got asked again about what Id select for a good all around elk/mule deer rifle

Discussion in 'rifle related' started by Grumpy, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    REQUIRED? probably not!
    damn useful and dependable HELL YES!
    I think you may be confusing a cartridges potential lethality, with a rifles ability to consistently put down game efficiently,
    and quickly from any reasonable range or angle,factors that

    differ wildly with both range and the bullet being selected,
    And the game animal being hunted, and the likely terrain and conditions its generally hunted in,
    and the result is very dependent on the shooter knowing the games anatomy,
    .and being able to place shots accurately.
    You really can,t logically base your choice from those guys who quote the math,
    from trajectory and energy tables, simply because ranges and the angles and conditions vary wildly. for extra long range your going to want a 30-330 caliber magnum, but in 50 years of hunting elk and mule deer I think Ive had only 3-4 times I needed to shoot at over 300 yards.
    youll find a great many threads discussing cartridges, a 30/06 with the proper ammo, like a good 180-200 grain bullet, will kill any elk if the guys using it understands its limitations on range and the animals anatomy, and will certainly work well in over 80% of the areas and conditions your likely to see.
    that does not mean its ideal, every caliber and rifle compromises in some area of range,recoil or penetration, rifle weight etc. so the person selecting the rifle will make a choice he feels makes the best compromises,
    personally I want a bit more power and bullet mass and I'm willing to accept more rifle weight and recoil... most people don,t want those factors.


    with a 300 wby or win mag!/

    with a 340 wby or lapua mag!/
    Ive hunted elk for almost 50 years, Ive seen guys successfully drop elk with everything from a 257 Roberts to a 458 win mag.
    one guy I hunt with uses a ruger #1 in 270, and my late hunting partner preferred a BLR in 358 win,
    both guys have a long list of successful hunts.
    what rifle you select is far less important than your skill using it and knowledge of the elk and the area hunted,
    a decent rifle,you already probably own, in a caliber like a 30/06, with a quality 180 grain-210 grain bullet,
    in a , bolt action, slide action, single shot or BLR is fully adequate in experienced hands
    Id say far more hunts fail due to lack of the hunters physical conditioning, lack of proper knowledge of the area hunted,
    or lack of persistence than due to the rifle used

    the best combo Ive found for general use where you don,t know the ranges likely to be encountered,
    is a synthetic stock 340 wby loaded with 250 grain bullets and a decent scope like this
    I doubt Id have done any , better or worse with a ruger falling block in 338 win or 35 whelen
    or a BLR in 30/06
    theres no disputing the fact that a properly placed shot from a 270 win , 30/06 or 308 win will be lethal, if placed correctly and if the correct bullet design has been selected, yet,
    in 45 years Of elk hunting , I've noticed several distinct trends, that have effected my personal choices and confidence in the rifles I personally use.
    when I started out every magazine,
    I read was promoting flat trajectory magnums like the remington 7mm mag and 300 win mag , 300 wby mag, as the ideal hunting calibers,
    most Of the guys I hunted with were originally either 7mm or 30 caliber magnum fans.
    hit almost any game in a vital area with a reasonable caliber and mortal/ lethal damage can be done,
    but that is not always an indication of how fast an animals likely to drop or how far it might travel between the time its hit and it dies,
    As time progressed factors like recoil, muzzle blast,rifle length and cost of both rifle and ammo and easy of operation began to be considered ,
    and watching the consistent results other people were getting,
    seemed to have a good deal of weight or effect on the rifles other members of my elk hunt group bought.
    over the decades most of the guys saw the advantages of the 30-45 caliber carbines,as these rifles seemed to produce very convincing results at, as the ranges we found elk at seldom exceeded 300 yards,
    and rifles chambered for the 308 win, 358 win, 35 whelen , and 338 win and even the 45/70,became favorites!
    we found that the rifle and caliber were far less important than the skill, endurance and experience of the guy using it!
    that does not imply theres not some advantages in some calibers over other's,
    just that there's much more to elk hunting that the cartridge you select to use!
    I started my big game hunting career with a 30/06 Springfield and over the decades , I settled on the 340 wby and 375 H&H as being my ideal rifle calibers ,
    but I seriously doubt any of the successful results in lethality would have changed in any major way had I simply retained the 30/06 Springfield, or bought a 35 whelen.
    but I can remember several hunts where the result of being able to put down game fast and effectively made a big potential difference.
    but once you develop a 100% confidence in your rifle(s) your very reluctant to change from what you've proven many times over will kill with a single shot.
    my late hunting partner Ron was convinced his 358 win BLR was idea, there's at least 5 guys in our group that idolize the Remington 7600 in caliber 35 whelen.
    keep in mind your whole hunts success may depend on your ability to make one well placed shot and your knowledge of elk anatomy and your field accuracy.
    from my experience I would suggest you select a rifle with enough power and a flat enough trajectory that you feel comfortable making a 250-300 yard shot from field positions, as easily 95% of my shots at game, over 45 years of hunting in at least 7 states for deer and elk, were taken at under 300 yards
    the two most popular rifles in the hunt club I belong too are,
    my late hunting partner considered anyone not equipped, with a browning BLR in caliber 358 win ,
    while hunting elk too be hampered and working under a sever dis-advantage
    I loaded for him for almost 30 years , fed 215 primer, 250 grain speer and 44 grains of IMR 4064
    that carbine accounted for at least 14 elk over 35 years.
    . [​IMG]
    he constantly referred to my 340 wby as a "damn CANNON"
    we were both successful.
    Many of the guys that are not lever action fans, buy bolt or pump actions in caliber 35 whelen, the 35 whelen adds about 200 fps to the same bullets the 358 win shoots,
    ( I doubt any elk or deer knows the difference)several of the guys I hunt elk with think the 7600 35 whelen, is a top choice,
    I've used one and I don,t see a damn thing thats in need of improvement if you hunt the ticker timber areas.
    [​IMG] Whelen&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Source=

