he had been deliberately run off the road.

The years since had been difficult. With those perpetrators still at large, Roy had learned to live in something close to the psychological state Jeff Cooper had defined as Condition Orange. He was almost never without a gun. He had taught his wife to shoot, and his 13-year-old son had taken to recreational shooting enthusiastically.

Roy, a ruddy-faced blond man of 6'3" and 220 pounds, found that he could easily conceal a full size 1911 under his shirt. He has taken the pistol off and left it in his desk in the managers' cubicle that is not readily accessible to the public. The years of living on "alert status" have made him aware of its absence, and something tells him to put it on.

He does not know at this moment that the impulse to put his gun on is, very soon now, going to preserve innocent human life.
It is 8:10 p.m. Roy takes his favorite .45, a stainless AMT Hardballer with 5" barrel and Pachmayr Signature grips, and slips it in his waistband "Mexican style" behind his right hip, tucking his dress shirt into the belt. On his big frame, the cocked and locked .45 disappears under the shirt.
Then comes the shouted cry that makes his heart leap: "Give me the money!"

It comes from his right, only a few steps away on the other side of the free-standing wall that divides the managers' cubicles from the public area of the food store. Aultman turns, instinctively ducking down, consciously taking an instant to compose himself. It's obvious that this isn't someone playing a joke.
"Give me all the money!"

One young girl is frozen, like a rabbit in the presence of a snake. The enraged gunman smashes his heavy pistol across her face, then takes her by the throat, and lifts her bodily with one powerful arm. He throws her.
She flies through the air, completely clearing the five-foot dividing wall and landing in Aultman's office. She crashes to the floor near Aultman. Sobbing hysterically, she scrambles to her feet and runs out of sight.

As Aultman cautiously assesses the scene, he can see only one perpetrator. It's obviously a man, stockily built. Roy can't see his face, or even his color. The perpetrator is wearing a sweatshirt with hood pulled up, a mask and gloves.

Instead, Aultman's attention tunnels toward the weapon in the man's right hand. It's a silver-colored 1911 identical to his own. The man is standing to Roy's right and pointing the pistol at the two remaining female clerks on Roy's left. The left side of the pistol is presented to him, and the storeowner can see clearly that the hammer is cocked, the safety is off and the finger is on the trigger.
Consciously trying to break out of the tunnel vision, Aultman scans left and right. He can see no other perpetrators, only the husky madman with his finger on the trigger.

Even with the facial features hidden by the mask, Roy can see the man is hyper, strung out, almost vibrating with violent tension. He has thrown the 100-something pound girl over a five-foot wall with one hand, pausing only to pistol-whip her. The pistol is swinging back and forth in a jerky, choppy motion between the other two young clerks. One of them is frozen, and the other is scooping money out of her cash drawer.

Saving the money isn't part of the equation. Aultman likes these young people who work for him, knows he's responsible for their safety and he is certain that in an instant this violent man with his finger on the trigger of a cocked pistol is going to shoot one or both of them.

Carefully, coolly, he takes the gun in both hands, his arms locked out in an isosceles stance, and braces the heel of his support hand on the top of the five-foot separation wall, bending at the waist to do so. He knows something about human anatomy. He knows where he'll have to put the bullet to keep "death throes" from jerking the trigger of that other .45.

Aiming over the top of the gun, he aligns the muzzle and the front sight with the ear of the perpetrator. At a moment when the suspect's gun is between the two victims and not actually pointed at either, Roy Aultman presses the trigger of his AMT straight back, with a smooth certainty born of years of practice.

The normally loud roar of the .45 seems soft and muted to Aultman as the pistol bucks in his hand. The man drops instantly, straight down, like a pile of laundry. The cocked pistol is down too, and harmless now. Blood pours from the head of the motionless, crumpled man. The 220 gr. semi-jacketed Speer bullet has caught the gunman just below the ear, coursing left to right through the lower part of the head where the primal reflexes emanate, and exited the other side. The wound has caused instantaneous collapse with no "post-agonal" response. The attacker has collapsed without a twitch.