    the Remington 7600 (30/06 and 35 whelen)
    and the browning BLR (308 win and 358 win)
    I do a great deal of the hand loading for members
    I generally use fed 215 primers
    all four calibers in both style guns with proper hand loads will usually produce consistent 3 shot groups under 1.5" at 100 yards off a good solid bench rest
    powders vary , but WW748 IMR4064 and h380 and H414 are common
    both the 35 calibers seem to prefer the speer 250 grain bullets
    I think we all find we have favorite rifle action types , personally I like and trust single shot browning falling block rifles like the browning 78 ,in 300 wby,
    and the bolt action weatherby mark V ,in 340 wby, and the 375 H&H, bolt action, for most of my hunting,
    (you might feel thats excessive, I know I'm in a minority)
    I could not pick or would want to even suggest what YOU might prefer,
    some guys like blondes some guys prefer brunettes... find what you like best, and what you have fun with, and youll never be wrong.
    I've purchased, and used a great many rifle calibers from 6 mm rem to 458 LOTT and a 58 and 62 caliber muzzle loader's
    many guys seem to be adversely effected by any significant recoil and many prefer lighter weight rifles, thats fine,
    I find lots of the guys I hunt with preferred pump and lever actions
    personally I prefer the .338-.45 calibers, they tend to get obviously noticeable results
    you can't ignore physics a larger and heavier projectile tends to hit harder,
    but its a judgement call on how hard you want to hit the target or what trajectory and recoil limitations your willing to deal with
    I've seen several elk killed with a 257 roberts and a couple killed with a 45/70, , most guys seem to find a 308 win, 30/06 or 270 win works well.
    power is obviously not as critical as shot placement
    if you can accurately use a 300 mag-375 mag the extra power has marginal advantages in a few applications but its rarely if ever going make or break a hunts success.
    from what Ive seen having confidence in your choice of rifle and being very familiar with its quirks and characteristics and limitations is the key to success not the action type or caliber or case head stamp.


    Ive had good accuracy with the 30 cals with the 165 grain

    keep in mind the bullet you select does all the work, and if your hunting an area where ranges tend to be longer than about 250 yards its a good idea to select a projectile with a high ballistic coefficient, (IE lower drag projectiles in the heavier weight for caliber range ,will allow longer range hits with flatter trajectory!/

    just a side note

    when I first got into hunting elk , I was about 18 years old, and that was back in about 1968, and I was very lucky,
    I had several skilled mentors with decades of experience ,that made the trip out to Colorado every year,
    these guys were all in their 40s & -50s and 60s at that time ,they had all been hunting for decades,
    all but one of those "old geezers' were using a 760 rem slide action or bolt action 30/06 rifles,
    (the sporters based on the 1917 Endfield and mod 70 win were revered,) most of them used 180 grain or 220 grain round nose bullets,
    these geezers stressed, the importance of learning to having the skill to drop into a sitting position with proper use of a rifle sling and being consistently able to place shots on a 3" orange dot at 100 yards,
    they also explained trajectory, and strongly suggested sighting into hit 3.5" high at 100 yards, so range estimation was not extremely critical.
    they also suggested learning to shoot skeet, because hunting in the thick timber might require shooting off-hand at closer ranges.
    as that was what too a man they had found to be very effective, so on their advise I purchased and used a 760 rem on my first three hunts.
    ( could not locate a 1917 Endfield)
    those were exciting times and these guys did a great deal to get me up too speed on learning where to look for elk,
    how to find them and how to dress out and care for and transport the meat once the deer and elk we shot, were down.
    now I read every hunting article and magazine, I could find at the time ,
    if your my age you might remember the 7mm mag and 300 win mag both came out in about 1963,all the magazines were full of articles promoting the
    pre 1964 winchester bolt guns and lamenting the crappy new Winchesters, the fairly new remington 700 rifles were heavily advertised.
    but at about the same time frame the 340 weatherby in the mark V rifle was being heavily promoted
    being young I read everything I could find and became convinced, I really needed to spend about 2 months pay and buy a weatherby 340 mag.
    It took me over a year to save up and get one.
    now looking back, and thinking about the results, the 340 wby worked and continues to work exceptionally well, but every deer or elk I shot,
    with my 30/06 was just as dead, and in either case a single well placed shot was lethal.
    the difference was that if I hit an elk with a 30/06 , well mostly they looked like they just were startled and ran, a few steps then fell,
    hit in a similar location with the 340,wby few ran, most fell or stood as if dazed then slowly collapsed, few ran, while both were lethal, there was an obvious difference in the initial , reaction to a well placed shot.
    over the following decades while watching many dozens of guys kill deer and elk,
    it became obvious to me that the rifle and caliber ,the guy carried was far less important that the skill and experience of the guy using it.
    especially after watching the older guys, and newer members of the group, use everything from a 257 roberts and 6.5mm swedish mauser to a 45/70 and 458 win,
    and even rather less popular calibers, for elk and mule deer, like a 44 mag marlin lever action, and 35 rem.
    all worked if the guy using it was a good shot!
    we have all spent time in rather senseless debates, about what rifle caliber or bullet weight is better, or what rifle design or action type is best.
    we all are convinced our choices are the best ones, and everyone else is making a mistake,
    after watching guys in our hunt club over decades, its all too obvious too me at least that its not the rifle or cartridge selected as much as the,
    skill and experience of the guy who is using it that maters.

    I've watched one guys dad who is even older than I am convincingly kill several elk with a 257 Roberts with a single shot each time.
    I've come to really like using a 340 wby, 375 H&H, and 450 marlin, I can,t remember needing a second shot in 4 decades,
    most of the guys think I'm a bit odd, and most use as they always have, a 308 win, 30/06 or 35 whelen.
    a few guys like the 358 win, those are by far the more popular choices.....
    Originally I was sure my rifle choices made a huge improvement, and for me it instills 100% confidence.
    but it does not seem to make a bit of difference... what does make a difference is attitude and persistence!
    If anyone really paid any real attention, its been obvious, for decades,
    its the guys who are willing to get their butts up and out of camp, and spend every available minute of daylight out in the field,
    the guys who spend off season weekends at the range,
    and guys that buy and bring topo maps and aerial photos of the areas we hunt,to camp,
    the guys who are willing to keep in decent physical condition,rather than try to get back in shape the week before,
    we take the trip out west, that are consistently more successful.
    Im certainly not suggesting a 30/30 and a 340 wby have similar power or range,
    but in the hands of a skilled hunter, who knows his rifles limitations, and selected it,
    and is willing to work with-in that equipment's limitations,
    either choice, works well.
    read these related threads
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019 at 11:42 AM
  2. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