He has also been killed instantly. The terror has ended with a single, rescuing gunshot, delivered by an armed citizen from a distance of approximately 11 feet, From the moment that the masked man had burst in the door wielding the big pistol, to the moment he fell dead, no more than 15 seconds have elapsed.
The shooting has gone down in a place of business containing many customers. One of the staff calls the police. Unknown to Aultman, a car pulls up outside containing two men. They glance at the scene inside and then their vehicle pulls away. Correlating the testimony of other witnesses, police will later conclude that these were the two accomplices who had let the gunman out of their car and were waiting for him in a laundromat parking lot across the street.

Aultman picked up the perpetrator's gun and locked it in his office. The police arrived quickly. Aultman's 1911 was still in his hand, pointing at the floor. Recognizing him, the officers holstered their own weapons, and Roy then secured his.

The rest of the scene was Kafkaesque. Customers stood in line expecting to be waited on. Those clerks who weren't too shaken dutifully ran their goods through checkout.

Not a minute and a half after the shooting, one customer walked up to the corpse and stared down at it for a moment, as the lake of blood continued to spread beneath it. The man matter-of-factly said, "Deader'n hell, ain't he?" Then he casually walked from the store.

An officer pulled up the dead man's stocking mask. Beneath it was the face of an African-American man in his late 20s. A rime of white powder was still visible around his nostrils, not yet washed away by the blood.

Outside in the parking lot, some African-American people from the neighborhood clustered. There was muttering: "White man shot a black man in cold blood!" But the mostly-black customers coming outside, who had witnessed the shooting, swiftly quelled the anger. "We saw it. Nobody could tell what color that man was!" "That SOB was pointing his gun at two black girls at the registers! The manager shot him to save their lives!"

The specter of a controversial "cross-racial shooting" faded away quickly, extinguished by the black community itself. African-Americans who lived in town were okay with Roy Aultman and his family. They knew that at least half of the Super-Valu's staff is black, as is up to 70 percent of its customers. The Aultmans have always dealt with them with respect and friendship. Besides, the black witnesses had been correct: no one could have known the gloved, masked man's race until after the shooting, and Aultman's bullet had rescued two young black women who were being terrorized by a violent individual who had already brutally assaulted one young woman. There was no fertile soil for anyone with a personal agenda to plant a race-baiting press conference. That element of the incident simply disappeared.

The police and the district attorney's office saw a clear-cut case of justifiable homicide in defense of innocent persons, and ruled it as such without bothering to submit it to the county Grand Jury that met two months later.

Aultman's pistol, taken as evidence, was returned in due time. The dead man's gun, an AMT Hardballer identical to Aultman's, turned out to have been stolen in a burglary in a nearby community some weeks before.

The robber, age 27 at time of death, had grown up in the area. He'd had a promising start as a high school athlete. But, police and reporters later discovered he had become involved in drugs. The habit led him on a terrible odyssey of big cities and violent crimes, a journey that had ended at last with a single shot from an intended victim's pistol.

Workmen's Comp provided the SuperValu people with a psychologist to help them deal with the trauma. "She understood," Aultman told me softly. "The doctor had been the victim of an armed robbery herself. She was helpful."
No SuperValu employees quit after the incident. The three who were under the gun all personally thanked Aultman for saving their lives.
 
http://www.baynews9.com/article/news/20 ... d=facebook


heres a good example of why you need to carry a concealed weapon, because you never know where or when youll be attacked, and why a 380 is not the ideal caliber, because look at the results after hitting an attacker 4 times, at close range, hes still up functioning and expected to survive, which would be far less likely with a 357 mag, 10mm or 45 acp

yeah! buddy a good 357 mag, 45acp, or 10mm with double tap brand ammo would be far less likely to result in a guy shot 4 times standing there yelling at you to stop shooting him
I know my 10 mm glock only takes one solid hit to drop a deer!
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalo ... tdlbrm4582


ST. PETERSBURG --

Police plan to charge a 17-year-old boy who was shot four times while attempting to rob two people in an Applebee's parking lot Sunday night.

Bay News 9 is not naming the juvenile suspect, who will be charged with two counts of attempted armed robbery.

Police said the suspect approached Raven Smith and Lesley Tanner's car around 10:30 p.m. Sunday and pointed a gun at Tanner.

Smith, 34, who has concealed weapons permit, saw this and fired his .380 caliber gun at the suspect several times.

After the suspect was struck four times, he pulled off his mask and yelled at Smith to stop shooting. The suspect told Smith the gun was fake, though police said it was a fully loaded .25 caliber automatic.

The suspect was taken to an area hospital in serious condition but is expected to survive, police said.

Police said Smith acted in self defense.
The initial report

The St. Petersburg Police Department is investigating a shooting that happened Sunday night in a restaurant parking lot.

According to officials, a person was shot during a robbery attempt outside an Applebee's restaurant.

The shooting took place in the parking lot outside the Applebee's at 4700 4th St. North just before 11 p.m.

Police officials said as a couple parked their car, a masked man attempted to rob them. But the male would-be victim pulled his own gun and fired multiple times at the robber.

The robber, who hasn't been identified, was shot and rushed to a local hospital with non-life threatening injuries.

Customers inside Applebee's called Bay News 9 shortly after the shooting saying police had locked down the restaurant until the scene outside was under control.

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related info
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Did you see the interview of the man in the IHOP last week that had a concealed carry permit and a handgun who started to draw but decided to hide and keep a low profile because the shooter had a semi-automatic rifle? Older fellow, and smart. He said he knew he was massively out-gunned and couldn't win with a pistol vs. rifle.
 
thats B.S. a decent hit with almost any pistol MAY have stopped the guy with a rifle, and saved lives and the element of surprise could have saved lives, now theres ZERO question that a major caliber like a 357 mag, 10mm or 45 acp would have a far higher chance of scoring a one shot stop but failing to engage the criminal while others are butchers while your armed, is criminal negligence in my opinion.
would the guy have felt better if the guy killed a dozen people before he was personally forced to defend himself?
thats just one more reason why you need to put serious thought into what you carry for defense,if you can,t depend on what you carry
to stop an opponent with a single or at least a couple center mass hits your carrying the wrong weapon
if you carry you really need to think things thru well ahead of time, if your not carrying an effective weapon its rather foolish to bother at all, why would you carry a tool that can,t effectively do the job its likely to be called upon to do when the crap hits the fan, its not like you can pick the time .place, or opponent ,so you obviously need to carry something that will be effective in a wide range of condition's
hell, a good shot with a 22 lr revolver might not have dropped the guy on the spot, but a few good hits would have significantly reduced the chances of the guy just walking thru and killing everyone at his leisure.
if anything thats an excellent argument for NOT carrying a 22lr-380 acp and making the choice of at least a 9mm-357 mag as a minimum defensive choice and PRACTICING A GREAT DEAL
Im a huge believer in the 357 mag-41 mag revolvers and 40 s&w -45acp pistols (PROVIDED THE CORRECT AMMOS USED) simply because I see how well those calibers work on hogs and deer and a good hits almost always both fatal and effectively gets the recipients full attention on bullet impact.
yes they may be a bit harder to conceal, but if you need to use it you can depend on it doing the required job, its not like any sane person stops firing if the opponents still advancing, you keep firing as long as it takes to disable your opponent, and because your LIFES on the line you better think thru the tool youll use before your forced to use it

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http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm
 