  3. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    you can read several dozen similar links and theres a good many opinions , but the rather common thread running through most of them is that you carry an elk rifle over a whole lot of typically difficult and steep terrain,so having a reasonably light weight and short and easy to handle (carbine) rifle has some advantages. and you might only get one or two shots at game a season and they damn well better be effective, and you need confidence in both your ability to hit where you aim and the results you can expect from a well placed hit!
    naturally you need to be in good physical shape personally and have the skill to use the rifle quickly when the opertunity arrives.
    everyone makes a compromise in several areas when sellecting an elk rifle and cartridge, combo, but I can tell you that over decades the 35 whelen, and 358 win cartridges and the remington 7600 pump and browning BLR both have srtrong support in the group of hunters I hunt with.
    thats not saying my 375 H&H, and 340 wby mag caliber rifles have not been very successful ,nor has anyone found various 30/06,308 win, 450 marlin,or 45/70 rifles lacking in any way.
    over 4 decades I think it was use of, or lack of ,quality optics and scope mounts that had a bigger effect on results than the head stamp on any cartridge used.
    and certainly factors many guys ignored like having decent quality boots with good traction, or a sling and comfortable back pack too pack out meat, certainly effected hunts.
    IVE never yet had a properly installed weaver style base and rings fail, loc-tite on clean de-greased, and properly tightened, screw threads helps

    a 150/400 watt gun makes soldering much easier


    BTW red loc-tite is a thermally sensitive bonding agent,
    if you need to remove scope mount screws, or any screw locked in place with this thread binding agent, that were locked in place with red loc-tite simply hold a high wattage soldering iron firmly against the screw head for at least 2 minutes before you try to remove it, this allows heat to travel through the screw and melt the bonding plastic based locking agent
    stop and think a bit about both your rifle and cartridge selection and what type of terrain and the likely ranges and the game you may be hunting,
    If your sneaking through heavy timber and hunting elk where your very unlikely to get a shot at over 70-100 yards, but might have less than 3-4 seconds to take a shot, something like a browning BLR in a cartridge like 358 win or 450 marlin, or a BAR semi-auto in 30/06-300 win or 338 mag, with a 2x-7x scope or 4x scope makes a damn good combo,you,ll be carrying that rifle and covering a lot of terrain, but a rapid shot at closer ranges is common.
    if your hunting mule deer in sage brush and oak flats a 270 win or 7mm mag , 300 mag in a bolt action, single shot, falling block, with a bi-pod rest, might suit your needs well
    you might need long range accuracy and speed of acquiring a target or making a second shot, will be less critical, a scope with a 3x -9x- or-4x-12x with a 50mm lenses may make perfect sense
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    I got asked if I was using a 300 win mag , if I would select a 150 grain bullet for its flat trajectory and high velocity, or something a bit heavier, and the questioner admitted he was thinking primarily,
    about hunting mule deer and elk, and he doubted he would ever take a shot exceeding 300 yards.
    most of us have read through dozens of threads concerning the best rifle, cartridge or bullet selection, most people try to promote or defend their personal favorite's
    few people stop to look at things from the view point of using ballistics and related math or bother to think through realistically the ranges the effect on game, their choices will have.
    most people fail to realize that most game is not that hard to kill given good shot placement and a knowledge of the games anatomy, nor do they consider the fact that far more game,
    is killed at well under 250 yards than at greater ranges.
    theres not a game animal in north America that a 270 win or a 30/06 won,t kill with a single well placed shot, if a fairly heavy well designed bullet is used by a rifleman familiar with the games anatomy.
    that does not necessarily suggest they are ideal, universal choices, simply because their effective use is dependent on getting the ideal or close to ideal shot angles to allow the vitals to be penetrated and destroyed.
    those of us with extensive experience generally tend to have seen enough game shot to appreciate the fact that heavier for bore size projectiles do tend to penetrate deeper.
    theres not a deer or elk on the planet that could survive a well placed shot from a 165-210 grain 30 caliber bullet from a 300 mag from a broad side , heart/lung impact.
    but if your only shots a raking angle through a ham,
    through the gut and into the heart/lung, vitals its going to require extremely good penetration, and increased inertial mass, and a thick jacket allow that.
    theres a good reason many country's suggest a minimum caliber for large game, larger bore mandate more massive projectiles,
    and the increased mass and resulting retained inertia energy insure a bit more penetration, on impact.
    most hunters are not as good of shots as they imagine themselves to be under field conditions. you can make a good deal of money betting the average guy can,t hit a coke can at 150 yards on his first shot,
    shooting off hand or even sitting, and theres no bench rests in the field ,, those tight 1" 100 yard groups shot from a bench rest are meaningless ,now add a shot of Adrenalin,
    when that hunter has seen an exceptional trophy, and hes breathing hard from walking over rolling terrain , and its a damn near sure bet,
    he won,t hit within 3 inches of his intended point of impact.
    Given the true conditions, and you have no control over the shot angle,
    and that game will tend to run away from a threat,leaving you with a less than ideal shot angle,
    it's frequently an advantage to select a slightly heavier 180 grain-210 grain projectile weight in a 300 mag!/
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  5. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    BTW, one of the guys I hunted with for decades used a 7mm rem mag , he used various bullet weights from 150-175 and was not all that thrilled with the rifles power or his results,
    he was rather convinced the rifle lacked knock down power (it certainly did not lack power or accuracy)
    as he has consistently shot 1" 100 yard groups with almost all his hand loads off the bench rest, at 100 yards,
    but for about 6 years even having several opportunities on hunts to shoot elk,
    he would make a shot , while hunting, and the elk or mule deer would run off,