Grumpy - you know I carry every single day, as do you. But I am FAR lazier than you are. Mine is a micro-gun, a Kahr PM9 with an extra mag in my opposite front pocket under my keys. That's the best I can do 24/7. It's not a popular choice, but I love it. The S&W 642 is 10x more popular, and it's equally ill-suited to bring to bear against a semi-automatic rifle. You carry a full-size Glock 20, and if you can get a shot off, that's a good weapon to bring up with confidence. I have a Sig P220 Carry that I have the same confidence in, but I will not carry. It's no bigger than your G20, but it's too big for me. I have a Kimber and Browning Hi Power, with Milt Sparks and Alessi leather respectively, that carry well but I carry them infrequently. The Kahr is what I can do every day, that's my compromise level for "always there" carry.
 
A lot of these questions come down to personality, character, personal disposition - and not the choice of firearm, or the laws about usage of firearms. In hindsight, we all would like to think of ourselves as potential heroes when placed in such a situation, but is this realistic?

Imagine that this was a tavern in Medieval Europe... guns have not been invented yet, all that we have is swords. Some unruly fellow walks in, brandishing his sword, making threats. Most gentlemen carried a sword, or a dagger, or some sharp implement. But would you unsheathe it? In what circumstances? When is it better to confront the attacker, when to run away, when to hide, when to play dumb? Or imagine that this is high-school. Nobody is armed, but some bully picks a fight, threatening some one vastly smaller/weaker - or maybe just innocent bystanders. Would you join the fight? Would you fight, knowing that you would be suspended from school (and maybe even expelled), equally the same as the bully? Would you swing a blow first, before the attacker has a chance to strike? Guns allow us to engage from a standoff distance, but the basic question is the same as with hand-to-hand combat.
 
Ive always done my best to avoid fights but I also took extensive martial arts training and got in more than my share of fights in high school
as to answering your question ....I know from experience that I would do my best to NOT get involved if there was no immediate threat to me personally, but if there was id hold back nothing and do anything required to win, age and experience and guile can and does usually over come youth and unskilled force. or put a different way, you don,t directly go head to head and toe to toe with an adversary if you can prevent it, that doesn't mean you can,t use your skill, experience and guile to out smart or gain a over whelming advantage.
theres always a way to win, it just takes some experience, and using your mind before you get into the confrontation and having the skill to do something once your committed helps so you get training.
I used to teach martial arts , one of the first lessons we taught the cops I trained was that things are not always what they seem to be and that even an old guy whose got skills can easily overcome some young muscle bound enthusiastic guy with far less experience .
like most things in life, if you want to be prepared you can be, but having the the will to succeed and skills before you need them is a required , once you have that you can make a logical decision on how or even if you care to proceed.
merely having a gun or a knife is not enough, you need to know you have the skill to rapidly and effectively use the tools before you engage the antagonist, then you can decide if the risk, and potential cost of acting is worth the potential reward
yes I got my butt kicked in 7th grade, but by 11th grade I don,t think anyone wanted to even try it, because getting my butt kicked got me heavily into martial arts, and by the time I was 40 I was teaching martial arts to several guys.
I know I would not hesitate for an instant to shoot or kill , or fatally cut someone who was a valid and immediate threat to myself or family, if that was the only option, but I also know that in most cases being aware of whats going on around you and taking some reasonable precautions helps improve your chances greatly of not having to confront an antagonist.
you can,t allow yourself to be emotional, you need to be one cold, mean, heartless S.O.B. if thats required, and clinically precise and effective user of the tools and fully and legally justified or you don,t get involved, and your only justified up to the point youve significantly reduced the threat and no further, EXAMPLE
if you disarmed a guy threatening you with a knife and busted his arm,doing it, your not justified in further damage, the threat at that points been reduced, your no longer legally able to do more, if you shot some guy and he dropped his gun, you can,t walk over and shoot him again, what you don,t want to do is get into a confrontation where your on an equal footing with your opponent you want to totally control and devastate any opponent once forced to act, and if possible do so almost instantly, so knowing what to do and which tools to use helps immensely
 
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