    we would spend an hour or so looking for evidence of a hit and come up empty.
    he was convinced he was a great shot,but I never once saw him practice shooting anyplace but on the bench.
    well, one year after missing a standing elk at only 200 yards ,with several of us watching,
    he became convinced his scope must have shifted zero.
    I had a few orange sticky dots in the truck, and a sheet of cardboard we leaned up against a steep hillside,
    we backed off 200 yards to duplicate the distance, and he tried several shots.....he totally missed the cardboard backer, that was about 18" square,
    convincing him the scope zero had changed, but before he started changing the scope adjustment,
    I suggested another hunter in our group try a couple shots......both shots impacted about where we had sighted in the rifle,
    about 1" high at that range, I then tried 2 shots, and my bullets impacted well inside of 3-4 inchs of the orange dot also.
    I suggested he try a couple more shots, (but purposelessly made sure the chamber was empty)
    the reason he missed, was obvious to everyone, he had a flinch you would think he developed from using a 458 mag!
    he always used a 25 lb bag of lead shot behind the rifle butt on the bench, but subconsciously , he knew that without the bag the rifles recoil was much more noticeable
    no it was not abusive, but he still flinched like it was a 458 win with a solid steel butt plate,
    it took months for him to admit he needed practice and once he found he could use a PAST recoil pad in a shooting vest
    his field accuracy greatly improved
  6. T-Test

    T-Test Well-Known Member

    He is not a trained shooter and is afraid of high caliber rifles or to old/soft shouldered to shoot such. They say --practice makes perfect--I say perfect practice makes perfect-- and you can't be afraid of what you are shooting or you will always miss.
  7. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    hunters as a group have a wide and varied potential selection of weapons, and calibers in rifles too check out,
    I think most of us spend far too much effort debating minor inconsequential differences. and we all find a personal favorite,
    its rather rare, for joe average, too select a rifle or caliber that , is not going to function at a basic level,and kill anything thats hit well.
    a bit like selecting a wife, theres basic and enhanced versions, some are far more expensive ,durable and tolerant than others,
    but most guys will if its carefully checked out before the purchase, find they function as you might expect.
    when I started hunting back in the mid 1960s 7mm and 30 cal, magnums were all the rage, in the magazines.
    most of the guys I hunted with tried them, .....some guys liked them,..... most went back to using the 270 win,30/06 and similar rifles their dads had used.
    for decades I generally kept a remington 760 or a savage bolt action, 30/06,or marlin 45/70 in camp as a loaner rifle,
    I doubt the results would change in any way if the rifles were 25/06 or 7mm mausers.
    guys would use it if they damaged their rifles or scopes, those rifles collected an impressive list of game over decades
    guys using them used the matching ammo available, with those rifles, they worked even in the hands of guys barely familiar with how they functioned,
    \ or their trajectory, mostly because, most game is shot at well under 150 yards,
    and most game,(even elk) won,t go far with a shot through the heart/lung area,
    from a rifle that punches deep into the vitals.
    I always have to smile a bit when I see these threads, if your asked to make a suggestion, regarding selection of any type of equipment,
    its mandatory that the person asking for advise, provide the rather more experienced person(s) he is asking with ALL the perimeters and legal limitations,based
    on the area and terrain being hunted, the game, being hunted, and likely range limitations.
    obviously if the area your hunting is limited to a shot gun, or strait wall cartridge or if theres game department caliber or muzzle energy limits, caliber minimums etc.
    those limits must be stated for the advise to be a reasonable match to the intended usage, and area.
    most of us have several favorites in rifles and calibers, or your recoil tolerance,
    but I could no more select the rifle and caliber that best matches your anticipated needs best,
    than I could anticipate your , choice in a wife.
    yes there are dozens of well, proven combos, most are fully functional in most areas, under most common conditions and ranges.
    and its the skill and confidence and experience of the guy using the rifle that tends to mater more than the rifle or caliber selected, in many cases.
    I hunted with many guys than own and hunt with several different rifles, and two guys Ive hunted with for decades have stuck with two rather different rifles
    (a 358 win BLR and a single shot ruger #1 in 270 win) both have long records of successful hunts
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  8. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    no thats not my rifle but its damn near its clone
    how many of you gentlemen have and use a bi-pod on your rifle?
    Ive used the 13.5" /27" swivel bi-pod for decades on my 340 wby synthetic bolt action, rifle.
    the bi-pod allows you to have a steady rifle rest shot from both a prone or seated position,
    now I'm sure I'm in the minority and many guys will object to the added weight , but I've learned to hunt by glassing and covering a great deal of ground slowly,
    the key here is in carefully selecting the areas hunted and not randomly wandering aimlessly.
    you want to study topographical maps carefully, and have experience, you can look over the options, get into productive areas well before other hunters and set up, before first light, allowing you to benefit from the influx p o hunter pressure as they move through the are disrupting game movement, and increase your odds of success by hunting ,
    natural travel routes and terrain choke points, and not wasting time glassing the areas with lots off easy road access.
    elk and deer learn very quickly that travel, during daylight, near logging roads with vehicle travel access , is not safe.
    if you set up to glass for game on a natural game travel choke point , like a narrow side canyon, that has a creek and cover youll up your odds significantly.
    having a bi-pod on your rifle and a good familiarity with your rifles trajectory sure helps.
    • [​IMG]
    Click image to open expanded view

    HB25CS 25C Model S -13.5-27" Swivel Bipod
    by Harris Engineering
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  9. rlphvac

    rlphvac reliable source of info

    Grumpy this year I used my Tikka 25.06 in deer season and shot a nice big horned 7 point buck I used a Hornaday 117 grain interlock bullet at around 80 to 100 yards its the first deer that I've ever shot that dropped on the spot.
    Now I've had good hits on a good many deer in what I thought was the sweet spot with bigger calibers and much heavier loads 300 mag 180 gr. 30.06 180 gr. and other different loads from a 308 , 7mm Mag , 7mm.08 , 30.30 and they all dropped in a short distance but not instantly so I had to hit this one pretty close to perfect because this was the smallest caliber and the lightest load I ever used and the deer that went the furthest was hit with the most powerful gun 300 Win Mag and the heaviest load 180 gr. so another vote for shot placement
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2019
  10. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    yes proper shot placement is critical, but many people fail to grasp the two concepts of hydro-static,
    shock,that results from a fast expanding projectile, that shocks the games nervous system,
    as the energy rapidly almost instantly expands , like a balloon full of liquid expanding,
    and the need for deep penetration, are both very desirable, but these properties are somewhat counter intuitive ,
    in that a fast expanding high velocity bullet tends to have more limited penetration ,
    and a deep penetrating projectile tends to expand slowly. you need a balance in the two properties,
    but both the game your shootings size, a knowledge of that games internal anatomy and the projectiles impact velocity
    effect the resulting damage.
    deer being rather fragile internally, do not require near the penetration that something like an elk does.

    Ive had excellent results with a 25/06 using 100 grain speer bullets Remington&Weight=100&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
    try 53 grains of imr 4831 Winchester&Weight=150&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
    try 55 grains of imr 4831 but work up slowly thats near max
    and 270 win using speer 150 grain,

    these are both proven on deer but not ideal for elk, for elk a slower expanding and deeper penetrating projectile is generally preferred, because you can,t always get the ideal shot angles

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